Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Dilwar]

Just a small nom:

Mega Beedrill B -> B-

This thing is just a tad overrated imo. The meta changes aren't nice to it at all, with Tankchomp now being the most common Pokemon in the tier.

1 | Garchomp | 26.38926% | 171474 | 13.324% | 140153 | 13.911%

^From OU 1825+

Lando-T, be it Scarfed or bulky also gives it problems, and is very common too.

3 | Landorus-Therian | 19.92125% | 181776 | 14.125% | 155484 | 15.433%

Bisharp is at second who forces Sucker Punch mind games, and can live any one hit giving it an advantage.

252+ Atk Mega Beedrill Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 214-252 (78.6 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Beedrill: 337-398 (124.3 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Things that wall it like Scizor and Skarmory are 7th and 8th respectively. Other increasingly popular things like Hippowdon wall it too. Overall, there is an increase in usage for all things that give it problems, making Mega Beedrill struggle to perform well in this meta. Tbh I think B was a little too high in the first place, rocks weakness and dying to priority is a massive drawback.

 

[Martin]

Tbh the bulky spinner set is like extremely overrated and this is coming from a person that has used it very often. It still struggles against fat rockers like skarm and hippo and being a spinner that loses to basically every common rocker is pretty sucky. It has horrible defenses and a ton of common weaknesses to stuff like fighting, water, fire, and ground type moves which are everywhere in the tier. It lacks recovery and in my eyes the only thing that really saves it from being complete trash is that it can set up rocks and spin them away which can be nice for teams that need a rocker and hazard remover in 1 slot, while also being able to screw over mega sableye with moldbreaker toxic.

I completely agree with ABR, it's not even that good of a spinner and losing to basically all the common rockers is annoying. With fat teams on the rise, I think excadrill is fine in A right now.

Maybe it is. However, if Exca were to rise, it would be weighted more towards the SD+Sand Rush set, with the various Rapid Spin variants having less influence on its rank. Considering it's position based around a role as a spinner when it often runs SD>Rapid Spin (i.e. its best set ATM) isn't the right way to go about it, and imo Sand Rush+SD is alone enough to get it almost all the way to A+ material, with the Rapid Spin variants giving it the final push in that direction.

 

[bludz]

The main reason Excadrill should be considered for a rise is the metagame shifting from bulky balance back to offense somewhat. The rise in Weavile really speaks to this and the ability of Manaphy to obliterate fat cores has gone a long way in helping this process.

An offensive metagame favors Sand offense more than a bulky balance one because pokemon like Rotom-Wash, Skarmory, Hippowdon, and Slowbro are seen less. I guess in fairness although Slowbro is on the decline, Skarmory is on the rise (though a lot of them are SpDef which cannot handle SD Exca) but Rotom-Wash has gotten a bit less effective and teams are adjusting to Hippowdon with lures like Toxic on RH Garchomp and so on. So while balance is still a good playstyle and may see a rise with Landorus gone (although we do still have some monstrous balance breakers running around), in general offense has gotten better again and this makes Sand Rush Excadrill an excellent cleaner, only checked on offense by a few things like mons that haven't been worn down and priority users. Also Mega Garchomp's viability has risen which would indicate more effectiveness for Sand offense and it also helps lure in and weaken or remove the aforementioned counters to Excadrill. Last but not least Rocky Helmet Garchomp has pretty much taken the place of defensive Landorus-T and this is good for Excadrill which has fewer intimidates to deal with and can spam Earthquake a little more freely. On top of that it means Choice Scarf Excadrill is actually a more effective set now that we don't see Scarf Landorus-T everywhere which was probably the #1 check on offense to Scarf Drill.

So yeah as of right now I'm most likely favoring a rise to A+ for Excadrill, but I am open to hearing arguments that it should stay in A.

 

[MikeDawg]

I used webs in late XY / early ORAS, and what I can say is Shuckle does certainly not need to move up based on it's webs set. Bisharp and Serp give webs teams hell, also the Latis, Mega Diancie and Gengar are very problematic (there are more as well). You have to run so mich to check these mons you lose the ability to abuse webs. Alot of the time they were a liability, and my best memories of that team were Mega Chomp sweeps, which were infrequent, and Bisharp revenging basically entire teams when I was on my last 2 mons, that being my opps Bish weakness that saved me, and I didn't need webs up for that. Basically, webs sucks right now as alot of the metas best mons simply don't care about it or are helped by it, in the case of Bish and Serp.

