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Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter kamikaze
- Start date
- Status
Dear viability thread, pls staph being dead so we can post the new rankings. Also I would like to reccomend that we expand tier 4 or 20 as it is right now so we can add the few niche (or slightly unviable) mon like chandelure that can't make it into tier 3. I believe this will give us a wider range when working with the less viable tier 3 Pokemon. Also expand maybe into a tier 5 for tru bad pokes such as spinda and Slaking???
Well this post may seem redundant but I just wanted to make this thread less dead while the tier council "quickly" make their tiering choices :(
Well this post may seem redundant but I just wanted to make this thread less dead while the tier council "quickly" make their tiering choices :(
I think it's more that the 5 people picking make all of the decisions due to their understanding and experience in the Doubles OU meta game, as it'll tend to be more comfort picks for some people rather than viable picks voted for in the thread. They do get biased about some stuff, but they won't be nomming things like
i agree with you somewhat, but i feel that its "almost perfect" because the definitions are very brief and broad for the most part, not that that's a bad thing, though. i'm thinking that, since i and probably most of us think that the community should probably have a say in most matters, maybe this thread could have a voting system similar to that of the old one, but with a twist: since the council is more comprehensive on this meta than most of us, a council member's vote could count for 2 or 3 votes rather than just 1. that way, since they know more, their votes will count for more. seems like an idea to meet in the middle. just an idea, though.
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Mega-Gardevoir to tier 2
Mega-Gardevoir has become more relevant to the metagame since the Seasonals and I thought M-Gardevoir is actually a pretty good Pokémon in this tier. its basically just like sylveon but its even better, mega-gardevoir has a much better damage output, as well as gardevoir having a psychic typing too so you get stab on psyshock too, also it's way faster so i don't see how this shouldn't be tier 2.
Mega-Tyranitar to tier 3
this pokemon has not been getting much tournament usage but a lot of people have been playing test battles with it, as well as we've been seeing a lot more tyra + excadrill which is actually a pretty strong core and people kinda underrate it because stratos has told the entire community that "tyranitar is a horrible pokemon!!!!!" which is over-exaggerated but ok
Mega-Altaria to tier 3
actually a good pokemon but it requires a ton of support to make it work mostly from the notable pokemon called jirachi, but I definitely feel like altaria is actually a better pokemon than the likes of m-lucario, infernape etc etc sadly altaria doesn't have a really good speed tier for doubles ou and it doesn't really have a great attack stat so its kinda weak in the current meta but its still a tier 3 worthy mon imo
Zapdos and Raikou to tier 2
both are good electric types that bring a good amount of utility to a team, especially zapdos should be tier 2 because it actually brings tailwind as opposed to thundurus that is unable to setup tailwind. raikou has nice access to snarl
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Stratos
Banned deucer.
at first i thought this post was just to give me aids but then i realized u nominated mgarde for 2 so u were probably serious about the line "zapdos should be tier 2 because it actually brings tailwind as opposed to thundurus" and the entire alt/tar noms and i cried a little
Mega-Gardevoir to tier 2
Mega-Gardevoir has become more relevant to the metagame since the Seasonals and I thought M-Gardevoir is actually a pretty good Pokémon in this tier. its basically just like sylveon but its even better, mega-gardevoir has a much better damage output, as well as gardevoir having a psychic typing too so you get stab on psyshock too, also it's way faster so i don't see how this shouldn't be tier 2.
Mega-Tyranitar to tier 3
this pokemon has not been getting much tournament usage but a lot of people have been playing test battles with it, as well as we've been seeing a lot more tyra + excadrill which is actually a pretty strong core and people kinda underrate it because stratos has told the entire community that "tyranitar is a horrible pokemon!!!!!" which is over-exaggerated but ok
Mega-Altaria to tier 3
actually a good pokemon but it requires a ton of support to make it work mostly from the notable pokemon called jirachi, but I definitely feel like altaria is actually a better pokemon than the likes of m-lucario, infernape etc etc sadly altaria doesn't have a really good speed tier for doubles ou and it doesn't really have a great attack stat so its kinda weak in the current meta but its still a tier 3 worthy mon imo
Zapdos and Raikou to tier 2
both are good electric types that bring a good amount of utility to a team, especially zapdos should be tier 2 because it actually brings tailwind as opposed to thundurus that is unable to setup tailwind. raikou has nice access to snarl
anyways to address the points on the running of this thread:
my b on this one (well mine and everyone else except finally's kek). i cant speak for the rest of the council but something about my summer routine just drains my motivation to do any productive work. it's not right though and i'll try to get my votes in asap and hound everyone else to. i mostly know what im going to vote but it really isnt easy to do. not a justification, just an explanation.
