Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[pika pal]

Regarding mega venusuaur, It definitely has the bulk to handle the threats it wants to and is very good blanket check and defensive glue mon, as even offensive variants still maintain great bulk on both defensive spectrums thanks to thick fact. I am neutral on mega venu atm, but I can tell you that most people who want to keep it A is because of longetivity and certain metagame trends. With that said, vensuaur as you know commonly switches into water types (cough cough keldeo), but hax or not scald burns are a reality. In a meta dominated by Stealth rock and spikes and the popularity of sand, venusaur finds itself constantly pressured, as it only gets 8 synthesis, and in sand synthesis doesnt recover as much hp further pressurng it, since it cant carry lefties like ammongus and has to give up momentum with its short lived healing. Not to mention bird spam will always be a problem for it especially with the rise of tornadus T, and metagross certainly makes it hard for venu to do its job.

For manaphy Yea i can see it staying A + but a part of me sees it in S.

I don't think Venusaur's match up vs weather is quite that problematic for offensive variants at least, since Giga Drain keeps him pretty healthy vs the two Prime Sand Members and Rain Staples, enough to last until the Weather wears out in some cases and get Synthesis back up to normal.

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 183-216 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 170-204 (42.1 - 50.6%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 200-238 (55.7 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If Venusaur comes in without eating one EQ, he can Giga Drain during the first to survive the second)
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 93-111 (25.9 - 30.9%) -- 16.1% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage

Still a problem, but Venusaur can function against Sand thanks to having just enough offenses for Giga Drain's healing to pick up the slack, compared to Amoongus. Heck, he can make decent support for Sand since he eats Bulky Waters and Grounds to clear way for Drill.

 

[Lord Xen III]

I don't think Venusaur's match up vs weather is quite that problematic for offensive variants at least, since Giga Drain keeps him pretty healthy vs the two Prime Sand Members and Rain Staples, enough to last until the Weather wears out in some cases and get Synthesis back up to normal.

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 183-216 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 170-204 (42.1 - 50.6%) -- 37.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 200-238 (55.7 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (If Venusaur comes in without eating one EQ, he can Giga Drain during the first to survive the second)
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 93-111 (25.9 - 30.9%) -- 16.1% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage

Still a problem, but Venusaur can function against Sand thanks to having just enough offenses for Giga Drain's healing to pick up the slack, compared to Amoongus. Heck, he can make decent support for Sand since he eats Bulky Waters and Grounds to clear way for Drill.

Yea mega venu Ive seen on some sand teams for that utility but its really counterproductive sometimes. I mean yea it can beat the sand setters 1v1, but still the majority of the time those just come in to set the 8 turns of sand, and pivot out into the grass checks/resists since every sand team needs those to handle breloom and friends, making giga drain fairly unreliable recovery wise. And I've found SD excadrill to be more common place nowadays, which will defeat offensive mega venus.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 402-473 (111.9 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Yea mega venu is generally superior to ammongus generally because of superior bulk and thick fat which allows it to more reliably beat fairy types who carry fire coverage, but it really desires the recovery options ammongus has. Against Rain mega venu definitely has the edge though.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

Ok, again manaphy having good coverage options means it can beat what it wants with its coverage. Yes it will be walled by something, but the fact it can adapt and choose what walls it is a plus. But yes, its true it cant get by everything with one set but that can be said about most wall breakers, even megagross which Sits in S rank. Megagross will be walled by skarm without thunder punch, it will be walled by victini and jirachi without EQ, heatran and ferro without hammer arm, bulky chomp without ice punch, so your argument about 4mss really doesn't matter. The point is there are many other mons in this game who dont have the luxury of choosing their counters since they lack any extensive or viable coverage options. the main flaw with manaphy is that its weak without a boost and doesnt have a powerful dual stab combo, so it relies on tail glow + super effective damage to hit the things that walls its water stab, and like i said a +3 ice beam or energy ball scores many kos on common checks to manaphy. Again underselling manaphy over the other wall breakers is completely hiding the information that gardevoir who shares the same speed tier and boasts powerful nuke moves and good typing, has a harder time getting by common answers, and has lesser bulk on manaphy on the physical side with no recovery options or immuntity to status. SD Zard X is a another nuke and S rank candidate who is really good at breaking stall with his SD set, better immediate power and offensive typing but has some glaring flaws. For one, you cant afford to use outrage until the enemy fairies are gone unless you like giving a free turn, so zard x has to rely on teammates before it can break the targets it wants with outrage. Yes it can spam flare blitz against those fairies, but you are forgetting flare blitz recoil is a thing, the SD set lacks roost unless you forgo tailwind, and that weakness to SR isn't going away any time soon, and its still more susceptible to status in comparison to rain dance manaphy. And further, its not like Zard X beats all its opponents with one set either, its ddance sets lacking EQ will struggle with hippo quagsire bulky mega alt mega slowbro alomola and heatran, and bulky will o wisp is nice as well but the point remains. and Diggers by is good and all, but its weakerto common priority, frailer, boasts a slower speed tier, and while it again has more immediate power and a good dual stab, its priority is only really threatening boosted and quick attack has found more resists on HO so its not gonna be sweeping as much. The only main difference here is that those threats are better against HO, but it sill sugarcoats the fact that manaphy has numerous advantages going up against stall.

• Azumarill still gets walled by tentacruel mega venu and has no way of getting past such countera.

