Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Eraxxer]

Going back to my Dugtrio -> C Rank nom from a while back, I don't have a huge list of replays due to having very little free time at the moment, but I've gone ahead and made a Dugtrio team and literally the very first game I played, Dugtrio paved the way to win.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-232062439

I would love to post more replays on Duggie but I simply don't have the time. But really, it's so goddamn good as an Altaria partner, a Volcarona partner, a Mega Pidgeot partner, Mega Gardevoir partner, Specs Sylveon partner and so on. It traps and has SE STAB coverage on everything that resists fairy (Poison, Steel, Fire excluding Levitators and Flying types obviously) and the fact that Heatran is so ridiculously common in the current meta, plus the fact that a ton of things it can team up with to trap also benefit from Memento, it's just really damn good in the current meta (And by really damn good I don't mean actually amazing, I just mean better than C-). Compared to things like Emboar that it shares a rank with, which is an incredibly niche and generally underwhelming Pokemon, I'd say Duggie stands out as definitely deserving of going to C.

 

[eden]

Why do people act like Meye is only a stall mon? Meye hazard stack is an excellent playstyle and any competent player will account for the fairy types that Meye hates so much. Ches/MEye/Lando-T/Jirachi/Starmie/Talonflame, looks like a semi standard Meye team and notice one thing...it def ain't stall!

 

[Martin]

I'm just gonna make two nominations that are directly linked to one another.

Huntail - Unranked-->D
Gorebyss - D-->Unranked

The reason I say this is that Huntail can now use Sucker Punch and Shell Smash in conjunction, meaning that (unlike Gorebyss) it isn't hindered in its role so much by its low speed. There isn't really much else to say about them as they are so similar, but IMO Huntail simply does Gorebyss' job better now.

 

[Kutscher]

why exploud is unlisted now? i know it faces competition with specs sylveon, but he have a good small niche, the list of pokemons that like to switch into a boomburst is really small, and he have an option to it all this mons(overheat/surf/focus miss), in sticky web teams he really destroy the other teams, being able of come in form of a revenge kill and obligate the enemy to sacrifice someone, and this is a really cool thing.

 

[p2]

why exploud is unlisted now? i know it faces competition with specs sylveon, but he have a good small niche, the list of pokemons that like to switch into a boomburst is really small, and he have an option to it all this mons(overheat/surf/focus miss), in sticky web teams he really destroy the other teams, being able of come in form of a revenge kill and obligate the enemy to sacrifice someone, and this is a really cool thing.

Well, Sticky Web teams just aren't that viable anymore and its other niche is in Trick Room, which kinda sucks. Although, it hits really hard, it's just held back by its mediocre bulk, typing and speed.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Jumping on board with a nomination that should've happened a long-ass time ago. At least, in my opinion, it should have.

Huntail (Unranked) -> D/C- | This has been covered a lot, but Huntail's priority in Sucker Punch is a big fucking deal for any SmashPassing roles you attempt to use this guy for, as it allows Huntail to bypass Scarfers, the biggest threats to these somewhat slow boosters. After a boost, Waterfall hurts like Hell and can give a clutch flinch to let this guy put in more work. It still suffers from being slow and not the most reliable niche Pokémon, but Huntail can work as both a SmashPasser and mixed attacker, the latter set giving it some surprise value. The rank is dependent on Gorebyss's rank: If Gorebyss stays D, then Huntail should be C-. If Gorebyss is unranked, D suits Huntail. Anyway, it should definitely be ranked above its counterpart.

I may update this post with more noms later. Peace, everyone.

 

[Kutscher]

exploud still have a niche, is a small niche, but he is one of the best sticky web teams mons, it's really hard to counter it, and things like chansey are always destroyed by bisharp, who is always on SW teams, also even if SW teams aren't that good now, they still a viable playstile.

 

[Taliheim]

exploud still have a niche, is a small niche, but he is one of the best sticky web teams mons, it's really hard to counter it, and things like chansey are always destroyed by bisharp, who is always on SW teams, also even if SW teams aren't that good now, they still a viable playstile.