im not gonna dissect this point by point so much but i dont think u realize just how bad the old viability rankings thread was. the community did not make informed decisions, a lot of it was just a single user making a single team with some bullshit pokemon and hyping it up in the thread. when voting rolled around, a bunch of ppl whod never used or faced the pokemon in a serious match in their lives were like "sure the theorymon sounds good lets put it in B rank lol." i mean b± rank contains the omnipresent gems of mega gyarados, escavalier, mega swampert, aromatisse, aerodactyl, mega gallade, slowbro, mega altaria, goodra, klefki, and sceptile. ranks above B were more resistant to theorymon bandwagoning but things like gengar and suicune got theorymon hyped all the way into A rank.
in addition the old viability rankings thread had way more cognitive bias than this one where it was hard as fuck to change people's opinions on a pokemon. the last time tyranitar was good was in black and white and it's only been getting worse every month but it took until 2015 for it to drop out of A rank because people heard it was still good / wanted it to still be good / i dont know it was pretty infuriating seeing ttar keep getting voted A rank. same exact thing with hitmontop except i think we got it to b+ in late 2014. even when i made this new thread, mawile was fucking A rank (it doesnt even deserve to be tier 3), togekiss was A plus despite being way worse in ORAS because it had been good in XY (it was above skymin lmao), politoed was A rank. The resistance to things moving really only came into play big when it came to drops, not rises but i mean look at this fucking A rank and tell me the last viability ranking was a success
i trust top players 100 times more than the average player when it comes to something like viability rankings because our opinions are less swayed by what others say is good or bad, only our actual personal observations of the metagame. this is because we think we are the best and that nobody can teach us much about the metagame but in fairness we so are (i mean maw having a spot on something other than please don't is clear proof that we're not perfect but we're a lot better). we are a lot more open to rises and drops than the average person as well, i cant imagine the resounding "no" if someone nominated skymin for s rank in the old vrankings thread but when top players said "fuck you it's tier 1 anyway" we now have ppl realizing how actually good it is and even a lot of ppl want a suspect (something that never happened with the old thread despite nothing changing about skymin's viability). i state a lot of my opinions on pokemon strongly but it doesnt take too much to get me to change my tune and this is the case with the rest of the council as well which is good because guess what, the meta actually changes rapidly. doubles ou was stagnant for basically all of 2014 and while im not egotistical enough to say that the viability rankings becoming more volatile is the only reason the meta is a lot more fresh and ever-changing now than it ever has been, im also not going to say that i think it has nothing to do with it.
this is nothing like a council ban of mega mence (btw we reserve the right to do council bans of things kek) because we're not actually affecting the tier at all. this thread is simply a resource. well actually we probably do affect the metagame because after the new viability rankings came out skymin jumped in usage, hitmontop usage tanked, etc but if u think this is a bad thing u are bonkers in the brain. but u can still play with whatever u want, we're not stopping u
lastly i want to address the point of "we dont like this so this is bad." i intentionally made the council as diverse as possible in order to combat the possibility of a hivemind. i build very defensively so i made sure to have totem on the council because he builds hyper offense almost exclusively so between the two of us we get very different perspectives. arcticblast and myself disagree with each other on probably 1/2 of the rankings. laga teams are typically built to heavily support a win condition which is again very much not my style and so he gets a different perspective as well. finally has built more teams than everyone else in this metagame combined. in addition we all respect each other's opinions to a very high degree which means that any decision we make is going to be well discussed and considered (well thats not entirely true i dont respect Arcticblast). the accusation that we dont play is also complete rice a roni baloney (or at least was at the time i made the council and if finally or laga dont get back into mons soon then i will replace them in a heartbeat) and im pretty ticked that u would even say that.
