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Mix-and-Mega — Now with Primals!
- Thread starter FlameUser64
- Start date
- Status
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
I think we've found another bug (meaning Ransei). This replay shows Magikarp (a NFE) reverting to Primal Form, and ik NFEs aren't supposed to Mega, so just assuming that being able to revert to Primal forme is a glitch I thought I'd let you know about n_n http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-947
(btw the replay is hilarious even if you don't care about the glitch, watch it ;o)
(btw the replay is hilarious even if you don't care about the glitch, watch it ;o)
Replays for the metagame!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-985
A battle on mix and mega Here
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/aqua-mixandmega-973
Me vs Infernapetropius
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-986
Vs. Not Too Shady
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-990
vs Not Too Shady
Also, we are still experiencing that stat changing bug.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-985
A battle on mix and mega Here
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/aqua-mixandmega-973
Me vs Infernapetropius
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-986
Vs. Not Too Shady
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/aqua-mixandmega-990
vs Not Too Shady
Also, we are still experiencing that stat changing bug.
I've been working on my Mix 'n Mega team for a while now and I've spotted a weakness on my team: Red Orb users, primarily (pun intended) Victini and Roserade. I don't want to use Blue Orb Ferrothorn because imo it isn't a good check/counter. Yes, it can switch in on them, but what happens when they switch into you? There's always that pressure the turn after the opponent switched out his Red Orb user on your Ferrothorn which forces you to switch your Ferro out because when it switches back in, either your Ferro is gonna die, or something else is going to take a big hit, maybe even outright getting killed. This puts a lot of pressure everytime Victini/Roserade switches in and makes it easy for your opponent to predict you.
That said, for a good Red Orb counter, I realised it probably had to have a double resistance to fire and a resistance to grass would also come in handy for a Solarbeam from Roserade. I then started looking at which typings give me that particular resistance:
Conclusion: Fire/Dragon and Water/Dragon are probably the best 2 options, Fire/Dragon being a bit better due to resistance to Grass and Electric (Solarbeam/Bolt Strike).
Now I went looking for good Fire or Water types who could abuse either Ampharosite or Charizardite X to a good effect or a Red Orb Dragon type (Note that they need to have those particular typing as Primary Typing). There weren't any good Fire types imo that could abuse those particular Mega stones, neither were there a lot of Water Types. On the other hand, there were a lot of Dragons who could abuse Red Orb very well. For now, I have these mons:
What do you think about this? Do you know any other options I might have overlooked? Do you think I should just go with Palkia/Reshiram? Let me know, I would really like to see your opinion on this. ;)
EDIT: Ran some calcs
apparently, Slowking can't take Solarbeam and Bolt Strike very well, these calcs make me say Goodra. Maybe a sleep talk set could put the work?
That said, for a good Red Orb counter, I realised it probably had to have a double resistance to fire and a resistance to grass would also come in handy for a Solarbeam from Roserade. I then started looking at which typings give me that particular resistance:
- Fire/Water (I could only see this with slapping a Red Orb on a water pokemon, which is not really a good idea)
- Fire/Rock, Dragon Rock & Water/Rock (Rock is bad typing and Victini gets Focus Blast/Brick Break, so a nono for me)
- Fire/Dragon (Solid typing, either putting Red Orb on a Dragon type or putting Ampharosite/Charizardite X on a Fire type, Reshiram is an option too)
- Water/Dragon (Imo this may work too, but Red Orb counters out water type attacks, so you would only be able to hit with Dragon Stab or super-eff coverage. Again you could put Ampharosite/Charizardite X on a Water type or go with Palkia right away)
Conclusion: Fire/Dragon and Water/Dragon are probably the best 2 options, Fire/Dragon being a bit better due to resistance to Grass and Electric (Solarbeam/Bolt Strike).
Now I went looking for good Fire or Water types who could abuse either Ampharosite or Charizardite X to a good effect or a Red Orb Dragon type (Note that they need to have those particular typing as Primary Typing). There weren't any good Fire types imo that could abuse those particular Mega stones, neither were there a lot of Water Types. On the other hand, there were a lot of Dragons who could abuse Red Orb very well. For now, I have these mons:
- Ampharosite Slowking > 95/95/100/150/130/20, Mold Breaker (Solid defenses, not a lot to hit Victini with (Shadow Ball maybe...), but it can cripple it with Thunder Wave/Toxic. It also has the main niche of being able to status Magic Bouncers.)
