Gothitelle doesn't happen to have Volt Switch to escape bad matchups and get chip damage on things that it cannot trap or take down. It's not forced to run a scarf. Choice specs and Air Balloon + Magnet rise are also options. Air Balloon + Magnet rise gets rid of Excadrill for you. Magnezone also doesn't get shit all over by Mega Sableye or Mega Diancie.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
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Victini shouldnt rise at all, in fact, it is closer to drop if anything. It had all this problems with its awkward typing with can be really cool to have against many mons like mega meta and mega gardevoir but then you take into account the crippling SR weakness and weakness to all hazards. Is quite funny how many people recall its choiced sets and because of them ask for a raise when this sets are easily the most exploitable sets in its arsenal. Being so prediction reliant with this sets is certainly not a good thing, its LO sets are sincerely better to be honest but not even those deserve a place among the A- ranks. I would advocate for a drop. Also this thing really hates tankchomp and with being on every corner, it shouldnt raise due to choiced sets. Not a bad mon at all but damn, SO overrated.
As much as I like infernape, I feel its defensive set being such as niche to handle a handful of threats (dont get me wrong, handling them so well is actually really cool) but I think this quality, this niche is far too specific to be honest, not even on pair with stuff in B-. This looks more like a C+ mon to be honest, a niche option you will use to overcome a specific weakness to darkspam or mega scizor + bisharp and dont get overwhelmed. Wont even mention its offensive sets cause they are honestly pretty mediocre (even though banded is actually pretty cool ngl). Quite indifferent on this but it is closer to drop to C+ in my eyes.
Sick comparison with magnezone and gothitelle (they are not comparable, wtf). Magnezone doesnt bring up a pursuit weakness, it provides useful resistances, magnezone can grab momentum and actually check stuff (it is also not so aids but thats a discussion for another occassion). And I agree with magnezone going back to A-. Pairs really well with a lot of stuff, like mega altaria. Magneton should rise as well imo since they are so comparable but scarf magneton being more one-dimensional but it outspeeds really relevant stuff so it should rise back to B- imo, but it could stay on the same rank tbh.
I also like how a Feraligatr rise sounds but going directly to B+ is a little too much. B sounds pretty good for a rise. Pretty good mon right now, pairs really well with other water types to overwhelm other water types defensive checks having the movepool to hurt stuff like ferrothorn with superpower and pairing really well with most dragon dancers in general (rip against mega venu tho, too fat)
Cheers!
As much as I like infernape, I feel its defensive set being such as niche to handle a handful of threats (dont get me wrong, handling them so well is actually really cool) but I think this quality, this niche is far too specific to be honest, not even on pair with stuff in B-. This looks more like a C+ mon to be honest, a niche option you will use to overcome a specific weakness to darkspam or mega scizor + bisharp and dont get overwhelmed. Wont even mention its offensive sets cause they are honestly pretty mediocre (even though banded is actually pretty cool ngl). Quite indifferent on this but it is closer to drop to C+ in my eyes.
Sick comparison with magnezone and gothitelle (they are not comparable, wtf). Magnezone doesnt bring up a pursuit weakness, it provides useful resistances, magnezone can grab momentum and actually check stuff (it is also not so aids but thats a discussion for another occassion). And I agree with magnezone going back to A-. Pairs really well with a lot of stuff, like mega altaria. Magneton should rise as well imo since they are so comparable but scarf magneton being more one-dimensional but it outspeeds really relevant stuff so it should rise back to B- imo, but it could stay on the same rank tbh.
I also like how a Feraligatr rise sounds but going directly to B+ is a little too much. B sounds pretty good for a rise. Pretty good mon right now, pairs really well with other water types to overwhelm other water types defensive checks having the movepool to hurt stuff like ferrothorn with superpower and pairing really well with most dragon dancers in general (rip against mega venu tho, too fat)
Cheers!
Celebi, I feel, should go down to B+ or B Rank. This mon just gets demolished and forced out by a ridiculous number of threats to be considered an A- mon. Scizor, Charizard X, Tornadus-T, Weavile, Kyurem-B, Skarmory, and Metagross are just a few examples of mons that can easily take advantage of Celebi in the current metagame. Its a good Keldeo counter, but it doesn't really check / counter much else. I think that these disadvantages are a bit too much to keep Celebi in A-.
Any reason Cresselia is still ranked? With Landorus-I gone, I can't see any reason to use it anymore.
Any reason Cresselia is still ranked? With Landorus-I gone, I can't see any reason to use it anymore.
Cresselia is still a viable TR setter and is no slouch in terms of being a defensive pivot. It isn't as prone to being pursuit trapped compared to other psychic types because of its high defenses and access to moonblast to punish weavile.