However, I consider Shuckle to be a very unexplored mon. It has sets whih are dismissed with very little reason, such as the infestation + encore set mentioned, and contrary shell smash, which does have it's fair share of flaws, but can actually put in some work when it's checks are killed. I think that Sheckle should stay where it is until it's defensive sets are explored (with replay proof, not theory which is all I've seen on these sets, other than destroying low ladder with it), then if they are bad we send it to C- or keep it the same, if they are good we move it to where they are considered to be at (which is probably within a 1 subrank deviation from now).

You seem to be under the impression that sticky web "teams" need 5 wallbreakers. You need to run checks to these mona to begin with, do you not? Pursuit support easily removes latis and co (which should be run on most hazard stacking teams. Why is sticky webs impossible to keep up compared to, say, spikes?), and checking +2 bisharp really isn't that difficult (run a quagsire or a scizor or etc. You know, the things you run to counter/check bisharp anyway). Mega diancie is indeed problematic, but magic bounce users are problematic to any playstyle. Given that dianice pretty much needs to switch into shuckle, it isn't incredibly difficult to take advantage of.

Sticky web teams are not completely reliant on sticky web (they hardly need to rely on it anyway. ANY team can abuse sticky web, even if it's for the purpose of having your defensive mons outspeed more opposing mons than they usually can). They defibitely help the team in very obvious ways. The notion of a "sticky web team" is impractical in ou. That doesnt mean that sticky web isn't perhaps the best hazard in the game, only being held back by distribution. There is plenty of room to fit in the neccesary support mons (bisharp checks, serp doesnt even matter unless your only means of dealing with it was outspeeding. Mons like talonflame dont care anyway, a way to dispose of/check diancie, pursuit trapper... Common things!). Most of them are the things that normal hazard stacking teams need. Again, 75% of the a-ranks are grounded. With the flexibility that sticky web allows, it's easier to fit in checks to those non-grounded mons.

Shuckle without sticky web is dumb. It isn't worth discussion.

 

[BlueLobster]

MikeDawg my point is that you are devoting so many teamslots to checking pokes who are problematic to webs you have like 1 slot left to abuse it, at which point you are giving yourself more trouble and putting so much pressure on that one mon. You need a solid switch in to +2 Bish, something that can take a Serp without reling on it's speed, a birdspam check/gravity setter, Shuckle, a M.Diancie killer, Scarf revenger, and 1-2 abusers. It's just an awful lot of work to build a solid webs team, and most the time it just seems like you would do just as well without webs. I can't think of another playstyle that's stuck with a really exploitable mon, and a boosted weakness to a very prominent mon that you end up literally dancing around most of the time. The playstyle is basically made to face offense, but is screwed by the most common HO mon. Your commenthat said something like webs teams rarely need webs basically says you don't need to have webs up, just drop Shuckle for a better rocks user and not need such a strong Bish check to me, if you're rarely going to need it, what's the point in having it? Just an fyi that all of S rank don't give a damn about webs (proir to megaing for the megas), and most of the grounded mons you mention are going to get outsped by the common mons on webs. The main fast stuff you want to target be webs (Torn-T, M.Diancie, Serp) don't care about it. If you think about it, most HO teams are fine with it. On my HO team, there's only MLop and Raikou who are harmed too much (the rest are scarf Keld, Bish, Torn-T and Lando-T), and Bish more than makes up for that.

Your last secentence is exactly my point. I see stuff like "non hazards Shcukle sucks lol", but I never see any valid points or replays that prove that.

