Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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I don't agree with Charizard X to S because the meta hasn't stabilized enough to a point where I can confidently say that it should cement itself as an S rank threat, after the Landorus ban. I put it up as a discussion point to maintain the notion that it's a possibility in the future not so much that it's definite at this very moment, unlike Landorus when it was nommed back to S and it was blatantly obvious. You might call this a shitty reasoning, but it's a reasoning that I'm using so I don't just jump to a conclusion based on bandwagon mentality.

Small convo I had with a friend summing up my thoughts on why I'm on the fence about M-Venusaur.
brokenwings: huh AM ithought mega venu was A+ already
brokenwings: it should be!!
AM: we're debating about it
AM: shit like torn-t, and m-alakzam really suck for it
brokenwings: tru but its not like zam wants to switch in whatsoever
brokenwings: and not that hard to deal with via teammates
brokenwings: hopefully
brokenwings: torn t usage will die down
AM: more or less its dependency on consolidating so many roles find itself in positions where it can possibly get overwhelmed
brokenwings: once lando goes
AM: at least right now
brokenwings: yea that's the main issue with it i think
brokenwings: it can get overwhelmed
AM: we'll see in like
AM: couple of weeks
brokenwings: sand also sucks for it
AM: it does better in fatter metas
brokenwings: so do scald burns
brokenwins: such a good glue mon tho
You can take that as you will.

Chesnaught should drop, Amoonguss is a bit shaky, but Amoonguss is realistically going to be more useful than Quagsire on most defensive teams that it's on due to the mindlessness of Regenerator in my eyes. Quagsires ability to pivot puts strong emphasis that it stays very healthy at almost all costs while worst case scenario Amoonguss just needs to switch out and it just made up for lost ground. This is speaking from a pivot stand-point btw, the only thing you can acknowledge is that Quagsire can slow down threats like BD Azu and Char-X, cause everything else it's suppose to blanket check comes with the idea that you're not contending with heavy duty special attackers and hazards in the back that will more or less take advantage of it much more easily. This is the basic idea of where dropping Quagsire comes from, similar to Char-X where it'll be more clear in due time.

Neutral on Scolipede from lack of use, neutral with Reuniclus from extended use, Mandibuzz I think is bad so staying neutral on that, Kabutops neutral on since really depends on who you ask hence why it's up for a discussion point as well.

It wasn't unanimous with team, until then it stays in A. Same deal with Celebi.

Slurpuff and Nidoqueen are E rank material when I have time to actually get to that. They're being overrated for D by a long shot. Stunfisk is like F rank lol. It's cute for hipster semi-stall but the reality is that it's pressured as shit by about everything else in the meta. Coming from extended use as well.

M-Gard to A+ is way too soon just cause Landorus got the boot. With that being said M-Diancie and M-Gard should probably be looked at it to be in the same rank of A subjectively speaking I don't see M-Diancie that superior to M-Gardevoir. M-Gyarados in due time as well, it's being a little underestimated for going to A at this point but it's A+ in the Lando meta, so we'll see how that turns out.

Oh and I unranked Doublade forgot to put that in the update, I'll be doing that now.
I think you missed the whole argument for stunfisk. The person nominating this is talking about its merits on hyper offense as an electric and flying check. No need to dismiss somebody's argument without actually reading it. Obviously stunfisk competes against chomp but I can reasonably see its value on HO.
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
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I think you missed the whole argument for stunfisk. The person nominating this is talking about its merits on hyper offense as an electric and flying check. No need to dismiss somebody's argument without actually reading it. Obviously stunfisk competes against chomp but I can reasonably see its value on HO.
?

Pretty sure I read it and conveyed my opinion on it. Not sure what this reply was hoping to achieve when I clearly acknowledged the nom. Thanks for the life lesson I suppose.
 
i'm on vacation so i don't want to type too much, but tentacruel needs to drop. its a spinner that can set up tspikes and spread burns, but the thing is, this thing ends up dying too fast in practice. i see a charizard y just forcing tentacruel in and watch it take multiple sun-boosted modest flamethrowers and its bulk is really undermined when it doesn't have the tools to beat the 'mons it wants too. scald in the sun is pitiful lol. calm mind keldeo completely sets up on you unless your using acid spray (there is competition with acid spray don't quote) and even then, it is going to take a while to be able to beat and a weakened tentacruel pretty much dies. specs keldeo burns it and then spams secret sword to its pitiful physical bulk without investment, and if you do invest, where is the purpose of using tentacruel. don't get me wrong, it is still decent and works excellently in those jellyfish msableye cores, but it's more like a spot on utility 'mon and i would never consider it as a sole check and i'm saying this out of experience. please drop to b- friend
 
?