The rise of Weavile, Zards, Volcarona, Mega Scizor, Mega Latias and Torn-T is really unkind to Celebi as it struggles to achieve anything meaningful against those threats (except Thunder Wave). On top of that, it still have huge issues against its old foes such as Bisharp, Heatran, Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross and Talonflame, all of which are as good as ever. Furthermore, it has a case of 4MSS since it ideally wants Recover and Baton Pass. Then, you have to pick between Giga Drain, Psychic, Nasty Plot, Thunder Wave, Earth Power and Hidden Power Fire all in 2 slots. Therefore, I feel it should drop down to B+
Depending on sets it quite often is.
Twave + Cm:
Sand Rush SD Exca makes Clef setup fodder and can win against it
Taunt Spikes Skarm just cuts up teams against Clef with its Spikes stacking
Taunt Talon can set up easily and this makes Clef a liability.
Just a few examples off the top of my head.
Other sets are liabilities too like the Flamethrower Moonblast CM set which Zard X in base form can DD to +6 on.
If your team struggles to deal with these things and you don't want then setting up, Clef is a liability because if you have it in, they can set up. Literally everything is a liability in some situations, including Clef.
EDIT:
Liability:
a person or thing whose presence or behaviour is likely to put one at a disadvantage.
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Rofl I don't even know where to begin.
So I can act like an exemplary role model some things discussed that I think. I'll probably or probably not, post reasoning tomorrow in depth.
M-Metagross: Should stay S. It's one of the weaker S mons in a practical sense but it's still a monster and is being discredited based on the usage argument which is dumb and no one is going to take seriously. There's been some ok arguments for it to A+ but they've been ok at best.
Clefable: Not gonna even entertain when people call this thing a liability or should go to A+. It's a chuckle worthy notion at best.
Keldeo: Not feeling S, but it's a monster in A+ and these so called checks are super situational at times. A lot of its checks and counters are theorymonned and in practice based on its functions and options it can become a totally different story. Assuming you're not a moron using it of course.
Reuniclus + Suicune: I'm bumping these together cause I talked with ben a bit about it with a lovely comment by BKC "suicune and reuniclus are both beasts" so obviously it's set in stone. In all seriousness their pros and cons as a whole isn't enough to put one or the other over each other. I think Suicune is realistically better but Reuniclus does have some more tools at its disposable that provides it a bit more diversity to balance out the fact it's consistency can be a bit match up based. Suicune does one thing and the teams Suicune will find itself on normally it's going to be doing that one thing consistently. It's being overlooked as some linear mon when it's a threat that can punish a lot of bad team-building which isn't too hard cause surprise surprise people overlook it and then get set up on.
Dragagle: I mean I guess it could drop for the fact it's a bit hard to justify on a team all the time with all the offensive psychics but it's normally a team specific asset anyways and shines for that specific asset. I don't think it's worse than stuff like Togekiss and the majority of B+ stuff in regards to consistency but I'm also not too strong on this nom so whatever team is cool with I'm fine with.
Serperior: Don't agree with it rising. It actually has some cool utility options and I've been using sets like max HP / max speed with Taunt / Leech Seed as a stallbreaker but after everything is said and done with all of the potential it has it's just an A- mon. Offensive teams sitting at such a high speed tier is a problem for somthing that was sort of insane during it's earlier inception to the tier. This isn't a case for a drop cause it is actually still very nice but A is a big push I don't feel comfortable with.
Rotom-W: I was super adamant about Rotom-W going to A- awhile back and I still stand by it but not a whole lot to explain Henry did a good job at it as with all his other explanations a couple of pages back.
Infernape: Yeah this thing kind of sucks but it's hanging by a thread for its defensive set. This is sort of a poor mans Keldeo at this point but it gets by from having access to recovery and Will-O-Wisp. The Offensive sets I've found to be super overrated. They were cool during the more M-Metagross meta but now I'm just thinking to myself, damn I wish this was a Keldeo, or damn, I wish this was list a mon B- or above. It gets by from the current hype it's been getting so it's w/e for this I guess. It'll end up dropping eventually anyways.
Ferro: Read albas post somewhere few pages back. Ferro is cool and all but it's so overwhelmed for role compression at times for being a check to multiple things at once that eventually wear it down. A well played Ferro is a god but I think it's easier said than done. Idk maybe it's the way I teambuild Henry had some good points though.
Magneton: If Magnezone is going to A- I don't see why Magneton who can actually revenge kill stuff like Weavile should stay where it's at. A rise would be fine.
