GSC In-Game Tier List

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At that point one is able to catch a Seel, there are a lot of other more viable Water types in your team that are faster and hit harder. You need Whirpool which you get after beating the 7th gym otherwise you can't get access to it.

I think C would be fine and having STAB Ice for the Elite 4 is niche enough to not drop it much lower IMO. (it has a decent speed compared to Lapras)
 
What is Jigglypuff doing in C? It's stats are absolutely horrid (except HP) and you need to make a detour to get a Moon Stone where you get the evolved form with just average stats. Sure, it gets STAB Headbutt, Return and decent coverage with the Elemental Punches but with such poor stats, you won't be getting anywhere soon.
 

Its_A_Random

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On the subject of Jigglypuff, GS Jigglypuff can go straight to E-Tier on the simple account that you cannot get it until after Diglett's Cave in GS and comes at a single-digit level; You are not really going to get use out of that thing at all.

Crystal Jigglypuff on the other hand should not be lower than D-Tier since you can get it as early as Route 34 but idk since I have not used it. Just really posting to say that you can safely boot GS Jigglypuff to E without any issues for fairly obvious reasons hahaha.
 

Xen

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On the subject of Jigglypuff, GS Jigglypuff can go straight to E-Tier on the simple account that you cannot get it until after Diglett's Cave in GS and comes at a single-digit level; You are not really going to get use out of that thing at all.

Crystal Jigglypuff on the other hand should not be lower than D-Tier since you can get it as early as Route 34 but idk since I have not used it. Just really posting to say that you can safely boot GS Jigglypuff to E without any issues for fairly obvious reasons hahaha.
Jigglypuff is available on Route 46 in G/S, which is available the moment you get the Pokedex and balls.

But anyway, I think C is fine for Jigglypuff. Sure its stats are pretty mediocre, but it has a good movepool that can utilize easily-replaceable TMs, and the Moon Stone isn't that bad of a backtrack (assuming your mom doesn't buy one for you beforehand.) It's the closest thing we have to Clefairy in GS.

Edit: Looking over the list, I think Dunsparce should drop from D to E. You either need time/luck to encounter one before Falkner, or a backtrack to New Bark after registering Anthony in order to trigger the swarm. Its stats are bad, and its movepool has nothing noteworthy in it besides Glare and Headbutt (without Serene Grace, might I remind you). Until the Headbutt TM comes along, the only attack move the snake will have is Rage, which is total garbage and makes it complete deadweight against basically everything until Ilex Forest.
 
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It's an earlygame normal-type in a game where normal-types have the strongest neutral coverage moves. I don't think we should punish Dunsparce that hard. Early on, every anti-gym leader strat Totodile pulls off with Rage, Dunsparce pulls off even better. Its early matchups are pretty good, too, but would be even better if they gave it early natural Rollout like they did in the last couple gens. When it gets access to the TM, it's not as useless anymore (because of Scyther obviously).

It's at least a D, maybe even a C.
 

Xen

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It's an earlygame normal-type in a game where normal-types have the strongest neutral coverage moves. I don't think we should punish Dunsparce that hard. Early on, every anti-gym leader strat Totodile pulls off with Rage, Dunsparce pulls off even better. Its early matchups are pretty good, too, but would be even better if they gave it early natural Rollout like they did in the last couple gens. When it gets access to the TM, it's not as useless anymore (because of Scyther obviously).

It's at least a D, maybe even a C.
The problem with Rage is that it requires you to take hits before the damage output gets good, which isn't ideal considering both Falkner and Bugsy have Mud Slap and Fury Cutter respectively. I mean, it works against Falkner as long as Mud Slap doesn't get in the way, but I don't see it being able to beat Scyther by virtue of Rage alone. Maybe I'm just biased against the move, but I don't see how having Rage for about 1/4 of Johto is a good thing, especially on non-threatening early route trainers. Rollout being good against Scyther is also a moot point since the TM doesn't come along until after Bugsy is done and dusted (you need Cut to get past Ilex), and there aren't any other trainers in the game who use Scyther iirc. The move would only come in handy against the occasional birds.