Pretty sure I read it and conveyed my opinion on it. Not sure what this reply was hoping to achieve when I clearly acknowledged the nom. Thanks for the life lesson I suppose.
While I don't support Stunfisk for any kind of rank, I think what he intended to convey was your mention of Stunfisk "cute for Hipster Semi-Stall" when the nomination for it was based on it being used for offensive teams. Might have given the mistaken idea you thought he was nommed for semi-stall niche, as opposed to what I presume as "he's not good on offense as he was nommed, might be extremely niche semi-stall, but isn't that great period".
 
What does Stunfisk have over Lanturn?
Access to Rocks, a somewhat better movepool, Static to troll a few physical attackers, Pain Split I guess

Calcs: Stunfisk vs the OU metagame

+2 252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 229-271 (54.2 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Stunfisk Discharge vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 198-234 (60.5 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 153-180 (36.2 - 42.6%) -- 95% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 192-226 (45.4 - 53.5%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 152-180 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 355-419 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 218-260 (80.1 - 95.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Roll after Life Orb damage)

252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 178-210 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 240-283 (56.8 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Stunfisk Discharge vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Pinsir: 236-282 (87 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 180-214 (42.6 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 164-194 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO

And that's about as good as it gets...
 
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thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Offensive SD doesn't do that well I have to agree but Bulky SD is awesome right now because it takes on so many threats it is not even funny: Azumarill, Weavile, Mega Altaria, Clefable, Mega Metagross, Latios, Landorus-T, Gardevoir, Kyurem-B, Serperior. Mega Scizor just checks 80% of the meta and at the same time it can threaten both offensive teams with SD + Bullet Punch and bulkier teams because of great bulk + SD + recovery, which means it can set up against many pokemon such as non-whirlwind Hippowdon and Latias.

Will post thoughts on Zard X, Reuniclus and Amoonguss later.
Altaria, clef: fire blast
Metagross: like i said usage is decreasing
Lando: 252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 160-189 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO You only set up on bulky sets, sd uses YOU as set up fodder
Serperior has hp fire and kos at plus two, so if it all you check it only if you have bug bite. Latios, on the other hand, can ohko if rocks are up.
I don't see how any of these things are being taken on with your scizor
I agree that you beat weavile, azu, gard, kube, and megagross, but that's only half the stuff you personally brought up, which will be skewed to support your argument. If you look at the meta as a whole there is actually no way it's beating 80% of it. It's not that good right now.
How exactly does the rise of fatchomp hurt scizor? Unless it has fire blast scizor can just repeatedly attack it and roost when necessary. Yeah when it's u-turning it takes some more residual damage but this isn't something that is unique to scizor. Same with hippo. Hippo can't really do anything to it besides phazing it. Yeah rise in usage of manaphy can be a problem but I really don't think just one mon becoming a bit more popular means we need to drop something that loses to it. Metagross is still meta defining as ever so I don't really know where you're getting "reduction of metagross", and don't pull up some meaningless usage stats because usage =/= viability. And btw scizor is not one dimensional at all. It has a ton of variety. It can run agility baton pass, SD 3 attacks, bulky SD, defog, or u-turn. Being one dimensional also isn't even that bad in scizor's case, considering how good it is at doing its job of walling mega gross and blanket checking fairies among other things. Scald burns are annoying? Really!?!? Also idk why you're even comparing gliscor vs scizor, they literally have nothing in common besides swords dance. Same deal with charizard x. Obviously charizard x is more scary as a sweeper, it has dragon dance, flare blitz, and a much better offensive typing. Once again, you can't compare them because outside of having the ability to sweep, they literally have nothing in common.
Chomp can dragon tail you out so there is no way you are setting up on it. I guess you do beat hippo, I was being stupid there. And I'm sorry but usage is the best indicator of viability. If you make the ladder is aids argument then look at usage in tournament, or on the high ladder. Metagross usage is declining for sure. Then in variety you bring up four sets I mentioned and baton pass, which itself is a stupid strategy that deserves to be banned, so I don't really get what variety you are referring to. Then gliscor vs scizor, all sets you brought up are legal on gliscor too. just putting that out there. They have everything in common: being bulky sweepers.
 
Chomp can dragon tail you out so there is no way you are setting up on it. I guess you do beat hippo, I was being stupid there. And I'm sorry but usage is the best indicator of viability. If you make the ladder is aids argument then look at usage in tournament, or on the high ladder. Metagross usage is declining for sure. Then in variety you bring up four sets I mentioned and baton pass, which itself is a stupid strategy that deserves to be banned, so I don't really get what variety you are referring to. Then gliscor vs scizor, all sets you brought up are legal on gliscor too. just putting that out there. They have everything in common: being bulky sweepers.
Lol I never said you're setting up on chomp. Once again, usage does not indicate viability. Why isn't lando-t S? Why isn't garchomp S? Why does talonflame have higher usage than clefable? Metagross usage may be declining, but it's still one of the best pokemon in OU. Just because people have started using it less doesn't mean it's gotten any worse.
baton pass, which itself is a stupid strategy that deserves to be banned, so I don't really get what variety you are referring to.
lmao you're calling agility pass a "stupid strategy that deserves to be banned"


Like if you still think gliscor and scizor are similar I really don't know what to say. Yes they both learn agility, swords dance, knock off, and roost, but that doesn't mean their similar lol. That's like saying mega medicham and mega lopunny are similar because they both run fake out and hjk.
 