We aren't arguing that it has a niche; it's just the fact that since its only niche is in Sticky Web, and that Sticky Web is pretty terrible right now, we decided that this niche was not enough to justify its ranking. If you want to get it back on, don't argue its niche, but instead why that niche is worth getting it ranked; in other words, tell us why the niche is relevant in the current metagame (and at the moment, Sticky Web is not relevant).

 

[Kutscher]

also ludicolo should come back to D rank, he can remove any common rain check, including suicune(witch seismitoad can't), also it's 4x resistence to water is a relly good thing, since almost any rain sweeper recive neutral damage to water, he can also check breloom, witch have a good momentum when the rain stops. i know ludicolo have comebacks(weak to talonflame, and can recive priority t-wave), but he still deserve a spot in D rank

 

[jordanthejq12]

If you really want to talk about Ludicolo, don't forget about its ability to check opposing rain sweepers while using the rain itself. Having a 4x effective move on Kabutops, Omastar, and Mega Swampert--three of the most prolific rain attackers in the tier--isn't a small feat at all. (Though this scenario is only likely to arise should two rain teams face each other, and you probably have to live an Ice move.)

But at this point it's not enough to simply "have a niche". Exploud is certainly one of the hardest-hitting Trick Room attackers you can get, especially given the relative lack of Ghosts and complete absence of Soundproof mons. However, Trick Room as a playstyle is waning at the moment--that's why Camerupt, arguably the best mega a TR team can get, dropped. The reason stuff like Glalie, Exploud, and Ludicolo fell off the chart entirely is not because they're bad Pokemon at all--Refrigerate Explosion, Boomburst, and Giga Drain against Swampert or Kabutops hurts--but because what they do, their niche, is, at this point in the meta, irrelevant.

(Pangoro, for its part, has a Scrappy Superpower that can one-shot Mega Sableye, but Scrappy Boomburst can pull that off as well. Fair enough. Pangoro, however, has STAB Knock Off, typing that actually resists things (alongside the Psychic immunity), and a much better attacking tier at base 124.)

 

[Kutscher]

i understand that TR is a really specific playstyle, but exploud have another uses(SW and a regular Wallbreaker), this should be the reason to be at D rank, and i still think that the Utility that Ludicolo brings is really nice, he can remove threats to Rain Teams and Sweep, or make a scenario to a friend Sweep, also he can remove any other Swift Swim mon(exept from Kingdra).

 

[p2]

I thought Ludicolos main niche was a Rain sweeper that could break past Ferrothorn?

Either way, so this isn't just a one liner, I want to bring up discussion on Haxorus. I don't know why it's all the way down in D rank, and I think it should move up to C-.
I've been using the Dragon Dance set for a while and it's pretty good. Reason I'm not using Dnite or Gyarados is that Haxorus has a better speed tier and doesn't really have 4MSS when it comes to beating Fairies, I don't really know how to put it, but it's a lot harder to fit Iron Head on Dragonite or Gyarados than it is Poison Jab on Haxorus. Plus, Haxorus doesn't have a Stealth Rock weakness and it has more immediate power, which instantly threatens things like Clefable or Sylveon. It's been a really good late-game cleaner when it can find setup opportunities against weaker moves like HP Ices, boost with DD and win. I definitely think it deserves to get moved up from D rank to around C-.

tl;dr better speed tier, Mold Breaker, it can easily afford to run coverage for fairies, no SR weakness, more immediate power than DDers like Dragonite or Gyarados and it can even opt for Swords Dance

I'll post a couple ladder replays where Haxorus has worked really well and has just completely cleaned up slower teams or managed to pick up a DD and win.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-232077799
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-232072034

 

[Kutscher]

ludicolo can deal with ferrothorn, azumaril, suicune, defensive seismitoad, other swift swimers and can sweep easly(just like any other rain sweeper), he have more utility than venusaur, who can act only for 3 turns(and is listed)

 

[Jaroda]

