Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings

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Let's see: I don't play Doubles but, what's the point of reducing the viability list from 130 to 67 Pokemon?


Changes: Create a Tier 0 (equivalent to S rank) and at least include Mega Kangaskhan on it.

Create a Tier 3.5 and Tier 4 with a lot of niche Pokemon.

Move Togekiss from Tier 2.5 to at least Tier 1.5. Togekiss has Follow Me, great defenses, Fairy typing and enough offensive movepool to go higher. Losing agaisnt Mega Diancie is not enough to warrant such a drop.

At least put Mega Mawile (it's A rank in the old thread), Mega Latias (A- in the other thread), Chandelure (B+ in the older thread), Conkeldurr (B+ in the older thread), Escavalier (B+ in the older thread), Mega Gyarados (B+ rank in the older thread), Mega Scizor (B+ in the older thread), Aerodactyl (B rank), Aromatisse (B rank), Mega Charizard X (B rank), Excadrill (B rank), Mega Gallade (B rank), Slowbro (B rank), Tyranitar (B rank), Mega Altaria, Goodra, Gourgeist-S, Klefki, Mega Sceptile (all fot hem B- rank). Some of them should be at least on Tier 3, specially the ones posted in bold.

And no... Pokemon in lower B and C ranks are viable and should be on the list. That for someone is not the first choice when making a team 8understandable given that those Pokemon are mainly niche Pokemon) doesn't mean they aren't completely unviable and should never be used on a serious team.

And I'm sure the way to compare Pokemon has to include match-ups in all the Top Tiers. When in OU a nomination is made for certain Pokemon, what usually counts is the performance against (at least) S, A+ and A rank. Sometimes even performance with Pokemon in A- and B+.
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
I'm thinking about getting into doubles (probably when the next B101 round starts, since a tutor would be really helpful), and I know I'm going to use this thread a lot as I do for any meta I play. As such I want to make sure I understand this correctly. Bear in mind I'm going to use examples, but they may not be completely accurate since I don't know the tier yet. Also, I'm using a scale of Great > Good > Decent > Bad, for whatever reason my brain decided it likes that organizational hierarchy.

Tier 1 is for Pokemon which are always great.

Tier 1.5 is for Pokemon which are either 1) nearly always good, but great against some teams (Ex: Bisharp vs. TR), or 2) nearly always great, except bad against some teams (Ex: Heatran vs. Rain).

Tier 2 section one is for Pokemon which are always great, but only on specific teamstyles (Ex: Mega Camerupt on TR, Suicune on Tailwind, Venusaur on Sun, Ludicolo on Rain).

Tier 2 section two is for Pokemon which are good (on most teamstyles), but never great.

Tier 3 is for Pokemon which are either 1) always good, but never great, on specific teamstyles (Ex: Zapdos on Tailwind), or 2) decent (on most teamstyles), but never good (Ex: Garchomp? Genesect?).

This explains how Pokemon which are the faces of various teamstyles make it into Tier 1 or 2. Char Y and Skymin might be the face of Sun and Tailwind respectively, but they can also be used as standalone threats. Politoed and Suicune are similarly essential to their teamstyles, but the don't work outside of those.

To conclude, I have a few questions:

1) Do I understand this correctly?
pretty much. To clarify, Skymin's not the face of tailwind, it usually just runs three attacks. The 'faces of tailwind' are Talon and Cune mostly, though most Dragons can run it as well. You kind of misunderstand Tier 3, it's often for Pokemon which are often outclassed but have specific traits you might want (e.g. Chomp is basically a worse Lando-T except for its ability to beat Zard, Kingdra is a worse Ludicolo except that it can stay in on Talonflame and Kangaskhan and gets a spread move).

2) Assuming I do, there appears to be a sort of split inherent in the lower tiers of the list: Pokemon which are great/good but only on specific teamstyles, and Pokemon which are good/decent in general. This is evidenced by the two sections of Tier 2. Why isn't Tier 3 similarly split into two sections?
didnt really see the need, guess it could be but i kind of thought tier 3 wasnt entirely worth bothering with. Also it's less clear which pokes belong where in a lot of cases

3) What exactly makes Deo-A, MGengar, Mew, and Azumarill fit into the category for Pokemon which are teamstyle specific? Is it some special kind of support they need, or do they only fit on a specific teamstyle and I'm just unaware at what teamstyle that is?
gar requires a team built to abuse it more or less, same with Azu and Mew (whose only great set is Transform), Deo-A only fits on HO.


These answers aren't perfect either because nothing can be perfect, but I hope I helped.

Sage Old 2014er said:
what's the point of reducing the viability list from 130 to 67 Pokemon?
no point in bloat when this already nearly comprehensively covers any pokemon that deserves to get >1% usage. The bloat was getting in the way, and it was full of Pokemon which were being fanboyed by a single person into B rank
Changes: Create a Tier 0 (equivalent to S rank) and at least include Mega Kangaskhan on it.
I don't play Doubles
it's not nearly that good
Create a Tier 3.5 and Tier 4 with a lot of niche Pokemon.
why bother? This isnt a list of every pokemon you can use in doubles, its a list of pokemon that you need to check
Move Togekiss from Tier 2.5 to at least Tier 1.5. Togekiss has Follow Me, great defenses, Fairy typing and enough offensive movepool to go higher. Losing agaisnt Mega Diancie is not enough to warrant such a drop.
I don't play Doubles
also it's not tier 2.5, it's just tier 2, parallel to the other list
At least put Mega Mawile (it's A rank in the old thread), Mega Latias (A- in the other thread), Chandelure (B+ in the older thread), Conkeldurr (B+ in the older thread), Escavalier (B+ in the older thread), Mega Gyarados (B+ rank in the older thread), Mega Scizor (B+ in the older thread), Aerodactyl (B rank), Aromatisse (B rank), Mega Charizard X (B rank), Excadrill (B rank), Mega Gallade (B rank), Slowbro (B rank), Tyranitar (B rank), Mega Altaria, Goodra, Gourgeist-S, Klefki, Mega Sceptile (all fot hem B- rank). Some of them should be at least on Tier 3, specially the ones posted in bold.
I don't play Doubles
And no... Pokemon in lower B and C ranks are viable and should be on the list. That for someone is not the first choice when making a team 8understandable given that those Pokemon are mainly niche Pokemon) doesn't mean they aren't completely unviable and should never be used on a serious team.
never said they should, unless their name is tyranitar or scizor. i have made serious teams with Pokemon not on this list, but, spoiler alert, i always ended up dropping those pokemon for things that ARE on this list, cuz the other ones have extremely niche to zero viability and thus it's a waste of time to list them.
 