- Red Orb Goodra > 90/130/90/160/150/80, Desolate Lands (Better Typing, can really hit hard with either Draco Meteor and Fire Blast. Main flaw being his lack of reliable recovery. Rest isn't great and it while it can easily 1v1 almost any Red Orb user (Now that I think of it, Primal Groudon would destroy this little guy), after it has come in on Victini/Roserade a few times, taken a few Sun-boosted Fire Stabs, it is forced to Rest. Main niche being able to hit hard while also being a counter to Red Orb.)
What do you think about this? Do you know any other options I might have overlooked? Do you think I should just go with Palkia/Reshiram? Let me know, I would really like to see your opinion on this. ;)
EDIT: Ran some calcs
252 SpA Red Orb Roserade Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ampharosite Slowking in Harsh Sunshine: 46-54 (11.6 - 13.7%) -- possible 8HKO
That's what I call walling power...
252 SpA Red Orb Roserade Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ampharosite Slowking: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Ouch! still no 2HKO
0 SpA Ampharosite Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Red Orb Roserade: 94-111 (36 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No 2HKO. Slowking can counter Roserade, even with rocks up, but it's pretty shaky and he needs to be at almost full health.
That's what I call walling power...
252 SpA Red Orb Roserade Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ampharosite Slowking: 147-174 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Ouch! still no 2HKO
0 SpA Ampharosite Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Red Orb Roserade: 94-111 (36 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
No 2HKO. Slowking can counter Roserade, even with rocks up, but it's pretty shaky and he needs to be at almost full health.
252+ Atk Red Orb Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ampharosite Slowking in Harsh Sunshine: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- 47.2% chance to 3HKO
No 100% 3HKO ;)
252+ Atk Red Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ampharosite Slowking: 155-183 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even shakier than Roserade, but still no 2HKO
252+ Atk Red Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ampharosite Slowking: 155-183 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Still no 100% chance...
0 SpA Ampharosite Slowking Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Red Orb Victini: 164-194 (48 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
2HKO, but being able to hit both Victini and Roserade, means he needs to run 2 coverage moves + Recovery means there's only 1 slot left for either Thunder Wave, Toxic or Stab.
No 100% 3HKO ;)
252+ Atk Red Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ampharosite Slowking: 155-183 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Even shakier than Roserade, but still no 2HKO
252+ Atk Red Orb Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ampharosite Slowking: 155-183 (39.3 - 46.4%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Still no 100% chance...
0 SpA Ampharosite Slowking Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Red Orb Victini: 164-194 (48 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
2HKO, but being able to hit both Victini and Roserade, means he needs to run 2 coverage moves + Recovery means there's only 1 slot left for either Thunder Wave, Toxic or Stab.
252 SpA Roserade Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Goodra: 43-51 (11.1 - 13.2%) -- possible 8HKO
252 SpA Red Orb Roserade Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Red Orb Goodra in Harsh Sunshine: 54-64 (14 - 16.6%) -- possible 6HKO
Roserade can't touch Goodra. On the other hand:
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade in Harsh Sunshine: 331-391 (126.8 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This needs no explanation.
252 SpA Red Orb Roserade Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Red Orb Goodra in Harsh Sunshine: 54-64 (14 - 16.6%) -- possible 6HKO
Roserade can't touch Goodra. On the other hand:
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade in Harsh Sunshine: 331-391 (126.8 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This needs no explanation.
252+ Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Goodra in Harsh Sunshine: 132-155 (34.3 - 40.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Solid damage, Rest will probably fuck you up. :/
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini in Harsh Sunshine: 174-204 (51 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doesn't even need Earth Power/Draco Meteor, and if you calculate Sdef drops:
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini in Harsh Sunshine: 345-407 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is when Victini V-created you twice, pretty straight forward.