While Haxorus is C- potential (I oscillate back and forth between it and D), it's DD set is not the reason why. A simple set of Swords Dance, Outrage, Poison Jab and Earthquake is enough to destroy and otherwise bulky or defensive pivot outside of Skarmory, which you'd want Superpower or Taunt for. But it needs the power of Swords Dance to accomplish this admittedly impressive feat. I posted a ton of calcs just two pages back showing what it can eliminate for the rest of your team. Haxorus is one of the best candidates for Double Dragon offense because of its ability to tear through would be checks for the other Dragons like Unaware Clefable, Quagsire, Slowbro, Heatran, Togekiss, Azumarill, etc. All within its standard moveset no less. The reason you'd use Dragonite over Haxorus as a Dragon Dance user is because it has Extremespeed and Multiscale. It has a much easier time setting up and has a tool for priority users. Gyarados, Mega Gyarados in particular, is just much much bulkier and forces switches with Intimidate, also having a much easier time setting up and can actually take a hit or two when it has to.

 

[trc]

everyone seems to be saying sd haxorus is the only viable one but I think dd is better

 

[AM]

Yeah this is sudden but might as well put them down now instead of waiting two weeks for changes that were just confirmed. Also once again let's show our support for trc and his quality posts as always.

Whimsicott: C- > C
Dugtrio: C- > C
Blastoise Mega: C > C+
Infernape: C+ > B-
Kyurem: C- > C
Emboar: C- > D
Mamoswine: A- > B+
Chesnaught: B+ > B
Cresselia: B- > C+

Another discussion finished with some changes we thought should take place so went ahead with them. Discussion now is going to be whatever you think requires a rank change so feel free to bring these up back to their original position or lower. I'm also gonna bring up some stuff that was mentioned in the convos.

Reasoning

Whimsicott - Fast utility sets are solid for Hyper Offensive teams, with attack and utility moves. More reasonable to be in C.

Dugtrio - Traps a bunch of important threats in the meta like Tyranitar and Volcarona that helps necessitate a sweep and or helps a partner take advantage of Dugtrios support traits. Same deal with Whimsicott, looks more C than C-.

Mega Blastoise - Can threaten both hazard removers and hazard setters with solid power behind it to break conventional slower balanced builds.

Infernape: Some claimed it was high C+ low B- anyways. It was sort of teetering between the two ranks even when it rose but I noticed a lot of teams kind of just unprepared for this thing, defensive set is clutch now cause Weavile is a huge pain, and ranking guys supported this so this is going through.

Kyurem: basically its just a specially based kyu-b, sub roost lets it play the role as a balancebreaker and can pressure stall a lot as well threaten with ib+epower. ive seen some ppl use choice sets which weren't bad. - ben

Emboar: hype has died down, outclassed by nape, hits hard and has good off stabs+prio but that's all really - ben

Mamoswine:

Mamo dropping

ben gay: mamo seems so out of place in A- rn cuz of rank inflation so I think that's a given
ben gay: it even dropped to uu if that means anything
AM: mamo could drop to B+
AM: it's actually threatened by a lot
AM: but
AM: it threatens slower builds
AM: I wouldn't put it on the level of kyurem-b and I think kyurem-b is good in A-
ben gay: weav or kyu-b are the premier ice types

Chesnaught: Food for a bunch of the tier. It was getting a lot of hype for raises during that Chesnaught trend everyone was having but the nature of ORAS makes its defensive set somewhat match up based, while BD set is not enough for it to maintain its B rank position in the first place.

Cresselia: Same reason to why it dropped to B- in the last post on Page 19. Comes back to being a pretty team specific asset.

So with all that said feel free to suggest whatever at this point. Gonna address some stuff we didn't agree with just by our discussions or just general stuff for a discussion point.

M-Sharpedo Dropping

ben gay: why would pedo drop
AM: well
AM: pedo dropping is
ben gay: o_o
AM: for emphasis on a lot of team support
AM: which I agree with to an extent
ben gay: I think not
ben gay: well
ben gay: it can quite ezily late game sweep, which is its role for offense or to early game wallbreak and punch holes if the opponent is rocking bulkier builds
ben gay: sure it has 1 chance after it mega evos but that's all it rly needs
ben gay: its resistant to most priority
AM: I mean
AM: like half
AM: lol
ben gay: and can get past its checks n counters through ice fang/poison jab
ben gay: its like a more offensive mega gyara
AM: real men and women don't use
AM: protect sharpedo though

