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Serious Blankism
- Thread starter Holiday
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all of those maybes are valid - valid in that in a real world, they might have undesired consequences. However, the mistake a lot of people make is they think accepting this precludes fully blaming the perpetrator. If a girl goes to a club and drinks a bunch of drinks that she hasn't seen served, she is being stupid because someone could spike those drinks and date rape her. You can't just ignore the existence of bad people on the principle of exercising your freedoms. If she got raped, that is as much a crime as if she took more precaution with her drinking habits, and the punishment should be no different. You also don't have to resign yourself to a world like this, you can change it. Just don't be so naive and think you can do anything you want just because it's right.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
But you aren't saying that you're statistically more likey to be made fun of. You are indeed saying that you're asking to be attacked.
Tehy, I'm definitely an advocate of situational "are you serious? Get over it", and I believe that there definitely is a threshold very short or never. That being said, 'existing' and being able to share those qualities that are an inherent, unobtrusive part of your character is definitely at the front of said threshold.
cookie i don't believe that we are free of consequences, and believing that will ever be the case is naive. there is a difference, though, between saying "there will always be consequences, and there is blame in not considering those" and "those people administering the consequences are in the right". The latter is the one that is happening atm.
Yes, it is dumb to not be careful with drinks. at the same time, tampering with the drinks is not justifiable. The two concepts (while connected) are not conceptually related
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The implication that us white people are one big team that has to stick together lest the darkies and feminazis overwhelm us is enough to invalidate your whole post.
tehy
Banned deucer.
good thing it was sarcasm
Never is a good option. I agree that people can take some preventive measures to not be victims, however, blaming them is quite dumb unless they are literally asking to get insulted / bullied / harassed (eg: "please insult me"), but if that's the case then they shouldn't even be considered victims.
"Different" people sharing personal info shouldn't be blamed if they get harassed or insulted, that doesn't make any sense. Yeah, they don't need to share anything with anyone and they could simply avoid interacting in a personal level with anyone on Smogon ever, but maybe they just want to socialize, make friends, share personal experiences and other similar stuff, because they are normal people just like everyone else ?_?
No, I'm not. I'm saying don't share this information if you don't want the possibility of being made fun of.
Knock it off with putting words in my mouth, it's not cute.
tehy
Banned deucer.
i don't know if it is, however.
obviously people doing this are huge assholes and it is important to remember that, i could be better at that, but putting your information out there does open you up to people being huge assholes, and I feel like...look, if we know certain actions lead to certain actions (not 'wearing provocative clothing', don't hit me with those strawmen), then how can we not place any blame on the person performing those actions at all?
and yes, doing that might make it easier for the assholes to keep doing it, but there are always going to be assholes on the net doing this kind of shit, so it's fair to try and get people to be better shielded against it and to let people know, well, you kinda had it coming. trolls are going to troll, and as much as we punish that behavior, we can't stop it totally
i haven't revealed any of my personal information either, this used to be standard on the internet and it really should still be. you don't need personal information, especially about race or skin color, to socialize, and you can give it only to trusted friends if you must
edit: something i wanted to ask-who has been insulted or harassed on the basis of their race? since when? can we get some examples? were these just trolls looking for weak points or what?
i know women get harassed but...that's such an obvious action, it's not one that can ever be ditched and i don't think it's one mods or top users bandwagon. that's just the creepy state of the internet and i don't see what can be done about it, feel free to suggest solutions though
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
Imo, a reasonable threshold is action vs trait. Being should not illicit bashing. Being gay, trans, black, etc. and sharing that information should not be attacked. These things cannot be changed. Whether this information is obtained through internet creeping or simply saying it, there is no obtrusion, and perpetuation of the culture that is fine with attacking traits should be anything but encouraged.
Actions are controllable. If you are acting stupid or mean or etc., then I think people have a right to react. This has its limits as well. Particularly when people gang up and engage in legitimate bullying.