I actually really, really like this new style. Although, I do think that there should be a threatlist along with it, so people get their priorities right when building (i.e. so people don't think that their M-Kang weak team is fine).

There are also a lot of viable Pokemon that are missing. I'm not talking about the Pokemon you mentioned that only got onto the tierlist in the first place was theorymonning - I'm talking about threats like MMaw, though this point has been brought up a lot already.
(IMHO I'd lobby for MMaw in 1 or 1.5, but I'd be fine with it in 2, since it's a monster in TR, semiTR, and even TW)
 

Arcticblast

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I'd honestly rather put Mawile in Tier 3. It's absurdly powerful, but this meta is not very kind to it. There are a ton of Fire-types that resist both of its STABs and often carry a non-damaging move to mess with Sucker Punch (aside from Zard), and popular Pokemon that can just take a Sucker and do huge damage back like Keldeo, Mega Disncie, Hydreigon, and WP Aegislash are very common. Under Trick Room it's more potent but then it's cockblocked by Amoonguss, which nobody wants to deal with. It also has some difficulties getting on the battlefield despite its amazing typing; Intimidate pre-evo doesn't make up for an utter inability to take Special attacks.
 
Wait are Mega Camerupt and Mega Abomasnow actually more viable than Tyranitar and Scizor?? What happened? If they are just not on the list because Terrakion and Metagross are better then why are Lucario and Rhydon/Rhyperior on there?

I actually agree with Stratos on the Hitmontop thing. I've never really liked Gen 6 top. His only niche over Scrafty is support movepool, but he is a black hole sucking away momentum after the first turn or two that he is left on the field. Close Combat used to be a HUGE niche when Fighting Gem was a thing a gajillion years ago.
 
Hey, you know what's a really cute Pokemon?



This lil' guy right here. Ain't it cute? Hell yeah! But enough about that, I want to talk about it's more evolved counterpart, Chandelure, and how it deserves to be around Tier 3... or maybe Tier 2.5??? I dunno.



Let's see what's so good about about Chandelure in the Doubles metagame:

+ It has a super cool niche in being the only other Trick Room setter that also has an actual offensive presence (aside from CM Cress) thanks to its beastly 145 Sp.A base stat and having access to Fire/Ghost STAB
+ As a Trick Room setter, it benefits from being a Ghost type, so it can't get Fake Out'd unless Scrappy Kanga delays her mega-evolution.
+ An Overheat from this thing can reliably OHKO 252 HP Shield Aegislash
+ Cool Fire-Type switch-in due to Flash Fire
+... uhhh I think that's it for now.

However though, the reason why I'm nominating this to Tier 3 and not above is due to a number of factors that go against it, here's a couple:

- Gets obliterated by a bunch of Pokemon in the upper tiers. Here's a bunch below:


- Bopped by Lando-T's Earthquake/Rock Slide
- Diamond Storm tears it apart
- Hydreigon completely walls it and takes it out with a Dark Pulse
- Keldeo can clean it up with a Hydro Pump
- so does Rotom-Wash and Chandy can't do anything about it
- A Sucker Punch from a Bisharp has a good chance of OHKOing it (around 70%ish)
- Heatran existing :(
- and I guess a few more 'mons that I didn't mention

- It's defences are pitiful (60/90/90 is pretty bad)
- It's in a weird speed tier (80) where even in Trick Room, it's not the slowest thing around.

I would really appreciate it if anyone wants to add anything else, or more importantly, corrects anything in my opening statement. For now, I feel that Tier 3 seems to be where it should be, since it does fill the criteria of filling in as a niche pick for Trick Room starters and is pretty damn hard to fit in a team.
 
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Stratos

Banned deucer.
OK, the first round of votes are in! These are the results: (All votes in the order myself, TOTEM, Laga, finally, Arcticblast)

Clefairy: Tier 3
Clefairy: 3 It's just Clefable basically, and it's done work in the matches it was used in, but a sample size of 3 games is pretty small to be putting something in Tier 2 over and besides Clefable is right on the border between 2 and 3 itself.

Clefairy -> 3 - Makes sense, works alongside some mons in some matchups but is p easy to overwhelm and has p much 0 offensive presence

Clefairy -> 3 - reasons already stated. It only works in some matchups and on some teams.

Clefairy from 2 -> 3 yeah clef is medium

Clefairy from 2 -> 3 Yes - Its only niche over better Follow Me users like Jirachi and Amoonguss (and... Togekiss?) is Friend Guard. Beyond that it's really passive outside of Wide-Distribution-Helping-Hand and pretty prone to Knock Off.

Zapdos: Tier 3
Zapdos: 3 It doesn't hit very hard, so it's more or less fodder for things like Kang and Cube. It doesn't have enough relevant resists to make up for this fact.

Zapdos -> 3 - Only fits on TWind (which isn't a fantastic type of build imo) generally outclassed by thund for offense/support or rotom-w as a defensive electric

Zapdos: 3 - underwhelming, Thundy has better utility with same resists, and tailwind mirroring will usually put the Zapdos user in more trouble than the opponent.

Zapdos stay in 3 nah, its not that good. its like thundy without taunt

Zapdos from 3 -> 2 Abstain - I've personally had Zapdos do really damn well at times and really bad at others. It might just be team specific (although Raikou's never let me down!) but I'm going to hold off on this one.

Diancie: Tier 3
Diancie: Abstain Laga and Arcticblast have used it on semi TR before but tbh that was a while ago so IDK if it's still effective there.

Diancie -> 3 - Reg Diancie is a tough semi-tr mon to use you'd typically use cress but this works because rock type is rare on tr + it's p handy at +2 +2 after WP

Diancie -> 3 - specific indeed. Fits very well on some TR builds, so it's a tough call.

