ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M2

[dodmen]

Isn't Beedrill already A?

My bad, A+

 

[Schpoonman]

I'm against Mega Pidgeot moving to S.

The biggest reason is of course Mega Aerodactyl, who beats it pretty handily 80% of the time (really, GameFreak? Fighting gets fucking Close Combat on top of all its other moves and the strongest physical Rock move with perfect accuracy is Smack Down?)(I totally forgot that No Guard applies to Aero's attacks as well, meaning that Stone Edge will always land), as well as being unable to use Mega Aero yourself, which is either the best Pokemon in the tier or in the top three. Meanwhile, 83/80/80 bulk leaves a lot to be desired when you consider Normal/Flying typing because Mega Pidgeot resists exactly zero priority in the tier, and Mamoswine's drop especially means that sweet sweet 121 Base Speed stat isn't as valuable as it really needs to be. Jolly LO Ice Shard has a 31.3% chance to KO stock with JUST Rocks. Adamant bumps that up to 87.5. That's mostly what I've got to say about Pidgeot for the time being. Keep it A+.

Repeat what I said about Pidgeot for Beedrill

but with less effective STABs, significantly worse bulk (seriously, Mamoswine does nearly the same amount with a now neutral Ice Shard), no immunities, and a reliance on Protect which causes some 4MSS. Keep it A.

Keep Tentacruel in A.

It's not as effective in checking physical threats as Qwilfish is, which is where they traditionally compete, but its tremendous speed for a wall is massively useful. Funnily enough, its presence in the tier is pretty much the lone reason to run Jolly on Tyrantrum, who otherwise would prefer to run Adamant on its Band set, as well as threatening Honchkrow (all the other 100 Base Speed defensive Pokemon have gone to OU), but it being in the tier and a possible threat is pretty huge. Its special bulk is also tremendous, so while its special resistances aren't anything to sneeze at, it can take a lot of neutral special attacks, while only slightly being hindered by its lack of reliable recovery. There's also the bonus of punishing Trick users with Black Sludge. Since Starmie's departure a few months back it's also now the fastest spinner by a rather significant margin, and it is both threatened by and threatens the new toy, Mamoswine. You get KO'd if Mamoswine so much as looks in your direction funny, but it can't switch in for fear of Scald, and should you run some speed to differentiate yourself from Qwilfish (which I would try if I could stand to use stall/semi-stall, where I feel Tentacruel is best used) YOU could potentially switch in on Mamoswine and then force it out with Scald. Not that they'd be expecting speedy Tentacruel, but that's half the fun of so much natural speed on a defensive Pokemon. Keep it A.

I think Mienshao should move down to A.

HJK being unreliable (this is what happens when you strive for statistical rigor across several hundred players, some of them get all the misses) on top of REALLY bad bulk (you thought Midgeot was bad? Say hello to 65/60/60) means Mienshao isn't pulling as much weight as he used to. I realize I may sound like a broken record with all the schtuff about Mamoswine, but 1) He's like my third favorite Pokemon, and 2) His presence REALLY shakes up the tier Seriously, STAB Ice Shard off 130 Attack is bonkers in UU. Remember what I said about HJK being unreliable? Well, if you DO miss, that Ice Shard that just flew out first is gonna do a minimum of 47%, so if you switched in on Rocks you just lost your Mienshao. Mienshao still hits super hard, but ONLY with HJK, and his mono-Fighting typing is more a curse than a blessing. He's the ONLY mono-Fighting-type in the tier, every other Fighting-type has that sweet secondary STAB or fantastic additional coverage they can use to help get rid of shit that would normally wall them. Frankly, Mienshao's coverage kinda sucks. Not in that he has necessarily poor type coverage (though he's no Infernape), but none of it really hits that hard. Drop it to A.

One last note about Pidgeot, but also about the tier in general: A lot of users seem to have the idea that a check should operate like a counter. Saturday I got into a bit of an argument with people over PDef Umbreon used as a check to SD Gatr. Simply put, it's a pretty bad check. Most any prior damage and Rocks and you lose your Umbreon without even getting that crucial +2 Foul Play off. Mind you, this was brought up as one of the few checks to SD Gatr. Meanwhile, there's a metric fuckton of Pokemon that threaten Feraligatr if his speed isn't boosted and simply don't care about Aqua Jet. The tier is slowly becoming more offensively inclined, and defensive answers are becoming less satisfactory. So yes, Mega Aero takes a big chunk from Hurricane, and yes, confusion hax is a thing. But that's why the definition of a check is a free switch is given. If Aero was a counter then it would readily switch in on Hurricane. Hey, sometimes it still will. But more often than not whatever is least needed in the match will eat the Hurricane and THEN switch into Aero and force Pidgeot out, or KO it. Aero, probably the best Pokemon in the tier, checks Pidgeot 100% of the time and even counters it about 70% of the time. That's enough to keep it out of S.