When I mentioned using smogon to escape the real world, I thought that there was an obvious implication that doing so involved revealing themselves and seeking acceptance and legitimate social bands (you know, the things they cant find in the real world). Otherwise what is the point? Lol again, you shouldn't have to hide your identity out of fear that some asshole (more commonly, many assholes) will attack you for it
Of course, that is my opinion. Whether smogon policy coincides with that is another story (i thought it did?).
tehy you are being very cold-hearted. Probably because your sigilyph team is so ice-weak hehe :) ;D
Edit: also lol a way to discourage harrassment of females is to, you know, discourage it via moderation... You can't just erase sexism, but you can keep it off of the forums as much as possible
Actions are controllable. If you are acting stupid or mean or etc., then I think people have a right to react. This has its limits as well. Particularly when people gang up and engage in legitimate bullying.
When I mentioned using smogon to escape the real world, I thought that there was an obvious implication that doing so involved revealing themselves and seeking acceptance and legitimate social bands (you know, the things they cant find in the real world). Otherwise what is the point? Lol again, you shouldn't have to hide your identity out of fear that some asshole (more commonly, many assholes) will attack you for it
Of course, that is my opinion. Whether smogon policy coincides with that is another story (i thought it did?).
tehy you are being very cold-hearted. Probably because your sigilyph team is so ice-weak hehe :) ;D
Edit: also lol a way to discourage harrassment of females is to, you know, discourage it via moderation... You can't just erase sexism, but you can keep it off of the forums as much as possible
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It's sad to see senior staff spout the kind of reactionary rhetoric and defensiveness normally attributed to Deck Knight. It's sad, but ultimately not that surprising at this point. It's only surprising that it's so blatant and explicit, and I wonder if it's always been this way or I've just become more aware of it.
Years ago when I was actually active outside of Cong/CAP/CM (not so much CM anymore, I guess), I would always air grievances in public (relatively, anyway, since I guess Inside Scoop isn't "public") despite people insisting to take it to PM. I never fully understood why I would do that; I just couldn't stand the thought of talking to these people in private for more than a short while. Maybe it was due to some fault in my personality; maybe I was just a really socially avoidant person. Perhaps it was a sort of cowardice in that I didn't feel like my complaints were "legitimate" unless I made sure everybody knew about them. Maybe I felt I had so little control over my life outside of the internet, that I wasn't willing to add yet another stressor to that. This was what I believed, despite evidence to the contrary; I've had relatively little issues with talking to auths on PS! from before the Smogon merger, or leaders from other internet communities.
(To be clear, I recognize that airing grievances in public actually does have potentially major negative consequences that should be taken to account.)
I made excuses to myself to justify the Smogon culture and why anyone would condone it. For example, when the issue of paying Smogon staff came up, it seemed pretty damn unfair to me, but I stopped pursuing the issue when Zarel gave an argument against it. I trusted Zarel, it was a strong argument that I had no interest in countering, and, well, it was people like Rising_Dusk, Great Sage and the nuggetbridge people who had made me aware of this issue to begin with. Y'know... crazy people. And, well, when staff turned a blind eye to abuses perpetrated by promising buddies they wanted to promote, well, maybe they just knew something I didn't. They knew better than me. They seemed reasonable enough otherwise, more than a lot of badged users, at least. They were staff for a reason.
Over the years, I've learned more about the limits of human intelligence, especially the pervasive cognitive biases we fall victim to due to how our brains analyze sensory information. I've also, more recently, come to realize the sheer extent of racial, sexual, ableist, etc. discrimination in internet culture, and recognize that it really, really is okay to think that there's something really fucked up about all that. These growths in my perspective have given me a context behind why I felt such an aversion to Smogon's senior staff. It's because they're just so goddamn defensive, I'd even go so far as to say insecure. And it's in full display in this thread.
This isn't to say that all of the beliefs that I described are necessarily wrong. Maybe I really am, to an extent, cowardly / avoidant / unwilling to really engage. I also don't really care much about where Smogon's revenue streams go, and some of the people who left Smogon probably did have issues that couldn't reasonably be dealt with. The issue is more that these explanations are the only permissible ones.