Diancie stay in 2 i think its a pretty relevant tr setter, its just risky

Diancie from 2 -> 3 Yes - I don't want to say it's "niche" but it's not that worthy of Tier 2. Common weaknesses make it difficult to switch in, and while its Mega has the same problem, the Mega makes up for it with a base 110 Speed tier and way more power without relying on IT setting Trick Room.

Conkeldurr: Tier 3
Conkeldurr: 3 Hits a lot harder than Scrafty, but Fake Out is so hard to give up on full TR, and there's no good FOer that works on TR other than Scrafty and maybe Kang. Would never recommend on non-TR, dies way too easy.

Conkeldurr - 2 - on merit of iron fist LO, hits hard enough to hold it's own in TR also has good coverage and decent bulk who burns a conk anyway

Conkeldurr -> 3 - yas

Conkeldurr 3 this is a shit mon, put it in 3

Conkeldurr Tier 3 - it's good enough imo

Escavalier: Tier 3
Escavalier: Please Don't Basically what I said in the thread, Escav cant actually switch into shit which is disappointing when youre a """bulky""" steel, also hes forced out by a lot.

Escavalier - 3 - Overcoat is nice but it's really easy to switch in to and doesn't really do enough damage to justify it's use, also isnt that bulky even with av

Escavalier -> 3 - this thing is still legit on TR and rain, I haven't lost trust. I'd say LO works much better these days tho.

Escavalier 3 same

Escavalier Tier 3 - see Conk, also nice on TR for being an Amoonguss switchin that isn't Amoonguss or fucked by Trick / Knock Off / Magic Room (lol) and bulky

Hitmontop: Please Don't
Hitmontop: Please Don't FO/Feint mind games are literally the only thing this Pokemon provides to a team, but after the first turn it's out it turns into a dead weight. Like with Tyranitar, I don't expect to win the vote on this one now but in three months people will have come around to it.

Hitmontop -> - I really wanted to say 3 but i have never put this thing on an ORAS team and don't see any point in doing so

Hitmontop -> 3 - I nommed, think I gave good enough reasoning there.

Hitmontop stay in don't this is a shit mon

Hitmontop from Don't -> 3 Yes - basically what Laga said in the VR thread. Don't feel like restating it.

Mawile: Tier 3
Mawile: Please Don't Theres always a better mega IMO. Its two purported niches are on Rain and TR, but in both cases it sucks to be using a mega so thoroughly fucked by Amoonguss. Metagross pretty much just outclasses Mawile entirely.

Mawile -> 3 - Holds its own vs some top threats and sucker makes up for lacking speed to some extent

Mawile -> Don't - yeah Mega Metagross is better than it every time, unless trick room, in which case camerupt/aboma are better attackers on respective TR builds. If it's Semi TR, your mega should probably be a fast, hard-hitting one.

Mawile move to 3, testing it right now with gyarados. has good typing and big guns.

Mawile Tier 3 - Mega Mawile is super duper fucking strong but really hard to get into battle and usually outclassed by Metagross. I'd say its sheer power, Fairy typing, and incredible matchup against Kangaskhan give it a place in Tier 3.

MDiancie: Tier 1
MDiancie: 1 One of the two or three most generally threatening offensive Pokemon in the tier; it's not hard to get Diancie in safely, especially with redirection support, and once it's in it's going to be taking huge chunks out of things. It's frail, but that flaw is easy to overlook cuz it hits everything so damn hard.

MDiancie -> 1 - Beats a lot of top threats, really fucking hard to switch in on, rock is a useful typing, resists a lot of priority

MDiancie: 1 - This thing kicks ass who tf doubted it

MDiancie stay in 1. when i teambuild i do a checklist: kanga, mega diancie, landorus-t, mega metagross. mdiancie is a mssive threat imo

MDiancie from 1 -> 1.5 No - this monster is why the meta is so centralized lol, great Speed tier + good Rock STAB + naturally mixed attacker + Magic Bounce = really good

Reuniclus: Tier 3
Reuniclus: 3 Its the best purely offensive TR setter, it can run life orb and still get the benefits of safety goggles, and life orbed attacks from 125 SpA hurt like a motherfucker.

Reuniclus -> 3 - Overcoat + item is nice for a TR setter and it can set up in the face of heavy hitters

Reuniclus: 3 - I'm giving this thing the benefit of the doubt because of how good of an offensive setter it is on paper. Unfortunately haven't used it in ORAS yet

Reuniclus from 3 -> Unranked sure

Reuniclus from 3 -> Unranked Abstain - I haven't seen much of it outside of like two seasonal matches

Hydreigon: Tier 1.5
Hydreigon: 1 See my argument in the thread. (tbh ive changed my mind since this lol, I think it should be 1.5 as well)

Hydreigon -> 1.5 - CM cress isnt enough to justify this going to 1, dark is poor defensively and its slower than deers and many megas that beat it

Hydreigon: 1.5 - It really isn't that good

Hydreigon stay in 1.5 it's slow

Hydreigon from 1.5 -> 1 Yes - good matchup against a lot of the most splashable Pokemon in the metagame (Aegislash, Rotom-A, Amoonguss, Cresselia, Heatran) and has oodles of power for pretty much anything else, and its relatively few good switchins make it a huge threat when it hits the field. Slight element of unpredictability in the last slot (Fire Blast? Earth Power? Roost? Tailwind?) although this can sometimes be determined at team preview

Chandelure: Unranked
Chandelure: Unranked Basically the only real argument for ranking Chandelure was that it could bust up Aegislash (or Amoonguss, I guess) with an Overheat, but it can only do that when TR isn't up, which is awkward. Jelli's better as a ghost setter in general. Would never recommend Chandelure for non-TR roles, it's just way too easy to break Sub's sub and honestly it doesn't hit too hard. Got no use in SPL for a reason IMO. Still, good enough that it probably doesnt deserve Please Don't.

Chandelure -> 0 - It's kinda terrible i guess :^0

Chandelure -> irrelevant

Chandelure unranked. i mean just use infernape tr qB^)

Chandelure Tier 3 - strong but rather niche; being a Ghost TR setter isn't too bad and you murder Sun too


I'm about to update the OP to reflect these changes. Feel free to discuss more things!
 
Id like to nominate ferrothorn for tier 1.5.