Solid damage, Rest will probably fuck you up. :/
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini in Harsh Sunshine: 174-204 (51 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Doesn't even need Earth Power/Draco Meteor, and if you calculate Sdef drops:
252+ SpA Goodra Fire Blast vs. -2 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini in Harsh Sunshine: 345-407 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
This is when Victini V-created you twice, pretty straight forward.
apparently, Slowking can't take Solarbeam and Bolt Strike very well, these calcs make me say Goodra. Maybe a sleep talk set could put the work?
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Red Orb Goodra: 602-710 (156.7 - 184.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ampharosite Slowking: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Both can't counter Groudon-P...
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ampharosite Slowking: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Both can't counter Groudon-P...
Last edited:
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
Honestly I think the Ubers are too good in this metagame, especially Groudon. Groudon can use a mega stone, and a pretty good one for its situation, giving it the highest bst in the meta. It can still run through teams with precipice blades like it does in ubers. Even mmx is pretty good. Heck, why don't I just use an ubers team on the ladder? It'll probably win me a lot of games, as running an item helps a lot. I honestly think they need to go, so the meta will focus around the mix and mega part rather than ubers mons. But what do you think?
InfernapeTropius11
get on my level
Ubers can't mega, and to be fair I think I've seen one ubers Pokemon being used in all of the matches I've spectated. This is because pretty much every other Pokemon in OU/UU can hold a Mega Stone that gives them a better typing, better ability, or better stats (or all of these), allowing them to outclassed the ubers Pokemon. Some can still be good, but I don't think they will be overwhelmingly so, as general a Pokemon that can Mega evolve will be better in either bulk, power, typing, or ability (I mean half of Ubers have Pressure as an ability lol, how is that gonna hold up to Red Orb V-Create, or Tough Claws anything?). Plus, Mega evolving is more fun :3
canno
formerly The Reptile
They can use their own stones. For example, you can have Mega Lucario, Mega Mewtwo, and most importantly Primal Groudon, who is still the best abuser of Red Orb imho.
However, a Mix-And-Mega "Uber" (i.e. Ubers can use any stone) would be interesting. We might even see Mega Rayray again due to how broken everything would be.
I totally agree with what you said about Primal Groudon. I don't think there is any combination of OU mon + Mega Stone that can counter it reliably while being viable (barring Blue Orb if you're really desperate). I don't play Ubers and I don't now who keeps it in check in the Ubers tier, but with 180 Atk, I don't see a lot keeping it in check aside from full stallmons which I don't want to put on all my teams.
Idk, I see it as Primal Don vs. Primal Victini, primal Don beat primal victini, but Primal Victini is MUCH more difficult to counter due to V-Create 2HKOing virtually anything that does not already 4x resist it. Victini also gets Bolt Strike and Blue Flare, both moves that allow Victini to suprise potential checks. Primal Don, however, gets Precpice blades and a support movepool, alongside better physical bulk, but gets outdamaged when V-Create comes into play.
To bring something else up, Me and InfernapeTropius11 were talking about Agrronite Kyurem. It sounds pretty fun. Pros include excellent 125/140/110 bulk backed up by filter, good 160/130 offenses, Dragon/Steel Typing and recovery. Toxic immunity is nice and it beats fairies, and has Iron Head for STAB.
Aggronite Kyurem looks pretty good, awesome bulk and ability to hit hard on both sides. Maybe someone could put his bulk to the test and provide some calcs?
canno
formerly The Reptile
Yes P-Tini is definitely a monster. However, the main point (at least imho) of Primal Groudon isn't to just be an offensive monster - thanks to its movepool, stats, and typing it also keeps a lot of shit in check and is a great support mon. Another canidate for a primal mon imho is Primal Gourgeist-Super. It's interesting type of Ghost / Fire and its good bulk let it keep other shit in check, like Lucarionite Keldeo (It's immune to both STABs and can eat a random HP Ground or whatever.). Then there's its neat tools like Wisp and Synthesis (75% Recovery !!!) along with Seeds. The only real thing its missing is offensive presence, as it doesn't it nearly as hard as even some of the other stallmons in the tier. Still, I can see it being a thing.