This isn't to say that Smogon senior staff are intentionally cultivating this atmosphere. Intention is NOT the problem. It takes a huge amount of cynicism to suggest that it is. I'm bolding this because it's so important yet so often ignored in these kinds of threads. It's just that the excuses made by senior staff here don't cut it anymore, especially not in the wake of the many controversies regarding race and gender society at large has been forced to confront. Do you people really look at what people talk about in the news (most recently what's been going on with reddit and Twitter) only to come here and be surprised at the kinds of experiences that people are describing here? Are you so surprised as to adopt the same dismissive rhetoric used to downplay and demonize the people adversely affected by those other incidents?
I get that most if not all people involved in this kind of thing want everyone to get along. There are a couple of simple steps that can help achieve that:
1. Holy shit, stop being so defensive. Some of what's being said honestly comes across as borderline blackmail. When people complain, the most immediate response shouldn't be to demand evidence. Evidence is great, of course, but often with this kind of issue, the problems are so ingrained and widespread that it's hard even to recognize any of it as evidence of something that's fucked up, and even if we did, there's so much of it that it would take too long. This thread alone is too daunting to me to start making actual Deck Knight / Fox News comparisons. I'm not saying that you have to accept every accusation as true, but either all these people are in some crazy conspiracy to trash Smogon's reputation for some reason I can't comprehend, or something is really fucked up and even simply acknowledging this without reservation would help a lot.
2. Stop demonizing and blaming people who don't like you / have left Smogon. It's always the same shit whenever someone leaves Smogon, or threatens to leave Smogon, or severely loses interest and activity for community-related reasons. That user is/was unstable/unsociable/crazy. I was called neurotic just because I basically said I'd have no interest in CAP if it built for its own metagame. And I'm certain that people have called me worse for my other opinions.
I know billymills said we should avoid airing grievances specifically about Smogon politics. First of all, there's no way I'm taking this to Inside Scoop. Secondly, it's very relevant to the general topic of discrimination. Lastly, what else is there to talk about? This same general topic comes up regularly in Cong in various forms, and the "discussion" is almost exactly the same every time. When people like tehy just never get it no matter how often it's explained to them, what's the point?
Years ago when I was actually active outside of Cong/CAP/CM (not so much CM anymore, I guess), I would always air grievances in public (relatively, anyway, since I guess Inside Scoop isn't "public") despite people insisting to take it to PM. I never fully understood why I would do that; I just couldn't stand the thought of talking to these people in private for more than a short while. Maybe it was due to some fault in my personality; maybe I was just a really socially avoidant person. Perhaps it was a sort of cowardice in that I didn't feel like my complaints were "legitimate" unless I made sure everybody knew about them. Maybe I felt I had so little control over my life outside of the internet, that I wasn't willing to add yet another stressor to that. This was what I believed, despite evidence to the contrary; I've had relatively little issues with talking to auths on PS! from before the Smogon merger, or leaders from other internet communities.
(To be clear, I recognize that airing grievances in public actually does have potentially major negative consequences that should be taken to account.)
I made excuses to myself to justify the Smogon culture and why anyone would condone it. For example, when the issue of paying Smogon staff came up, it seemed pretty damn unfair to me, but I stopped pursuing the issue when Zarel gave an argument against it. I trusted Zarel, it was a strong argument that I had no interest in countering, and, well, it was people like Rising_Dusk, Great Sage and the nuggetbridge people who had made me aware of this issue to begin with. Y'know... crazy people. And, well, when staff turned a blind eye to abuses perpetrated by promising buddies they wanted to promote, well, maybe they just knew something I didn't. They knew better than me. They seemed reasonable enough otherwise, more than a lot of badged users, at least. They were staff for a reason.