Basically, this poke has good matchups vs a lot of the tier 1.5 and 1 pokes, as well as a lot of playstyles (rain tr twind) and i feel it fits the tier 1.5 description a lot better than tier 2.

Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be dead weight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1, or are only particularly useful for checking a certain team style.
Ferrothorn is generally strong, power whip hits hard, gyro ball even harder vs speedy pokes.

Can be dead weight in some matchups, like possibly sun, but even then ferro walls venusaur very hard.

It actually has good matchups vs quite a bit of tier 1, 1.5 and 2:

can take a couple of hits from aegi, but cant do much back bar leech seed.
Takes absolutely 0 from any of amoonguss attacks, but gyro only does a little bit.
loses
takes no damage from all non hp fire variants, but again, power whip and leech seed only do about 30-35% per turn.
beats all the time
beats a lot of the time as power up punch is quite weak and gyro + leech seed does a lot
cant switch in, but can take a secret sword and ko back with power whip
beats a lot of the time, superpower just doesnt do enough and gets weaker each time
most ferros are evs to ohko rotom w with power whip aftee tanking the will o wisp
beats bar 5/6 air slash flinches in a row
>>Tier 1.5<<

beats because after the first knock off, bisharp doesnt hit hard enough and take 12.5% each hit
loses
beats the non fire blast ones
beats because jirachi cant hit back
beats because ice beam isnt strong enough and gyro ball has enough pp to stall out the 5 subs kyu b can make
beats all twind/ hp ground ones, but loses to hp fire
beats if they dont have hammer arm
loses
can take a cc but cant switxh in on terrak
beats, gyro ball hits hard and if they dont taunt you, leech seed is nice
>>Tier 2<<
beats
beats
loses
cant beat hp fire ones, but beats superpower ones
wins if ferro has leech seed, gyro ball hurts
beats
can beat, but ferro doesnt really hit hard enough to beat mew reliably
beats
beats

So you can see it beats half of tier 1 reliably, while having decent matchups against most of tier 1.5 and 2.

It also has very good matchups vs rain, tailwind and trick room, doubling up as a sleep counter and fairy wall.
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Id like to nominate ferrothorn for tier 1.5.

Basically, this poke has good matchups vs a lot of the tier 1.5 and 1 pokes, as well as a lot of playstyles (rain tr twind) and i feel it fits the tier 1.5 description a lot better than tier 2.



Ferrothorn is generally strong, power whip hits hard, gyro ball even harder vs speedy pokes.

Can be dead weight in some matchups, like possibly sun, but even then ferro walls venusaur very hard.

It actually has good matchups vs quite a bit of tier 1, 1.5 and 2:

can take a couple of hits from aegi, but cant do much back bar leech seed.
Takes absolutely 0 from any of amoonguss attacks, but gyro only does a little bit.
loses
takes no damage from all non hp fire variants, but again, power whip and leech seed only do about 30-35% per turn.
beats all the time
beats a lot of the time as power up punch is quite weak and gyro + leech seed does a lot
cant switch in, but can take a secret sword and ko back with power whip
beats a lot of the time, superpower just doesnt do enough and gets weaker each time
most ferros are evs to ohko rotom w with power whip aftee tanking the will o wisp
beats bar 5/6 air slash flinches in a row
>>Tier 1.5<<

beats because after the first knock off, bisharp doesnt hit hard enough and take 12.5% each hit
loses
beats the non fire blast ones
beats because jirachi cant hit back
beats because ice beam isnt strong enough and gyro ball has enough pp to stall out the 5 subs kyu b can make
beats all twind/ hp ground ones, but loses to hp fire
beats if they dont have hammer arm
loses
can take a cc but cant switxh in on terrak
beats, gyro ball hits hard and if they dont taunt you, leech seed is nice
>>Tier 2<<
beats
beats
loses
cant beat hp fire ones, but beats superpower ones
wins if ferro has leech seed, gyro ball hurts
beats
can beat, but ferro doesnt really hit hard enough to beat mew reliably
beats
beats

So you can see it beats half of tier 1 reliably, while having decent matchups against most of tier 1.5 and 2.

It also has very good matchups vs rain, tailwind and trick room, doubling up as a sleep counter and fairy wall.
The problem with ferro isn't what it does poorly/well against but rather the huge amount of competition it suffers from amoonguss who checks relatively similar things (the only thing I can think of atm that ferro beats that AMOONG doesn't is like kanga and that's iffy as it is) but amoong provides far better team support via redirection and spore which allows it to fuck over more things more easily. Ferro also tends to be unable to beat goggles users either since the vast majority of them are used to fuck bulky grasses which conveniently ferro is. So although ferro is really good, it suffers far too much for a team slot as opposed to amoong to be worth using the majority of the time
 

Bughouse

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Id like to nominate ferrothorn for tier 1.5.

Basically, this poke has good matchups vs a lot of the tier 1.5 and 1 pokes, as well as a lot of playstyles (rain tr twind) and i feel it fits the tier 1.5 description a lot better than tier 2.



Ferrothorn is generally strong, power whip hits hard, gyro ball even harder vs speedy pokes.

Can be dead weight in some matchups, like possibly sun, but even then ferro walls venusaur very hard.

It actually has good matchups vs quite a bit of tier 1, 1.5 and 2:

can take a couple of hits from aegi, but cant do much back bar leech seed.
Takes absolutely 0 from any of amoonguss attacks, but gyro only does a little bit.
loses
takes no damage from all non hp fire variants, but again, power whip and leech seed only do about 30-35% per turn.
beats all the time
beats a lot of the time as power up punch is quite weak and gyro + leech seed does a lot
cant switch in, but can take a secret sword and ko back with power whip
beats a lot of the time, superpower just doesnt do enough and gets weaker each time
most ferros are evs to ohko rotom w with power whip aftee tanking the will o wisp
beats bar 5/6 air slash flinches in a row
>>Tier 1.5<<

beats because after the first knock off, bisharp doesnt hit hard enough and take 12.5% each hit
loses
beats the non fire blast ones
beats because jirachi cant hit back
beats because ice beam isnt strong enough and gyro ball has enough pp to stall out the 5 subs kyu b can make
beats all twind/ hp ground ones, but loses to hp fire
beats if they dont have hammer arm
loses
can take a cc but cant switxh in on terrak
beats, gyro ball hits hard and if they dont taunt you, leech seed is nice
>>Tier 2<<
beats
beats
loses
cant beat hp fire ones, but beats superpower ones
wins if ferro has leech seed, gyro ball hurts
beats
can beat, but ferro doesnt really hit hard enough to beat mew reliably
beats
beats

So you can see it beats half of tier 1 reliably, while having decent matchups against most of tier 1.5 and 2.