As for Kyurem, Kyurem in general is an amazing monster of a mon with basically any stone. Aggronite Kyurem looks disgustingly strong.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
1. They can mega, just their stones only. This still means we have pdon and the mewtwos, which are all going to be threatening- mewtwo is way too fast since speed doesn't apply on first turn of mega evolving, and pdon is the best red orb user still. Plus i forgot about the monster megamence
2. The max ou/uu stuff hits in stats is 700 (except kyurem) and i'd rather have an item.
3. Ubers mons have gr8 movepools. Only kyogre has origin pulse, only xern has geomancy, only ho-oh (and entei) have sacred fire, etc. Some of them have awesome abilities too, especially the banned megas (mence,mgar,pdon).
4. Yes, mega evolving is more fun. Which is why ubers should be banned. It's what makes the tier unique. It's like saying monotype is optional in that tier, then what's the fun? I'm doing this to make the tier more fun, not necessarily because they are broken.
I really understand your point. If Ubers are still going to be very present in this meta, I won't like it either. You can compare this a bit with 350cup, which also had Ubers in it, but this worked because most Ubers were outclassed by others. There were still Groudon-P and the Mewtwo's, but these were kept pretty much in check by the little pokemon (mons with 350 total stat or lower, which got doubled stats). I think we have to look at how Ubers fit in this meta, and if they make the meta centralize too less around mega-evolving and too much around Ubers, even if specific Ubers aren't in any way broken, people should look into it. I like the idea of being able to use Ubers, but seeing every Offensive team running Groudon-P and every Stall team running Giratina and Lugia is a bit too much. I know not a lot of teams do run Ubers these days, but this is because people don't want too. But if the meta evolves, maybe people will have to run ubers, and that's not something I like to see happening.
This seems like a really bad metagame to start banning things. You have extremely broken things on the offensive side, on the balance side and on the stall side. Anything can inherit from Mega gyarados to suddenly get Mold breaker as well. If we start banning one thing it's going to start a wave of shit getting banned. You have a very neat balance here, atleast on paper.
It's obviously too late to give suggestions for this metagame, but what if there was an off-brand of this for mega-evolving pokes only. Slowbro with Aggronite Filter for example, and Water Steel
If this finally will be OMotM, we can put actually put it to the test. There have been a few battles on Aqua, but far too less to really judge.
I personally don't see why we should ban any ubers right now. They give a lot more potential variety to this meta, and there are a few things that can appreciate having an uber on their team. Regular Don and Ogre can provide support for teams of their respective weather. Giratina is still a useful defogger and wall, genesect is still a good scarfed pivot, xern is still xern and still has geomancy. Arceus has all of its usual helpful traits, including a good support movepool, and the ability to fix type weaknesses for a team. Yes, several megas outclass their uber counterparts, but you also forget that regular ubers can still hold items, allowing for passive recovery or even more power than some megas.(of course i'll still be using megas more often than ubers because there's so much stuff to test)
Something relevant:
Magnezone @ Cameruptite
Ability: Magnet Pull
70/100/145/170/120/30
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]/Signal Beam
It's reasonably bulky and hits rather hard
Garchomp @ Scizorite
108/150/135/90/105/112
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Bulldoze
- Dual Chop
- Swords Dance
A hard hitter that is difficult to switch in on due to possessing speed dropping moves. Possesses decent bulk as well.
Something relevant:
Magnezone @ Cameruptite
Ability: Magnet Pull
70/100/145/170/120/30
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Fire]/Signal Beam
It's reasonably bulky and hits rather hard
Garchomp @ Scizorite
108/150/135/90/105/112
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Tomb
- Bulldoze
- Dual Chop
- Swords Dance
A hard hitter that is difficult to switch in on due to possessing speed dropping moves. Possesses decent bulk as well.
These really slow sheer force things w/ no recovery don't seem that great to me. Scizorite garchomp sounds incredible though. It has a 120 base power stab w/ the ability to break subs. That is literally stronger than mega khangas return, when you factor in their relative attack stats. Actually, maybe not quite, now that I think about it, but it's faster, bulkier, and has better coverage overall. And it does more damage when it breaks a sub, although that's kinda sitatutional.