• Well azumarill can run sub pair coverage to beat his counters 2
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 150-177 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 339-399 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• Run max speed to beat uninvested mega venusaur and catch him on the switch.
• I dont need to calc tentacruel because its such a shitty check with that low 65 base defense and no reliable recovery
• Still Look how band 2kos him
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 181-214 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• Mega metagross has no sure fire counters because counting all his variants only defensive mega scisor walls him.

 

[Lord Xen III]

• Well azumarill can run sub pair coverage to beat his counters 2
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 150-177 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 339-399 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• Run max speed to beat uninvested mega venusaur and catch him on the switch.
• I dont need to calc tentacruel because its such a shitty check with that low 65 base defense and no reliable recovery
• Still Look how band 2kos him
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 181-214 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

eh that beats one variant of mega venusuaur, and most run speed. And I was talking about countering the belly drum set for tentacruel.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

eh that beats one variant of mega venusuaur, and most run speed. And I was talking about countering the belly drum set for tentacruel.

Your point was that azumarill cant get around about his counters not about what set could or couldnt so dont get around the subject
""Azumarill still gets walled by tentacruel mega venu and has no way of getting past them.""
The other points that you talked before and i didnt i will talk about it later i am on
the phone ]:

Edit:

Band Azu if jolly can beat offensive mega venusaur (jolly azu reaches 218 speed while offensive mega venusaur runs like 20 evs in speed to outspeed uninvested rotom W reaching 201 in speed) .

252 Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 182-215

 

[Lord Xen III]

Your point was that azumarill cant get around about his counters not about what set could or couldnt so dont get around the subject
""Azumarill still gets walled by tentacruel mega venu and has no way of getting past them.""
The other points that you before and i didnt i will talk about it later i am on
the phone ]:

Um no you are dodging the subject by proposing a move that isn't used for a reason, and that is no where near consistent in getting by mega venu since most run speed, where as manaphy can get by mega venu with psychic in most battle scenarios and is a consistent option if you are luring mega venu. And yes, the topic we were talking about was belly drum azumarill vs tail glow manaphy as boosting wall breakers. And Belly drum azumarill is hard countered by mega venu and tentacruel with haze ( even itemless ammongus which has gained a small amount of popularity). And even with band, azumarill still doesnt get by mega venu, so moot point.

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

• Well azumarill can run sub pair coverage to beat his counters 2
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 150-177 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 339-399 (93.1 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
• Run max speed to beat uninvested mega venusaur and catch him on the switch.
• I dont need to calc tentacruel because its such a shitty check with that low 65 base defense and no reliable recovery
• Still Look how band 2kos him
• 252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 224 HP / 252+ Def Tentacruel: 181-214 (50.7 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
• Mega metagross has no sure because

Just saying, Return is a REALLY bad option n Azumarill imo, especially as that is the BD set, and Play Rough/Aqua Jet are basically necessary. It doesn't show up in ANY of the usage stats, not even 0 lol, where stuff like Brick Break and Protect are listed (that goes for Double-Edge and Return btw). I would much rather run Superpower to bop Ferrothorn and other Steel types or Knock Off for general power, utility, and coverage. Running Return leaves you hardwalled by Ferrothorn, Empoleon, and Skarmory, who can KO via Power Whip/Leech Seed stall or phaze (latter two) respectively. Also, your calc for Knock Off against Tentacruel is incorrect, as on the second turn it will only have 65 BP, giving Band Azumarill about a 0.4% chance to 2HKO lol

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

Um no you are dodging the subject by proposing a move that isn't used for a reason, and that is no where near consistent in getting by mega venu since most run speed, where as manaphy can get by mega venu with psychic in most battle scenarios and is a consistent option if you are luring mega venu. And yes, the topic we were talking about was belly drum azumarill vs tail glow manaphy as boosting wall breakers. And Belly drum azumarill is hard countered by mega venu and tentacruel with haze ( even itemless ammongus which has gained a small amount of popularity). And even with band, azumarill still doesnt get by mega venu, so moot point.

Azumarill can run a jolly nature to beat offensive mega venusaur and with some prior damage azumarill doesnt need to use normal coverage to beat him and if he does he even wins defensive mega venu after SR damage
+6 252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 272-321 (75.7 - 89.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 Atk Huge Power Azumarill Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Mega Venusaur: 309-364 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKo after Stealth Rock

Itemless amoongus is kinda stupid because with no reliable recovery, the power creep and counting passive damage like scald burn or SR means that regenerator its not enough to keep him healthy through the match so it needs all the possilbe recovery that leftovers brings thats the reason we dont see more itemless amoongus and tentacruel its only a check because if you are under 50% of your life and azumarill has set up he will kill tenta with a boosted aqua jet, also its not hard to weaken tentacruel because between taking SR damage, trying to spin and taking iron barbs damage or rough skin damage and azumarills knock off on the switch means it will wear down itself faster than azumaril and easily lose the match up in the short term vs azumarill.
So yes i dont see manaphy tail glow set better than azumarills belly drum set when belly drum has sure less fire counters and it needs less support to destroy defensive cores.