It also has very good matchups vs rain, tailwind and trick room, doubling up as a sleep counter and fairy wall.
Ferrothorn is one of those mons that works better on paper than in reality. It, like Aegislash, is capable of being worn down. But unlike Aegislash it doesn't have a high enough immediate damage output. It is susceptible to burns and so often runs Lum Berry, but it really would rather run Rocky Helmet or even just Lefties if it could. It's a complete momentum killer against any mon that can run Sub, like Heatran, Aegislash, or Mega Metagross. If you drop Thunder Wave due to its 4MSS (it's probably the most expendable move), you all of a sudden have waaaaaay less utility - can't TWave Ludicolo for example. Also, it's more or less useless vs sun. Finally, it doesn't even really help with TR that much as it's no help vs Mega Camerupt.

Don't get me wrong, it can be good. Ferro can win some matches even from like 1 v 4 if it's the right mons left over, like Bullet Punch MegaGross, non-Heat Wave Zapdos, non-HP Fire Latios, and Sylveon. But it's definitely matchup specific and too big of a momentum killer in the matchups that it sucks in.
 

Arcticblast

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sorry if I'm asking a stupid question but what is wrong with Scizor? It seems bulky and strong with only 1 weakness, I also really like its movepool but maybe there is something better?
Scizor is a good Pokemon in a vacuum, but it simply doesn't do well in the current metagame. Just looking at tiers 1 and 1.5, it "doesn't always lose" to only seven or eight of them, and only actually beats Cresselia and Mega Diancie. It doesn't provide the raw support that some other Pokemon like Cresselia / Scrafty / Hitmontop bring to the table either. It doesn't help that it's outclassed by Mega Metagross...
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I'd like to nominate Landorus-I to tier 1.5.

Landorus-Incarnate isn't as good as it's other forme, Landorus-Therian, but I still feel like Landorus-I is a strong Pokémon which fits the description of Tier 1.5 more than Tier 2. I feel like Landorus is able to defeat whole teams on it's own, dependant on the opponent ofcourse.
It has a limited movepool, with good moves such as Earth Power, Focus Blast (even though this isn't good), Psychic, Sludge Bomb, Hidden Power Ice and Rock Slide. You could use a physical Landorus, but there's no reason to, considering that is outclassed by Therian. It gets the same movepool as Therian does, only Incarnate uses it's special movepool somewhat more.

It's typing isn't horrible at all, making it only four times weak to Ice, and only being weak to Water. However, it only resists moves from Bug-types, Fighting-types and Poison-types, all of those aren't common attacking types anyways. The fact that he has an Electric and Ground immunity makes it somewhat better, as it can switch into Thunder Waves, Thunderbolts or Earthquakes.

The item it generally carries is Life Orb which works well with the ability it uses. Considering Sheer Force negated Life Orb damage, you get a free 1.3x damage boost to your moves, as long as you use the standard moveset. That is insanely good, and makes Landorus even more powerful.

Now to the abilities. You're going to want to use Sheer Force, basically all of the time. The other ability you get is Sand Force. That is not a bad ability but Sheer Force is much better. The only notable move that Landorus gets that gets boosted by Sand Force is Earth Power, you would be better off by simply using Sheer Force.

The offensive stats (125/115/101), are great. If you run maximum speed you can outspeed 100s all the time (obviously) and it's not a terrible speed-tier. Now it's notable that Landorus-I has a better physical attack stat than special attack stat, but again, Landorus-Therian outclassed Incarnate as physical attacker.
It does have decent amount of bulk (89/90/80), while it's obviously not going to live moves from heavy hitters, it can live a few hits from not very hard hitting Pokémon.

It's most common moveset would probably be Earth Power, Psychic, Sludge Bomb and Protect, but you could also throw Focus Blast or Hidden Power Ice in there to beat Normal-types (Mega-Kangaskhan before it kills you, which is unlikely) and other Landoruses. I made a list of the matchups Landorus-I has versus other Pokémon, based on calculations (the EVs are 252 SAtk, 252 Speed with a Modest Nature).

I made the matchups where you win green, and matchups where you lose red.
sorry for being so dumb I'll do this over again
Tier 1:
it comes with the massive opportunity cost of not having lando-t.
 

shaian

you love to see it
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you forgot Life Orb on the Aegis and Kanga calcs, you can use Rock Slide against CharY and even a - atk nature easily ohko's it (you prolly forgot lo and sheer force), and fb vs bulky kyub is like a 75% chance to ohko. tbh your argument made lando-i seem worse than it is, though i think it's firmly tier 2

edit: also why were you using modest?
 

finally

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biggest damage output possible, I use modest myself often too, but +spe might be better yea
I updated the damage calcs bc I forgot Sheer Force and Life Orb at some :I
timid is probably best for beating char
as for your diancie calc, you being faster than regular diancie forces the protect on mega diancie, so you could use that to your advantage
rock slide beats talonflame
i think the best moveset is probably earth power, hidden power ice, rock slide, protect. you dont really beat kanga anymore, but now you beat landorus-t.

perhaps the biggest thing holding landorus-i from moving up is it needs a niche to fulfill which landorus-t dosent already fill. choice scarf landorus-t checks so many of the top tier threats (diancie, metagross, charizard, kanga, itself to an extent) that perhaps we need to find a more innovative set for landorus-i to truly make it worth using over landorus-t. perhaps a rock polish set or a substitute set.
 
The best scarfer in this tier is still Golduck, Cloud Nine and Soak fuck your opponents brain just as much as facing a non floating duck.
Landorus-T just isn´t even worth using when ducks rule the sky, tier 3 at best.