Dunsparce's availability is what hurts it most imo; you either have to put up with a nasty 1% encounter rate if you want it before Falkner, or you have to backtrack from Azalea to New Bark in order to "reliably" find and catch it (and at that point, Dunsparce is pretty underleveled). If being an early game Normal type is what Dunsparce excels at, I'd rather just catch a Rattata or Spearow, since they have more reliable attacks early game and end up being decent in the long run.

If it's D-tier worthy or not is debatable on what others think of Rage's utility early game, I guess (and the fact that it does get Headbutt early, like every other Normal type), but Dunsparce definitely isn't C-tier worthy.
 

Colonel M

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Dunsparce probably would have a hard time hitting C. Encounter rate is kind of hard to tier since Pokemon like Qwilfish could realistically exist in a playthrough... though it is rare.

Dunsparce is okay as a Normal-type early on. It falls off pretty fast but most in E contribute nothing at all.

As for Seel - I might drop it to C, but something to note is you could beat Pryce before beating Chuck. It is high at A though. I will drop it.
 

atsync

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The thing I dislike about swarming Pokemon is that unless you're lucky you are probably going to lose more time trying to finding one of them than you would gain by using them over something else that is easier to find. I think Qwilfish and Remoraid have it particularly bad because it is flat-out impossible to find one before Kanto if they aren't swarming - at least the others have that default 1% chance, and Marill and Yanma can be made easier to encounter with the Repel Trick (Dunsparce could too in theory but I don't think that Repels are obtainable at that point, and Snubbull is the lowest level Pokemon on Route 38 so it doesn't work). Maybe if there is some way to trigger swarms similar to getting evolution stones easily in Crystal...

Dunsparce looks like it would be decent if you can get it quickly. People still refer to stats frequently in this thread when judging stuff in this game, but as far as I'm concerned the minimum requirements for a stat to be considered "good enough" are lower in this game than in later generations and I think Dunsparce passes considering how early it's obtained. Obviously its Speed will be a problem but it should be able to take hits well enough and 70 Attack is sufficient for routes. Its movepool isn't too great for a Normal-type (level-up movepool is awful) but it still gets the usual Normal TMs and it can use Dig to hit everything that resists its STAB.

Yanma would be bottom tier even if it wasn't a swarming Pokemon so not much to say there.

Snubbull (GS) is virtually identical to Teddiursa, just with Sludge Bomb over Dig/Earthquake. Overall it would be a great Pokemon if you could catch it quickly since it learns a ton of moves and will contribute on routes and in several gyms. Speed will be its only drawback but even then it'll likely have level advantage and stat experience after grinding to help it out there. Also note that Snubbull has a flee chance every turn (10% chance) which is especially problematic if it isn't swarming at the time - nothing like spending ages looking for it only for it to run away before you catch it!

Marill (GS) has good bulk but it's slow and its attacking stats aren't the greatest - should be adequate for routes at least. Having access to STAB Surf and Ice Punch gives it some power I guess. Might be usable on its own merits which is what it should be tiered on, although it's hard to justify using over the numerous other Water-types that are superior to it.

Qwilfish is potentially obtained early but doesn't really have the greatest early-game movepool (I guess it has access to Swift and Headbutt for decent power in the meantime?). I think STAB Sludge Bomb from a solid Attack is pretty good though and its Speed is good enough, and of course it can Surf. It has a good match-up against Chuck (ideally you'd have Sludge Bomb already since it can't do too much to Poliwrath otherwise) and can probably contribute in other parts. So it seems like a useful Pokemon...if you can get it early. I really think it needs to be caught ASAP to be useful, but you have no control over whether you have access to it or not.

Remoraid looks amazing on paper in terms of battling, aside from its Speed after evolving. It doesn't learn too much from TM/HMs aside from Surf but its level-up move is fantastic so it doesn't matter. No doubt it can contribute in match-ups. The main issue I have with Remoraid is how late it comes. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain you can't go east of Mahogany Town until after you obtain 7 badges, although you can go there before taking on Team Rocket on Goldenrod. What's the strategy here? You're supposed to just rock up after beating Pryce and just hope that it starts swarming? Remember that Remoraid won't be seeing much action in Johto regardless so if you decide to just continue with the game and wait for the phone call there's a good chance you won't have it before the become champion, and that leaves you with just Kanto, most of which is stupidly easy. And I don't like the idea of just walking around doing nothing until it starts swarming just so you can use it in the few Johto battles it has access to. It'll be under-leveled too, since it's level 20 at best when everything else you're using is easily 30+. As good as Octillery may be, I can hardly call it efficient.