Just saying, Return is a REALLY bad option n Azumarill imo, especially as that is the BD set, and Play Rough/Aqua Jet are basically necessary. It doesn't show up in ANY of the usage stats, not even 0 lol, where stuff like Brick Break and Protect are listed (that goes for Double-Edge and Return btw). I would much rather run Superpower to bop Ferrothorn and other Steel types or Knock Off for general power, utility, and coverage. Running Return leaves you hardwalled by Ferrothorn, Empoleon, and Skarmory, who can KO via Power Whip/Leech Seed stall or phaze (latter two) respectively. Also, your calc for Knock Off against Tentacruel is incorrect, as on the second turn it will only have 65 BP, giving Band Azumarill about a 0.4% chance to 2HKO lol

Thats why i said its sub pair coverage but if your team has enough support to handle steel types but you have problems to handle mega venusaur then use band double edge to lure on that bitch.
Lmao who leaves azumarill in front of tenta.

 

[AM]

Ok another trolly post is getting an infraction no exceptions.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

I want to nominate Tyranitar for A+ rank; first if excadrill is A+ rank how is that his partner in crime is not A+ rank too, its like saying robin its something without batman, what i am saying is that sand offense will always be great and more in this meta with so many things to revenge kill like mega altaria and mega zard x and lets not forget that while hippo is another sand setter it doesnt fit in the term "offense" in sand offense when we compare him to tytar, now when you fit that tyranitar has a shit load of sets like band (so underprecciated not only its a good wall breaker but its also the best talonflame & lati@s counter that also trappers this 2 that offense normally hates), scarf, DD, RP, specially defensive , SR setter, mix offensive, etc; you see that all his attributes and versatility makes him a very good mon enough to be A+ rank, if only he wasn't slow and didn't have that 4x times weakness to fighting but his power, resistances to common types like fire and flying, high bulk and sand compensates his flaws so yeah tyranitar needs to go up with exca to A+ rank.

 

[RedsCharizard]

I want to nominate Tyranitar for A+ rank first if excadrill is A+ rank how is that his partner in crime is not A+ rank too its like saying robin its something without batman what i am saying is that sand offense will always be great and more in this meta with so many things to revenge kill like mega altaria and mega zard x and lets not forget that while hippo is another sand setter it doesnt fit the term "offense" in sand offense when we compare him to tytar, now when you fit that tyranitar has a shit load of sets like band (so underprecciated not only its a good wall breaker but its also the best talonflame & lati@s counter that also trappers this 2 that offense normally hates), scarf, DD, RP, specially defensive , SR setter, mix offensive etc ) you see that all his attributes and versatility makes him a very good poke if only he wasnt slow and didnt have that 4x times weakness weaknes to fighting but power, resistances to common types like fire and flying, high bulk and sand compensates his flaws so yeah tyranitar needs to go up with exca to A+ rank.

First of all, it might help you to put some punctuation in your post.
Secondly, even though he has a lot of sets, the grand question is how well those sets work. Also, Hippowdon is capable of putting up sand as well, and it has gone up in usage lately (given the fact that it was brought up into OU from UU), so T-tar is not Excadrill's only partner. Finally, Excadrill has more sets than just sand rush - Mold Breaker sets also exist.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

First of all, it might help you to put some punctuation in your post.
Secondly, even though he has a lot of sets, the grand question is how well those sets work. Also, Hippowdon is capable of putting up sand as well, and it has gone up in usage lately (given the fact that it was brought up into OU from UU), so T-tar is not Excadrill's only partner. Finally, Excadrill has more sets than just sand rush - Mold Breaker sets also exist.

I want to give replays tomorrow now i am tired to do it, while hippo is a good option on balance teams it doesnt fit the criteria to go on sand offense (less power, no rock STAB and no pursuit support, cant lure on excadrill checks and counters like tyranitar does with fire
blast and ice beam, etc) also lol excadrill mold breaker set sucks it's outclassed by landorus T scarf set and its only usefull for his rapid spin support and even then if you lock yourself that move you are just set up bait to all the tier lmao i just prefer to use starmie or latios for that even if they are pursuit weak mons.

 

[viol and bass]

Mold Breaker Excadrill deserves more credit than you're giving it. First of all, mold breaker sets aren't necessarily choiced. One of the most common sets is a specially defensive one, which is one of the least shitty spinners in the tier for defensive teams. It's quite reliable and not particularly setup fodder. It can poison Mega Sableye by ignoring Magic Bounce or alternatively set rocks which Starmie and Latios cannot do, while checking Lati@s, some fairies (can tank weak fire-type moves from the likes of Clefable) and many electrics.

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

Mold Breaker Excadrill deserves more credit than you're giving it. First of all, mold breaker sets aren't necessarily choiced. One of the most common sets is a specially defensive one, which is one of the least shitty spinners in the tier for defensive teams. It's quite reliable and not particularly setup fodder. It can poison Mega Sableye by ignoring Magic Bounce or alternatively set rocks which Starmie and Latios cannot do, while checking Lati@s, some fairies (can tank weak fire-type moves from the likes of Clefable) and many electrics.

Yeah but it has no reliable recovery and it struggles to beat other SR setters like RHchomp, skarmory, ferro etc just to name a few.

 

[MrAldo]

Wait, did you said that mold breaker sets on excadrill suck and just make the most arbitrary comparison ever??!! What scarf landorus-T has to do with anything about mold breaker excadrill? Please, can some stop using the term "outclassed" in such an arbitrary way... Mold breaker on exca is a legit ability on excadrill in many of its other viable sets. Sand rush isnt excadrill only viable set!! Certainly the most common and most dangerous, thats undeniable, but your statement is absolutely wrong.