I lied about that being the last note. Has anyone read Pidgeot's UU dex entry recently? They claim it outspeeds Noivern. Who knew 121 > 123?

EDIT: Fuck, that got wall-of-text-y. Sorry.

 

[Adaam]

I'm against Mega Pidgeot moving to S.

The biggest reason is of course Mega Aerodactyl, who beats it pretty handily 80% of the time (really, GameFreak? Fighting gets fucking Close Combat on top of all its other moves and the strongest physical Rock move with perfect accuracy is Smack Down?)(I totally forgot that No Guard applies to Aero's attacks as well, meaning that Stone Edge will always land), as well as being unable to use Mega Aero yourself, which is either the best Pokemon in the tier or in the top three. Meanwhile, 83/80/80 bulk leaves a lot to be desired when you consider Normal/Flying typing because Mega Pidgeot resists exactly zero priority in the tier, and Mamoswine's drop especially means that sweet sweet 121 Base Speed stat isn't as valuable as it really needs to be. Jolly LO Ice Shard has a 31.3% chance to KO stock with JUST Rocks. Adamant bumps that up to 87.5. That's mostly what I've got to say about Pidgeot for the time being. Keep it A+.

Repeat what I said about Pidgeot for Beedrill

, but less effective STABs, significantly worse bulk (seriously, Mamoswine does nearly the same amount with a now neutral Ice Shard), no immunities, and a reliance on Protect which causes some 4MSS. Keep it A.

Keep Tentacruel in A.

It's not as effective in checking physical threats as Qwilfish is, which is where they traditionally compete, but its tremendous speed for a wall is massively useful. Funnily enough, its presence in the tier is pretty much the lone reason to run Jolly on Tyrantrum, who otherwise would prefer to run Adamant on its Band set, as well as threatening Honchkrow (all the other 100 Base Speed defensive Pokemon have gone to OU), but it being in the tier and a possible threat is pretty huge. Its special bulk is also tremendous, so while its special resistances aren't anything to sneeze at, it can take a lot of neutral special attacks, while only slightly being hindered by its lack of reliable recovery. There's also the bonus of punishing Trick users with Black Sludge. Since Starmie's departure a few months back it's also now the fastest spinner by a rather significant margin, and it is both threatened by and threatens the new toy, Mamoswine. You get KO'd if Mamoswine so much as looks in your direction funny, but it can't switch in for fear of Scald, and should you run some speed to differentiate yourself from Qwilfish (which I would try if I could stand to use stall/semi-stall, where I feel Tentacruel is best used) YOU could potentially switch in on Mamoswine and then force it out with Scald. Not that they'd be expecting speedy Tentacruel, but that's half the fun of so much natural speed on a defensive Pokemon. Keep it A.

I think Mienshao should move down to A.

HJK being unreliable (this is what happens when you strive for statistical rigor across several hundred players, some of them get all the misses) on top of REALLY bad bulk (you thought Midgeot was bad? Say hello to 65/60/60) means Mienshao isn't pulling as much weight as he used to. I realize I may sound like a broken record with all the schtuff about Mamoswine, but 1) He's like my third favorite Pokemon, and 2) His presence REALLY shakes up the tier Seriously, STAB Ice Shard off 130 Attack is bonkers in UU. Remember what I said about HJK being unreliable? Well, if you DO miss, that Ice Shard that just flew out first is gonna do a minimum of 47%, so if you switched in on Rocks you just lost your Mienshao. Mienshao still hits super hard, but ONLY with HJK, and his mono-Fighting typing is more a curse than a blessing. He's the ONLY mono-Fighting-type in the tier, every other Fighting-type has that sweet secondary STAB or fantastic additional coverage they can use to help get rid of shit that would normally wall them. Frankly, Mienshao's coverage kinda sucks. Not in that he has necessarily poor type coverage (though he's no Infernape), but none of it really hits that hard. Drop it to A.

One last note about Pidgeot, but also about the tier in general: A lot of users seem to have the idea that a check should operate like a counter. Saturday I got into a bit of an argument with people over PDef Umbreon used as a check to SD Gatr. Simply put, it's a pretty bad check. Most any prior damage and Rocks and you lose your Umbreon without even getting that crucial +2 Foul Play off. Meanwhile, there's a metric fuckton of Pokemon that threaten Feraligatr if his speed isn't boosted and simply don't care about Aqua Jet. The tier is slowly becoming more offensively inclined, and defensive answers are becoming less satisfactory. So yes, Mega Aero takes a big chunk from Hurricane, and yes, confusion hax is a thing. But that's why the definition of a check is a free switch is given. If Aero was a counter then it would readily switch in on Hurricane. Hey, sometimes it still will. But more often than not whatever is least needed in the match will eat the Hurricane and THEN switch into Aero and force Pidgeot out, or KO it. Aero, probably the best Pokemon in the tier, checks Pidgeot 100% of the time and even counters it about 70% of the time. That's enough to keep it out of S.