Naming tiers for some of these is tricky but I really think accessibility needs to be taken into account. Normally we're fairly lenient in cases where the Pokemon is kinda hard to obtain but not really (think 5% encounter rate or something) but swarming is a whole other thing all together. The risk with ignoring swarm RNG (especially for Qwilfish/Remoraid) is that you end up ranking them too high and then people planning a run through of the game look at the list, think that Snubbull or whoever is worth using, and then end up wasting time looking for it (or waiting for the swarm that comes too late and then being forced to stop and grind to let it catch up to the rest of the team) when there are several Pokemon ranked below them that would have saved them that time they lost, even if they aren't necessarily as good at battling. I would honestly not put any of them higher than D-tier, with the shittier ones like Yanma going to E-tier. It's a shame because some of them are actually pretty good when there obtained - emphasis on "when", which is the problem.
 
Dunsparce probably would have a hard time hitting C. Encounter rate is kind of hard to tier since Pokemon like Qwilfish could realistically exist in a playthrough... though it is rare.

Dunsparce is okay as a Normal-type early on. It falls off pretty fast but most in E contribute nothing at all.

As for Seel - I might drop it to C, but something to note is you could beat Pryce before beating Chuck. It is high at A though. I will drop it.
The problem with Seel is it does not achieve anything against Chuck since Fighting STAB hurts it and it can't touch Poliwrath at all. Jasmine is also a bad match-up because of Magnemites and Sunny Day Steelix. B sounds about fine since Lapras faces similar issues (although Lapras has better stats and is available much earlier).

No comment on Dunsparce since I've never used it before.
 

Xen

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The thing I dislike about swarming Pokemon is that unless you're lucky you are probably going to lose more time trying to finding one of them than you would gain by using them over something else that is easier to find. I think Qwilfish and Remoraid have it particularly bad because it is flat-out impossible to find one before Kanto if they aren't swarming - at least the others have that default 1% chance, and Marill and Yanma can be made easier to encounter with the Repel Trick (Dunsparce could too in theory but I don't think that Repels are obtainable at that point, and Snubbull is the lowest level Pokemon on Route 38 so it doesn't work). Maybe if there is some way to trigger swarms similar to getting evolution stones easily in Crystal...

Dunsparce looks like it would be decent if you can get it quickly. People still refer to stats frequently in this thread when judging stuff in this game, but as far as I'm concerned the minimum requirements for a stat to be considered "good enough" are lower in this game than in later generations and I think Dunsparce passes considering how early it's obtained. Obviously its Speed will be a problem but it should be able to take hits well enough and 70 Attack is sufficient for routes. Its movepool isn't too great for a Normal-type (level-up movepool is awful) but it still gets the usual Normal TMs and it can use Dig to hit everything that resists its STAB.

Yanma would be bottom tier even if it wasn't a swarming Pokemon so not much to say there.

Snubbull (GS) is virtually identical to Teddiursa, just with Sludge Bomb over Dig/Earthquake. Overall it would be a great Pokemon if you could catch it quickly since it learns a ton of moves and will contribute on routes and in several gyms. Speed will be its only drawback but even then it'll likely have level advantage and stat experience after grinding to help it out there. Also note that Snubbull has a flee chance every turn (10% chance) which is especially problematic if it isn't swarming at the time - nothing like spending ages looking for it only for it to run away before you catch it!

Marill (GS) has good bulk but it's slow and its attacking stats aren't the greatest - should be adequate for routes at least. Having access to STAB Surf and Ice Punch gives it some power I guess. Might be usable on its own merits which is what it should be tiered on, although it's hard to justify using over the numerous other Water-types that are superior to it.

Qwilfish is potentially obtained early but doesn't really have the greatest early-game movepool (I guess it has access to Swift and Headbutt for decent power in the meantime?). I think STAB Sludge Bomb from a solid Attack is pretty good though and its Speed is good enough, and of course it can Surf. It has a good match-up against Chuck (ideally you'd have Sludge Bomb already since it can't do too much to Poliwrath otherwise) and can probably contribute in other parts. So it seems like a useful Pokemon...if you can get it early. I really think it needs to be caught ASAP to be useful, but you have no control over whether you have access to it or not.