 

[MikeDawg]

MikeDawg my point is that you are devoting so many teamslots to checking pokes who are problematic to webs you have like 1 slot left to abuse it, at which point you are giving yourself more trouble and putting so much pressure on that one mon. You need a solid switch in to +2 Bish, something that can take a Serp without reling on it's speed, a birdspam check/gravity setter, Shuckle, a M.Diancie killer, Scarf revenger, and 1-2 abusers. It's just an awful lot of work to build a solid webs team, and most the time it just seems like you would do just as well without webs. I can't think of another playstyle that's stuck with a really exploitable mon, and a boosted weakness to a very prominent mon that you end up literally dancing around most of the time. The playstyle is basically made to face offense, but is screwed by the most common HO mon. Your commenthat said something like webs teams rarely need webs basically says you don't need to have webs up, just drop Shuckle for a better rocks user and not need such a strong Bish check to me, if you're rarely going to need it, what's the point in having it? Just an fyi that all of S rank don't give a damn about webs (proir to megaing for the megas), and most of the grounded mons you mention are going to get outsped by the common mons on webs. The main fast stuff you want to target be webs (Torn-T, M.Diancie, Serp) don't care about it. If you think about it, most HO teams are fine with it. On my HO team, there's only MLop and Raikou who are harmed too much (the rest are scarf Keld, Bish, Torn-T and Lando-T), and Bish more than makes up for that.

Your last secentence is exactly my point. I see stuff like "non hazards Shcukle sucks lol", but I never see any valid points or replays that prove that.

You make it seem like no other team needs to deal with these mons.

Take any offensive/balanced team and replace the rocks setter/some defensive mon with a shuckle, and you have a sticky web team. Throw in a bisharp counter (there are plenty of ways to deal with a quick serperior...) and you're golden. Keep in mind that checking bisharp is much easier than it otherwise would be since it is at -1 speed. Sucker punch mindgames galore (even if you have to play carefully to make sure that your switchins are healthy enough to not get completly wrecked). You can even just not set webs until after bisharp is dealt with (via lures, magnezone, chipping away until any of your mons can kill it, etc.), and since your team is not shuckle+5 slow wallbreakers, you will be perfectly fine.

Your comment on shuckle being super exploitable is contradictory to your desire for exploration of its non-sticky web capabilities.

Again, "sticky web team" is comparable to "spike stacking team". You need something to discourage hazard removal and something to discourage flying mons (stealth rocks comes to mind, which shuckle has). If your team doesn't look mostly standard, you are doing something wrong.

 

[Shruggy]

Minor update:

Alakazam: B+ > A-
Mega Tyranitar: B- > B
Jellicent: Unranked > D
Meloetta: Unranked > D
Banette (Mega): Unranked > C
Medicham (Mega): B > B+
Doublade: D > Unranked

Those just happened, maybe more later.

Edit: In convo with team right now and here's what we're discussing. Some we're considering others we're trying to just gauge ideas, mostly the latter.

Discussion Points:

Charizard X: A+ > S
Mega Venusaur: A > A+
Amoonguss: B > B-
Chesnaught: B > B-
Quagsire: B > B-
Scolipede: B > B+
Reuniclus: B> B+
Mandibuzz: B- > C+
Kabutops: B+ > B

Edit2: Excadrill: A > A+

I'd like to contribute to the discussion regarding Mega Venusaur since I feel like its the mon that has carried me to new heights.

Basically today i achieved a new highest rating (1560) with a gxe of 81. While this is a very modest achievement of course for the vast majority of people it is something im quietly pleased about and M-Venu was pretty much the centerpiece of the team and put in so much work. Im using the defensive set currently so im going to mainly be posting about that but i will add my opinion on the underrated offensive set too.

Defensive Venu puts most of its evs into HP/defense and becomes a self-sustaining tank, usually with the following 3 moves: Giga/Synth/S-bomb which is pretty much all it really needs to be successful in a similar vein to Clefable's 3 slots of softboiled/cm/moonblast. The last slot gives it so much utility its incredible, feel like trolling switchins? How about using Knock off. Or Earthquake for the obvious heatran switch. Or leech seed for further recovery. HP fire/sleep powder and even substitute can be used to great effect if that is what will compliment your team structure and suddenly half of those 'safe' switchins are now not so much of a threat.

0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 96-114 (26.3 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 152-182 (41.7 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0- Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 248-292 (64.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Its bulk is also not to be under-sold. Yes there are many mons with higher defensive stats but thick fat + its natural resists means that its weak to just two types of attacks, neither of which are all _that_ common in the same way that electric/grass/water/fighting/fairy are. Thanks to Lando-i going really the only S rank mon it is threatened by is Metagross which can be covered by teammates. Its ability to check literally any set of M-alteria is a key part of its success given how popular M-alteria is.