I lied about that being the last note. Has anyone read Pidgeot's UU dex entry recently? They claim it outspeeds Noivern. Who knew 121 > 123?

EDIT: Fuck, that got wall-of-text-y. Sorry.

If Aero is enough to keep Pidgeot out of S, then why isn't Suicune enough to put Aero out of S? Mamoswine's Ice Shard also hits Aero super effectively, so again, if Ice Shard keeps Pidgeot out of S then so should Aero. You may also argue that Aero resists Extremespeed, while Pidgeot doesn't, however, it also is weak to Aqua Jet and Bullet Punch (but I admit only Luc and Machamp carry it), so Aero is just as vulnerable to priority as Pidgeot.

 

[Wanka]

I'm against Mega Pidgeot moving to S.

The biggest reason is of course Mega Aerodactyl, who beats it pretty handily 80% of the time (really, GameFreak? Fighting gets fucking Close Combat on top of all its other moves and the strongest physical Rock move with perfect accuracy is Smack Down?)(I totally forgot that No Guard applies to Aero's attacks as well, meaning that Stone Edge will always land), as well as being unable to use Mega Aero yourself, which is either the best Pokemon in the tier or in the top three. Meanwhile, 83/80/80 bulk leaves a lot to be desired when you consider Normal/Flying typing because Mega Pidgeot resists exactly zero priority in the tier, and Mamoswine's drop especially means that sweet sweet 121 Base Speed stat isn't as valuable as it really needs to be. Jolly LO Ice Shard has a 31.3% chance to KO stock with JUST Rocks. Adamant bumps that up to 87.5. That's mostly what I've got to say about Pidgeot for the time being. Keep it A+.

Repeat what I said about Pidgeot for Beedrill

but with less effective STABs, significantly worse bulk (seriously, Mamoswine does nearly the same amount with a now neutral Ice Shard), no immunities, and a reliance on Protect which causes some 4MSS. Keep it A.

Keep Tentacruel in A.

It's not as effective in checking physical threats as Qwilfish is, which is where they traditionally compete, but its tremendous speed for a wall is massively useful. Funnily enough, its presence in the tier is pretty much the lone reason to run Jolly on Tyrantrum, who otherwise would prefer to run Adamant on its Band set, as well as threatening Honchkrow (all the other 100 Base Speed defensive Pokemon have gone to OU), but it being in the tier and a possible threat is pretty huge. Its special bulk is also tremendous, so while its special resistances aren't anything to sneeze at, it can take a lot of neutral special attacks, while only slightly being hindered by its lack of reliable recovery. There's also the bonus of punishing Trick users with Black Sludge. Since Starmie's departure a few months back it's also now the fastest spinner by a rather significant margin, and it is both threatened by and threatens the new toy, Mamoswine. You get KO'd if Mamoswine so much as looks in your direction funny, but it can't switch in for fear of Scald, and should you run some speed to differentiate yourself from Qwilfish (which I would try if I could stand to use stall/semi-stall, where I feel Tentacruel is best used) YOU could potentially switch in on Mamoswine and then force it out with Scald. Not that they'd be expecting speedy Tentacruel, but that's half the fun of so much natural speed on a defensive Pokemon. Keep it A.

I think Mienshao should move down to A.

HJK being unreliable (this is what happens when you strive for statistical rigor across several hundred players, some of them get all the misses) on top of REALLY bad bulk (you thought Midgeot was bad? Say hello to 65/60/60) means Mienshao isn't pulling as much weight as he used to. I realize I may sound like a broken record with all the schtuff about Mamoswine, but 1) He's like my third favorite Pokemon, and 2) His presence REALLY shakes up the tier Seriously, STAB Ice Shard off 130 Attack is bonkers in UU. Remember what I said about HJK being unreliable? Well, if you DO miss, that Ice Shard that just flew out first is gonna do a minimum of 47%, so if you switched in on Rocks you just lost your Mienshao. Mienshao still hits super hard, but ONLY with HJK, and his mono-Fighting typing is more a curse than a blessing. He's the ONLY mono-Fighting-type in the tier, every other Fighting-type has that sweet secondary STAB or fantastic additional coverage they can use to help get rid of shit that would normally wall them. Frankly, Mienshao's coverage kinda sucks. Not in that he has necessarily poor type coverage (though he's no Infernape), but none of it really hits that hard. Drop it to A.