Over the years, I've learned more about the limits of human intelligence, especially the pervasive cognitive biases we fall victim to due to how our brains analyze sensory information. I've also, more recently, come to realize the sheer extent of racial, sexual, ableist, etc. discrimination in internet culture, and recognize that it really, really is okay to think that there's something really fucked up about all that. These growths in my perspective have given me a context behind why I felt such an aversion to Smogon's senior staff. It's because they're just so goddamn defensive, I'd even go so far as to say insecure. And it's in full display in this thread.
This isn't to say that all of the beliefs that I described are necessarily wrong. Maybe I really am, to an extent, cowardly / avoidant / unwilling to really engage. I also don't really care much about where Smogon's revenue streams go, and some of the people who left Smogon probably did have issues that couldn't reasonably be dealt with. The issue is more that these explanations are the only permissible ones.
This isn't to say that Smogon senior staff are intentionally cultivating this atmosphere. Intention is NOT the problem. It takes a huge amount of cynicism to suggest that it is. I'm bolding this because it's so important yet so often ignored in these kinds of threads. It's just that the excuses made by senior staff here don't cut it anymore, especially not in the wake of the many controversies regarding race and gender society at large has been forced to confront. Do you people really look at what people talk about in the news (most recently what's been going on with reddit and Twitter) only to come here and be surprised at the kinds of experiences that people are describing here? Are you so surprised as to adopt the same dismissive rhetoric used to downplay and demonize the people adversely affected by those other incidents?
I get that most if not all people involved in this kind of thing want everyone to get along. There are a couple of simple steps that can help achieve that:
1. Holy shit, stop being so defensive. Some of what's being said honestly comes across as borderline blackmail. When people complain, the most immediate response shouldn't be to demand evidence. Evidence is great, of course, but often with this kind of issue, the problems are so ingrained and widespread that it's hard even to recognize any of it as evidence of something that's fucked up, and even if we did, there's so much of it that it would take too long. This thread alone is too daunting to me to start making actual Deck Knight / Fox News comparisons. I'm not saying that you have to accept every accusation as true, but either all these people are in some crazy conspiracy to trash Smogon's reputation for some reason I can't comprehend, or something is really fucked up and even simply acknowledging this without reservation would help a lot.
2. Stop demonizing and blaming people who don't like you / have left Smogon. It's always the same shit whenever someone leaves Smogon, or threatens to leave Smogon, or severely loses interest and activity for community-related reasons. That user is/was unstable/unsociable/crazy. I was called neurotic just because I basically said I'd have no interest in CAP if it built for its own metagame. And I'm certain that people have called me worse for my other opinions.
I know billymills said we should avoid airing grievances specifically about Smogon politics. First of all, there's no way I'm taking this to Inside Scoop. Secondly, it's very relevant to the general topic of discrimination. Lastly, what else is there to talk about? This same general topic comes up regularly in Cong in various forms, and the "discussion" is almost exactly the same every time. When people like tehy just never get it no matter how often it's explained to them, what's the point?
tehy
Banned deucer.
lolIt's sad to see senior staff spout the kind of reactionary rhetoric and defensiveness normally attributed to Deck Knight. It's sad, but ultimately not that surprising at this point. It's only surprising that it's so blatant and explicit, and I wonder if it's always been this way or I've just become more aware of it.
Years ago when I was actually active outside of Cong/CAP/CM (not so much CM anymore, I guess), I would always air grievances in public (relatively, anyway, since I guess Inside Scoop isn't "public") despite people insisting to take it to PM. I never fully understood why I would do that; I just couldn't stand the thought of talking to these people in private for more than a short while. Maybe it was due to some fault in my personality; maybe I was just a really socially avoidant person. Perhaps it was a sort of cowardice in that I didn't feel like my complaints were "legitimate" unless I made sure everybody knew about them. Maybe I felt I had so little control over my life outside of the internet, that I wasn't willing to add yet another stressor to that. This was what I believed, despite evidence to the contrary; I've had relatively little issues with talking to auths on PS! from before the Smogon merger, or leaders from other internet communities.