Remoraid looks amazing on paper in terms of battling, aside from its Speed after evolving. It doesn't learn too much from TM/HMs aside from Surf but its level-up move is fantastic so it doesn't matter. No doubt it can contribute in match-ups. The main issue I have with Remoraid is how late it comes. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly certain you can't go east of Mahogany Town until after you obtain 7 badges, although you can go there before taking on Team Rocket on Goldenrod. What's the strategy here? You're supposed to just rock up after beating Pryce and just hope that it starts swarming? Remember that Remoraid won't be seeing much action in Johto regardless so if you decide to just continue with the game and wait for the phone call there's a good chance you won't have it before the become champion, and that leaves you with just Kanto, most of which is stupidly easy. And I don't like the idea of just walking around doing nothing until it starts swarming just so you can use it in the few Johto battles it has access to. It'll be under-leveled too, since it's level 20 at best when everything else you're using is easily 30+. As good as Octillery may be, I can hardly call it efficient.

Naming tiers for some of these is tricky but I really think accessibility needs to be taken into account. Normally we're fairly lenient in cases where the Pokemon is kinda hard to obtain but not really (think 5% encounter rate or something) but swarming is a whole other thing all together. The risk with ignoring swarm RNG (especially for Qwilfish/Remoraid) is that you end up ranking them too high and then people planning a run through of the game look at the list, think that Snubbull or whoever is worth using, and then end up wasting time looking for it (or waiting for the swarm that comes too late and then being forced to stop and grind to let it catch up to the rest of the team) when there are several Pokemon ranked below them that would have saved them that time they lost, even if they aren't necessarily as good at battling. I would honestly not put any of them higher than D-tier, with the shittier ones like Yanma going to E-tier. It's a shame because some of them are actually pretty good when there obtained - emphasis on "when", which is the problem.
Well, you can trigger the swarms via DST manipulation, similar to if you were going for the element stones in Crystal, but you have to backtrack to New Bark and hope the RNG gods like you (otherwise it may take a while before the trainer in question activates the swarm). Snubbull, Remoraid, and Marill (if you're willing to wait for Parry) can get away with the backtrack since you'd have Fly to make the trip quick and painless, but the earlier swarm mons will require a backtrack by foot if you want them the moment they're available. Poor Dunsparce got the short end of the stick in that department since Anthony's at Azalea (aka the middle of nowhere), which means you have to walk through Union Cave and the other early routes again at a point in the game where repels aren't readily available.

I'm actually kinda curious how Qwilfish would fare in-game. Seems like it'd be a fairly decent mon to use overall, though Surf from a base 55 SpA sucks.
 

DHR-107

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Naming tiers for some of these is tricky but I really think accessibility needs to be taken into account. Normally we're fairly lenient in cases where the Pokemon is kinda hard to obtain but not really (think 5% encounter rate or something) but swarming is a whole other thing all together. The risk with ignoring swarm RNG (especially for Qwilfish/Remoraid) is that you end up ranking them too high and then people planning a run through of the game look at the list, think that Snubbull or whoever is worth using, and then end up wasting time looking for it (or waiting for the swarm that comes too late and then being forced to stop and grind to let it catch up to the rest of the team) when there are several Pokemon ranked below them that would have saved them that time they lost, even if they aren't necessarily as good at battling. I would honestly not put any of them higher than D-tier, with the shittier ones like Yanma going to E-tier. It's a shame because some of them are actually pretty good when there obtained - emphasis on "when", which is the problem.
In some of the other tier lists we have demoted mons based on how hard they are to obtain. I believe there is reason for it, an efficient play through should be all about getting what you want as soon as its available, not hunting around for a few hours until you happen to luck into finding what you need.

For the 1% mons and Swarmers, I think it would be appropriate to knock them down at least a tier because of this. Annoyingly it also means you can happen across them really early, or it can take ages to do. Having used Dunsparce more recently... I can attest it's pretty terrible, but it might be a little better in Gen 2 than Gen 5... But the fact it could take you an hour to pick up due to its stupid appearance rate is a big waste of time when there are a lot of better options.
 