One last note about Pidgeot, but also about the tier in general: A lot of users seem to have the idea that a check should operate like a counter. Saturday I got into a bit of an argument with people over PDef Umbreon used as a check to SD Gatr. Simply put, it's a pretty bad check. Most any prior damage and Rocks and you lose your Umbreon without even getting that crucial +2 Foul Play off. Mind you, this was brought up as one of the few checks to SD Gatr. Meanwhile, there's a metric fuckton of Pokemon that threaten Feraligatr if his speed isn't boosted and simply don't care about Aqua Jet. The tier is slowly becoming more offensively inclined, and defensive answers are becoming less satisfactory. So yes, Mega Aero takes a big chunk from Hurricane, and yes, confusion hax is a thing. But that's why the definition of a check is a free switch is given. If Aero was a counter then it would readily switch in on Hurricane. Hey, sometimes it still will. But more often than not whatever is least needed in the match will eat the Hurricane and THEN switch into Aero and force Pidgeot out, or KO it. Aero, probably the best Pokemon in the tier, checks Pidgeot 100% of the time and even counters it about 70% of the time. That's enough to keep it out of S.

I lied about that being the last note. Has anyone read Pidgeot's UU dex entry recently? They claim it outspeeds Noivern. Who knew 121 > 123?

EDIT: Fuck, that got wall-of-text-y. Sorry.

How the hell is one mon keeping pidgeot out of S rank when one pidgeot can be very easily supported as aero has a shit ton of common checks like forretress and suicune being some of the most common pokemon in the tier. So if there are common checks to aero then why is aero S rank. And the whole argument about how "Oh since you are using pidgeot you are not using mega aero" is kinda BS in my opinion because pidgeot has just as good of a low risk high reward factor as mega aero. Also I would try and think of something original to say about keeping pidgeot out of S rank as you pretty much stated exactly what iron bullet said on page 2. Also since when is aero a safe switch in -.-....especially if it hasn't mega'd yet. You are forced to roost and lose momentum if it gets too low which puts you at a disadvantage during a battle. It its way more safer to sack something first and then bring aero in which means something on your team just died in order to check pidgeot. There is no way pidge should not be S as it has risen to be one of uu's most threatening mons. And mamo's prescense can have the same affect on a mon like aero as well....ice shard is super effective against aero too.

So moving on to tentacruel. Tyrantrum is not nearly as common of a mon to make a case for tenta staying at A. Also with tenta's bad physical defense it is very commonly running max defense spreads or close to it. This leaves it very vulnerable to special hitters like hydreigon, pidgeot, chandelure, dragalge, and even sceptile. With it forced to run physically bulky spreads your argument on the fact that it can take some neutral special hits is kind of invalid as without the special bulk you are not taking dracos, hurricanes, shadow balls, and leaf storms well at all. Even if you do run speed to creep mamoswine you cant even KO it with scald and when you are adding speed you are taking away bulk which is hindering your tentacruel. Don't get me wrong tenta being a fast spiker and spinner makes it solid in the metagame but its sub par mixed bulk just doesn't cut it for an A ranked wall.

calcs on tenta

252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 240 HP / 44 SpD Tentacruel: 153-180 (42.3 - 49.8%)
-- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 44 SpD Tentacruel: 220-261 (60.9 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 240 HP / 44 SpD Tentacruel: 136-161 (37.6 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 240 HP / 44 SpD Tentacruel: 192-226 (53.1 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery (cant KO back with scald...not a check at all lmao)

252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 240 HP / 44 SpD Tentacruel: 208-246 (57.6 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Draco Plate Dragalge Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 44 SpD Tentacruel: 189-223 (52.3 - 61.7%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Without out any reliable recovery other than sludge it can get widdled by special hitters very easily.

 

[Schpoonman]

Because Aero is a way more threatening Pokemon in general than Suicune is. If Suicune could, in addition to what it normally does, act as an offensive check as well as defensive, lay down Rocks, Defog hazards, have recovery outside of Rest, use Taunt, and outspeed the entire unboosted tier, than yeah, boot Aero right the fuck out of S. But it doesn't. And no, Aero is not "just as vulnerable to priority". Aerodactyl has better bulk in general as well as carrying that crucial ESpeed resist.

I like your double standard of supporting Pidgeot with team members but not supporting Aero. Your opinion that Pidgeot has as little risk and as high of reward as Aero is wrong. Even on Aero's most one dimensional set, Hone Claws, it can pull multiple roles. Pidgeot does its job of "Fuck the opposition with No Guard Hurricane" VERY well, but that's all it does. It has neither the bulk nor the typing to act as even a decent switch-in except on immunities, and its support movepool consists of Tailwind. Aerodactyl is the better Pokemon and unless you want to implement an S+ rank then Pidgeot should stay in A+. And what the fuck is wrong with rehashing what IB said, he's RIGHT and treading over this ground again is relatively pointless. For the record, Aero is a safe switch-in because it resists Pidgeot's two best moves and if we're going to assume Rocks on Aero's side of the field then I'm sure as shit assuming Rocks on Pidgeot's side, and Pidgeot is put in a way worse position if it switches in on Rocks multiple times. Aero can Roost on Entei's Extreme Speed, Pidgeot cannot.