Its offensive set can be pretty damn scary. It has rather mediocre speed but in a way that kinda works for it as it can instead invest in HP + modest nature meaning that with its stabs it can do serious damage on opposing teams getting a high chance of 2hko on latios with sludgebomb and 2hko on ferro with hp fire and it still retains a fair amount of bulk that the defensive set gets.

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 142-168 (47.4 - 56.1%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 283-338 (78.8 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

However of course it has its flaws, multiple entry hazards and burns can really hinder your effectiveness but these pretty much apply to 90% of mons anyway so i would not consider these to be crippling weaknesses as they are not inherent flaws with venu just flaws that everyone has to deal with whatever mons they are using. Proper team support for M-Venu can lead him to being an unbreakable wall while still hitting things extremely hard.

So M-Venu for A+ :D

 

[BlueLobster]

MikeDawg So your saying I should use a poor, exploitable setter and something passive like Hippo so I can use webs and not be destroyed by Bish? Seems legit.

Every other hazard has a setter who beats MDiancie, albeit narrowly in the case of TSpikes, and none of the TSpikers (other than maybe Forry?) should lead, and TSpikes are usually set up later anyway, and are more of a stall luxury that just comes with using Tenta as a spinner, rather than something you specifically use a poor mon for. I'm not saying that webs is not very effective V some teams, but against some very common mons it has some rather large issues. It just seems that the good matchups you have don't warrant all the bad ones you have, and you are basically forced to run balanced to get a good enough Bish check and there is no offensive setter, meaning you can kill the momentum webs aims to obtain pretty easily.

This is the last thing I'm going to say on webs, as I don't care too much where Shuckle goes, as long as it doesn't go up based on webs as it's got far more problems than it had in XY, and I don't believe it was moved since then (correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[DennisEG]

Charizard X: > S : In XY this thing was running everywhere because his raw power and an effective set up move like DD easily sweeping unprepare teams, but with the new Megas in ORAS and new speed tier this monster drop a lil bit in usage, on top on that Altaria Mega is a solid counter bar Iron Tail ZardX which is pretty common now on days, there is hipos everywhere too but still if ur able to set up a DD ur op is screw if lack of this 2 mons at full. It is true that is hard to set up now with zardX but the bulkyer version con wow still is annoying af walling a lot of the meta, i still dont know how this monster drop to A+ sr weakness isnt a problem cuz every mon need a support of the team, in term on longetivity Flare blitz is a lot of recoil but if the oponnet lack of priority doesnt matter if u end with 1% and most of the time u only use flare blitz once or twice after DD so u still sweep teams.

Mega Venusaur: A i talk bout that here http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ost-1054-page-43.3536420/page-42#post-6256384

Amoonguss: > B- Ye im agree with this drop i've not seen amoongus since Torn-T gain rise cuz now this is a new Keldeo switch in aparently, i'm not total agree but works, speaking of amoongus with so many powerfull attacker this poor mushroom can't do much except put to sleep one mon and take a couple of hits, in the current metagame this mon only lose momentum, yes checks Fairies, Water types, Spedef gliscor to extend but also means free switch ins for talon, heatran, metagross, torn-t, kazam even bisharp and lopu. Isnt than effective like in XY but still a great mon that deserves that B- rank.

Chesnaught: >B- almost the same argument than amoongus, ability to set up spikes and takes a couple hits but too passive.

Quagsire: > B- This mon isnt capable now to take hits at all, i think is outclassed a bit for Hippowdon although lack of Unaware doesnt needed cuz his amazing bulk to take hit even +1 and retaliate back with EQ/Toxic/Whirlwind etc, Unaware isnt a reason to keep that B rank cuz the megas are too strong that doesnt need boost to 2hko like lopu or Altaria than are capable to 2hko after 2sr switch or 1 spike, metagross pack gk , etc.

Scolipede: B I think the lead is the only scolo i've seen bar Finals OST, and remove hazards isnt hard this days at least 9/10 pack defog/spinner so i've seen no use for scolo to climb the ranking, on top of that if u wannas run offensive there is so many switch for this mon like Bulky Chomp, Hippo, Lando-T etc, is checked for priority due to poorly defense and type week x2 to sr so yee.