Scarf excadrill is a perfectly viable set that with mold breaker with make common switch-ins for the sand rush set to hesitate on switching in (rotom-w for example). SpD set (even though I dont like it much but it works) to toxic magic bouncers and being a decent fairy and electric check. Lum berry swords dance which kind of plow through slower teams and thanks to mold breaker it ignores unaware etc etc. Mold breaker excadrill isnt outclassed at all.

 

[pika pal]

Yeah but it has no reliable recovery and it struggles to beat other SR setters like RHchomp, skarmory, ferro etc just to name a few.

RH Chomp is vulnerable to the Toxic Drill uses to deter Sableye, and the other mons are extremely easy to exploit with a Fire type like Heatran or Zard.

Excadrill is a more reactionary spinner, meant to remove the hazards that have been laid, as opposed to stopping them or removing them IMMEDIATELY. If SpD Excadrill ends up facing a hazard setter, then there shouldn't logically be hazards on the field, meaning a Fire partner is free to enter and smack them on the attempt and let Drill remove them later.

Defensive Lando-T doesn't have any reliable recovery either, yet he's considered a semi-decent answer to Physical attackers. Excadrill still checks what he needs to, has a way to get through opposing utility mons with Mold Breaker Toxic and offers Rapid Spin utility.

Excadrill is ranked above Tyranitar because he's a more self-sufficient mon than the Swift Swimmers are compared to Politoed. Excadrill is just as (arguably more) devastating as a weather sweeper for sand than the Swimmers are, while also being a mon with several viable uses even when not on a Sand team.

The original point of this was you nominating Tyranitar to go up as Excadrill's Sand partner. The discrepancy is that unlike Rain with Politoed, Sand doesn't depend on Tyranitar as its only option for a sand setter. Hippowdon offers the same sand, and for Sand offense, the most important job is setting the weather, anything else coming after. Hippowdon doesn't offer Pursuit, but he's much more resilient thanks to a SR resistance, lack of a 4x weakness, Physical bulk to match T-Tar's (especially considering Hippo can always invest in it), reliable recovery to ensure he can be played and still last until he readies the Excadrill sweep, and the ability to phaze things he doesn't offensively threaten to avoid becoming set up bait and still inflict hazard damage. There are legitimate reasons to consider Hippowdon over Tyranitar for a Sand team.

Tyranitar is not the sole option of Sand like Politoed, so there's less of a logical obligation/necessity to rank him alongside the star attacker of Sand, but rather on each mon's merits. And in that sense, I find Excadrill as an independent Pokemon a bit more troubling than Tyranitar as an independent mon, so it makes sense to keep Tyranitar in A.

 

[Baharoth]

Manaphy is certainly a good mon and kinda deserves its place in A+ but S rank is really pushing it. If we leave the hype train aside for a moment we can see that Manaphy is really dangerous if it has the right coverage moves to plow through the opponents team and gets a boost but there we have the "ifs" already. If you lack Hp fire Ferro walls you, if you lack psychic, venu does and so on. And we arent talking about 2 or 3 mons your missing depending on the coverage set more like 5-6. Yeah you can support it to compensate for that but especially if your using it as your only stall/wallbreaker on your balance team and called it a day after that as someone here suggested earlier because "it invalidates stall" you can quickly find yourself in trouble because the opponents stall team has a counter to it and the rest of your team can't break stall. Yeah that's a problem with every Wallbreaker, but other Wallbreakers like Kyub, Gengar or Diggersby don't have that many counters and aren't so dependent on coverage as they can plow through almost everything with one set alone.

Then there is that nasty boost that you need. Yeah Manaphy has the bulk to set up once or even twice against defensive teams. The problem is the lack of recovery and the potential need to wear down its counters on its own. Yeah you have Scald which can burn and wear down your counters but that means you have to get Manaphy in 3 times on average and you will most likely take damage every time you come. And even then you only got a burn off, the counter isn't dead yet. Wallbreakers with more immediate power have an much easier time doing that due to how hard they hit, especially against checks/counters that lack recovery and can't come in over and over again. Can't use the calc right now but can an unboosted timid Ice beam even 2hko a Latios? What do you do if the opponent has a Latios with recover? You will have a very hard time breaking through that with Manaphy due to how weak it is. And while just setting up once wouldn't be a problem, wearing down its counters, setting up a boost and still have enough life for a sweep is really difficult at times.

And even if you get past these 2 problems, there is still another, the speed. Yeah Manaphy is fast enough to outspeed everything on stall/semistall teams who are usually slow but balanced/more offensive teams will have at least 1 or 2 mons that are faster and can deal with Manaphy even after it got a boost up. Often enough you will take out one mon and then get forced out/killed.

So i think at the end of the day, unless the opponents team is completely unprepared for it, Manaphy can be stopped and dealt with by every playstyle without too much trouble and since it became so common by now most opponents will be prepared, its not like in late XY where RD/TG Manaphy 6-0ed 9 of 10 stall teams without breaking a sweat. Saying that its invalidating Stall/Balance is a massive exaggeration, especially if we talk about the TG + 3 attacks set which is hopelessly walled and beaten by Chansey with Toxic. (Chansey can come in on the first boost, toxic on the second and then just Softboil stall). RD sets are better against stall but have a harder time against balance due to the lack of coverage.

tl.dr Manaphy is good but has to many flaws to be S rank so leave it in A+ for now since its very popular atm. Once the hypetrain stopped it will probably go back to A or even A- because honestly, given the rankings that the different Wallbreakers have atm and how good they each are in doing their job in practice its impossible to justify Manaphy in A+ while Kyub/Digger are in A-/B+ and monsters like Mega Chomp in B. I couldn't even say for certain that Manaphy is overall better than them and its certainly not that much better.