(To be clear, I recognize that airing grievances in public actually does have potentially major negative consequences that should be taken to account.)
I made excuses to myself to justify the Smogon culture and why anyone would condone it. For example, when the issue of paying Smogon staff came up, it seemed pretty damn unfair to me, but I stopped pursuing the issue when Zarel gave an argument against it. I trusted Zarel, it was a strong argument that I had no interest in countering, and, well, it was people like Rising_Dusk, Great Sage and the nuggetbridge people who had made me aware of this issue to begin with. Y'know... crazy people. And, well, when staff turned a blind eye to abuses perpetrated by promising buddies they wanted to promote, well, maybe they just knew something I didn't. They knew better than me. They seemed reasonable enough otherwise, more than a lot of badged users, at least. They were staff for a reason.
Over the years, I've learned more about the limits of human intelligence, especially the pervasive cognitive biases we fall victim to due to how our brains analyze sensory information. I've also, more recently, come to realize the sheer extent of racial, sexual, ableist, etc. discrimination in internet culture, and recognize that it really, really is okay to think that there's something really fucked up about all that. These growths in my perspective have given me a context behind why I felt such an aversion to Smogon's senior staff. It's because they're just so goddamn defensive, I'd even go so far as to say insecure. And it's in full display in this thread.
This isn't to say that all of the beliefs that I described are necessarily wrong. Maybe I really am, to an extent, cowardly / avoidant / unwilling to really engage. I also don't really care much about where Smogon's revenue streams go, and some of the people who left Smogon probably did have issues that couldn't reasonably be dealt with. The issue is more that these explanations are the only permissible ones.
This isn't to say that Smogon senior staff are intentionally cultivating this atmosphere. Intention is NOT the problem. It takes a huge amount of cynicism to suggest that it is. I'm bolding this because it's so important yet so often ignored in these kinds of threads. It's just that the excuses made by senior staff here don't cut it anymore, especially not in the wake of the many controversies regarding race and gender society at large has been forced to confront. Do you people really look at what people talk about in the news (most recently what's been going on with reddit and Twitter) only to come here and be surprised at the kinds of experiences that people are describing here? Are you so surprised as to adopt the same dismissive rhetoric used to downplay and demonize the people adversely affected by those other incidents?
I get that most if not all people involved in this kind of thing want everyone to get along. There are a couple of simple steps that can help achieve that:
1. Holy shit, stop being so defensive. Some of what's being said honestly comes across as borderline blackmail. When people complain, the most immediate response shouldn't be to demand evidence. Evidence is great, of course, but often with this kind of issue, the problems are so ingrained and widespread that it's hard even to recognize any of it as evidence of something that's fucked up, and even if we did, there's so much of it that it would take too long. This thread alone is too daunting to me to start making actual Deck Knight / Fox News comparisons. I'm not saying that you have to accept every accusation as true, but either all these people are in some crazy conspiracy to trash Smogon's reputation for some reason I can't comprehend, or something is really fucked up and even simply acknowledging this without reservation would help a lot.
2. Stop demonizing and blaming people who don't like you / have left Smogon. It's always the same shit whenever someone leaves Smogon, or threatens to leave Smogon, or severely loses interest and activity for community-related reasons. That user is/was unstable/unsociable/crazy. I was called neurotic just because I basically said I'd have no interest in CAP if it built for its own metagame. And I'm certain that people have called me worse for my other opinions.