Tomy

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What is Stantler doing in D? It's available quite early, and it can hurt quite a bit with 95 Atk (and it can learn some cool stuff like Shadow Ball and Earthquake), and it's actually fast with 85 Speed. Its bulk is quite average, but being a Normal-Type in Gen 2 is a blessing.
It should be B-tier at least, because I don't feel its performance is comparable with Miltank and Tauros. But B seems to be accurate for it imo. A shame it doesn't learn more specially oriented moves, because 85 Sp.Atk is solid. Well, at least it can learn Psychic for Ash's Venusaur, I guess...
 

Colonel M

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Stantler, coincidentally enough, was supposed to rise. I accidentally brushed him off. I will fix that.

As for Swarm Pokemon if we rank them partly based on Swarm encounters, then I think a lot of them are safe to drop to D as well. One exception is probably Qwilfish, which is probably good enough to sit at about C.
 
Stantler, coincidentally enough, was supposed to rise. I accidentally brushed him off. I will fix that.

As for Swarm Pokemon if we rank them partly based on Swarm encounters, then I think a lot of them are safe to drop to D as well. One exception is probably Qwilfish, which is probably good enough to sit at about C.
Speaking of pokemon supposed to rise, shouldn't Spearow ascend from B to A? I mean, availability is great, you can get it as soon as you receive your first 5 pokeball in route 46, then his matchups are glorious:

-He gets Peck right off the bat which should be enough to solo the Bellsprout Tower and exp enough doing this to beat Falkner without having to train other pokemon and lose time (like a geodude for rock throw) he is even immune to Mud-Slap. This is a great moment for him as he gets a boost for all his physical moves and an even greater boost to his flying moves thanks to the badge.

-Then he gets Swift at Union Cave and consequently squashes Bugsy like a bug (pun intended) with his recently boosted and stab Peck.

-He can help against Miltank by outspeeding and Mud-Slapping before he dies to Rollout. Anyway after you beat Whitney he gets another massive boost at Goldenrod as he gets Return with a very high happiness since you have it since the beginning plus the Normal moves boost thanks to Plain Badge.

-He can help a little against Morty by Mud-Slapping the Ghastlys and he should have already evolved, plus he has a Shadow Ball immunity

-He yet again helps a lot against Chuck and after this he gets Fly! After this things go a little bit downhill as he risks a lot trying to Mud-Slap Jasmine's Magnemites and can't do a thing against Pryce and maybe he can only try to Return against Clair's Kingdra.

-Finally on Indigo Plateau he can Fly on Will's Exeggutor, Koga's Ariados and Venomoth, all Bruno's pokemon (except Onix) Karen's Vileplum and try to Return on Lance's Charizard and Gyarados.
 

Xen

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Speaking of pokemon supposed to rise, shouldn't Spearow ascend from B to A? I mean, availability is great, you can get it as soon as you receive your first 5 pokeball in route 46, then his matchups are glorious:

-He gets Peck right off the bat which should be enough to solo the Bellsprout Tower and exp enough doing this to beat Falkner without having to train other pokemon and lose time (like a geodude for rock throw) he is even immune to Mud-Slap. This is a great moment for him as he gets a boost for all his physical moves and an even greater boost to his flying moves thanks to the badge.

-Then he gets Swift at Union Cave and consequently squashes Bugsy like a bug (pun intended) with his recently boosted and stab Peck.

-He can help against Miltank by outspeeding and Mud-Slapping before he dies to Rollout. Anyway after you beat Whitney he gets another massive boost at Goldenrod as he gets Return with a very high happiness since you have it since the beginning plus the Normal moves boost thanks to Plain Badge.

-He can help a little against Morty by Mud-Slapping the Ghastlys and he should have already evolved, plus he has a Shadow Ball immunity

-He yet again helps a lot against Chuck and after this he gets Fly! After this things go a little bit downhill as he risks a lot trying to Mud-Slap Jasmine's Magnemites and can't do a thing against Pryce and maybe he can only try to Return against Clair's Kingdra.

-Finally on Indigo Plateau he can Fly on Will's Exeggutor, Koga's Ariados and Venomoth, all Bruno's pokemon (except Onix) Karen's Vileplum and try to Return on Lance's Charizard and Gyarados.
Pretty sure Spearow was debated a while back. It's definitely a good Poke, but it does lose a little bit of its luster late game (from Gym 6 through the league). Return doesn't really become powerful until later in the game (even moreso if you're using KENYA), meaning you'll probably be spamming Swift up until Fly comes along because Peck's base power makes it less than ideal after the first two gyms (iirc neutral STAB Swift hits harder than a super-effective STAB Peck).