Scizor: Yeah sure I guess a rise is ok but man the way some of you guys overrate this thing is beyond comprehension. A lot of the problems M-Metagross has as a contact attacker is in a similar vein to Scizor. Granted they're different mons and different ranks but Scizor has to contend with Rocky Helm Chomp, Skarm, Zards, and a lot of stuff that makes M-Scizors bulk a lot more appealing for teams while Scizor cements itself as a specific fairy check to not get busted by the likes of Clefable and DDance M-Altaria.
So I can act like an exemplary role model some things discussed that I think. I'll probably or probably not, post reasoning tomorrow in depth.
M-Metagross: Should stay S. It's one of the weaker S mons in a practical sense but it's still a monster and is being discredited based on the usage argument which is dumb and no one is going to take seriously. There's been some ok arguments for it to A+ but they've been ok at best.
Clefable: Not gonna even entertain when people call this thing a liability or should go to A+. It's a chuckle worthy notion at best.
Keldeo: Not feeling S, but it's a monster in A+ and these so called checks are super situational at times. A lot of its checks and counters are theorymonned and in practice based on its functions and options it can become a totally different story. Assuming you're not a moron using it of course.
Reuniclus + Suicune: I'm bumping these together cause I talked with ben a bit about it with a lovely comment by BKC "suicune and reuniclus are both beasts" so obviously it's set in stone. In all seriousness their pros and cons as a whole isn't enough to put one or the other over each other. I think Suicune is realistically better but Reuniclus does have some more tools at its disposable that provides it a bit more diversity to balance out the fact it's consistency can be a bit match up based. Suicune does one thing and the teams Suicune will find itself on normally it's going to be doing that one thing consistently. It's being overlooked as some linear mon when it's a threat that can punish a lot of bad team-building which isn't too hard cause surprise surprise people overlook it and then get set up on.
Dragagle: I mean I guess it could drop for the fact it's a bit hard to justify on a team all the time with all the offensive psychics but it's normally a team specific asset anyways and shines for that specific asset. I don't think it's worse than stuff like Togekiss and the majority of B+ stuff in regards to consistency but I'm also not too strong on this nom so whatever team is cool with I'm fine with.
Serperior: Don't agree with it rising. It actually has some cool utility options and I've been using sets like max HP / max speed with Taunt / Leech Seed as a stallbreaker but after everything is said and done with all of the potential it has it's just an A- mon. Offensive teams sitting at such a high speed tier is a problem for somthing that was sort of insane during it's earlier inception to the tier. This isn't a case for a drop cause it is actually still very nice but A is a big push I don't feel comfortable with.
Rotom-W: I was super adamant about Rotom-W going to A- awhile back and I still stand by it but not a whole lot to explain Henry did a good job at it as with all his other explanations a couple of pages back.
Infernape: Yeah this thing kind of sucks but it's hanging by a thread for its defensive set. This is sort of a poor mans Keldeo at this point but it gets by from having access to recovery and Will-O-Wisp. The Offensive sets I've found to be super overrated. They were cool during the more M-Metagross meta but now I'm just thinking to myself, damn I wish this was a Keldeo, or damn, I wish this was list a mon B- or above. It gets by from the current hype it's been getting so it's w/e for this I guess. It'll end up dropping eventually anyways.
Ferro: Read albas post somewhere few pages back. Ferro is cool and all but it's so overwhelmed for role compression at times for being a check to multiple things at once that eventually wear it down. A well played Ferro is a god but I think it's easier said than done. Idk maybe it's the way I teambuild Henry had some good points though.
Magneton: If Magnezone is going to A- I don't see why Magneton who can actually revenge kill stuff like Weavile should stay where it's at. A rise would be fine.
Scizor: Yeah sure I guess a rise is ok but man the way some of you guys overrate this thing is beyond comprehension. A lot of the problems M-Metagross has as a contact attacker is in a similar vein to Scizor. Granted they're different mons and different ranks but Scizor has to contend with Rocky Helm Chomp, Skarm, Zards, and a lot of stuff that makes M-Scizors bulk a lot more appealing for teams while Scizor cements itself as a specific fairy check to not get busted by the likes of Clefable and DDance M-Altaria.
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I have a few controversial nominations, but here we go:
to B-
With the advent of several dangerous setup sweepers in CM Clefable, DD Mega Charizard X, DD Mega Altaria, RP Mega Metagross and some uncommon ones like NP Mega Houndoom, SD Mega Pinsir, DD Feraligatr etc., Wobbuffet's role became a little bit better with it being able to trap and remove choice scarfers as well as create setup opportunities against defensive 'mons. It is a viable staple on HO teams. Though Mega Sableye hard counters wobbuffet, being immune to counter and mirror coat and unable to be encored into a status move, it is still nonetheless dangerous for balanced teams.
to B/B+
This may seem odd and out of the blue (pun not intended), but this lump of blue spaghetti seems to be underprepared for in terms of being a physical wall or specially defensive pivot with assault vest. Before you say that it is outclassed by amoonguss, it has access to coverage moves that bops the things that it tends to lure in. An uninvested earthquake cripples heatran, rock slide for Sp. Defensive talonflame who might try to come in on a leaf storm only to be OHKOed.