I know billymills said we should avoid airing grievances specifically about Smogon politics. First of all, there's no way I'm taking this to Inside Scoop. Secondly, it's very relevant to the general topic of discrimination. Lastly, what else is there to talk about? This same general topic comes up regularly in Cong in various forms, and the "discussion" is almost exactly the same every time. When people like tehy just never get it no matter how often it's explained to them, what's the point?
it'd be nice to have any descriptions of actions taken by senior staff that condone things, because I'm legitimately wondering, but yeah, i guess asking for evidence means i'll 'never get it'
if there's so much evidence that it would 'take too long' to go through it all, then there must be some you can easily toss our way?
if it's too ingrained and therefore subtle, at least bring some stuff in and try to dissect it...after all, either it's so subtle that it can't be noticed (in which case, are you sure it exists?), or it's un-subtle enough to be noticed. if an attitude is problematic and demonstrably present in a post, bring in that fucking post. if you can't remember any, bring them in the next time you see them. i can't even recall the last time race was brought up on the forums outside of this and maybe firebot, so...where is all of this?
all i see is 'everyone is super racist, sexist, ableist', as well as some power abuse by senior staff in favor of their friends (i'm sure that's happening, doesn't it always). obviously mod power abuse is very bad, and obviously not much I can do about it
edit:
your suggestions are:
A: don't be defensive
if you disagree with this stuff, how else do you counter it? claims like these can be seriously damaging and can often function without proof, so i can understand why you'd want to be aggressive back. i guess legitimate accusations may or may not have been ignored
B: don't blame / demonize people who leave
i've never done that personally, sounds like a good suggestion ? i don't recall ever seeing it myself but i can believe that happened...what that has to do with *isms* i have no idea, but it's still a good suggestion
finally, i bet a lot of the 'ist' stuff happens on irc, in which case it's hard to find evidence, but what do you expect to be done about it?
Something I've really noticed is that these edgytarian cunts that try saying "racism doesn't exist" are born in majority demographics and raised by parents born in those 50's middle class nuclear families, the ones that saw major change, but were disconnected from its meaning or purpose. Funny enough, I think that's where modern liberalism grew from (and by extent, conservatism [let's face it, ideologically speaking they're two sides of the same coin]), and I've found that it's mostly people born to those liberal families that say the stupidest shit in regards to minority struggle.
where?
again where?
rofl where bruh
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all cookie and i are doing are responding and asking for further clarification / examples??
or is asking for more details / proof suddenly defined as being self defensive and victim blaming and blackmailing ????
if you believe releasing the cathy evidence is some sort of blackmail then you are so far into your rabbithole / axe grinding YOU are channeling your inner Deck Knight (sorry deck, hate to use this dumb ass reference but he did so it's relevant); i was saying i have no problem telling and proving (note a lack of credible and believable proof in this topic of blatant generalizations and hyperbole) that cathy's banishment had nothing to do with transphobia because i felt part of the implication was that it was. if there was no implication to that end, i won't do it. no blackmail. lol.
also, get the fuck over yourself. i'm not saying that with an attack tone btw. but seriously, you dedicated paragraphs to some perception people have about your quitting. no one cares when people leave smogon lmao. there is a JOKE referencing old gimmicks about "impossible to quit" and the like but trust me, no one in senior staff has, beyond the good type of caring in missing a person, given two shits in any negative sense about a person quitting
what are these posts even
i get this is a vent your angry shit topic lmao but please at least give some actual proof as opposed to irresponsible generalizations and references to reading insidescoop or referencing some shit KG did during a previous generation of smogon leadership (that, btw, the victim was consulted with and agreed with the actions taken against kg, who again, is not a member of senior staff anymore)
if we want to talk about every generation of leadership smogon has had and in some odd sense combine that into one "smogon" and make it seem like current smogon is exactly like that, spare me. i have 0 intention of being demonized for the mistakes of my predecessors (assuming they made mistakes, as again i have little proof and the whole argument of acceptable vs. unacceptable jokes hasn't even been breached)
at the very least i accept that smogon in the past may have been <insert negative word>, but i am interested in knowing how the current smogon leadership has been <insert negative word> because i have no problem working on that
that is of course ignoring that we havent even had the discussion about what is an acceptable vs. unacceptable joke or the discussion about what the line is for offhand / irresponsible comments that may or may not (should they?) define an individual
my point here is that there are far too many sweeping deterministic statements being made about a big entity (smogon) based on assumption, all without proof, all mostly generalizations, and apparently responding to such is being "Defensive" and "Reactionary", which is a bigger joke than going to Wisconsin for fun
and btw, your point about not asking for evidence is one of the silliest things i have ever read on the internet. i'm not denying that people feel a certain way. i'm not denying that people are justified for having felt that way. it is also not marginalizing (at all) when I give my opinion that something is hyperbole. if i was dismissing it offhand, sure, i could see why it is marginalizing. i am not doing that. i am still taking my personal time to respond as much as i can. just as you have a right to feel a certain way based on whatever, i have the right to deem that hyperbolic. this isn't being dismissive nor is being defensive; it merely attaching my opinion to what people say. i am, again, not using that feeling that it is hyperbolic to ignore your concerns. i acknowledge that concerns i deem are hyperbolic are still concerns to be addressed seriously.