Now back to more relevant things.
I haven´t seen a lot of teams that have problems with Intimidate anymore.
The few physical threats I did encounter were mostly able to overcome Intimidate spam or just too threatening to immediately switch Landorus-T or Gyarados in. Landorus T does become a bit less effective these days I feel. (It´s also somewhat the only one that cares for Intimidate?)
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Nominating Excadrill for Tier 2

Excadrill is an great Pokémon to use with quite a lot of versatility in what you could possibly run. It's movepool includes highlight moves such as Drill Run, Earthquake, Iron Head and Rock Slide. Generally if you're running Choice Scarf that is the set you're going to run. There are coverage moves such as X-Scissor, Poison Jab and Shadow Claw, but those are moves you don't really want to run.

It's Ground/Steel typing is pretty decent, as it has a lot of resistances, resisting Rock by four times. It has two immunities: Electric and Poison. While Poison isn't a common attacking move, the Electric immunity is really useful as you could switch into possible Thunder Waves, Volt Switches, Thunderbolts etcetera. It has 4 weaknesses - being Fire, Ground, Water and Fighting. Those are all types that offensively are strong, and are annoying to have as weaknesses - it's easy to lose versus other weather teams such as Rain and Sun.

It has a lot items that it could possibly run, and I'm starting off with Choice Scarf as that is my favourite set. It comes with the obvious drawback that you're getting locked into one move but that isn't a major drawback if you're outspeeding a huge part of the metagame (using max speed with Scarf you'll hit 453), only being beaten Jolly Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian, Mega-Swampert in Rain, Kingdra in Rain and Shaymin-Sky with Tailwind up.
Other possibilites are Life Orb, Air Balloon and Focus Sash. Life Orb does a lot of damage to your opponents as Excadrill hits off from an incredible 135 base Attack. Air Balloon could be used to nullify attacks such as Landorus-Therian's Earthquake. Focus Sash can be used considering Excadrill's defenses aren't outstanding - which I'll explain in the next paragraph.

It's base speed isn't really outstanding, and that is the reason why Choice Scarf is my favourite item to use with Excadrill. 88 base Speed isn't really outstanding in a metagame which many speedy attackers. Now it is never going to make use of it's Special Attack, so let's not focus on that. On the other hand - it has an immense 135 base attack, that together with good offensive typing and coverage can be devastating. It still gets walled by a small portion of the metagame - even though it has a great coverage of moves.

It's abilities are pretty good. Sand Rush doubles it's speed while Sandstorm is active, which means that it makes up for a great partner with Tyranitar. It's second ability is Sand Force, which boosts the moves that Excadrill usually uses. Again, this is only in Sandstorm, which means that it is together with Sand Rush basically nullified when your Sandstorm setter has died. It's hidden ability is Mold Breaker - which hits Pokémon such as Rotom-Wash and Rotom-Wash super effectively, and nullifies stuff like Levitate. This is the ability you're probably going to use when you're not using Tyranitar.

Again I have made calculations, this time it's based around the Choice Scarfed Excadrill - using 252 Attack, 252 Speed and the 4 other EVs in Special Defense. The nature is Jolly. The ability is Mold Breaker. The moveset is Earthquake/Drill Run/Iron Head/Rock Slide. I listed the calculations in the other of the first Pokémon attacking. Again, the matchups with wins are coloured green, the matchups it loses are coloured red, and the matchups it's even in are coloured orange.

Here it is:
Aegislash:
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 188-224 (58 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 228-268 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Amoonguss:
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 144-169 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
>spore
Mega-Charizard-Y
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 312-368 (105 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is assuming Rock Slide doesn't miss, you win the matchup vs Charizard-Y.
Cresselia
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Cresselia: 108-127 (24.3 - 28.6%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 73-86 (20.2 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
weird matchup, but you're never getting into 1v1 with cress
Mega-Diancie
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 496-588 (205.8 - 243.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you outspeed mega-diancie
Mega-Kangaskhan
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 135-160 (38.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 237-279 (65.6 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But you get beaten by Sucker Punch the next turn: 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 211-249 (58.4 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Keldeo
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 147-174 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO
232 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 650-767 (180 - 212.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That's not even 252+ Keldeo, which would also OHKO with Secret Sword
Landorus-Therian
-1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 99-117 (30 - 35.4%) -- 22.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 440-518 (121.8 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rotom-Wash
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 254-302 (83.5 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
136 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 398-470 (110.2 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:x
Shaymin-Sky
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 341-403 (94.4 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
it's dependant on the roll, and you might get the flinch off vs skymin


^ Those are the Tier 1 calcs, and it doesn't have a really strong matchup against that Tier, but basically off the Tier 2 Pokémon have negative matchups versus Tier 1.

There are Pokémons it beats from Tier 1.5 such as Bisharp, Jirachi, Kyurem-Black, Mega-Metagross, Talonflame, Thundurus (as Thundurus doesn't deal damage back).
It also has a chance to OHKO Terrakion, dependant on the roll.

There are also Pokémon from Tier 2 it beats, which are a lot, such Mega-Abomasnow, Mega-Gengar, Mega-Manectric, Togekiss, Raikou, Volcarona, Weavile, Victini etcetera..

also it has the best move in the metagame (rock slide), and it is immune to the second best move of the metagame (thunder wave)
it has a massive downside in the fact that it's shiny is ugly as fuck
Why would I use this over lando-t? You'll have to list the merits to justify using a scarf exca over scarf landoge. ._. and you'll have to show that tyranitar is decent/usable to justify sand rush. Random calcs won't help with its viability

Arcticblast edit: you forgot a question mark Haruno you lil shit (you're right though)
 
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Darkmalice

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Nominating Excadrill for Tier 2

Excadrill is an great Pokémon to use with quite a lot of versatility in what you could possibly run. It's movepool includes highlight moves such as Drill Run, Earthquake, Iron Head and Rock Slide. Generally if you're running Choice Scarf that is the set you're going to run. There are coverage moves such as X-Scissor, Poison Jab and Shadow Claw, but those are moves you don't really want to run.