kyub from tier 1.5 -> tier 1
it feels kinda weird having kyub here when it's so good. Kyub breaks like half the meta, and destroys p much every bulky f/w/g core around. it also singlehandedly beats rain, which is pretty handy. it has insane bulk, and can take some super effective hits aimed at it. a bunch of good players wanna ban this thing, so it feels kinda weird that its not on the top of the viability rankings
it feels kinda weird having kyub here when it's so good. Kyub breaks like half the meta, and destroys p much every bulky f/w/g core around. it also singlehandedly beats rain, which is pretty handy. it has insane bulk, and can take some super effective hits aimed at it. a bunch of good players wanna ban this thing, so it feels kinda weird that its not on the top of the viability rankings
terrakion from tier 1.5 -> tier 2
although terrakion has a ton of power behind it, it doesn't match up well against much of tier 1. it's a hard mon to utilize in a metagame infested with skymin, aegislash, landorus-t, diancie, and metagross and its base 108 speed tier is still alright but it's a bit too slow atm. it just doesn't feel on par with the other mons in 1.5 considering its best checks are found on almost every team.
although terrakion has a ton of power behind it, it doesn't match up well against much of tier 1. it's a hard mon to utilize in a metagame infested with skymin, aegislash, landorus-t, diancie, and metagross and its base 108 speed tier is still alright but it's a bit too slow atm. it just doesn't feel on par with the other mons in 1.5 considering its best checks are found on almost every team.
Too bad we don't have a tier 2.5
latios tier 1.5 to 2
looking at other dragon types the only thing setting itself apart from hydreigon and kyu-b is that it doesn't lose to keldeo and terrakion (terrakion is almost never seen anyway lately) and I guess kyu-b doesn't have tailwind. hydreigon can outright beat other pokemon setting up trick room aside from aromatisse and it hits aegislash very hard while kyu-b can do quite a lot with its coverage moves in earth power/dragon moves/ice beam/fusion bolt to the current meta game.
looking at other dragon types the only thing setting itself apart from hydreigon and kyu-b is that it doesn't lose to keldeo and terrakion (terrakion is almost never seen anyway lately) and I guess kyu-b doesn't have tailwind. hydreigon can outright beat other pokemon setting up trick room aside from aromatisse and it hits aegislash very hard while kyu-b can do quite a lot with its coverage moves in earth power/dragon moves/ice beam/fusion bolt to the current meta game.
>avoids losing to kanga 100% of the time
>avoids losing to zard 100% of the time
>avoids losing to hydreigon/kyube 100% of the time
>doesn't lose to amoonguss
>does better against fairies
nice job cherry picking mate. Last I checked kyube and hydreigon fare a lot worse against those after mentioned threats. Throw on the fact that latios can 50/50 with itself/diancie and beats terrakion/keldeo 1v1 and you have solid reasons on why it's equal to, if not better than hydreigon/kyube.
Unless Kangaskhan isn't using Sucker Punch for whatever reason, Hydreigon actually has a better matchup versus Kangaskhan than Latios does. Hydreigon can live a Return about 70% of the time (typically higher since people usually invest some bulk into Hydreigon), whereas Latios always loses to Sucker Punch before it even attacks.
Fair enough, though the matchup is actually quite close, and bulkier Hydreigon sets actually have a much better matchup.
True.
Considering standard Amoonguss EV's to always live a lorb Psyshock, and Hydreigon 2HKO's anyway, this matchup isn't as one sided as you claim it is. Not to mention Hydreigon can easily run Fire Blast for coverage and that does nearly as much as Psyshock you're really hyping up Latios too much here.
Also just because something doesn't OHKO amoonguss before being slept doesn't mean it loses to it. Seriously what the fuck?
True, but I wouldn't consider getting off one attack before dying a true selling point.
Last I checked Hydreigon fares a lot better versus Trick Room, Aegislash, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Bisharp, and Jirachi, and even Mega Metagross if it's not running Hammer Arm. Also, as mentioned earlier, it has a much better movepool so it can run coverage as needed depending on the team. The most relevant thing you've mentioned is that it doesn't lose to Keldeo and Terrakion, which is a fair enough point but not something I would say makes it as good as Kyurem-B or Hydreigon in the current meta.
Let's pretend for a moment that it's possible to directly compare Latios and Kyurem-Black.
Latios doesn't beat Kangaskhan either man, Sucker Punch probably still KOs through Reflect and Draco Meteor doesn't KO so you can't really mind game it with Tailwind. The only special Dragon that can actually beat Kangaskhan before Kang beats it is Specs Focus Blast Hydreigon, and that can't really take a Double-Edge.