Reuniclus: > B+ totally agree with this beat easily other CM users and the coverage isnt bad at all u can run Shadow Ball / Focus Miss depending of ur teammates to remove resistences/immunitys, only is threaten by Scizor but again just put a zone there and ur ready to sweep, although i've saw a lot of weavile latelly but still is handle cuz weavile is easily wear down with rocks + LO recoil. Also reuniclus due to his ability and his typing fit really good in the meta rn, due to his bulk is capable to set in mons like Lopu, torn-t bar confusion hax, bulky mons, even take 2 meteor mash from Metagross on top of that force a lot of switch ins for fear a get sweep so u can rack up damage on every switch in very easily. i've not seen TR set in OU :[

Mandibuzz: > C+ same argument that ches and quag, new megas are too much.

Kabutops: > B i've not see on of those in ages, Swampert mega outclassed in rain teams, still good mon but not than great anymore.

Excadrill: > A+ Well i always though exca was A+, sand is way too good and easy to play with, specially now that Hippo is more common and more bulkyer than ttar if u need bulk over pursuit trap, have access to SD and almost perfect coverage movepool except doesnt hit rotom and if skarm lack of whirwind is set up fodder, not only in sand this mon is usefull the scarf moldbreaker set is viable too, bulky spinner also i've seen alot due to set up SR without care about Magic Bounce, AV catch of guard some strong fairies that think can KO'ed. the typing is really gud too due to resintence of Flying, electric, Steel which are very common type attacks in OU, Sand or Scarf i think are the more viable set rn bulky chomp isnt a switch to eq getting 2hko (roll with SR) and Hippo takes also get 2hko after +2 9 (roll with SR) so yeah is a monster specially in sand after +2, can break easily balance build open holes for another teammate

 

[Mistress Remilia]

This isn't a nomination, but a subject i'd like to bring there.
With the recent ban of Landorus-I, few persons thought that Nidoking could be its ( way less effective ) successor.
Yes, it's way slower. But it still is quite a powerful threat who's quite difficult to wall given the amount of options he has.
I haven't tested it myself, so i'll simply ask:

Does Nidoking deserve a D Rank/Higher Rank?

 

[Valmanway]

The community can call me crazy if it wants, but I can definitely see Nidoking being at least D-Rank. With great Sheer Force moves in Sludge Wave, Earth Power, Fire Blast, and Ice Beam, Nidoking can OHKO a bunch of bulky walls, such as Mega Altaria, Mega Charizard X, Garchomp, Heatran, Landorus-T, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Gliscor, and much like Landorus, 2HKOes a large portion of the bulky attackers and walls in OU, such as Assault Vest Azumarill (very rarely an OHKO), Clefable (often an OHKO) Mega Sableye, stallbreaker Talonflame, Hippowdon, Slowbro, Mega Venusaur, Celebi, Jirachi, and Klefki after Light Screen. Nidoking's pretty much like a poor man's Landorus stat-wise with better coverage options and an arguably better defensive typing; very little wants to switch into this thing, and it can take out a unique combination of threats. Being able to absorb Toxic Spikes and Toxic gives it a nice niche defensively, and it has some very convenient resistances to Fighting-, Fairy-, Rock-, and Poison-type moves to allow it to take a hit and retaliate.

Now that isn't to say that Nidoking lacks any flaws, as 81 / 77 / 75 defenses are only decent at best, base 85 Speed won't be outrunning sweepers anytime soon, base 85 Special Attack can leave Nidoking missing out on guaranteed OHKOes, lacking the Spikes immunity Landorus had can make repeated switching burdensome, and being weak to Water-, Ice-, Psychic-, and Ground-type moves can often force Nidoking to switch out, making Nidoking's job hard to pull off overall.

Despite these big flaws, I think there's enough merit to adding Nidoking to the viability list. I support a rise to D-Rank for Nidoking.

 

[Eraxxer]

I think that Nidoking deserves to be ranked - it doesn't hit as hard as Landorus did, nor is it as fast, nor does it have access to Rock Polish, but now that Lando is gone, Nidoking definitely fills a big role. With outstanding coverage, pretty decent typing, and the ability to usually OHKO Clefable with STAB Sludge Wave is definitely a big boost.

Pre Landorus ban, Nidoking pretty much wasn't ranked for the one reason that Lando outclassed it - now with Lando gone, Nidoking really fills that niche without much, if any, competition.