Garchomp would be another good abuser of lucarionite. It's stabs are still godly and adaptability is the only ability of any mega that can boost earthquake (except sand force but, lol). Unfortunately, it falls at 124 speed, so enough to troll a lot of stuff, but just short of 125. This could hold it back a bit, but I don't see it being TOO much of a problem. Another option is absolite chomp. It doesn't get any extra bulk, and it dumps quite a bit in SpA, but magic bounce is nice, and 142 is really fast. Swords dance should be enough for it to sweep a lot, and it could even run fire blast- 125 isn't really WAY different than 150, and it lets you go mixed, which is cool. Chomp is one of those cases where it's already really good, and just a little adjustment can make it an absolute monster. It can also use metgrossite or aerodactylite to become a terror, especially a swords dance set. They don't boost earthquake, which is lame, but it could do some serious damage with dragon claw or even outrage- if you're feeling crazy. Yeah, chomp will be fun to play around with. It's speed is the only thing that really inhibits it. While it's above average, it is easily revenge killed by most relevant scarfers. Lucarionite sounds like the best- usually you'll be spamming EQ, so the boost will be appreciated. After that I'd say metagrossite, but I'm not actually sure which of those two is best.
Wow, I got so far off track. Yeah, scizorite is a cool option... Hehe, yeeup. I'm so ADD.
It seems to me that Sceptilite is pretty much the answer for neutralizing Victini's big moves.
Putting it on a pure Fire type:
1: Fire/Dragon doubly resists Fire and Grass
2: Lightningrod makes an immunity and Special Attack boosts from Bolt Strike
3: Fire resists U-turn as well, which standard Victini often carries
Putting it on a pure Fire type:
1: Fire/Dragon doubly resists Fire and Grass
2: Lightningrod makes an immunity and Special Attack boosts from Bolt Strike
3: Fire resists U-turn as well, which standard Victini often carries
While Lightningrod counters out Bolt Strike and Thunder (Pidgeotite), there are a lot of other, better megastones which add dragon typing as well. You already resist Bolt Strike, and if you have just a little bulk, he won't hit you hard with it. Ofcourse, if you want to have a fast specially oriented wall for Victini, you could opt for Sceptilite, but I would just go with Charizardite X for physical power or Ampharosite for special power which both also add useful abilities instead of Lightningrod.
On another case, i've found out Red Orb Salamence might actually be a better counter to other Red Orb users than my previous Goodra. With it's resistances he does fortunately not need to have that much bulk Goodra has, and with Roost, it can actually wall them better. It can also take on Groudon-P if it does not carry Stone Edge, because you can keep Salamence in standard form, which gives you Ground immunity and still maintaining that Fire resistance. His stats become 95/165/100/160/80/100, which makes him able to go mixed with Fire Blast, Draco Meteor/Dragon Claw and Earthquake which gives you perfect coverage.
You might wonder why I did not choose Dragonite over Salamence, because Dragonite is significally bulkier. Imo Dragonite would indeed be better because your opponent will probably expect Altarianite, potentially switching into a Steel type, so you can proceed to spam sun boosted Fire Blast, but I already have the infamous Altarianite Dragonite on my team, which makes him not an option for Red Orb.
Red Orb activates automatically on switchin, so no.
Oh damn! Why do game mechanics always have to ruin everything? :l
What I mean is if this metagame, or if an offbrand metagame, was exclusive to only pokemon that could mega evolve. So no Victini Mega-evolving, just the standard gyarados, ampharos, aggron, lopunny, metagross, etc.
I think I mentioned that a while back actually. Maybe not, but I meant to. After running some calls tho, I think it's actually inferior to regular zard x. It's EQ does more, and it's got way better SpA, but it's only physical fire stab is fire fang, and that's pitifully weak. It's dragon claw is also significantly weaker, since it lacks TC. Dragonite might be better, I think. It has fire punch instead, but I still don't think it's enough. The difference in power is substantial, and it doesn't really have any pros over zard x, barring the initial 4x weakness to rocks. I think it'd be better as a specially biased wallbreaker. Even though it's attack is slightly better, the power of its special moves is far greater.
But why? That just doesn't sound nearly as fun.
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