Zard is a valid point, although Hydreigon can still win if it runs Roost (something Latios does too, but not as well).
Scarf Kyurem-B is the Dragon beater of the three because of its speed; ignoring Scarf, Latios obviously wins because it out speeds the others. Duh.
All three beat Amoonguss, but none OHKO. Kyurem-B has the advantage because of Sub.
Fairies are valid. That said, Latios shouldn't be risking the 50/50 against Mega Diancie unless Diancie is weakened and there are no better moves, as Psyshock does not OHKO.
Latios doesn't beat Kangaskhan either man, Sucker Punch probably still KOs through Reflect and Draco Meteor doesn't KO so you can't really mind game it with Tailwind. The only special Dragon that can actually beat Kangaskhan before Kang beats it is Specs Focus Blast Hydreigon, and that can't really take a Double-Edge.
Zard is a valid point, although Hydreigon can still win if it runs Roost (something Latios does too, but not as well).
Scarf Kyurem-B is the Dragon beater of the three because of its speed; ignoring Scarf, Latios obviously wins because it out speeds the others. Duh.
All three beat Amoonguss, but none OHKO. Kyurem-B has the advantage because of Sub.
Fairies are valid. That said, Latios shouldn't be risking the 50/50 against Mega Diancie unless Diancie is weakened and there are no better moves, as Psyshock does not OHKO.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
u can do all this but u cant vote on the current batch of pokes
Stratos
Banned deucer.
btw i think latios is incredibly underrated by a lot of people atm who look at it like a hydreigon, when they play less similar than people probably think
if you get a hydreigon in on a good matchup at any point in the match your opponent is pretty much guaranteed to take a nuke to the face. that's not true of latios. if you want a pokemon that can nuke things when it gets in on defensive pokemon then you should go with hydreigon.
however latios's higher speed makes it a lot more effective at keeping pressure up than hydreigon is. when your latios gets a kill, the opponent doesn't necessarily seize momentum back like they almost always do vs hydreigon, which means it's great at ripping through teams when paired with another offensive Pokemon. I'm reminded of a game i played against dracoyoshi8 where latios + eq locked landorus-t took out his last five pokemon without switching.
Hydreigon punches holes better, but latios cleans better. i think this is important, and that as the meta has been trending more offensive lately it has been trending in latios's favor even (i still think hydrei prob deserves more usage but latios has been closing the gap for sure)
of course theres also the 1v1 superior matchups latios has vs dragons and fairies (2hkoing sylv is actually big shaian, it means its not a safe switch) and muskedeers but honestly i dont think thats as important as what i already said.
ps if you think your latios is too easily walled then drop tailwind (unthinkable i know) for hidden power ground which is what most latios should be running, that way weakened steels dont beat you, tran doesnt beat you, and u can catch steels on the switch
if you get a hydreigon in on a good matchup at any point in the match your opponent is pretty much guaranteed to take a nuke to the face. that's not true of latios. if you want a pokemon that can nuke things when it gets in on defensive pokemon then you should go with hydreigon.
however latios's higher speed makes it a lot more effective at keeping pressure up than hydreigon is. when your latios gets a kill, the opponent doesn't necessarily seize momentum back like they almost always do vs hydreigon, which means it's great at ripping through teams when paired with another offensive Pokemon. I'm reminded of a game i played against dracoyoshi8 where latios + eq locked landorus-t took out his last five pokemon without switching.
Hydreigon punches holes better, but latios cleans better. i think this is important, and that as the meta has been trending more offensive lately it has been trending in latios's favor even (i still think hydrei prob deserves more usage but latios has been closing the gap for sure)
of course theres also the 1v1 superior matchups latios has vs dragons and fairies (2hkoing sylv is actually big shaian, it means its not a safe switch) and muskedeers but honestly i dont think thats as important as what i already said.
ps if you think your latios is too easily walled then drop tailwind (unthinkable i know) for hidden power ground which is what most latios should be running, that way weakened steels dont beat you, tran doesnt beat you, and u can catch steels on the switch
I have a strong desire to correct people when they're wrong
And now to respond to Haruno again: Hydreigon runs Fire Blast on any team without another Fire attack because not being able to kill Ferro reliably is asking to lose
Also Bisharp usage has been appearing to go UP because it's the best CM Cress check in the game so idk what you're talking about there
Stratos
Banned deucer.