Wobb Raise

AM: people have been wondering about
AM: wobb raise
AM: but idk
ben gay: nah
ben gay: hm
AM: like custap is cool and all but not exactly sure if it really pushes it
AM: custap dbond that is
ben gay: yeah unless they have rly good rsning and replays then no
AM: fair enough

Huntail

ben gay: am is it just me or are ppl actually noming gorebyss to drop and huntail to rise .-.
AM: yeah
AM: that's happening
AM: lol
ben gay: they said sucker punch
ben gay: but idek what that hits
ben gay: id prefer scald or surf since u get relevant ohkos/2hkos
AM: there logic is that it lets you to ko something so you're not threatened by a scarfer or revenge killer before you past a boost
ben gay: gorebyss's filler
ben gay: is either ice beam or sub
AM: lol
AM: gorebyss STAB alone
ben gay: both of which can deal with what it needs to
ben gay: no replays either

Alakazam

ben gay: o and id prefer regular zam in B+
ben gay: looks better, any rsn not
AM: I said I'm open to the idea but didn't want to be too hasty when I raised it

Rain

ben gay: also does anyone else think that rain has kind of worsened over the course of oras
ben gay: its becoming more and more matchup based than it was in xy
AM: I don't think it's worsened more so people stopped putting emphasis on entire rain teams and will normally use rain cores
ben gay: oh?
ben gay: id like to see good teams of that
AM: like they'll usually have
ben gay: I find it hard to justify toed
AM: politoed + swift swimmer
AM: and then like standard stuff behind it
ben gay: as a partial member of a team rather full on offensive rain
ben gay: cuz it would be a useless slot otherwise
ben gay: er
AM: idk that can be brought up as well discussion

Manaphy

ben gay: manaphy to S is something im neutral to but is something to note, mamoswine to B+, zam to B+, cress can go lower(to niche even for stall), some ppl want nape to B- but im neutral to that
AM: Manaphy to S
AM: is really shaky
trc: I think manaphy is high a+
trc: and not s
ben gay: yeah im leaning mana a+ but it doesn't hurt to bring it up as discussion
ben gay: like id consider a +3 manaphy as difficult to switch into as a cb azu
ben gay: its hard to draw a line
trc: the key difference of setup though
trc: yet walled by less
trc: and more unpredictable
ben gay: I wouldn't call that a factor when there rly isn't much at all that can switch into cb azu lol
AM: cb azu is just
AM: aids

Gastrodon

BKC: gastrodon is excellent
BKC: sr resistant scald immune not pursuit weak keld counter? sign me up
BKC: subcm troubles it a bit but its less immediately threatening so its more than fine
BKC: also shutting down the electrics is soooooo nice
AM: yeah I haven't really used gastrodon but replays were good so a move up at least once was kind of a given.
BKC: ive used it a bit in xy
BKC: and its sort of like vap/sdef jira/quag/hippo/pert in dpp
BKC: some teams are just walled sooooo hard

 

[Celticpride]

So quick thing about Manaphy to S, what would be the more upper limit in terms of amount of S rank mons? From my viewpoint S should be a meta defining sort of thing but at what point does the meaning of meta defining get diluted too much? I also saw something about rank inflation from skimming the wall of text above so just curious on the ranking teams thoughts on that AM

 

[AM]

So quick thing about Manaphy to S, what would be the more upper limit in terms of amount of S rank mons? From my viewpoint S should be a meta defining sort of thing but at what point does the meaning of meta defining get diluted too much? I also saw something about rank inflation from skimming the wall of text above so just curious on the ranking teams thoughts on that AM

Right now nobody agrees with Manaphy going to S more or less for what you said, ranking team wise, except for what I assume would be a very vocal minority. An example would be like stating, "oh this is broken so it's S" something like that. Rank inflation for stuff that is higher than they should be and is only that high for being their for awhile, such as Mamoswine in this case. It's not an enormous concern like it was before since stuff higher up was cleaned up to be more accurate, or at least that's what I've been told / have been seeing but when people make ridicolous noms for something to go up or get ranked at a certain place for some random arbitrary reason then that's sort of how the term rank inflation gets coined in our convos.