Unlucky Desperado

Banned deucer.
First, neither firehusky nor thesecondbest are right on Scizor. I'm going to be adressing the SpDef/Defensive Scizor with a bit if not no attack investment since it is quite common as a pivot and setup sweeper. I would not want to see my Scizor Knock off, take 30% from recoil then get dragon tailed out, seeing as that damage, coupled with hazards would mean my Scizor can't use its bulk as a switch in. To be honest this argument is both trivial and very situational. It doesn't really show anything on the viability of Garchomp or its ability to be effective. Quite simply, Garchomp annoys physical attackers and gets up hazards easily and effectively (to an extent).

Next, I can adress usage and viability. Is there a direct correlation between usage and viability? Yes but to an extent. Usage determines what pokemon are good in the current metagame and which ones aren't. How good and how bad? Not quite. The top 15 from May was:
Heatran, Garchomp, Clefable, Keldeo, Lando T, Bisharp, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, Latias, Excadrill, Latios, Talonflame, Chansey.
Now if you are going to compare Scizor with Gliscor and put them on the same level, why is Scizor at 9, while Gliscor at 31? We have viability discussions because usage stats are not enough to seperate the best of the best.

Now I can talk about Scizor from A+ to A.
Here are a couple sets Mega Scizor commonly uses:
Bulky SD (SD, Roost, BP, Bug Bite/Knock Off/U-turn)
Offensive SD (SD, BP, 2 of Bug Bite/Knock Off/Superpower)
Defog (Roost, Defog, U-turn, BP)
Baton Pass (SD/Agility, Baton Pass, 2 good moves)

Quickly touching upon Baton Pass, it is a nasty surprise for unsuspecting players. Most people, including me, would think Bulky/Offensive when I see SD. Baton Pass is a surprise factor and can be very effective when played like it. In terms of viablity, it isn't as good as other sets, but it isn't bad either.
Defog Scizor is a good set to. Scizor can switch in and threaten a lot of the metagame. Mega Diancie, Kyurem B, Clefable, Bisharp, Lando T, Tyranitar, Weavile, and Tornadus lacking Heat Wave. We can even go and stretch this to Alakazam, Metagross, Gliscor, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Altaria, Clefable and Hippowdon. That's a lot of common pokemon in the metagame. In fact all of these are in the top 50 of usage (except for Aerodactyl) and are A- or higher. The switch in opportunities it has to Defog or get momentum are perfect examples of why it is a good pokemon.
With Offensive SD, Scizor loses its versatility defensively and trades it for an easier time sweeping. Would be switch ins like Heatran and Slowbro risk getting hit with moves like Superpower and Bug Bite respectively. Scizor isn't the best offensive sweeper in the tier, but for fatter and slower teams it can be extremely effective. Additionally, its natural 70/140/100 helps it take a hit and return with a +2 attack vs offense while threatening with Bullet Punch.
Last, its Bulky SD shares qualities with both the Offensive SD set and the Defog set. Combining numerous switch in opportunities and threats of sweeping your team, it's by far Scizor's best set, and additionally is a great pivot.

Now first lets compare
to its fellow A+ ranked pokemon:

notice that these pokemon are all extremely versatile. I don't neccessarily mean the sets that they can run, but the moves they can use in conjunction with an ability to fulfill a role extremely well. Does Scizor possess these qualities? Yes. All of these pokemon have defensive versatility. At the same time, it feels like Scizor doesn't do its job nearly as effectively as the other pokemon in this list.

Next we can compare with the A ranked pokemon

These pokemon are much more predictable than the ones in A+
Ttar, Excadrill, Latias, Gliscor, Skarmory, and Rotom-W feature the most versatility. Pokemon like Charizard Y, Slowbro, Venusaur, Mega Gardevoir and Manectric are rather one dimensional. I'm aware Alakazam and Charizard Y to name a few, can have different surprises like Encore/Taunt or Earthquake/phsyical set for Zam and Zard respectively. But the predictability of these pokemon is much more than those in A+

Also let me quickly mention the Scald argument and how it causes burns. Every physical attacker except for thsoe immune to burns suffer from the risk of burns, that's what all physical attackers in this metagame deal with.

To me, Scizor simply doesn't matchup in A+, which is why I think it should drop into A, where it will be one of the best in that rank. I support Mega Scizor from A+ to A
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Scizor is an absolutely enormous threat, and easily fits into that category of "if you don't have something that beats this mon, you cannot play around it, you just lose," which is not true of things like Zard Y or Gardevoir, which can be played around even if you don't have a dedicated mon that beats it. I would much sooner place it in the same category as Mega Gyara or Bisharp than I would Starmie and Rotom-W. It's a Pokemon that is an extremely solid win con while also having the added perk of checking major threats to the meta, it should definitely stay A+.