 

[Paraplegic]

I'm rather new, but I've lurked forever(or at least a couple months) so take this post with a grain of salt...

I feel as if Manaphy should be S rank for sure, given how quick it can set up and its relatively amazing match-up vs. balance and stall, and its incredible coverage options to catch some pokes which would usually check it off guard. That isn't to say it's a perfect poke or anything. But in my personal experience, it honestly is far and away one of the best wall breakers in the tier. I feel as if the people on the anti-S side of things are really looking over its capabilities. It may not be the strongest to start, and some things may be more powerful at +2 then Manaphy is at +3, but that isn't what makes Manaphy good. What makes Manaphy such a nice poke is it set up so quickly, gaining +6 in two turns, allowing it to reach its full power a lot quicker. Its this attribute that it possesses that makes it S rank in my eyes.


That isn't to say some of the anti-S arguments haven't made incredibly valid points(as well as a few pro-S arguments making a couple stupid/ irrelevant points imo). Manaphy is stupidly weak by wall breaker standards before it can set up. Other things are even stronger then it at +0 then it is at +3. And Manaphy certainly struggles against offense. But Manaphy has a great match-up vs. 2/3 of the main playstyles(relatively speaking of course). I feel that makes it S rank material.

Thanks for reading, and please don't ride me too hard if I messed up on something, as this is my first time ever posting on this thread.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I'm rather new, but I've lurked forever(or at least a couple months) so take this post with a grain of salt...

I feel as if Manaphy should be S rank for sure, given how quick it can set up and its relatively amazing match-up vs. balance and stall, and its incredible coverage options to catch some pokes which would usually check it off guard. That isn't to say it's a perfect poke or anything. But in my personal experience, it honestly is far and away one of the best wall breakers in the tier. I feel as if the people on the anti-S side of things are really looking over its capabilities. It may not be the strongest to start, and some things may be more powerful at +2 then Manaphy is at +3, but that isn't what makes Manaphy good. What makes Manaphy such a nice poke is it set up so quickly, gaining +6 in two turns, allowing it to reach its full power a lot quicker. Its this attribute that it possesses that makes it S rank in my eyes.


That isn't to say some of the anti-S arguments haven't made incredibly valid points(as well as a few pro-S arguments making a couple stupid/ irrelevant points imo). Manaphy is stupidly weak by wall breaker standards before it can set up. Other things are even stronger then it at +0 then it is at +3. And Manaphy certainly struggles against offense. But Manaphy has a great match-up vs. 2/3 of the main playstyles(relatively speaking of course). I feel that makes it S rank material.

Thanks for reading, and please don't ride me too hard if I messed up on something, as this is my first time ever posting on this thread.

Welcome! Hope you enjoy your stay.
That said, "for sure" certainly does not describe Manaphy's potential rise. I and many others do not believe that Manaphy is worthy of S rank, and if it did end up rising it would be just barely. Its highly mediocre speed tier combined with its serious 4MSS makes it unjust in my opinion. I feel as if both sides of this argument are not merely overlooking its functionality as you claim. Rather we all just put different value on what Manaphy can do. Some feel like its massive coverage and good wallbreaking power justify its rise, while others push the fact that its speed tier is not good enough to outrun the majority of offensive threats and it is borderline worthless until it gets a turn to set up. Also, Manaphy will very rarely get a chance to Tail Glow twice, making the "it reaches its maximum faster" argument a rather mute point. Also, why all of the arguments claim that "Manaphy 6-0s stall and balance", this is rarely the case as a Pokemon functions differently in practice than it does in theory. Against stall Manaphy must choose its poison, being forced to lack coverage for at least one of the opponent's mons that can effectively wall it even at +6. Don't have Psychic? Mega Venusaur stops you. Don't have Ice Beam? A large number of dragons wall you. Don't have HP Fire? Ferrothorn walls you. Also if Unaware Clefable or Quagsire (if Manaphy lacks energy ball) will invalidate Manaphy even if they have no SpD investment. Balance will usually need to sack one mon to Manaphy in order to safely deal with it, yet this applies pressure and checks it nonetheless. I guess this is my current stance on Manaphy's nom to S rank. S rank is a very small sub tier and the requirements to become S should be EXTREMELY strict.

TL;DR, Manaphy is a near perfect mon in theory but it does not hold up as well in practice. It is required to choose which Pokemon walls it on Stall, making it a dice roll if you truly do "6-0 stall". Balance will usually have a check for it, giving the momentum back to the opponent and potentially losing Manaphy. Offense destroys Manaphy; this needs no explanation. Manaphy is good, but it isn't good enough to rise to the absolute pinnacle of the tier in my eyes.