Pretty sure it was decided it should stay in B, though it's definitely one of the better B-rank mons.
 
Yeah I argued for Girafarig being C instead of D with a huge playthrough post, OP didn't change that to.

Spearow can easily be B+ (it is B i know) so to speak: Great in the beginning, later Fly Slave and still deal with specific mons like Vileplume in E4 for example (also Drill Peck)
 
Pretty sure Spearow was debated a while back. It's definitely a good Poke, but it does lose a little bit of its luster late game (from Gym 6 through the league). Return doesn't really become powerful until later in the game (even moreso if you're using KENYA), meaning you'll probably be spamming Swift up until Fly comes along because Peck's base power makes it less than ideal after the first two gyms (iirc neutral STAB Swift hits harder than a super-effective STAB Peck).

Pretty sure it was decided it should stay in B, though it's definitely one of the better B-rank mons.
I thought ColonelM was already contemplating raising him from A, and I quote:

I'm a little weary on some of the big powerhouses of Normal-types like Tauros and Miltank dropping from A to B myself. Something to note is that these two hit really fucking hard - and there's also Fearow who I've been contemplating about putting around the A Tier myself (Fearow only really falls off super late game). Friendship Ball Tauros and Miltank practically become quick nukes with access to a plethora of moves that help cover against Pokemon that otherwise trouble Normal-types in general too. I'm also going to say that Gyarados is pretty A Tier as well.

My change would be so:

S

Abra
Totodile

A

Cyndaquil
Geodude
Lapras
Magikarp
Magmar
Mareep
Miltank
Spearow
Tauros
Teddiursa (C)
Wooper

I could question Psyduck myself but really it seems pretty solid since it gets the upper hand with Ice Punch and is actually in a decent Speed bracket. I'll see what others have to say.

Much like Lucchini mentioned I think Sudowoodo in C is kind of gimping it. Sudowoodo does have some nasty downfalls but it actually has a great movepool to compensate (Low Kick, Rock Slide, Dig / Earthquake via TMs). Though it comes later than Geodude and Onix it probably stands a little better in midgame than the two and then becomes mildly worse late-game.

I'll probably raise Stantler to B or C pending on how people want to sway the argument. I didn't really notice he was that more mild in comparison to Tauros and co.

Sounds good.

I think the potential issue is B starts to pile up but I think that's the worst so far. We can discuss others like Slowpoke dropping to C if Psyduck goes to B (and maybe some C mons to D).
This is my mistake - I meant Crystal only - not C tier.

While the access to ThunderPunch is still great there is a point that they're also using it as a coverage move - much like Ampharos is with Fire Punch. Though many of those Pokemon are good with it some of them also sport lackluster Special Attack in comparison (Ursaring at 75, Nidoking at 85). Don't get me wrong - these Pokemon are worthy of A tier and a couple other Water-types will likely get up there as well (just need more of a debate behind them). I mean yeah some of these Pokemon are faster than Ampharos, but comparatively are also weaker in damage as well.

Yes Ampharos is slow and defensively Electric isn't -as- useful as Rock / Ground; however, Ampharos boasts a lot of power behind its dual punches (110 base Special Attack) and still has modestly good durability with chances of outspeeding some Pokemon. Input from others aside from Lucchini / Cloverleaf / myself would help (atsync recommends A too). Seems majority leans A Mareep more than B atm though.

We already know Steelix is good. But Onix without access to trading to evolve it still grows terrible lategame. I mean yeah I guess I could extend its uses up to Jasmine but eventually it gets to the point where it can't really pull its weight anymore with 45 base Attack and needs that evolution to be good (which isn't always available for it per se).

I'm on the fence with Nidos.

They're pretty strong but their evolution does require a hell of a detour as well (something that does have a negative impact in a way). One really big issue is aside from Mud Slap it doesn't even get a good STAB until Earthquake late game - which is just before the Elite 4. The versatile moveset helps as well as a good defensive typing (especially against Team Rocket).

It sucks that Nidoking can't even learn Sludge Bomb. Holy shit what was Gamefreak on during development of this game!?!

For Graveler yes. For Golem - I'd rather use Golem.