With that said, some things I think should change would be:
Sableye->A I realize that this thing can be effective, but Fairies comepletely shut it down, and they are literally everywhere. Just doesn't seem to be of the same caliber as Torn-T or Mega Lop
Thundurus->A This thing is super good...but it has lost a lot of effectiveness, and it simply fits with the A mons better than A+ though I do love NP 3 attacks
Gliscor->A- this is simply not as effective as Garchomp or Hippowdon in the current meta, and the Landorus ban doesn't help it (though that is not the sole reason for wanting it to drop)
Diggersby->B I never really liked this thing, but it seems to be a favorite among ladder players. I just fail to see what it brings to the table that other things don't do better
Victini->B another thing I think is being exaggerated a bit. It's strong, but it suffers from being SR weak and having a STAB move that forces it to switch out pretty much every time it uses it. Not as effective in a hazard filled meta, though the possible rise in fairies with a lando ban might make it better, idk.
 

Unlucky Desperado

Banned deucer.
Scizor is an absolutely enormous threat, and easily fits into that category of "if you don't have something that beats this mon, you cannot play around it, you just lose," which is not true of things like Zard Y or Gardevoir, which can be played around even if you don't have a dedicated mon that beats it. I would much sooner place it in the same category as Mega Gyara or Bisharp than I would Starmie and Rotom-W. It's a Pokemon that is an extremely solid win con while also having the added perk of checking major threats to the meta, it should definitely stay A+.
Most teams pack a check to Scizor without realizing it. It definitely depends on what set you talk about. When you claim that Gardevoir and Zard Y are not Pokemon that you just lose to, it's severely dependent on team matchups. These two hit hard right from the get go and are very difficult to switch into, while Scizor has to set up and is reliant on Bullet Punch. Yes +2 BP is strong, but Keldeo, Mega Manectric, Zapdos, Heatran, etc...
I know that you claimed it is better than most A ranked Pokemon, and I agree, but does it belong with A+ rank?

Diggersby->B I never really liked this thing, but it seems to be a favorite among ladder players. I just fail to see what it brings to the table that other things don't do better
You can't just say that Pokemon outclass it, if it you don't even know what it does......
It's a powerful stallbreaker and has STAB quick attack for priority. It's immune to Thunder Wave and isn't completely useless in any playstyle it faces, although balance and stall are the matchups it prefers.
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
Most teams pack a check to Scizor without realizing it. It definitely depends on what set you talk about. When you claim that Gardevoir and Zard Y are not Pokemon that you just lose to, it's severely dependent on team matchups. These two hit hard right from the get go and are very difficult to switch into, while Scizor has to set up and is reliant on Bullet Punch. Yes +2 BP is strong, but Keldeo, Mega Manectric, Zapdos, Heatran, etc...
I know that you claimed it is better than most A ranked Pokemon, and I agree, but does it belong with A+ rank?


You can't just say that Pokemon outclass it, if it you don't even know what it does......
It's a powerful stallbreaker and has STAB quick attack for priority. It's immune to Thunder Wave and isn't completely useless in any playstyle it faces, although balance and stall are the matchups it prefers.
Mega Scizor belongs in the A+ rank because it blanket checks so much of the meta and is pretty much one of the easiest steel types to fit on a team without throwing around the opportunity cost argument of using megas. It has priority for offense, a typing that lets it pivot and or give it the liberty to tank a bunch of stuff, recovery, set up, able to grab momentum through U-Turn. The only dimensional thing about M-Scizor is that it's going to be running Bullet Punch. After that you have bulky and fast M-Scizor with variations that can be easily accommodate both teams and meta-game trends. It being reliant on Bullet Punch isn't exactly a hindrance when you have teams that need to be focused so that they don't stare in the face of a +2 bullet punch revenge kill and or clean. Most traditional checks barring the Zards and lower class stuff such as Infernape aren't exactly switch ins because bulky SD is so common and about every single one of its checks is prone to either Knock Off, Superpower, or is able to be U-Turned out of on obvious switch ins. Definitely fine in A+.

I'm pretty positive Halycon knows what Diggersby does lol. He was just asking is there some noticeable trait that differentiates to warrant a team slot other than the obvious stuff that's sort of a given.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I think that Shuckle should move somewhere (probably up). It's definitely worthy of discussion.

As an individual pokemon, Shuckle has quite a bit of utility. Stealth Rocks, Sticky Web, Encore, Infestation, Toxic, Knock Off, and Gastro Acid are all potential moves for Shuckle to make use of. Aside from setting hazards, Shuckle can put in some actual work (primarily against defensive teams) with its unique movepool. An example would be trapping a Chansey with Infestation and encoring a status move. Infestation is chipping away 12.5% every turn, leaving Chansey quite vulnerable to be taken down by a pursuit or even a hard-hitting mon that couldn't beat Chansey without prior damage. Knock Off is useful for obvious reasons. Gastro Acid synergizes well with its other moves. Use it on a Clefable to cause it to take infestation/toxic damage or get rid of Chansey's natural cure or remove Gliscor's poison heal. Sticky Web is much less potent against stall, but Shuckle's movepool gives it the tools to still put in some work against defensive teams.