 

[Paraplegic]

Welcome! Hope you enjoy your stay.
That said, "for sure" certainly does not describe Manaphy's potential rise. I and many others do not believe that Manaphy is worthy of S rank, and if it did end up rising it would be just barely. Its highly mediocre speed tier combined with its serious 4MSS makes it unjust in my opinion. I feel as if both sides of this argument are not merely overlooking its functionality as you claim. Rather we all just put different value on what Manaphy can do. Some feel like its massive coverage and good wallbreaking power justify its rise, while others push the fact that its speed tier is not good enough to outrun the majority of offensive threats and it is borderline worthless until it gets a turn to set up. Also, Manaphy will very rarely get a chance to Tail Glow twice, making the "it reaches its maximum faster" argument a rather mute point. Also, why all of the arguments claim that "Manaphy 6-0s stall and balance", this is rarely the case as a Pokemon functions differently in practice than it does in theory. Against stall Manaphy must choose its poison, being forced to lack coverage for at least one of the opponent's mons that can effectively wall it even at +6. Don't have Psychic? Mega Venusaur stops you. Don't have Ice Beam? A large number of dragons wall you. Don't have HP Fire? Ferrothorn walls you. Also if Unaware Clefable or Quagsire (if Manaphy lacks energy ball) will invalidate Manaphy even if they have no SpD investment. Balance will usually need to sack one mon to Manaphy in order to safely deal with it, yet this applies pressure and checks it nonetheless. I guess this is my current stance on Manaphy's nom to S rank. S rank is a very small sub tier and the requirements to become S should be EXTREMELY strict.

TL;DR, Manaphy is a near perfect mon in theory but it does not hold up as well in practice. It is required to choose which Pokemon walls it on Stall, making it a dice roll if you truly do "6-0 stall". Balance will usually have a check for it, giving the momentum back to the opponent and potentially losing Manaphy. Offense destroys Manaphy; this needs no explanation. Manaphy is good, but it isn't good enough to rise to the absolute pinnacle of the tier in my eyes.

The "for sure" part is just how I talk irl, dialect I guess lol. I also never said it "6-0's" stall nor balance. I also said relatively speaking, by which I meant as opposed to some other wall breakers. As you focused the latter half of your argument on that, I consider it a moot point. I agreed in my post that all the reasons(well at least the majority of them) the anti-S side gave were valid. I know exactly where your coming from, and I get that it's relatively weak, and seems to pale in comparison to other wall breakers until it gets a boost, but I feel the fact that it can boost so quickly makes it S rank. Also, against stall and balance, its not a huge stretch to get to +6 with manaphy... Making it not a moot point(p.s. just saying, its moot, not mute, roots from the albanian word for shit :]).

Also, thanks for welcoming me! :D

 

[Assaltwaffle]

The "for sure" part is just how I talk irl, dialect I guess lol. I also never said it "6-0's" stall nor balance. I also said relatively speaking, by which I meant as opposed to some other wall breakers. As you focused the latter half of your argument on that, I consider it a moot point. I agreed in my post that all the reasons(well at least the majority of them) the anti-S side gave were valid. I know exactly where your coming from, and I get that it's relatively weak, and seems to pale in comparison to other wall breakers until it gets a boost, but I feel the fact that it can boost so quickly makes it S rank. Also, against stall and balance, its not a huge stretch to get to +6 with manaphy... Making it not a moot point(p.s. just saying, its moot, not mute, roots from the albanian word for shit :]).

Also, thanks for welcoming me! :D

Oh crap, my brain turned off. I can't believe I wrote "mute". Yeah anyway thanks for giving my post a once-over. I just don't think that it being able to "boost so quickly" is all that impressive while others that take the same number of turns to set up hit harder AND can boost themselves beyond what Manaphy can hope to do. It should just be looked at as this: 1st turn Manaphy has less power; 2nd turn Manaphy is half way to max, yet hits softer; 3rd turn Manaphy is max, yet hits softer than the other wallbreaker at 2/3rds its maximum; any turns after the other wallbreaker can still hit harder and, if given the chance, can make itself become stronger. +3 is rather lack-luster when another wallbreaker at +2 hits harder with merely slightly less coverage/a worse speed tier. The massive jump from Kyurem-B's A- and Manaphy's potential S is just staggering to me; Kyurem-B isn't even one of the wallbreakers that sets up, so it is even better at 1st turn damage output and is already two sub tiers below Manaphy. Mega Garchomp hits harder even without Sand Force and is in B, four sub tiers below.
Manaphy is getting blown out of proportion, and I would like to see someone still pushing for S about a month from now after the hype tried has pulled into the station.

 

[Paraplegic]

Oh crap, my brain turned off. I can't believe I wrote "mute". Yeah anyway thanks for giving my post a once-over. I just don't think that it being able to "boost so quickly" is all that impressive while others that take the same number of turns to set up hit harder AND can boost themselves beyond what Manaphy can hope to do. It should just be looked at as this: 1st turn Manaphy has less power; 2nd turn Manaphy is half way to max, yet hits softer; 3rd turn Manaphy is max, yet hits softer than the other wallbreaker at 2/3rds its maximum; any turns after the other wallbreaker can still hit harder and, if given the chance, can make itself become stronger. +3 is rather lack-luster when another wallbreaker at +2 hits harder with merely slightly less coverage/a worse speed tier. The massive jump from Kyurem-B's A- and Manaphy's potential S is just staggering to me; Kyurem-B isn't even one of the wallbreakers that sets up, so it is even better at 1st turn damage output and is already two sub tiers below Manaphy. Mega Garchomp hits harder even without Sand Force and is in B, four sub tiers below.
Manaphy is getting blown out of proportion, and I would like to see someone still pushing for S about a month from now after the hype tried has pulled into the station.