It's Ground/Steel typing is pretty decent, as it has a lot of resistances, resisting Rock by four times. It has two immunities: Electric and Poison. While Poison isn't a common attacking move, the Electric immunity is really useful as you could switch into possible Thunder Waves, Volt Switches, Thunderbolts etcetera. It has 4 weaknesses - being Fire, Ground, Water and Fighting. Those are all types that offensively are strong, and are annoying to have as weaknesses - it's easy to lose versus other weather teams such as Rain and Sun.

It has a lot items that it could possibly run, and I'm starting off with Choice Scarf as that is my favourite set. It comes with the obvious drawback that you're getting locked into one move but that isn't a major drawback if you're outspeeding a huge part of the metagame (using max speed with Scarf you'll hit 453), only being beaten Jolly Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian, Mega-Swampert in Rain, Kingdra in Rain and Shaymin-Sky with Tailwind up.
Other possibilites are Life Orb, Air Balloon and Focus Sash. Life Orb does a lot of damage to your opponents as Excadrill hits off from an incredible 135 base Attack. Air Balloon could be used to nullify attacks such as Landorus-Therian's Earthquake. Focus Sash can be used considering Excadrill's defenses aren't outstanding - which I'll explain in the next paragraph.

It's base speed isn't really outstanding, and that is the reason why Choice Scarf is my favourite item to use with Excadrill. 88 base Speed isn't really outstanding in a metagame which many speedy attackers. Now it is never going to make use of it's Special Attack, so let's not focus on that. On the other hand - it has an immense 135 base attack, that together with good offensive typing and coverage can be devastating. It still gets walled by a small portion of the metagame - even though it has a great coverage of moves.

It's abilities are pretty good. Sand Rush doubles it's speed while Sandstorm is active, which means that it makes up for a great partner with Tyranitar. It's second ability is Sand Force, which boosts the moves that Excadrill usually uses. Again, this is only in Sandstorm, which means that it is together with Sand Rush basically nullified when your Sandstorm setter has died. It's hidden ability is Mold Breaker - which hits Pokémon such as Rotom-Wash and Rotom-Wash super effectively, and nullifies stuff like Levitate. This is the ability you're probably going to use when you're not using Tyranitar.

Again I have made calculations, this time it's based around the Choice Scarfed Excadrill - using 252 Attack, 252 Speed and the 4 other EVs in Special Defense. The nature is Jolly. The ability is Mold Breaker. The moveset is Earthquake/Drill Run/Iron Head/Rock Slide. I listed the calculations in the other of the first Pokémon attacking. Again, the matchups with wins are coloured green, the matchups it loses are coloured red, and the matchups it's even in are coloured orange.

Here it is:
Aegislash:
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 188-224 (58 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 228-268 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Amoonguss:
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 144-169 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
>spore
Mega-Charizard-Y
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 312-368 (105 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is assuming Rock Slide doesn't miss, you win the matchup vs Charizard-Y.
Cresselia
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Cresselia: 108-127 (24.3 - 28.6%) -- 98.2% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 73-86 (20.2 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
weird matchup, but you're never getting into 1v1 with cress
Mega-Diancie
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 496-588 (205.8 - 243.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
you outspeed mega-diancie
Mega-Kangaskhan
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 135-160 (38.3 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 237-279 (65.6 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
But you get beaten by Sucker Punch the next turn: 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 211-249 (58.4 - 68.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Keldeo
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 147-174 (44.6 - 52.8%) -- 23.4% chance to 2HKO
232 SpA Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 650-767 (180 - 212.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
That's not even 252+ Keldeo, which would also OHKO with Secret Sword
Landorus-Therian
-1 252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 99-117 (30 - 35.4%) -- 22.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 440-518 (121.8 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Rotom-Wash
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 254-302 (83.5 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
136 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 398-470 (110.2 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
:x
Shaymin-Sky
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 171-202 (50.1 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 341-403 (94.4 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
it's dependant on the roll, and you might get the flinch off vs skymin


^ Those are the Tier 1 calcs, and it doesn't have a really strong matchup against that Tier, but basically off the Tier 2 Pokémon have negative matchups versus Tier 1.

There are Pokémons it beats from Tier 1.5 such as Bisharp, Jirachi, Kyurem-Black, Mega-Metagross, Talonflame, Thundurus (as Thundurus doesn't deal damage back).
It also has a chance to OHKO Terrakion, dependant on the roll.

There are also Pokémon from Tier 2 it beats, which are a lot, such Mega-Abomasnow, Mega-Gengar, Mega-Manectric, Togekiss, Raikou, Volcarona, Weavile, Victini etcetera..

also it has the best move in the metagame (rock slide), and it is immune to the second best move of the metagame (thunder wave)
it has a massive downside in the fact that it's shiny is ugly as fuck
I would not mention Sandstream as supporting evidence when TTar is in the "don't use" tier.

You should focus more on why you're using it over Scarf Lando-T, it's big competition considering that Scarf is Excadrill's best set. Good points:
  • Mold Breaker. Being a Ground-type that can deal huge damage to Rotom is pretty big for some teams (and likely to OHKO if using Adamant). For this reason, it pairs well with Pokemon that hate Rotom like Gyarados.
  • Steel-typing. That's great and really aids it against Fairy-types. It beats Mega-Diancie even harder than Lando-T and serves as a check to other Fairy-types minus Azumarill. There's little point in saying Steel-type is good and simply restating the Pokedex typings to explain why - make it relevant to the metagame
  • Drill Run is a single-targeting move, which is great if your team has lots of grounded Pokemon
  • Lack of Intimidate can be helpful if you already have Intimidate on the team like Gyarados in order to improve your match-up against Bisharp and Milotic. Only a minor point though.
I could see this being tier 3 because it has some niches over Lando-T, much like how Garchomp is in tier 3 because it has a better sun-match up than Lando-T.

Also not sure why are you using Jolly Scarf. The only thing outsped between Jolly and Adamant is Scarf Lando-T, and you should never leave Excadrill in on it to begin with. Meanwhile you give up your chance to OHKO Rotom-W with Jolly and much needed damage in general.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Next vote is later today so I wanted to respond to Meloetta's nominations and AuraRayquaza's and bring up my own

Landorus-I: everyone else is saying "but then you cant use lando-t" but thats never really been the main hitch with lando-i for me (if you cant build a team without lando-t then maybe you should build more teams nerds). The problem is that it doesn't offer the team much defensively: it has two useful resists one of which is fighting and it can't even use it because terrak cc->rock slide koes and lol keldeo. The other one is ground but ground is used almost always as a coverage move, it can't switch in on Diancie or Skymin or Cube which means the only notable ground users it can switch in on are Lando-T and Heatran. Its speed tier is really lame, it beats everything which doesn't maximize speed and loses to everything which does; it can ohko everything that outspeeds it but of the things it outspeeds it basically only ohkoes ground-weaks. lando-i is just in a really awkward spot and though it's good for dealing damage it's not easy to play around the fact that almost everything is able to threaten it back.