Edit: Upper limit I wouldn't care about as long as they clearly hit the S rank criteria. My own personal opinion I think S is fine right now as is the upper ranks in general, as in Manaphy is fine in A+.

 

[ManOfMany]

Ludicolo definitely deserves to be ranked.

I would even say C- is good for it (especially considering Kabutops, Kingdra, and Omastar at B). It is a huge asset to rain teams as a swift swimmer that removes bulky waters such as Rotom-W, Azumarill, Gastrodon, Slowbro and also messes with opposing rain teams by being able to switch into and OHKO both MegaPert and Omastar. All of the other swift swimmers simply cannot OHKO these pokemon even with heavy layers of hazards on the fields, and Ludicolo removes them admirably.

I wouldn't say it lacks power at all. In fact, it is very comparable to standard special Kingdra- it only has 5 less special attack, and just replaces a dragon STAB with a grass STAB. Ludicolo has perfect coverage with its dual STABs and ice beam. It also has focus blast to KO Ferrothorn if it switches in on Hydro Pump (although unreliable, it is still better than what Kingdra can do.) I would probably use it over Kingdra 3 times out of 10. It loses the ability to tank Talonflame's hit at full health and OHKO the Lati twins for the ability to wipe out Rotom-W, Azumarill, and the much-hyped Gastrodon and deal with opposing weather (checks rain and resists Excadrill's STABs), as well as a decent chance to lure and remove Ferrothorn. It's a valid trade-off.

EDIT: It also checks the "S-rank" Manaphy even when rain is off the field.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ludicolo: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Energy Ball vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 330-390 (91.4 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

(Energy Ball > Giga Drain because in OU you need the power)

 

[DarkNostalgia]

I wholeheartedly agree with Alakazam to B+. Looking at B rank right now, nothing really can compare with the sheer power, Speed, and utility Alakazam brings to the table, and of course I'm comparing it to the offensive 'mons in the rank, such as Mega Beedrill, Mega Sceptile, Conkeldurr, Crawdaunt etc.
Alakazam is a pain in the ass to deal with across all playstyles. It's Life Orb set is really powerful, and 2HKOes the entire tier bar bulkier stuff with the typing to check it such as Mandibuzz or Sableye. And it certainly has the Speed to do so, outpacing key stuff such as Starmie and Latios, and plenty of utility options such as Taunt and Encore. It's certainly not on the level of stuff like Crawdaunt and Mega Beedrill.
Focus Sash sets are also very adept at revenge killing, dealing with huge threats such as RP Landorus and SD Talonflame, and fits nicely on offense, which would otherwise struggle with these aforementioned threats. Thunder Wave is great utility to slow down threats such as Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria.

 

[Albacore]

Alakazam to B+

Yeah, this thing probably fits in B+. It kinda reminds me of Torn-T or Offensive Starmie in the sense that it’s both super fast and actually kinda hard to switch into. Of course, it’s frailer, more vulnerable to priority, has a worse typing, and its main STAB isn’t nearly as spammable as for the other two, but despite all that it’s a pretty big threat to offense which relies on priority to revenge kill it and usually loses at least one Pokemon to the Sash set, and balance which doesn’t really have switchins for the LO set beyond SpD Clefable. Sash TWave also acts as a pseudo-Thundurus suicide check to sweepers which is neat. Zam doesn't seem out of place at all alongside the likes of Hydreigon and Victini.

Okay I have a bunch of noms here, most of them I'm not totally sold on so take these with a grain of salt, they're mainly here to promote discussion :

Latios to A

I really feel like Latios’s effectiveness in OU has slowly dwindled since the beginning of ORAS, and now I don’t see it as on par with the rest of A+. Everything threatening it counteracts is mitigated by the fact that teams which employ Lati-weak methods almost always come prepared for it. Yes, it is a good Landorus check. It is also a Pokemon which every competent Landorus team has good means to take out, usually involving Pursuit trapping. The same applies to spike and hazard-stacking teams. Meanwhile, Latios is beaten by a lot of popular Pokemon. There’s obviously Metagross and Clefable, 2 S ranks which deal with it really well, but you’ve also got Bisharp, Scarf TTar, Mega Scizor, Mega Altaria (doesn’t really counter it since Psyshock 2HKOs the majority of variants, but it’s not like Latios enjoys this mon’s presence either). Yes it has coverage to beat its checks, but it can’t run that and Defog and recovery, which means it has to either sacrifice a large portion of its utility or the ability to actually consistently handle the stuff it checks over the course of a battle. As an offensive hazard remover with defensive applications, I don’t really think it’s better than Starmie at this point in time.