You know, I haven't thought of it like that. That is rather staggering that things that hit so hard are so far below Manaphy. I've been running calcs for like an hour now, trying to find some justification for Manaphy to S. The thing is, I can't... It's so weak compared to other wall breakers it's kind of ludicrous. I know I seem like a hypocrite, but I'm switching sides to Manaphy for A+, and can diffidently see it going down at some point.

Officially off the so called "hype-train". :3

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

I'm rather new, but I've lurked forever(or at least a couple months) so take this post with a grain of salt...

I feel as if Manaphy should be S rank for sure, given how quick it can set up and its relatively amazing match-up vs. balance and stall, and its incredible coverage options to catch some pokes which would usually check it off guard. That isn't to say it's a perfect poke or anything. But in my personal experience, it honestly is far and away one of the best wall breakers in the tier. I feel as if the people on the anti-S side of things are really looking over its capabilities. It may not be the strongest to start, and some things may be more powerful at +2 then Manaphy is at +3, but that isn't what makes Manaphy good. What makes Manaphy such a nice poke is it set up so quickly, gaining +6 in two turns, allowing it to reach its full power a lot quicker. Its this attribute that it possesses that makes it S rank in my eyes.


That isn't to say some of the anti-S arguments haven't made incredibly valid points(as well as a few pro-S arguments making a couple stupid/ irrelevant points imo). Manaphy is stupidly weak by wall breaker standards before it can set up. Other things are even stronger then it at +0 then it is at +3. And Manaphy certainly struggles against offense. But Manaphy has a great match-up vs. 2/3 of the main playstyles(relatively speaking of course). I feel that makes it S rank material.

Thanks for reading, and please don't ride me too hard if I messed up on something, as this is my first time ever posting on this thread.

I like this post because its very neutral and its not the kind of arguments reflected by the noisy hype train that manapahy brought in, while i understand your 2 principal points why manaphy should go to S Rank (can boost at 6+ very fast and it shits in 2/3 playstyles) but those points can be aplied to every wallbreaker that has a boosting move like SD or NP and the problem i see with manaphy is that manaphy at +6 requires 2 turns to set up and start to destroy things but you need to set up to get kills but then you find that there are more wallbreakers that in those 2 turns can do more than manaphy like inmediatly getting kills and getting or wall breakers like SD diggersby, SD breloom, SD terrakion or NP thundurus etc; that can boost at +4 and they become so powerfull (I risk my account that that this boosting sweepers at +4 outdamage manaphy at +6) and they dont need to find its maximum potencial (at +6) to sweep 2/3 playstyles so those 2 niches that you give to manaphy are really not real niches because they can be applied to most boosting wall breakers in this tier.

 

[Eckleburg]

I'm rather new, but I've lurked forever(or at least a couple months) so take this post with a grain of salt...

I feel as if Manaphy should be S rank for sure, given how quick it can set up and its relatively amazing match-up vs. balance and stall, and its incredible coverage options to catch some pokes which would usually check it off guard. That isn't to say it's a perfect poke or anything. But in my personal experience, it honestly is far and away one of the best wall breakers in the tier. I feel as if the people on the anti-S side of things are really looking over its capabilities. It may not be the strongest to start, and some things may be more powerful at +2 then Manaphy is at +3, but that isn't what makes Manaphy good. What makes Manaphy such a nice poke is it set up so quickly, gaining +6 in two turns, allowing it to reach its full power a lot quicker. Its this attribute that it possesses that makes it S rank in my eyes.


That isn't to say some of the anti-S arguments haven't made incredibly valid points(as well as a few pro-S arguments making a couple stupid/ irrelevant points imo). Manaphy is stupidly weak by wall breaker standards before it can set up. Other things are even stronger then it at +0 then it is at +3. And Manaphy certainly struggles against offense. But Manaphy has a great match-up vs. 2/3 of the main playstyles(relatively speaking of course). I feel that makes it S rank material.

Thanks for reading, and please don't ride me too hard if I messed up on something, as this is my first time ever posting on this thread.

Tbh, against a good player, you won't come to +6. And even if you get two boosts somehow I'm sure you would get two boosts in this match/against this player with any other wallbreaker, too. And if that's the one thing that is in your opinion the strength Manaphy has over other wallbreakers - I don't know.
Yeah, I know. Manaphy has other strengths too (that's why it's A+ after all) and we heard all the reasons a thousand times by now, but I just wanted to say something to this single point.

But nevertheless. Even boosting once isn't that easy (I'll explain what I mean later in this post). And that's the whole point about Manaphy, and the point for me why Manaphy is good A+ material, but not S: It's strong after one boost, and is has the bulk to boost once pretty safe, but that's not it. The thing is, what can Manaphy do after its boost?