With Sheer Force boosted Ice Beam, Sludge Wave, Earth Power, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt, Superpower for the fat blob, and other things that are mostly useless but could have niches in OU such as Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Rock Slide, and the elemental punches, Nidoking has a great niche in OU, as it hits much harder than Nidoqueen does.

Nidoking to at least D rank.

 

[pika pal]

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-234 (58.3 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 226-267 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nidoking's power isn't TOO shabby for a non-Mega, and Toxicroak has proven that while not phenomenal, Base 85 Speed is usable in OU. Nidoking's coverage makes it easier for him to hit targets for SE damage compared to Landorus usually hitting neutrally (hard, but still neutral), which does help offset his lower offensive stat in trying to fill Landorus-I's void.

Nidoking has quite a few issues, but he has at least enough things going for him to pick up some of the scraps Landorus left behind.

 

[Martin]

If Nidoking gets ranked, Nidoqueen should be at least 1 sub-rank above it tbh. While it can't wallbreak as effectively, its higher bulk means that it has more utility on more teams - being able to viably run SR/T-Spikes while also taking a hit or two. IMO, Nidoking should be at E when its implemented and Nidoqueen at D because on virtually every team I'd prefer to run another wallbreaker while I'd happily use Nidoqueen if I needed a strong, somewhat bulky T-Spiker tbh. However, they both have particularly noticable flaws which make it debatable as to whether either should exceed E rank or not. I think that we should let the metagame settle down a bit and test out the Nidos a little more before we come to any conclusions with them.

 

[Swagata]

Regarding Nidoking getting D/Higher ranked: If it is being compared with Lando-I, it is gonna be outclassed. There are several Pokémon which fit the roll of a wallbreaker that Lando-I had better than Nidoking. Some of those are Mega Gardevoir, Mega Herracross, Mega Medicham and also some which do not take up a mega slot namely Kyurem-B, Thundurus-I, Choice Band Victini and few others which I may have missed. Right now, OU has enough wallbreakers which are able to fill in for Lando-I. I agree that they might not be so good when compared to Lando-I but they all have their own niches. Nidoking lacks both power and speed and will not be able to perform as the other Pokémon that I mentioned. IMO Nidoqueen should remain unranked for now.

 

[Master B8s]

Regarding nidoking, yes it should be ranked on the fact that it is a poor mans landorus with better coverage, but nidoqueen shouldn't get ranked. If you want offensive nidoqueen, use nidoking. Defensive sets I see are mostly outclassed by hippo, who both set up rocks and phase. I know the poison type brings a fighting resist, but the bulk hippo brings just evens that out. Not to mention it looses to all the spinners, most notably starmie (both offensive and defensive) and excadrill (can't switch in because of earth power). The fighting resist doesn't really help when the most common fighting type, keldeo beats it with its water stab. Reliable recovery is another issue I have. As someone who uses nidoqueen in UU, it is bulky, but does get worn down with repeated attacks, while hippo can just slack them off and stay healthy. Nidoqueen has toxic spikes, but that honestly isn't enough to get it a rank imo. In conclusion Nidoking for D-Rank and Keep Nidoqueen Unranked.

 

[Baharoth]

Regarding Nidoking getting D/Higher ranked: If it is being compared with Lando-I, it is gonna be outclassed. There are several Pokémon which fit the roll of a wallbreaker that Lando-I had better than Nidoking. Some of those are Mega Gardevoir, Mega Herracross, Mega Medicham and also some which do not take up a mega slot namely Kyurem-B, Thundurus-I, Choice Band Victini and few others which I may have missed. Right now, OU has enough wallbreakers which are able to fill in for Lando-I. I agree that they might not be so good when compared to Lando-I but they all have their own niches. Nidoking lacks both power and speed and will not be able to perform as the other Pokémon that I mentioned. IMO Nidoqueen should remain unranked for now.

Nidoking/queen have one important feat over the other wallbreakers though. Their ability to set rocks/toxic spikes. Especially considering that their coverage is almost flawless with just stabs + flamethrower. The only thing that can wall the set is Chansey and with Toxic Spikes in the last slot they can use her as hazard bait similar to Spikes Greninja back then. Resisting/beeing immune to SR/Toxic (Spikes) and Twave themselves is also nice. The niche is there for sure and going by theory alone (didn't have the chance to test them so far) id even say that they have potential for more than just a D rank but that remains to be seen.