And yes, everything here apllies to Latias too. I’m less convinced about Latias deserving to drop to A- rank too given that Healing Wish is pretty fantastic and Reflect Type is a very good option to have too, but I can also see it drop on pretty much the same grounds.

Conkeldurr to B-

This thing is just kinda mediocre and seems a bit out of place in the same rank as Pokemon like Reuniclus or Scizor which offer good defensive capabilities while also being pretty offensively threatening. Unfortunately, Conk doesn’t really do that, or at least not both at once.

First of all, the AV set is just not very good. Yeah, it switches in on a few things like Thundurus, Heatran, Rotom-W, Bisharp, Ferrothorn and Gengar on a good day but it’s just so easy to check. It’s supposed to be a threat to offensive teams, but even against those you have stuff like Talonflame, Metagross, Azumarill, Altaria, Torn-T, Latios, Starmie, Gardevoir which switch in on most of its moves. And yes, you can hit some of them with a coverage move, but Conk is heavily pressured to pick the exact right move because of its low speed. And unfortunately, a good number of offensive teams will have multiple Conk checks, so you need to guess which one is coming in, and even if you get it right, Conk still took damage by coming in, was unable to get HP back via Drain Punch, is forced out and now can’t come back in again. Add that to the fact that it’s often pressure to Mach Punch against stuff like Bisahrp and it can be very difficult for Conk to actually do anything And that’s not even talking about Conk’s poor performance against any balanced or stall team which has multiple ways to deal with it easily.

Then there’s the LO Sheer Force set which does a good job of being able to threaten checks like Azumarill, Clefable, Skarmory and the like. But not only does it need to invest in speed to outpace these slower pokemon, therefore forfeiting any ability to properly switch into anything, but it’s still really really slow and easily checked by anything offensive, which makes it poor against offense. So yeah, I don’t see Conkeldurr as better than stuff like Infernape, Feraligatr, Tyrantrum, or Sylveon.

Rain (specifically Politoed and Kingdra)

I don’t really have much of an opinion on Rain’s effectiveness in general, and since I’ve never used it I might be talking out of my ass here, but I will say this : I have yet toever see a single rain team without Kingdra. I have no reason to believe that, unlike Mega Swampert or even Kabutops, there is any reason to use Rain without Kingdra. And I get that Politoed is 100% essential on rain and that Kingdra technically isn’t, but if you can’t justify running one Pokemon without another and vice-versa, wouldn’t that make them worthy of the same rank in viability?

Gliscor to A

I’m not really sure about Gliscor's A+ rank worthiness as this point in the metagame. A couple of months when SD Gliscor was still a novelty ago definitely, definitely, but now? As it turns out, Gliscor has the unfortunate distinction of a) being a special wall with a 4x weakness and b) being annoying enough to prompt certain players to dedicate a moveslot on some of their Pokemon just to break past it. This means HP Ice. HP Ice on Landorus primarily, but also HP Ice (or Icy Wind I guess) on Gengar, HP Ice on Torndaus-T, Ice Beam on Clefable. I wouldn’t even be surprised to see an HP Ice Diancie one of these days. And now, Gliscor can’t reliably handle a lot of the stuff it sed to be able to. It’s stil la good physical wall, but one of the main things which made it A+ rank was its specail walling capabilities, which have become compromised recently by this rise in Ice coverage intended not just for it, but also Landorus. It’s just not as reliable as it used to be, and feels more on par with Hippowdon to me