One last thing about Aero vs. Pidgeot that I'd like to bring up: Why does Aero have so fucking many checks and counters as you say and it finds itself in S yet Pidgeot has significantly fewer and has been A+ for so long? I want you to consider the implications of that before YOU rehash the same arguments again.

 

[Adaam]

Just saying Aero and Pidgeot have pretty much the same bulk (Aero only has better Spd only which is irrelevant when it comes to priority). It resists Entei's Espeed but is weak to Gatr Aqua Jets and Lucario Bullet Punches. You can very well say being neutral to Aqua Jet is preferable to resisting Espeed if yor team is weak to Gatr but has Entei checks, and vice versa. That's why they are equally priority weak.

I also don't get your argument about Suicune being less threatening than Aero. So what? The argument is that Pidgeot shouldn't be S since Aero is so prevalent, thus making it's job difficult. Why does it matter that Aero is more versatile? It's versatility has no bearing on how well it checks Pidgeot. Rather, it's commonness (is that a word?) affects how well Pidgeot succeeds. Suicune makes Aero's life miserable and is common. Aero makes Pidgeot's life miserable and is common. The fact that Aero has multiple roles and Suicune is more predictable is irrelevant

Also I can't tell you why Pidgeot has less checks and is A+. That's why I'm advocating a rise lol.

 

[Wanka]

Because Aero is a way more threatening Pokemon in general than Suicune is. If Suicune could, in addition to what it normally does, act as an offensive check as well as defensive, lay down Rocks, Defog hazards, have recovery outside of Rest, use Taunt, and outspeed the entire unboosted tier, than yeah, boot Aero right the fuck out of S. But it doesn't. And no, Aero is not "just as vulnerable to priority". Aerodactyl has better bulk in general as well as carrying that crucial ESpeed resist.

I like your double standard of supporting Pidgeot with team members but not supporting Aero. Your opinion that Pidgeot has as little risk and as high of reward as Aero is wrong. Even on Aero's most one dimensional set, Hone Claws, it can pull multiple roles. Pidgeot does its job of "Fuck the opposition with No Guard Hurricane" VERY well, but that's all it does. It has neither the bulk nor the typing to act as even a decent switch-in except on immunities, and its support movepool consists of Tailwind. Aerodactyl is the better Pokemon and unless you want to implement an S+ rank then Pidgeot should stay in A+. And what the fuck is wrong with rehashing what IB said, he's RIGHT and treading over this ground again is relatively pointless. For the record, Aero is a safe switch-in because it resists Pidgeot's two best moves and if we're going to assume Rocks on Aero's side of the field then I'm sure as shit assuming Rocks on Pidgeot's side, and Pidgeot is put in a way worse position if it switches in on Rocks multiple times. Aero can Roost on Entei's Extreme Speed, Pidgeot cannot.

One last thing about Aero vs. Pidgeot that I'd like to bring up: Why does Aero have so fucking many checks and counters as you say and it finds itself in S yet Pidgeot has significantly fewer and has been A+ for so long? I want you to consider the implications of that before YOU rehash the same arguments again.

With the ability and I hate saying this but with the ability to hax through its defensive checks has been one of the big reasons why pidge is getting more attention as well. It deals with its defensive checks a whole hell of a lot better than aero does. I cant even count how many times I've seen an empoleon or an ampharos go down to a pidegeot if they try to switchin. You cant say the same for aero. Also, you are acting like I said aero was bad which I didn't. Yea clicking hurricane is most commonly what you will see pidgeot be doing which you act like its a bad thing which it isn't and pidgeot is very good at nabbing momentum with u turn due it's fantastic ability to force switches. Also if you read my damn post correctly I didn't say aero was just as vulnerable to priority as pidgeot I said mamo's presence has the same effect on aero as it does with pidgeot, I said nothing about extreemspeed, L2 read imo No where in my post did i say "aero is just as vulnerable to priority". And how is suicune not a threatning mon ?_? if you havn't noticed bulky set up sweepers are some of uu's most threatening mons, and with cunes access to roar it can beat other other bulky sweepers. Cune is an extreme threat to offense with its amazing bulk and a threat to balance as well. And for the love of fuck aero is not a safe switchin...it takes roughly 35% and even more without the mega. If you stay in and decide to stone edge on an incoming check then your aero has now been widdled and cannot come very safely at all anymore. If you decide to roost you lose momentum for your team putting you at a disadvantage as a whole making aero pressured to come in which is what hinders it from being as effective of a check as you think making its presence have less of an effect on pidgeot.

The thing me and gorbachev are really trying to get at here is that one mons presence shouldn't hinder another mons ability to be very effective in a tier as aero is not the most common poke in uu anymore and while it is a check, it is very pressured by pidgeot. If it was the most common than maybe I could see the argument but the fact of the matter is that it isn't which has given the light for pidgeot to do its thing.