Now, Sticky Web is obviously the standout. Sturdy and a free item slot means that Sticky Web is practically always going up. Good play assures that Stealth Rocks will go up too. In the early game against many teams, Shuckle will be able to lay both hazards, potentially snatch the momentum with utility moves, and still escape with a decent amount of health. Shuckle's longevity not only means that hazards can potentially be set multiple times throughout the match, but also that the prior discussion about its utility movepool holds true throughout most of the game. Only against hyper offense will Shuckle be truly limited (which isn't a huge deal since its movepool is oriented towards disrupting defensive mons). Longevity is also important for the purpose of outlasting defog. Its movepool is also very well suited to doing this. If a lati were to come in on shuckle to defog, they can be trapped with infestation and even encored into defog, allowing an easy switch to one of the many common pursuit trappers (bisharp sounds delicious in this situation). Shuckle also has the potential to take advantage of the defog (while chipping away with knock off, status, etc.) by using Contrary as an ability, granting it an evasion boost and an easier time disrupting the opposing team.

As a result of all of this, Shuckle pretty much is Sticky Web. It's viability will therefore be determined mainly by the potency of the playstyle (though I would argue that Shuckle is already a rank-able mon even before taking Webs into account). I think that ORAS has been quite kind to webs. Scanning through the A-Rank, ~75% of the mons are grounded. In fact pidgeot is the only new mega that is not grounded. It's worth noting that most of the mons immune to webs are weak to rocks (which shuckle has!) and/or vulnerable to pursuit trapping (plus, landog can't touch shuckle). Spinning is very difficult against web teams due to how generally strong and "fast" they are. One issue is that Shuckle (or any other setter really) has no way to set webs on magic bounce users. Mega Diancie must be given attention, but Sabeleye is usually exclusive to stall, so webs aren't as neccesary regardless. The ban of landorus opens up more possibilities for sweepers, as it was perhaps the most omnipotent mon to face given its good speed, crazy power, and immunity to webs. Mental Herb allows shuckle to bypass taunt and lum allows it to bypass spores and sleep powder. It is absurdly difficult to 1hko (sturdy is always there for those crazy choiced mons), 2hkoing can be hard, and setup is futile given encore access.

I think that a big misconception is that the presense of sticky web implies a "sticky web" team in that it must be filled with hard-hitting wallbreakers to be successful. However, this is not true (as it would be with, say, trick room). Sticky web merely opens up the opportunity to use other mons, and it gives a ton of teambuilding flexibility. You can run shuckle+5 standard mons, and they will have no issue benefiting from webs. You can also run shuckle+4 standard mons+exploud, because sticky web instantly boosts the viability of slower wallbreakers by a ton (it's like a free scolipass throughout potentially the entire game for every mon against most of the opposing team).

I think that at least B- is possible if people test and find webs to be improved. This isn't RU where shuckle+5 wallbreakers would win you every game, but the ability to turn a team of mons like keldeo/weavile/etc. into one of ramparados (frail, slow, hard-hitting) is awesome. Shuckle is already a decent-ish mon. Webs give it a huge boon. It is easy to support (it traps/chips/encores, so pursuiting or counter setup is easy) and reliable (cant be taunted, cant be ko'd). Give it a go!

Don't fuckle with the shuckle.
 
The thing that makes Diggersby stand out to me as an attacker is how well his STABs complement each other in the OU meta. Barring Skarmory, Bronzong, Gengar, Aerodactyl, and Gourgeist, there's nothing that (type wise) can switch into both STABs and avoid at least neutral damage, and Diggersby can cover all but one or two of those sufficiently with Fire Punch, Wild Charge, or Knock Off for a coverage option. Diggersby has a slight advantage over Azumarill in terms of power, and a noticeable one in terms of speed, outpacing Base 70's of the same nature as well as Clefable.

Diggersby also bears a neutrality to Stealth Rock, a boosting move besides Belly Drum (BD does boost high, but on a Huge Power mon, sometimes it's overkill), higher BP STABs, and immunity to Electric moves over Azumarill, though losing out on the otherwise better defensive typing, less prediction reliant STABs (though Diggersby's usage of a LO over CB tends to mitigate this against more defensive teams), and significantly lesser bulk.