Scenario (You with Manaphy against Balanced):
> Opponent has a Heatran and just KO'd one of your Pokémon
> Time for Manaphy, you're setting up TG
Scenario 1 (Offensive Scenario): Heatran switches out, Opponent switches in for example his Wallbreaker Specs Keldeo (even if you predict this, unboosted Energy Ball won't OHKO Keldeo) and -can- Secret Sword you. He don't need to, but he can, that's the point. He has the pressure on his side.
Scenario 2 (Offensive Scenario): Heatran switches out, Opponent switches in for example his Revengekiller Scarf Latios (even if you predict this, unboosted Ice Beam - You know the drill.) and -can- hurt you with Draco Meteor. If he didn't OHKO your Manaphy, you can kill him and he sacks in Latios, sure, but afterwards, you are nearly dead too and only managed to kill one of his Pokémon (and having a fast Pokémon like Latios or Keldeo or whatsoever in a team is so common, really really common. Nearly in every team, even Stall. But I'll say more about this point after the scenarios).
Scenario 3 (Defensive Scenario): Opponent sacks in his Heatran and does Earth Power before Heatran dies, switches in his Unaware Clefable and forces you to switch out. Or you're fishing for the burn and in the meantime Clefable wears you down with Moonblast (don't need much anymore after the Earth Power) or even CM+Soft-Boiled.

Yeah, these scenarios are very standard, cherrypicked and should be familiar with everyone, but that's not the point. The point is... - Their're even two main points.
1. Having one or two fast Pokémon isn't uncommon on Balanced Teams. Every HO and Balanced Team has offensive pressure, HO logically more than Balanced, but it's nevertheless there. Even Stall has most of the time one Pokémon which can act exactly like Keldeo or Latios in the examples. Plus, their're defensive Pokémon which can handle Manaphy too, like Unaware Clefable etc.
2. The lack of power before boosting is really the biggest point for me for Manaphy staying in A+. Manaphy -needs- to set-up, or it will be too weak for everything. And everytime Manaphy tries to set-up you lose momentum. The opponent has one turn more trying to handle your Manaphy, because even if you predict the right switch-in, uninvested you won't do much, and if you boost, Scenario 1,2,3,4,5,6,...can happen, because HO, BO, Balanced, and nowadays even Stall (it's not like they're unprepared) has solid answers to Manaphy, both offensive- and defensive-wise.

Their is a reason why a lot of people prefer hit-and-run wallbreakers nowadays like Specs Raikou/Sylveon/Keldeo/Latios, Banded Azu/Tyrantrum, M-Gardevoir, Charizard-Y, and so on. We use them, because of the immediate pressure against the opponent. You don't lose momentum, you don't give one free turn away, you just make a good amount of damage. And even if you don't, you still wear down the checks and counters.

However, a set-up wallbreaker isn't bad by any means, don't get me wrong. But for example SD Diggersby, SD M-Garchomp, SD Charizard-X, or Calm Mind Mega-Guardevoir: They don't -have- to set-up for their role as a wallbreaker. They -can-, and if they do - Holy moly. Manaphy however has no other choice. Manaphy -needs- to set up to fullfill its role, and this is the one single thing that makes it not S worthy for me. Manaphy has a lot of positive traits. All mentioned a dozen times in the last few pages. But the set-up argument kinda compensates it for me, and that's why it should remain A+ IMO.

EDIT:
Plus, the whole point about Manaphy boosting so fast is kinda unvalid if you're considering that a lot of other wallbreakers are even stronger at +2 than Manaphy is at +3 (as stated in Srn's arguments). So the comparison between Manaphy and other set-up wallbreakers is pretty valid IMO.

 

[Lord Xen III]

You know, I haven't thought of it like that. That is rather staggering that things that hit so hard are so far below Manaphy. I've been running calcs for like an hour now, trying to find some justification for Manaphy to S. The thing is, I can't... It's so weak compared to other wall breakers it's kind of ludicrous. I know I seem like a hypocrite, but I'm switching sides to Manaphy for A+, and can diffidently see it going down at some point.

Officially off the so called "hype-train". :3

I mean if you think off of a few calcs manaphy shouldn't go to S, thats believable because i think lack of immediate power is a strong anti S-argument. But for manaphy to drop is blowing it out of proportion in the other direction, as it completely ignores the several advantages it has over stronger wall breakers like char y mega garchomp , mega heracross and breeloom, which is why those options are lower ranked as it is. Some of those other options either take up a mega slot, are weak to SR, have even lower speed, lack recovery options, are crippled permanently by status, or are walled by several staples on stall no matter what coverage options they have ( like char y vs chansey). Regarding manaphy boosting, all thats relevant is that manaphys' relatively weak power is quickly compensated given its coverage moves against things that resist its water stab. But yes , its weaker than many of the other wall breakers by comparison in this ONE department. In a real game scenario you need some other traits other than great raw power to excel.


Edit: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-role-compendium-v2.3527423/


I mean i think this can shed some light on the manaphy lacking good raw power thing. Notice that in the role compendium , manaphy is listed as a stall breaker, and not as a wall breaker. Wall breakers and stall breakers usually have some traits in common and are interchangeable to a degree. But like i said this ties into what i said earlier about having traits OTHER than strong raw power, and this is why manaphy is still a successful balance breaker while being a great stall breaker despite lacking immediate power. I mean part of the reason SRN and a few of us on the Pro S side got into the debate about whether or not manaphy is just as good as the other wall breakers is pretty much partially because of the fact manaphy doesn't rely on its power to wall break unlike the others do, which will make their raw power difference stand out and make manaphy seem inferior when looking at them in a box. This is of course not to say that manaphy's lack of immediate power isn't a flaw , because it is, but it seriously needs to be put into context correctly