 

[Adaam]

I'm the one who mentioned Aero being as vulnerable to priority OG_Wanka

 

[YABO]

Keep Tentacruel in A.

It's not as effective in checking physical threats as Qwilfish is, which is where they traditionally compete, but its tremendous speed for a wall is massively useful. Funnily enough, its presence in the tier is pretty much the lone reason to run Jolly on Tyrantrum, who otherwise would prefer to run Adamant on its Band set, as well as threatening Honchkrow (all the other 100 Base Speed defensive Pokemon have gone to OU), but it being in the tier and a possible threat is pretty huge. Its special bulk is also tremendous, so while its special resistances aren't anything to sneeze at, it can take a lot of neutral special attacks, while only slightly being hindered by its lack of reliable recovery. There's also the bonus of punishing Trick users with Black Sludge. Since Starmie's departure a few months back it's also now the fastest spinner by a rather significant margin, and it is both threatened by and threatens the new toy, Mamoswine. You get KO'd if Mamoswine so much as looks in your direction funny, but it can't switch in for fear of Scald, and should you run some speed to differentiate yourself from Qwilfish (which I would try if I could stand to use stall/semi-stall, where I feel Tentacruel is best used) YOU could potentially switch in on Mamoswine and then force it out with Scald. Not that they'd be expecting speedy Tentacruel, but that's half the fun of so much natural speed on a defensive Pokemon. Keep it A.

Tentacruel kinda sucks. When teambuilding, a bulky water's #1 job is to beat Fire-Spam, particularly Entei. Tenta doesn't do that. Sure, laying TSpikes and Rapid Spinning is well and good but there are multiple other ways to clear hazards available aside from Tenta. The speed argument is a little bit shaky here. As I previously mentioned, you're already in hot water vs Entei and other Fires (ha) due to your shitty physical bulk and shitty SpA. A rank is supposed to be for the best of the tier. Stuff you can slap onto pretty much anything. When you chuck Tenta on a team you are forced to either double up on your Electric weakness with something like a Suicune or to add Snorlax or another Entei answer (even with this you have to be careful as you'll need a better fighting resist for the same reasons you need Snorlax). The metagame these days is primarily physical. Special attackers we see are more focused on wall breaking than back when Tenta was good. Nowadays we see LO Drei instead of Scarf pretty much exclusively. Having base 60 Defense is just too perilous right now especially since its "key resists" don't really mean much, allowing for 2-3hkos from the tiers most common members of those types.

 

[nv]

Ok so here are my thoughts on the current possible changes for the rankings:

Mega Bird Jesus Pidgeot to S: I agree with this because whenever I teambuild I always have to prepare for this thing and as such I feel it should be S-rank. It also is easily the next best Mega after Mega Aerodactyl, one of the common checks to MPidge. The only opportunity cost of Mega Pidgeot is not using Mega Aeordactyl. The confusion from Hurricane can also allow MPidge to hax its way through some of its checks, making them not as reliable as they should be. Move to S

Mega Beedrill to A+: I do not think that this deserves a rise. The fact that it is very reliant on Protect means it loses out on a coverage moves. Granted Adaptability gives it a ton of power in its STABs, it is using weak coverage unless it is SE. Also with priority running rampant right now in the form of Mamoswine's Ice Shard, I feel it's bulk is really coming under the microscope here, so I feel it should stay A-rank.

Tentacruel to A-: This is a very controversial move but I believe it needs to be done. Tentacruel is a Water-type that cannot check Fire spam (kind of like Vaporeon which was one of the arguments to why it is not that high on the viability rankings). While it can absorb T-Spikes, lay down its own T-Spikes, and spin away hazards, it just doesn't have as much staying power as it should. I believe A- is perfect for it as it is one of the better spinners, but its stats coupled with its typing just doesn't work in its favor. Move to A-

Mienshao to A: I feel like this shouldn't be discussed as right now, Mienshao is probably the best Scarfer in the tier with an ability that boosts its STAB move allowing to spam it solidly once Fighting resists are gone while getting the speed boost from Scarf. It also has U-turn gaining great momentum for the team and wearing the opponent down. This is a great Scarfer and while it isn't too versatile (LO is a bit meh as it is outsped by a lot of mons without Scarf) it does its job perfectly. Keep in A+

 

[Lapras!]

Alright no reason to get this heated over simple viability rankings, which are after all completely subjective. Any further posts that don't actually discuss viability are gonna be deleted.

Here are a couple nominations that have come up in the council discussion that we'd like to see some more thoughts on: Mega Pidgeot to S, Mega Beedrill to A, Tentacruel to A-, Mienshao to A. Anything relevant about Sceptile has probably already been stated at this point so we should move on from that and the VR council will have a decision on that next time we make changes. Of course you're still welcome to nominate and discuss other things, such as Snorlax to A+.