if anything, i am asking for evidence because then i can use that to directly change the present to reduce these issues in the future. questioning is not marginalizing; not sure why you are assuming that.
when a public topic's tone / diction turns strongly negative, as this topic's has (thank you jumpluff) i, as a leader on this site, am going to ask for actionable stuff to....take action on.
however, what you felt in the past is your business; if you feel bad, i am genuinely sorry for you. but i will continue to question and ask for evidence because the more proof i have, the more i can do in the present
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I /think/ I have an example of "senior staff condoning racism" ; in quotes because I don't think that's what this really is
It's clear that this is a joke, (if it doesn't seem that way read the thread for context, it's short) but I think the issue is that this sort of post can be interpreted as creating a discriminatory atmosphere through the overuse of comedy at their expense. The controversy boils down to whether this sort of atmosphere is actually discriminatory or simply "offensively humorous" (i.e. humor that can be considered offensive). In the former case there's a problem, in the latter cookie is right he says people just need thick skins. And if I'm right about this, then it's a case-by-case basis for each individual, as it depends on how they interpret the atmosphere. And even then, the atmosphere's "intensity" could easily change for each minority group.
Anyway this is just my attempt at trying to reconcile both sides' perspectives here, I have no real opinion either way because this the first I've seen of anyone actually thinking there's a problem, so I've not really payed attention to this sort of thing before. I'll definitely keep my eyes open in the areas of Smogon/PS I hang around. Also, just to be perfectly clear, I am not attempting to cast cookie as intentionally creating the aforesaid atmosphere.
It's clear that this is a joke, (if it doesn't seem that way read the thread for context, it's short) but I think the issue is that this sort of post can be interpreted as creating a discriminatory atmosphere through the overuse of comedy at their expense. The controversy boils down to whether this sort of atmosphere is actually discriminatory or simply "offensively humorous" (i.e. humor that can be considered offensive). In the former case there's a problem, in the latter cookie is right he says people just need thick skins. And if I'm right about this, then it's a case-by-case basis for each individual, as it depends on how they interpret the atmosphere. And even then, the atmosphere's "intensity" could easily change for each minority group.
Anyway this is just my attempt at trying to reconcile both sides' perspectives here, I have no real opinion either way because this the first I've seen of anyone actually thinking there's a problem, so I've not really payed attention to this sort of thing before. I'll definitely keep my eyes open in the areas of Smogon/PS I hang around. Also, just to be perfectly clear, I am not attempting to cast cookie as intentionally creating the aforesaid atmosphere.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
I can assure you that cookie's post is not the kind of content that people are referencing lol
It's fine, I'm mostly just responding to the next angry former contributor who is venting hard in this thread.
I'm mostly aware of what people are referencing. Part of my concern is that there are significant roadblocks to any sort of reasonable course of action (I realize the OP had this thread be a "air your grievances and vent" topic, but lmao, whoever thinks that is acceptable as a public topic is actually crazy, so I'm hoping to give some legitimate reason for this thread to exist). The other problem, besides the ones I outline in the next paragraph, are simply that I have always been of the opinion / philosophy that the past is the past and you move forward asap (if you want actual examples of this, take my support of people I strongly dislike for promotions and my promotions in #stark through #pokemon of active people who i strongly dislike), and that mixed with hazy memory (I've been an active leader for a long time) make it hard for me to take any sort of actionable...action.