votes in the order: finally, myself, totem, laga, arcticblast (he only voted for victini cuz it was the only undecided one at this point)
MGyara UR -> 3
MGarde 3 -> 2
Victini 2 -> 3
Virizion UR -> 3
Entei UR -> 3
Gourgeist UR -> 3
MGallade UR -> 3
MTar UR -> 3
MLop 3 -> UR
[7/10/15, 1:24:19 PM] Will Connor: If that's the only one that matters just say that and I'll maybe post something about them later
highlights of this vote:
i think u mean spl5 nerd
MGyara UR -> 3
mega gyarados stay in unranked. no niche.
no. mgyara doesnt hit hard enough to justify being used and it loses hard to keld and amoong among other things
m gyara - n - outclassed by non mega
MGyara - no, absolutely not. Tried it the other day, it's only even remotely usable on an offensive team capable of keeping pressure constantly which, as we know, isn't an easy task to maintain at all times.
no. mgyara doesnt hit hard enough to justify being used and it loses hard to keld and amoong among other things
m gyara - n - outclassed by non mega
MGyara - no, absolutely not. Tried it the other day, it's only even remotely usable on an offensive team capable of keeping pressure constantly which, as we know, isn't an easy task to maintain at all times.
MGarde 3 -> 2
mega gardevoir move to 2 because once it gets speed control, it's good
yes. mega garde is like sylveon if sylveon were actually hard to wall. access to protect and psychic makes it the best hyper voice spammer by a long mile, only downside being it takes ur mega.
m garde - y - rly good mon people used to say 'outclassed by sylv' but i maintain this is 100% wrong
MGarde - yes, tested it a bit today, everything said so far is true.
yes. mega garde is like sylveon if sylveon were actually hard to wall. access to protect and psychic makes it the best hyper voice spammer by a long mile, only downside being it takes ur mega.
m garde - y - rly good mon people used to say 'outclassed by sylv' but i maintain this is 100% wrong
MGarde - yes, tested it a bit today, everything said so far is true.
Victini 2 -> 3
victini stay in 2. it has a lot of viable sets (scarf, trick room, life orb attacker) and final gambit helps make sure it goes 1 for 1.
yes it is weak offensively
victini - y - V Create in sun hits rly rly rly hard, obv downsides of vcreate and limiting nature of scarf
Victini - abstain, haven't used it since stealing cstick's legendary gen V tailwind team
[7/10/15, 1:24:02 PM] Will Connor: I think Victini sucks horse dick
yes it is weak offensively
victini - y - V Create in sun hits rly rly rly hard, obv downsides of vcreate and limiting nature of scarf
Victini - abstain, haven't used it since stealing cstick's legendary gen V tailwind team
[7/10/15, 1:24:02 PM] Will Connor: I think Victini sucks horse dick
Virizion UR -> 3
virizion move to 3 has a niche in getting past amoonguss and beating kanga. unfortunately it has a problem with choosing between lum and life orb. its like a fast breloom without spore, so lower rank than breloom bc spore is good.
yes. nothing else can do all of beating waters, tran, and kang; seems ok
virizion - y - speaking from theorymon but it beats an interesting combo, i trust kami's judgement enough to support this
Virizion - y, beats so many popular mons in one pack
yes. nothing else can do all of beating waters, tran, and kang; seems ok
virizion - y - speaking from theorymon but it beats an interesting combo, i trust kami's judgement enough to support this
Virizion - y, beats so many popular mons in one pack
Entei UR -> 3
entei abstain. never played with it
nah sacred fire isnt enough to save the fact that theres half a dozen superior bulky fires
entei - n - i sometimes use this but i'm always disappointing
Entei - DEFINITELY, this thing is good i swear. It's also not outclassed by heatran, since it can burn much more consistently.
nah sacred fire isnt enough to save the fact that theres half a dozen superior bulky fires
entei - n - i sometimes use this but i'm always disappointing
Entei - DEFINITELY, this thing is good i swear. It's also not outclassed by heatran, since it can burn much more consistently.