I was a bit in debacle on where the Crystal Starmie and Vaporeon would go (was awaiting further input). Golduck is probably A anyway - just awaiting others' input just in case.

Lapras is kind of a shaky one that I'm on-the-fence with A and B. I really want to say it's A but no one has really made an argument to be A either (at least from what I recall off the top of my head). Wooper is slow but defensively has one of the better typings in the game and offensively isn't slouching either. STAB Dig / Surf really helps Quagsire throughout the game until it gets Earthquake. Ice Punch too.

I think eventually A will look something like this:


A
Cyndaquil
Eevee (Vaporeon) (C)
Geodude (Trade)
Lapras
Magikarp
Magmar
Mareep
Miltank
Psyduck
Spearow
Staryu (C)
Tauros
Teddiursa (C)
Wooper
 

Colonel M

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Yeah I thought about Spearow A but I think after a while discussion died.

Think that in this case:

- A Spearow
- E Togepi
- B? Nidos
- B Seel

Any others I missed?
 
Girafarig is too low at D imo. You can get it before Morty. Yes, it will be underlevelled but you have a Super Effective Confusion and is immune to Ghost-type moves. Also, it still have Stomp as a level-up move and can be taught Strength for a decently-powered STAB. It also gets access to stuff like Shadow Ball, Iron Tail and Earthquake for coverage. Not too bad. Psybeam / Psychic and Crunch comes very late though. Probably a B or C.
 

Xen

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Well for what it's worth, I stuck a new battery in my Crystal cart and currently using both Spearow and Nidoran-M on my main team (alongside Cyndaquil, Teddiursa, and Chinchou), so I can pitch in my two cents when I'm through with the game (currently at Mahogany Town for my 7th badge). As of now, I'm sorta leaning more towards B with Nidoran-M. He doesn't contribute much when you first pick him up, useless against Morty, and as others have mentioned, you have to backtrack to Tohjo Falls to get the Moon Stone. The fact that Nidoking doesn't learn either Sludge Bomb and Dig this generation also forces it to rely on the elemental punches for most of the game, which isn't bad per say, but the power drop is a bit noticeable compared to when it had easy access to Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, etc.

On a completely unrelated note, these games have been out 14-15 years, and I just found out that you could actually get Buena's pokegear number in Crystal by maxing out the point card. Guess you learn something new every day. Doesn't appear that there's a reason to have the number, but I got 10 rare candies and several Return TMs by playing with the clock, so I won't complain. :p
 
just wondering...why is Cyndaquil lower than Magmar? They have pretty similar moveset even both are getting T-Punch which is a TM (well, yes, you have to fully evolte Cyndaquil to teach that move). Not to mention, early game before you get to Magmar, you can profit with it on those bug and grass types early game and the bug gym as well.
 
just wondering...why is Cyndaquil lower than Magmar? They have pretty similar moveset even both are getting T-Punch which is a TM (well, yes, you have to fully evolte Cyndaquil to teach that move). Not to mention, early game before you get to Magmar, you can profit with it on those bug and grass types early game and the bug gym as well.
The Quilava stage for Cyndaquil isn't that good as you are stuck with Ember for a long time
 
The fact that Nidoking doesn't learn either Sludge Bomb and Dig this generation also forces it to rely on the elemental punches for most of the game, which isn't bad per say, but the power drop is a bit noticeable compared to when it had easy access to Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, etc.
It still has easy access to Surf! Double Kick is also a fancy move to use early on.
 

Colonel M

I COULD BE BORED!
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Yeah Girafarig can be C. And I'll probably knock the rare mons to about C-D (Qwilfish may be about B).
just wondering...why is Cyndaquil lower than Magmar? They have pretty similar moveset even both are getting T-Punch which is a TM (well, yes, you have to fully evolte Cyndaquil to teach that move). Not to mention, early game before you get to Magmar, you can profit with it on those bug and grass types early game and the bug gym as well.
The Quilava stage for Cyndaquil isn't that good as you are stuck with Ember for a long time
Qwilava sadly doesn't learn Fire Punch and Flame Wheel is a long ways away. Meanwhile Magmar gets Fire Punch, natural Flamethrower much earlier, and access to ThunderPunch as soon as you get it. Sunny Day without needing a TM is cool too since it gives Magmar a boost.
 
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