Mainly because we haven't had the discussions for what acceptable vs. unacceptable jokes are (reinforcing stereotypes issue, consistent enforceability issue (for example, is someone using "that's gay" a demon but someone fatshaming not? you can say both are bad, but let's be real, almost no one cares about fatshaming and that type of bullying is far more common in a pure numbers game than most other phobias)), where we can say it (for example, is firebot a free for all?), and what is the line we use for some comments used in the past being used to define a person / entity they are a part of (is something 14 year old hollywood said grounds for demonizing him? is something the leadership on smogon in 2012 grounds for demonizing smogon in 2015?).
All three of those are topics we have to discuss before we can even begin to address the grievances mentioned in this topic.
I'm mostly aware of what people are referencing. Part of my concern is that there are significant roadblocks to any sort of reasonable course of action (I realize the OP had this thread be a "air your grievances and vent" topic, but lmao, whoever thinks that is acceptable as a public topic is actually crazy, so I'm hoping to give some legitimate reason for this thread to exist). The other problem, besides the ones I outline in the next paragraph, are simply that I have always been of the opinion / philosophy that the past is the past and you move forward asap (if you want actual examples of this, take my support of people I strongly dislike for promotions and my promotions in #stark through #pokemon of active people who i strongly dislike), and that mixed with hazy memory (I've been an active leader for a long time) make it hard for me to take any sort of actionable...action.
Mainly because we haven't had the discussions for what acceptable vs. unacceptable jokes are (reinforcing stereotypes issue, consistent enforceability issue (for example, is someone using "that's gay" a demon but someone fatshaming not? you can say both are bad, but let's be real, almost no one cares about fatshaming and that type of bullying is far more common in a pure numbers game than most other phobias)), where we can say it (for example, is firebot a free for all?), and what is the line we use for some comments used in the past being used to define a person / entity they are a part of (is something 14 year old hollywood said grounds for demonizing him? is something the leadership on smogon in 2012 grounds for demonizing smogon in 2015?).
All three of those are topics we have to discuss before we can even begin to address the grievances mentioned in this topic.
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i am closing this thread, some notes:
1. I let this thread happen because I believe in free discussion of everything, even if that includes smogon itself - which is something that most staff do not agree with as I am far less invested in the pokemon side of things here. I kept it open because I saw that people were saying people were being harassed and felt that it warranted discussion if the culture here might be to blame in any way. I even created a dialogue because only one side was being voiced properly here, and that's the only way anything constructive will come of this. 'll be fucking damned if this forum is going to be a soapbox for anything, especially criticism of this site.
2. What I have seen is that I have been accused of shit I haven't done, and been lumped into this category of people who apparently traumatise minorities here (and been compared to Deck Knight). I've also been dismissed as disingenuous and given various bullshit excuses for why I'm not given clarification or examples.
what this thread has shown me is that some of the most vocal people aren't interested in a discussion, but just want to moan. I'm not going to tolerate that shit.
1. I let this thread happen because I believe in free discussion of everything, even if that includes smogon itself - which is something that most staff do not agree with as I am far less invested in the pokemon side of things here. I kept it open because I saw that people were saying people were being harassed and felt that it warranted discussion if the culture here might be to blame in any way. I even created a dialogue because only one side was being voiced properly here, and that's the only way anything constructive will come of this. 'll be fucking damned if this forum is going to be a soapbox for anything, especially criticism of this site.
2. What I have seen is that I have been accused of shit I haven't done, and been lumped into this category of people who apparently traumatise minorities here (and been compared to Deck Knight). I've also been dismissed as disingenuous and given various bullshit excuses for why I'm not given clarification or examples.
what this thread has shown me is that some of the most vocal people aren't interested in a discussion, but just want to moan. I'm not going to tolerate that shit.
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