Gourgeist UR -> 3
gourgeist super move to 3. other gourgeists are kind of unviable. it's a niche trick room setter that can surprisingly take a lot of hits. use spacebass' spread. better than trevenant too. you use gourg for its typing because you wanna complete a fire water grass core or something
hmmm...it sets on amoonguss without needing goggles and will-o-wisp helps to deal with things like kang/bisharp (somewhat), but it also keeps u from running amoonguss (only good fm on tr tbh) and loses to a lot of things one on one. abstain
gourgeist - y - this thing is prob one of the most consistent tr setters out of cress, rly good on semi tr niche thanks to typing / movepool
Gourgeist - huge abstain, it's like it vanished since spl
hmmm...it sets on amoonguss without needing goggles and will-o-wisp helps to deal with things like kang/bisharp (somewhat), but it also keeps u from running amoonguss (only good fm on tr tbh) and loses to a lot of things one on one. abstain
gourgeist - y - this thing is prob one of the most consistent tr setters out of cress, rly good on semi tr niche thanks to typing / movepool
Gourgeist - huge abstain, it's like it vanished since spl
MGallade UR -> 3
mega gallade stay in unranked. dosen't beat kanga reliably because it has to protect turn 1 in order to get the speed to beat kanga. i guess if you really don't want to run latios+keldeo, you can run mega gallade
no. i really dont see a reason to use this over metagross or, like finally said, latios+keld which is actually a potent offensive core (latios is super underrated atm btw). ally switch is cool but not that cool. it's not please don't tier bad but it lacks any useful resists and as such has trouble switching in on things so id rather use similar offensive pokes that DO switch in on things
m gallade - n - i like it but no niche :^(
MGallade - n, it's simply not consistent enough with matchups. It's def usable, but not good at all.
no. i really dont see a reason to use this over metagross or, like finally said, latios+keld which is actually a potent offensive core (latios is super underrated atm btw). ally switch is cool but not that cool. it's not please don't tier bad but it lacks any useful resists and as such has trouble switching in on things so id rather use similar offensive pokes that DO switch in on things
m gallade - n - i like it but no niche :^(
MGallade - n, it's simply not consistent enough with matchups. It's def usable, but not good at all.
MTar UR -> 3
mega ttar move to 3. beat sun and strong BST. don't even have to run excadrill with it. mega ttar is primarily for teams which don't already have a dedicated mega and you make ttar the mega.
no. https://metagamesecrets.wordpress.com/2015/07/05/sand-offense-is-hot/comment-page-1/#comment-23
mtar - n - hint: look at tier 1
MTar - n, Mega Tar is really not very good. Ttar found a slight bit of viability lately, no matter how much pwne will deny it, but it's mega is just not worth the slot.
no. https://metagamesecrets.wordpress.com/2015/07/05/sand-offense-is-hot/comment-page-1/#comment-23
mtar - n - hint: look at tier 1
MTar - n, Mega Tar is really not very good. Ttar found a slight bit of viability lately, no matter how much pwne will deny it, but it's mega is just not worth the slot.
MLop 3 -> UR
lopunny to unranked. it's like a utility kanga, but if you want utility, just use another mon alongside kanga
yes. +0 mega lopunny hits almost exactly as hard with return as -1 kangaskhan why would u use this pokemon
mlop - y - with 8 moves, yes i would use this, 4 no
MLop - y, agree 100% with what fanly wrote tbh. You gotta find utility in other mons that ur mega.
yes. +0 mega lopunny hits almost exactly as hard with return as -1 kangaskhan why would u use this pokemon
mlop - y - with 8 moves, yes i would use this, 4 no
MLop - y, agree 100% with what fanly wrote tbh. You gotta find utility in other mons that ur mega.
[7/10/15, 1:24:19 PM] Will Connor: If that's the only one that matters just say that and I'll maybe post something about them later
highlights of this vote:
blood totem said:
68 | Gourgeist-Super | 1 | 1% | 100%laga said:
i think u mean spl5 nerd
Rotom-Wash From Tier 1 to Tier 1.5
It feels weird saying this because Rotom-Wash has been the most consistently good pokemon for the longest time, but Rotom-Wash is really not liking the current meta. The amount of hyper offense teams right now is insane and, although rather bulky, Rotom-Wash cannot effectively switch in on any hits from popular HO mons (minus Talon). Similarly to Kyurem-Black, there are matchups where Rotom-Wash does wonders, and there are some where it just feels like dead-weight. If needing a water type for a team, I almost never consider washtom because Keldeo exists. Iunno I might be wrong here but I haven't seen Rotom-wash really pull its weight recently.
EDIT: Also getting buttfucked by literally every dragon sucks and I see either hydreigon, Kyub, or Latios on p much every team
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