The other mon I think to compare Diggersby to is Crawdaunt, also sitting in B as a frail but ridiculously strong wallbreaker with priority for offense. Just for raw power comparison:
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 281-331 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 294-348 (86.2 - 102%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Diggersby:
+ Consistent Power from Huge Power
+ Better speed tier to outpace some defensive threats Crawdaunt misses out on (at least without a Jolly nature)
+ At least a few options in terms of coverage, Crawdaunt usually doubling up on STABs and maybe using Superpower
+ Slightly less hazard weak (earns at least one extra LO round)
- Individually less spammable STABs compared to Craw's Knock Off
- Priority is easier to switch into for a revenge

Crawdaunt:
+ More powerful and spammable STABs thanks to Adaptability (Knock Off is a boon)
+ No immunities, significantly less prediction reliant to punish switch ins
+ Slightly less priority weak, if only by virtue of Bullet Punch resistance
- Speed is even lower than Diggersby, not hard to revenge kill with anything resisting Aqua Jet
- Even compared to Diggersby, pathetic bulk (mainly on the special side). Can be 2HKOd even by resisted hits.

When I compare Diggersby and Crawdaunt, the two seem about on even ground for me, serving as nukes that basically WILL kill if they get to make an attack, but held back by fraility and low speed in the meta to manage that. I could see Diggersby and Crawdaunt in the same rank (whether the former down or the latter up). However, I think it best to wait a little and see how the post Landorus-I meta develops, since Diggersby has a field day with the kind of defensive cores that could potentially show up in the Genie's absence. Depending on how common these potential cores become, he might have more to pull his weight against than less.

Diggersby to B pending observation of the post suspect meta.
 
I think that Shuckle should move somewhere (probably up). It's definitely worthy of discussion.

As an individual pokemon, Shuckle has quite a bit of utility. Stealth Rocks, Sticky Web, Encore, Infestation, Toxic, Knock Off, and Gastro Acid are all potential moves for Shuckle to make use of. Aside from setting hazards, Shuckle can put in some actual work (primarily against defensive teams) with its unique movepool. An example would be trapping a Chansey with Infestation and encoring a status move. Infestation is chipping away 12.5% every turn, leaving Chansey quite vulnerable to be taken down by a pursuit or even a hard-hitting mon that couldn't beat Chansey without prior damage. Knock Off is useful for obvious reasons. Gastro Acid synergizes well with its other moves. Use it on a Clefable to cause it to take infestation/toxic damage or get rid of Chansey's natural cure or remove Gliscor's poison heal. Sticky Web is much less potent against stall, but Shuckle's movepool gives it the tools to still put in some work against defensive teams.

Now, Sticky Web is obviously the standout. Sturdy and a free item slot means that Sticky Web is practically always going up. Good play assures that Stealth Rocks will go up too. In the early game against many teams, Shuckle will be able to lay both hazards, potentially snatch the momentum with utility moves, and still escape with a decent amount of health. Shuckle's longevity not only means that hazards can potentially be set multiple times throughout the match, but also that the prior discussion about its utility movepool holds true throughout most of the game. Only against hyper offense will Shuckle be truly limited (which isn't a huge deal since its movepool is oriented towards disrupting defensive mons). Longevity is also important for the purpose of outlasting defog. Its movepool is also very well suited to doing this. If a lati were to come in on shuckle to defog, they can be trapped with infestation and even encored into defog, allowing an easy switch to one of the many common pursuit trappers (bisharp sounds delicious in this situation). Shuckle also has the potential to take advantage of the defog (while chipping away with knock off, status, etc.) by using Contrary as an ability, granting it an evasion boost and an easier time disrupting the opposing team.

As a result of all of this, Shuckle pretty much is Sticky Web. It's viability will therefore be determined mainly by the potency of the playstyle (though I would argue that Shuckle is already a rank-able mon even before taking Webs into account). I think that ORAS has been quite kind to webs. Scanning through the A-Rank, ~75% of the mons are grounded. In fact pidgeot is the only new mega that is not grounded. It's worth noting that most of the mons immune to webs are weak to rocks (which shuckle has!) and/or vulnerable to pursuit trapping (plus, landog can't touch shuckle). Spinning is very difficult against web teams due to how generally strong and "fast" they are. One issue is that Shuckle (or any other setter really) has no way to set webs on magic bounce users. Mega Diancie must be given attention, but Sabeleye is usually exclusive to stall, so webs aren't as neccesary regardless. The ban of landorus opens up more possibilities for sweepers, as it was perhaps the most omnipotent mon to face given its good speed, crazy power, and immunity to webs. Mental Herb allows shuckle to bypass taunt and lum allows it to bypass spores and sleep powder. It is absurdly difficult to 1hko (sturdy is always there for those crazy choiced mons), 2hkoing can be hard, and setup is futile given encore access.

I think that a big misconception is that the presense of sticky web implies a "sticky web" team in that it must be filled with hard-hitting wallbreakers to be successful. However, this is not true (as it would be with, say, trick room). Sticky web merely opens up the opportunity to use other mons, and it gives a ton of teambuilding flexibility. You can run shuckle+5 standard mons, and they will have no issue benefiting from webs. You can also run shuckle+4 standard mons+exploud, because sticky web instantly boosts the viability of slower wallbreakers by a ton (it's like a free scolipass throughout potentially the entire game for every mon against most of the opposing team).