Keldeo to A+

Probably a controversial nom and I’m really unsure about it myself, but still decided to bring it up because I could see it happening at this point. It’s never been a secret that Keldeo is fairly easy to check. It doesn’t have the best speed and its dual STAB is resisted by a pretty large number of Pokemon. Despite that, its ability to outlast its checks via Scald burns as well as the defensive utility it provided made it an S rank threat. But I feel like recently, Keldeo has a harder time both fitting on teams and actually putting it work. For some reason, I feel like the power level within the OU tier has gone up in recent months, even if no Pokemon actually got released, probably beucase we’re starting to see the true potential of a bunch of Pokemon, and Keldeo has a hard time catching up since we pretty much know everything it has to offer at this point. Manaphy provides pretty intense competition for it, taking its place as the token bulky water on a lot of teams since it doubles up as a phenomenal wallbreaker and Water-resist-weakener. Keldeo is the premier Bisharp counter in the tier, and yet Tankchomp is extremely popular and already serves as a good Bisharp killer, so Keldeo isn’t as necessary for handling it as before. It’s checked by Mega Altaria, Tornadus-T, Alakazam, and Reuniclus, four increasingly popular and dangerous Pokemon. All in all, I think that recent metagame trends give us sufficient grounds for a Keldeo drop to be at least discussed, even if, as I said, I’m really on the fence myself.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Mega Pedo: Being able to break through Azu or Keldeo on its own gives it a neat niche over Mega Gyarados, but it does face some competition from it. Still, ranking it below Crawdaunt and putting it equal with Feraligatr is kinda nonsensical, so it should stay.

Wobb: Pretty goddamn annoying. Coupled with something like Mega Gyarados or Mega Charizard, it can remove their counters and give them a free DD. I don't really have any replays to back it up atm tho, I'll probably make up a team today and see if I can provide

Huntail: M-muh sucker punch argument is just dumb.
+2 252 Atk Huntail Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 197-232 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
...and that's banded flame. Overhyped and still outclassed by Gorebyss.

Zam: It's pretty easily comparable to Terrakion, Hydreigon, Dragalge...I'd go as far as to say it actually outclasses a lot of B+, lol. All for the raise.

Rain: Going off what Albacore said, not sure Kingdra is necessarily mandatory on rain, but it is the premier special sweeper for rain; Omastar being it's only real competition (and I guess Seismitoad and Ludicolo but lol). I do think rain is kinda dicks now tho, so it would make more sense to drop Politoed to B+ than it would be to raise Kingdra to A-.

Manaphy: Manaphy will almost always get a kill and almost never fully sweep, other than CM RD vs. Stall cases. It's a pain in the ass to kill, and with Thundurus, Raikou, and MMan getting less popular it's getting harder to stop. It's certainly a better mon than Clefable, so we might as well put it in S rank ._.

Gastrodon: Cool mon, pretty annoying to switch in to, and beats Keldeo, as well as a other nasty threats, namely Thundurus. A raise seems fair for it.

I'd also like to mention Bronzong. As something that can counter or semi-counter most of S rank, it really oughta move up.

Also supporting all of Albacore's nominations, although I'm kinda neutral about Keldeo; Mega Altaria has not been kind to it, but Scald is pretty goddamn annoying so I'm a bit 50/50 on it.

Edit: One more nomination, Mega Gardevoir to A-. It now faces stiff competition for teamslots in the forms of MAlaria and Mega Diancie, and due to these two it also finds itself with actual counters now. It's only real use now is CM Stallbreaker, and even then it faces competition from Mega Diancie.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Ludicolo definitely deserves to be ranked.

I would even say C- is good for it (especially considering Kabutops, Kingdra, and Omastar at B). It is a huge asset to rain teams as a swift swimmer that removes bulky waters such as Rotom-W, Azumarill, Gastrodon, Slowbro and also messes with opposing rain teams by being able to switch into and OHKO both MegaPert and Omastar. All of the other swift swimmers simply cannot OHKO these pokemon even with heavy layers of hazards on the fields, and Ludicolo removes them admirably.

I wouldn't say it lacks power at all. In fact, it is very comparable to standard special Kingdra- it only has 5 less special attack, and just replaces a dragon STAB with a grass STAB. Ludicolo has perfect coverage with its dual STABs and ice beam. It also has focus blast to KO Ferrothorn if it switches in on Hydro Pump (although unreliable, it is still better than what Kingdra can do.) I would probably use it over Kingdra 3 times out of 10. It loses the ability to tank Talonflame's hit at full health and OHKO the Lati twins for the ability to wipe out Rotom-W, Azumarill, and the much-hyped Gastrodon and deal with opposing weather (checks rain and resists Excadrill's STABs), as well as a decent chance to lure and remove Ferrothorn. It's a valid trade-off.