 

[Martin]

Regarding nidoking, yes it should be ranked on the fact that it is a poor mans landorus with better coverage, but nidoqueen shouldn't get ranked. If you want offensive nidoqueen, use nidoking. Defensive sets I see are mostly outclassed by hippo, who both set up rocks and phase. I know the poison type brings a fighting resist, but the bulk hippo brings just evens that out. Not to mention it looses to all the spinners, most notably starmie (both offensive and defensive) and excadrill (can't switch in because of earth power). The fighting resist doesn't really help when the most common fighting type, keldeo beats it with its water stab. Reliable recovery is another issue I have. As someone who uses nidoqueen in UU, it is bulky, but does get worn down with repeated attacks, while hippo can just slack them off and stay healthy. Nidoqueen has toxic spikes, but that honestly isn't enough to get it a rank imo. In conclusion Nidoking for D-Rank and Keep Nidoqueen Unranked.

For starters, Nidoking is HEAVILY outclassed as a wallbreaker. In addition, in its main niche over wallbreakers not called Dragalgae (Toxic Spikes) is actually outclassed by Nidoqueen, who has a far easier time laying them down due to the better bulk and ability to viably run a second hazard (Stealth Rock) without compromising its niche. There are flaws that I see with your argument; firstly Nidoqueen isn't being used as a wall (which is what your comparison to Hippow implies). It is being used as a tank: its typing gives it neat resists (including Fighting (allows it to switch in on stuff like Conkeldurr's Superpower or anything else using it for coverage) and an immunity to Electric), its bulk allows it it use these to a good extent while allowing it to reliably switch in against neutral or resisted hits, its damage output is far from shabby and it gives good utility on its team. Your post shows a lack of understanding as to how you use Nidoqueen, and Nidoking is just outclassed whether it uses T-Spikes or goes all-out offensive. As Baharoth said, Nidoqueen gets walled to hell and back by Chansey/Blissey... but it can just use them as setup fodder for T-Spikes - allowing it to put them in a position where their Natural Cure does not save them from being worn down by residual damage (and doing the same thing to Celebi - which can be a pain to ware down itself due to Natural Cure).

tl;dr: Nidoqueen is better than Nidoking.

 

[AM]

The nidos more than likely will be E when I have actual time to sort through some stuff compiled by team. D is sort of pushing it, especially for nidoking.

 

[DaKakz]

I personally think the nidos in OU are better than stuff in D-Rank like regular Venusaur or Shaymin but whatevs...

Edit: I mean they are similair to Dragalge as in they hit extremely hard while having the ability to put TSpikes and having a nice defensive typing.

 

[Phione]

Regarding Nidoking getting D/Higher ranked: If it is being compared with Lando-I, it is gonna be outclassed.

Well of course Nidoking's going to be outclassed when compared with Lando-I. Lando-I was easily the best Pokémon in the tier and was banned easily. Lando-I is also no longer in the tier to be compared with Nidoking. It seems like you're grasping for straws here. That said, I agree, Nido for D. While it can't completely fill Lando-I's role and has a ton of flaws, I do believe it is about as good, or better, than say, Shaymin, who is almost entirely outclassed by Celebi.

 

[Kutscher]

Why venusaur is listed? He is very niche (more than things am don't want to rank in D like stunfisk, exploud, slurpuff, ludicolo, swellow and the nidos)

 

[Sochlo]

Shaymin is not outclassed by Celebi lol they aim to do completely different things. Seed Flare is annoying to deal with as well as making Shaymin a potent wall breaker and is the reason it's ranked.

Venusaur is a staple on sun teams and is legitimately threatening with access to Growth. Surprisingly hard to wall with options like Sleep Powder to surprise its checks. Plus it's the best Chlorophyll user so it'll always have a spot in sun teams, unlike Ludicolo who struggles to justify a team slot.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Why venusaur is listed? He is very niche (more than things am don't want to rank in D like stunfisk, exploud, slurpuff, ludicolo, swellow and the nidos)

Venusaur is a highly potent Sun attacker, which may be a small niche, but one noticeable enough to warrant a rank. Hence why it is D.

 

[Martin]

Venu was used on a few tourney teams to good success too. Hence, it is ranked.