I think that at least B- is possible if people test and find webs to be improved. This isn't RU where shuckle+5 wallbreakers would win you every game, but the ability to turn a team of mons like keldeo/weavile/etc. into one of ramparados (frail, slow, hard-hitting) is awesome. Shuckle is already a decent-ish mon. Webs give it a huge boon. It is easy to support (it traps/chips/encores, so pursuiting or counter setup is easy) and reliable (cant be taunted, cant be ko'd). Give it a go!

Don't fuckle with the shuckle.
The problem with Sticky Web is that some common S/A-ranks is unaffected by Sticky Web, like M-Metagross, M-Diancie M-Altaria and ZardX due to Clear Bodyand Flying type pre-mega, or straight up takes advantage of your Sticky Web, like Bisharp or Serperior.
These mons have made Sticky Web less viable as these are seen on many teams now.
Though I support Shuckle to move up as the Sticky Web is useful against offensive teams relying on Speed (and lacks one of the mons mentioned) and is the only viable Sticky Web setter.
C+ fits Shuckle better imo.
 
The problem with Sticky Web is that some common S/A-ranks is unaffected by Sticky Web, like M-Metagross, M-Diancie M-Altaria and ZardX due to Clear Bodyand Flying type pre-mega, or straight up takes advantage of your Sticky Web, like Bisharp or Serperior.
These mons have made Sticky Web less viable as these are seen on many teams now.
Though I support Shuckle to move up as the Sticky Web is useful against offensive teams relying on Speed (and lacks one of the mons mentioned) and is the only viable Sticky Web setter.
C+ fits Shuckle better imo.
In all fairness, those mons only ignore Sticky web pre-Mega, and they don't want to stay in that state for long, so if they're forced out once, they're inhibited by it same as anything after.

Main problem I have is that Sticky Web only offers a benefit vs offensive teams. Stall/Balance teams suffer from Stealth Rock/Spikes, and to a lesser extent, Toxic Spikes because they outright damage or cut into longevity in some manner. While speed is an issue, defensive teams that are mainly about outlasting the opponent and thus not outrunning them aren't directly hurt by Sticky Web.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
In all fairness, those mons only ignore Sticky web pre-Mega, and they don't want to stay in that state for long, so if they're forced out once, they're inhibited by it same as anything after.

Main problem I have is that Sticky Web only offers a benefit vs offensive teams. Stall/Balance teams suffer from Stealth Rock/Spikes, and to a lesser extent, Toxic Spikes because they outright damage or cut into longevity in some manner. While speed is an issue, defensive teams that are mainly about outlasting the opponent and thus not outrunning them aren't directly hurt by Sticky Web.
Sticky Web itself only affects offense. Sticky web teams, however, are inherently comprised of wallbreakers (turned sweepers under webs), making stall significantly easier to "break" without subjecting the team to huge matchup issues (since sticky web itself hurts offense).

Compare this to trick room, for example, where it excels vs offense but really struggles vs stall given the lack of focus on longevity and the fact that there is a huge risk of underspeeding stallmons.
 
I used webs in late XY / early ORAS, and what I can say is Shuckle does certainly not need to move up based on it's webs set. Bisharp and Serp give webs teams hell, also the Latis, Mega Diancie and Gengar are very problematic (there are more as well). You have to run so mich to check these mons you lose the ability to abuse webs. Alot of the time they were a liability, and my best memories of that team were Mega Chomp sweeps, which were infrequent, and Bisharp revenging basically entire teams when I was on my last 2 mons, that being my opps Bish weakness that saved me, and I didn't need webs up for that. Basically, webs sucks right now as alot of the metas best mons simply don't care about it or are helped by it, in the case of Bish and Serp.

However, I consider Shuckle to be a very unexplored mon. It has sets whih are dismissed with very little reason, such as the infestation + encore set mentioned, and contrary shell smash, which does have it's fair share of flaws, but can actually put in some work when it's checks are killed. I think that Sheckle should stay where it is until it's defensive sets are explored (with replay proof, not theory which is all I've seen on these sets, other than destroying low ladder with it), then if they are bad we send it to C- or keep it the same, if they are good we move it to where they are considered to be at (which is probably within a 1 subrank deviation from now).
 
I'm pretty positive Halycon knows what Diggersby does lol. He was just asking is there some noticeable trait that differentiates to warrant a team slot other than the obvious stuff that's sort of a given.
The question is, what do you think it needs to be considered good? In terms of power its among the best, easily on par with things like Kyub, Crawdaunt, Heracross and Medi. Its speed isnt the highest but more than enough for a wallbreaker and it has powerful stab priority to mitigate its speed against offense. LO 4 attacks with Wildcharge has basicly no switch ins as it 2hkoes just about everything. Its stab coverage is excellent so that one moveslot is enough to cover all possible counters except for Ghourgeist i guess (who still gets killed if you decide to run fire punch/knock off over Wild Charge). Pair it with a pivot to absorb hits and bring it in and this thing will cause a severe headache for your opponent.
And it doesnt stop there. It can also use an SD set that can just walk all over the opponents team if the opponent doesnt have something faster that can live +2 LO Quickattack (which isnt much). And with its access to U-turn it also makes for an excellent scarf user that can easily sweep late game once you removed either the EQ resists or the return resists because anything else just dies with little prior damage. The scarf set is lacking the defensiv utility of Lando-T but is alot more threatening offensively because it has 2 dangerous stabs to work with, not just one. Its also fast enough to outpace things like mlop and mman. It can even be used as an offensive spike setter if it wants to.