I'm still in the dark as to why Blissey moving up is not even being discussed. B- is just too low - it's ridiculous when you consider this pokemon is on probably 2/3 of all stall teams in high ladder UU. Stall is underestimated in UU at the moment and Semi-Stall is definitely viable in this meta and Blissey works on both these styles. It deserves B+ or at least B IMO.

 

[jamashawalker]

Azelf B+ to A-

I agree with this. Not even because it's a very fast special attacker but it is also one of UU's hardest physical hitters. Some random fun facts about Azelf's physical power which catch people off guard

• It sports the 2nd strongest explosion in the tier(2nding only Glalie and on the same power as M Steelix)
• It has the 2nd strongest U-turn in the tier. 2nd only to beedrill and tying with Meinshao
• It learns knock off as well as a large physical movepool.
• Zen Headbutt deals good damage coming off a 125 Atk.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

I agree with pretty much all the changes dod brought up I won't go into detail since most of what I would say is just a rehash of my past posts or others right above me however I am unsure about mienshao. Mienshao is honestly way too easy to play around early and even mid game, this has been made even more true by some of our new additions/meta trends like bulk mence or qwil who really hurt mienshaos power factor lately it has been much more of a revenge killer. Frankly I would fully understand the drop suggested and I almost support it but I question if it's role as a solid scarfer is enough to keep it A+ so either way I wouldn't complain as of now

 

[Wanka]

I honestly really like the idea of azelf moving up to A-. Azelf is a staple lead on hyper offensive teams and does a very good job at getting rocks up and preventing them while forcing opponents to have to play around its sash. With the idea that opponents are forced to play around its sash, its offensive presence has become extremely threatening as shown by players like dodmen and my boy Cnorth26. Its fantastic speed and coverage make it an extreme threat to some cores and bulky offense. All of that paired with nasty plot can make it a deadly sweeper/cleaner as well. This makes azelf a very unpredictable and versatile mon making it a very viable candidate to hop up into the A rankings.

 

[dodmen]

Azelf already moved up to A- friends, read Meru's post on page 22.

Edit: Blissey and Umbreon are some more nominations that could possibly use more discussion.

 

[Relaxed Dedenne]

New Meta

Some things to think about:

Espeon: With Alakazam gone, the urge for a fast offensive psychic type allows room for espeon to get more use. Of coarse Alakazam had some really good niches over espeon such as FB and encore, but Espeon does tend to fill some of its roles along with providing a team with Magic bounce support.

Stoutland: Pretty much medicore. Moving down is inevitable.

Mega Abomasnow: This one is tricky. On one hand people might be using slowcloak Mamo where Aboma might see some more usage. On the other hand, Mamo is a go to for ice shard as it doesnt require a mega slot and has a powerful stab EQ. Both have great niches in the meta. I just dont know if Mamo will bring it up or allow to see no usage.

The only thing Stoutland Had for it was sandrush, and with Hippodown Leaving, its absolutly terrible in Uu

 

[Nightingales]

With the prevalence of Ice, Dark, and Rock now dominating the tier, I think Lucario stands to gain some ground (at least with the special sets) when it comes to viability. Vacuum Wave does over half with timid (modest just shuts it down with everything if it switches even into a wave. NP OHKOs it, and when it outspeeds if it is timid, aura sphere and flash cannon both ruin the beast's day.

Both Flash Cannon and Aura Sphere OHKO Mega Abomasnow with rocks if modest. The only real recent drop that can handle it somewhat is Mandibuzz, only getting to 2HKO range if Luc gets NP off with modest itself.

Everything here is assuming Life Orb, since what are you gonna do, Specs Lucario?

 

[TheMCGamer13]

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Clawitzer from Unranked to at least C
I have used Clawitzer and I can firmly say that it is a Pokemon that never lets me down. It gets great coverage with all of its pulse moves which are boosted by Mega Launcher to get powered up to a respectable amount. Clawitzer has never let me down in terms of power. The only problem I can see is it not being to bulky and its saddening speed. This is why I think Clawitzer should at leastbe C-rank though I think it could be B-.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

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Clawitzer from Unranked to at least C
I have used Clawitzer and I can firmly say that it is a Pokemon that never lets me down. It gets great coverage with all of its pulse moves which are boosted by Mega Launcher to get powered up to a respectable amount. Clawitzer has never let me down in terms of power. The only problem I can see is it not being to bulky and its saddening speed. This is why I think Clawitzer should at leastbe C-rank though I think it could be B-.

As much as i love Clawitzer, it's just outclassed by Mega Blastoise except in terms of power, but power doesn't make everything, and Clawitzer's power still isn't enough to break through some bulky waters. Keep Unranked

 

[Nightingales]

I disagree. I use Clawitzer frequently, and all I can say is that Mega Launcher provides plenty of power and it has a somewhat good amount of HP (at least in my eyes.) while not taking up a mega slot that can be used for something like Bird Jesus or MAero.