EDIT: It also checks the "S-rank" Manaphy even when rain is off the field.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ludicolo: 204-240 (67.7 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Energy Ball vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 330-390 (91.4 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

(Energy Ball > Giga Drain because in OU you need the power)

In order for your nomination for Ludicolo to become ranked once more you will need to provide a better argument than the one the ranking team just broke. Also, to truly be taken seriously you will need to provide good replays against non-bad players that showcase Ludicolo's ability to function as well as you state it here. You will need to be extra convincing to get the ranking team to immediately go back on their rank placement, and this sub-par post is not going to cut it in all likelihood.

 

[Dratios]

I'm with Albacore on the Keldeo drop. Too much stuff counters it. Unaware Clefable beats SubCM, Band Talonflame beats every non-Sash variant (but I like never see Sash anyway so yeah) and Thundurus Prankster T-waves it and proceeds to beat it. It's pretty underwhelming and not worthy of S-rank imo.

Also, no way Manaphy should go to S. It needs to run setup to be good at all, and again, Unaware Clefable beats it. You just need to play cautiously around Manaphy and don't give it setup chances, and you're set.

EDIT: wooooo 500th post

 

[p2]

I'm with Albacore on the Keldeo drop. Too much stuff counters it. Unaware Clefable beats SubCM, Band Talonflame beats every non-Sash variant (but I like never see Sash anyway so yeah) and Thundurus Prankster T-waves it and proceeds to beat it. It's pretty underwhelming and not worthy of S-rank imo.

Also, no way Manaphy should go to S. It needs to run setup to be good at all, and again, Unaware Clefable beats it. You just need to play cautiously around Manaphy and don't give it setup chances, and you're set.

EDIT: wooooo 500th post

I wouldn't say Keldeo is countered by too much stuff because it literally bullshits its way through the meta with Scald.
You can say stuff like Latis, but they hate taking 25% from Burn+SR damage every time they come in and you need factor "is he specs / scarf / subcm? I can't afford to come in on this because Specs does so much damage or Scarf outspeeds me but he can completely ruin my switch in if he has Substitute". All of its checks are easy to pressure and force out, the only ones that really stay consistently healthy are Celebi, Amoonguss, Torn-T, Unaware Clefable w/ Heal Bell or Magic Guard users. Not to mention its fantastic synergy with Bisharp which beat most of Keldeos checks really easily. However, the metagame trends do suck for Keldeo as Albacore mentioned, Zam/Torn-T/Reun/Altaria are all becoming more popular and they can handle most sets 1v1.
And I think people are really underrating Specs. It's so difficult to fully switch into as everything that doesn't resist its really good water/fighting STABs takes a ton, then the last moveslot is pretty much a complete mindgame "will he have hp bug to ruin my celebi/starmie/slowking switch in, will he have Icy Wind which beats AV TornT after SR, will he have HP Electric to ease mindgames with Gyarados and a safer way of beating Azumarill". Even though Keldeo isn't the fastest thing ever, it's still a massive pain in the ass to consider when teambuilding because all of its sets are really good and you need to have them all covered so you don't just lose half your team trying to beat it.

And the thing with Manaphy is, although it needs to setup, it's how easy it finds setup opportunities. Against defensive teams you can literally come in on anything that isn't Unaware Clefable or Ferrothorn and get a +3 and something dies and even though it struggles with offense, sets are running stuff like Wacan Berry which just crumbles teams that rely on Electric types like Manectric or Thundurus to beat Manaphy. Manaphy can get a free kill everytime it comes in because of how easy it is to pressure teams into giving it a free Tail Glow and it's coverage is really good with options like Energy Ball, Psychic, Shadow Ball, HP Fire and Ice Beam. I don't really think it should be S, but you're definitely underselling how easy it boosts against defensive teams or screws over offensive teams by running a specific set.