Its easily as good as most mons in A- and even better than some in A (looking at you Weavile, honestly wtf is this thing doing there?) it just has the same problem that so many things in the B ranks have, its not all that popular atm. Still it has more than enough going for it to justify it for a team slot with ease.

Lets just compare it to Kyub who is in A-. Both can 2hko the entire meta, Kyub has more bulk, recovery and a bit more speed (which hardly even matters for its role) while Digger resists SR, doesnt care about Twave and has priority.Digger is also more flexible in terms of what it can run. When i am looking for a non mega wallbreaker these 2 along with Gengar are the first to consider for me and imo Digger is easily on par with Kyub, its just a question of which one fits better into your team.

And since your always asking for replays http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-229086816

Unfortunately i don't have a good one showing the LO 4 attacks set which is my favorite but this one shows quite well what Digger can do, it took out 2 mons and did massive damage to hippo and if i had been using LO instead of Sash it would have killed Hippo and Starmie as well.
 
Access to Rocks, a somewhat better movepool, Static to troll a few physical attackers, Pain Split I guess

Calcs: Stunfisk vs the OU metagame

*lots of calcs*
Yeah see that's not the way he was using him. It's a shitty tank yeah, and running full defensive tank is really bad. It's really for hyper offense and runs modest with a decent amount of SpAtk and only enough bulk to do it's job against a few key threats (Thundurus, Talon, Mega Manectric, Raikou) which a surprising number of HO teams tend to struggle with. It brings to the table SR, Volt Switch immunity, safety from these threats, as well as pseudo-phazing/sleep, paralysis spreading, and decent offensive power.

It has literally no place on any other type of team and is incredibly niche, but from my experience so far it's a niche that's been real and helpful. I understand if it's not going to get ranked, but I do want to at least make sure that it's given a fair analysis haha.
 
Excadrill should remain at A: The current metagame is really not desirable for Excadrill. One of Excadrill's main roles, a spinner, is very hard to perform successfully at the moment. The common rockers of the tier, such as Hippowdon, Skarmory, Garchomp, and Landorus, all beat Excadrill and very easily prevent a spin. With fatter balance being the dominant playstyle, Excadrill also struggles to put its Sand Rush to good use. It still is deadly vs many teams, but the teams consisting of Hippo/Rotom/Skarm make it very difficult for Excadrill to thrive. Despite these flaws, Excadrill is still a very viable pokemon with its Life Orb set. The raw power of this set makes it very hard to switch into, as even pokemon like Slowbro take a ton from LO eq. Overall, Excadrill is a pretty mediocre hazard remover but is still a deadly sweeper vs many faster teams.
 

Martin

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Excadrill should remain at A: The current metagame is really not desirable for Excadrill. One of Excadrill's main roles, a spinner, is very hard to perform successfully at the moment. The common rockers of the tier, such as Hippowdon, Skarmory, Garchomp, and Landorus, all beat Excadrill and very easily prevent a spin. With fatter balance being the dominant playstyle, Excadrill also struggles to put its Sand Rush to good use. It still is deadly vs many teams, but the teams consisting of Hippo/Rotom/Skarm make it very difficult for Excadrill to thrive. Despite these flaws, Excadrill is still a very viable pokemon with its Life Orb set. The raw power of this set makes it very hard to switch into, as even pokemon like Slowbro take a ton from LO eq. Overall, Excadrill is a pretty mediocre hazard remover but is still a deadly sweeper vs many faster teams.
You seem to be forgetting about the bulky spinner set, which is really good and anti-meta, allowing it to take on a lot of the things that its offensive set struggles with. SpD Excadrill is an amazing spinner in its own right, and if anything the two sets in conjunction push it to A+ imo.
 
Tbh the bulky spinner set is like extremely overrated and this is coming from a person that has used it very often. It still struggles against fat rockers like skarm and hippo and being a spinner that loses to basically every common rocker is pretty sucky. It has horrible defenses and a ton of common weaknesses to stuff like fighting, water, fire, and ground type moves which are everywhere in the tier. It lacks recovery and in my eyes the only thing that really saves it from being complete trash is that it can set up rocks and spin them away which can be nice for teams that need a rocker and hazard remover in 1 slot, while also being able to screw over mega sableye with moldbreaker toxic.

I completely agree with ABR, it's not even that good of a spinner and losing to basically all the common rockers is annoying. With fat teams on the rise, I think excadrill is fine in A right now.
 
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