Excadrill: sand rush is total garbage. Steel typing is a curse more than a blessing because Excadrill can't switch into shit so youre just getting none of the benefits of a steel unless you type stack. drill run being contact is a huge letdown, because u cant drill run into aegislash. earthquake is a pain in the ass to play around w/ mold breaker bc you cant use it next to levitators. "mold breaker lets u beat rotom-wash" if u are ok with not being able to switch into it. if it has anything going for it it's that it can level teams lategame with mold breaker eq, but you know, lando-t can do this too only slightly less effectively while also not being useless for most of the game and not being huge lando-t bait. i'll believe exca is ok when i see a single person use it effectively—it has two uses on the seasonal stats and both are losses, one use in spl which was a timer win that should have been a loss.

Ferrothorn: this i could actually see moving up to 1.5 simply because its presence on the team is able to effectively dictate the flow of the match. Your opponent is forced to play cautiously with his two to three pokes that actually beat it as long as ferrothorn is healthy. also it's an auto-win vs a lot of rain teams but rain isnt too popular or good right now. on the other hand, its actual utility on the field throughout the match is limited to dealing chip damage and spreading para, which is why it's in 2 right now. Could go either way here, but leaning 2.

My own nomination:

Raikou to tier 3. Putting it in tier 2 was kind of silly i think, its a pretty niche mon and outclassed by thundurus except for its lack of a rock weak.
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
OK the votes for the next rank shift are in. Votes are in the order: finally, BLOOD TOTEM, myself, Laga, Arcticblast.

Ferrothorn: 2 -> 2
ferrothorn is a lot like amoonguss in the bulky grass aspect, but instead of offering team support like a lot of grass types are supposed to with their sleep immunity pivoting, ferrothorn offers more of a "last win condition" to a team. this is bc the enemy has to save fire/fighting attacks for ferro otherwise they lose, and this consequently gives you the upperhand bc you know they are gonna save act safe with their fire/fighting carriers. anyways, ferro has a big niche in being one of the few last win conditions, but it dosent offer enough niche to be 1.5.

ferro stays 2 for me it's one of those pokemon which is good in theory but mediocre in practice. Amoonguss gets some qt af support moves which make it useless against a lot less than ferro which often finds itslef sitting in doing 0

Ferrothorn: Abstain. Simply hard to decide, on the one hand it's fairly powerful for such a bulky mon thanks to high BP moves and is able to control the flow of the match and has good support options but on the other hand complete setup fodder for sub pokes and has tough competition with Skymin and Amoonguss for a team slot.

ferro: 2

Ferrothorn: 1.5. Simply having one forces your opponent to play their answers to it far more conservatively, as it can win games on its own if the opponent can't hit it for heavy damage. It has a good matchup against a number of potent threats and is a much less passive choice for a bulky Grass should a team feel the need to drop Amoonguss.

Landorus-I: 2 -> 2
landorus-i is shit. keep in 2

lando-i stays 2 its really good against specific threats but pretty average against archetypes like rain + sun. It's like a weird ass glue mon which is held back by it's inability to switch in on anything.

Landorus-I: 2. See what i said in the thread. It's awkward.

lando i: 2

Landorus: 2. It's immensely powerful but is, as stated, a bit awkward to use and suffers from 4MSS. Glad to see it made it into OU though!

Excadrill: Unranked -> 3
excadrill =3 because it is dangerous on sand teams with latios + skymin to sun and even rain.

exca is 3 scarf mb is ok but has limitations like being forced to run two flying-types p much. sand rush is <:^)

Excadrill: Please Don't. Sand is awful, mold breaker scarf is a worse lando-t, mold breaker life orb is too slow.

exca is abstain for me.

Excadrill: 3. If Excadrill didn't exist we wouldn't have to put TTar in "please don't." It's the only argument for the use of sand teams. Its other sets (Scarf and LO Mold Breaker) aren't as effective but are certainly nothing to laugh at.

Raikou: 2 -> 3
raikou is the 3 niche bc it snarls and volt switches but most of the time you would rather be doing something else like rotom-w. its a mon you dont always want on the field, which hurts your own momentum

raikou is so weak lol your only using it if you don't want another rock weak mon, otherwise you just use thund 3 for sure

Raikou: 3. The only things it has over Thundurus are its lack of a rock weak and its access to Snarl, which not all sets even use. This isn't nearly enough niche to put it in tier 2, especially when it gets next to no usage.

raikou: 3

Raikou: Abstain. I fucking love bulky Raikou (better known as Laga's Bane) and I think Raikou as a whole deserves 2 but it seems everyone else is against me since I'm voting last and they all said 3. Same deal with Ferro too. You guys are no fun.


my fellow voters are too nice and will put any pokemon in 3 even if its utter garbage that should never be used. they're just pokemon, guys, they dont have feelings, feel free to put them in please don't if you really shouldn't.
 

Yellow Paint

working as intended
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Mega gyarados unranked -> tier 3?

It's an okay setup attacker with good natural bulk and intimidate, and can change defensive typing as it megas. However, it has to run a stupid amount of speed to pass base 110s and skymin, gets walled to death by amoong, 4MSS, crippled by thundy, and a whole suite of other things. Mega Gyara isn't a great mon without heavy support, but I think it at least deserves some mention, along the same reasoning as mega mawile.
 
gets walled to death by amoong
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 174-205 (40.2 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Crunch vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Amoonguss: 261-307 (60.4 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Amoonguss Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 114-134 (34.4 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It's not walled that hard thanks to Crunch, but it only gets anywhere because it'll hit Amoonguss first before Amoonguss can Giga Drain or Spore.

Everything else pretty well applies though.
 
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