Clawitzer > At least C

 

[Ducem]

C sounds like a great spot for our jumbo shrimp friend. With fire spam somehow making it into a tier full of bulky waters, as well as krook and mamo giving UU some company, clawtizer can add a bit of pressure to some teams. Not to mention that, like Nightingales stated, it doesn't cost a mega slot. Which is always nice.

 

[Chamaeleon]

Clawitzer only hits 217 with a modest nature which is way to slow to keep up with wall breaking in uu. You are forced to run modest because then you cant break efficiently without it. Also, due to Clawitzers poor speed, it easily loses to hyper offensive teams which are slowly becoming more popular from what I have seen. There are far better options then Clawitzer for a Wall Breaker. Clawitzer also gets worned to easy through entry hazards and life orb, which makes it a non efficient wall breaker due to how easy it is to revenge kill, even outside of priority moves. Keep Unranked.

 

[Sacri']

A → A+
Swampert is just fantastic. This pokemon has an awesome natural bulk paired with a huge attack stat, and is able to set rocks while being able to sweep a whole team itself thanks to the Rain Dance + Swift Swim combo. However, Swampert-Mega can still run other cool sets, such as the SR + 3 Attacks or the standard defensive RestTalk. It's great bulk allows it to take any unboosted hit from the most powerful pokemons of the metagame as well as KOing most of them back. All these factors explain why is Swampert-Mega good in litterally every playstyle. HOs enjoys it's late game clean ability, balanced teams appreciates it's good bulk and its great sheer power and especially its ability to block Volt Switches, seeing as how threatning VoltTurn teams might be for them. Its main check is basically Suicune, which is really popular in UU but yeah its way too easy to check. Whimsicott is also a really good check but it's scared by ice punch, same deal for Salamence. Under the Rain Dance up check Swampert become very hard to handle for the current metagame and can easily get rid one of its biggest check; Porygon2 that has a lot of chances to be 2HKOd by a Rain-boosted Waterfall. The most reliable checks I can see right now are pretty much Suicune, Abomasnow-Mega and Cresselia. Oh, and it appreciates a lot Heliolisk as a teammates, seeing as how greatly it lures in most of Swampert's grass-type checks with its STAB-boosted Hyper Voice.

 

[Dratios]

I'm all for a Mega Swampert rise. It covers a lot, if not all the tier with Ice Punch, EQ, and Waterfall, freeing up a moveslot for Rain Dance, SR, or even Roar. Mega Swampert deserves A or A+ imo.

Also, I'm not really sure where to put this (I'm kinda new to the forums :P) but if Trevenant is so ridiculously bad in UU shouldn't it just be dropped to RU lol

 

[Wish9]

B → B+
I've been using Honchkrow a lot lately and it always served me well. Now yes, it does have flaws in its below average speed, mediocre defenses, a Stealth Rock weakness, other priority users (despite having a strong priority move itself in Sucker Punch), and its tendency to over rely on Sucker Punch to mitigate its speed issues. The reason why it should rise? NOTHING SWITCHES IN EXCEPT MEGA AMPHAROS AND MEGA AGGRON (Cresselia to an extent)! It has an amazing movepool that allows it to cover would-be counters like Rhyperior and Empoleon with moves such as Superpower and Heat Wave. It even gets Pursuit to trap slower Psychics such as Slowking (a relevant threat in the current meta), or if you want, you could run a set consisting of Substitute and Roost to last longer along with its Dual STAB at the cost of some coverage as it also prevents Honchkrow from getting revenge killed. Even if Honchkrow can't sweep by itself, it can use its powerful wallbreaking capabilities to wear down checks that it may or may not share with teammates, bulky waters in particular appreciate Honchkrow's ability to remove non-substitute Heliolisk, especially Mega Blastoise since it supports Honchkrow by getting rid of Rocks, Bird Jesus (Mega Pidgeot), Lord Zap (Mega Amphy), and Anti-Offense (Mega Aero) also appreciate Honchkrow wearing down their checks. Below are some calcs of its power.


252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Heliolisk: 305-360 (115 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO, only other bird that can hit Heliolisk and OHKO before getting hit is Aerodactyl.


252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Empoleon: 406-478 (109.1 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 218-257 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, technically Rhyperior can switch in once but without reliable recovery, teammates have no trouble killing it.


252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Slowking: 361-429 (91.8 - 109.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO


252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Slowking: 270-320 (68.7 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 164 Def Slowking: 182-218 (46.3 - 55.4%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, Slowking is forced to play mind games with Honchkrow and one mistake will end it.


EDIT: A handful of people actually think Honchkrow shouldn't rise because "it's weak to Mamoswine." Hello? It's hard to make a team without being weak to Mamoswine even without Honchkrow and I'm pretty sure everyone wants both Mamoswine and Feraligatr to get suspected. Overall, in the hands of a smart player, Honchkrow can be one of their greatest assets.