With the advent of several dangerous setup sweepers in CM Clefable, DD Mega Charizard X, DD Mega Altaria, RP Mega Metagross and some uncommon ones like NP Mega Houndoom, SD Mega Pinsir, DD Feraligatr etc., Wobbuffet's role became a little bit better with it being able to trap and remove choice scarfers as well as create setup opportunities against defensive 'mons. It is a viable staple on HO teams. Though Mega Sableye hard counters wobbuffet, being immune to counter and mirror coat and unable to be encored into a status move, it is still nonetheless dangerous for balanced teams.
to B/B+ This may seem odd and out of the blue (pun not intended), but this lump of blue spaghetti seems to be underprepared for in terms of being a physical wall or specially defensive pivot with assault vest. Before you say that it is outclassed by amoonguss, it has access to coverage moves that bops the things that it tends to lure in. An uninvested earthquake cripples heatran, rock slide for Sp. Defensive talonflame who might try to come in on a leaf storm only to be OHKOed.
I guess after a month or so gone i should get back into the swing of things huh
Im really confused about the nom to drop nape. Ive spoken a lot of times about moving it up because more often than not, I find myself using it for its great versatility. Saying that its only niche is the defensive set is plain wrong when mixape is far more effective than the defensive set can ever hope to be. its one of the more effective wallbreakers in the tier simply by virtue of its great coverage. The coverage also comes in a lot of help for lures, both Slowbro and Altaria can be lured and weaknened to pave the way for something like Megalop or zardx to sweep. Im not gonna bother writing an essay on this shit but C+ is undermining what is in reality a pretty good mon.
In terms of metagross dropping, it is the weakest of the S ranks presently simply because everybody prepares for it. I still think it is way to threatening to be dropped to A+ because of all the reasons everybody has stated, lack of switchins, great coverage, amazing typing, bulk, speed tier, etc.
Keldeo definitely shouldnt rise. The way I see pony is that its great at pressuring certain teams but its honestly so easy to counter right now. The main reason everybody wants it to move up is because of scald burns but if you take a look at the rankings there are at least 5 counters who dont mind the burn much at all, three of which have natural cure/heal bell so thats kind of a moot point. I dont see it on par with the rest of S and i see no other reason to move it up.
Other shit
-Weavile should stay
-Rotom w should drop.
-Base scizor should rise.
-Feraligatr should stay as is
-Serperior should go up (might make a post on this later)
feels good being back
Other shit
-Weavile should stay
-Rotom w should drop.
-Base scizor should rise.
-Feraligatr should stay as is
-Serperior should go up (might make a post on this later)
feels good being back
Welcome back. I don't really have a problem with anything other than the infernape. I mean i used the bulky infernape set once and it was alright but it was still unable to take some hits outside of resisted hits. The mixed set sounds really great on paper with something like grass knot fire stab gunk shot and fighting stab. But i feel like it has the same problem as emboar in a sense being a poor man's keldeo ( and of course emboar is even worse than infernape). As AM and the others posted they dont even consider the mixed set, so it would be helpful if you could do some more showcasing and prove why the mixed set's niche should allow an infernape raise over the defensive set which seems to be the only set under consideration.I guess after a month or so gone i should get back into the swing of things huh
Im really confused about the nom to drop nape. Ive spoken a lot of times about moving it up because more often than not, I find myself using it for its great versatility. Saying that its only niche is the defensive set is plain wrong when mixape is far more effective than the defensive set can ever hope to be. its one of the more effective wallbreakers in the tier simply by virtue of its great coverage. The coverage also comes in a lot of help for lures, both Slowbro and Altaria can be lured and weaknened to pave the way for something like Megalop or zardx to sweep. Im not gonna bother writing an essay on this shit but C+ is undermining what is in reality a pretty good mon.
In terms of metagross dropping, it is the weakest of the S ranks presently simply because everybody prepares for it. I still think it is way to threatening to be dropped to A+ because of all the reasons everybody has stated, lack of switchins, great coverage, amazing typing, bulk, speed tier, etc.
Keldeo definitely shouldnt rise. The way I see pony is that its great at pressuring certain teams but its honestly so easy to counter right now. The main reason everybody wants it to move up is because of scald burns but if you take a look at the rankings there are at least 5 counters who dont mind the burn much at all, three of which have natural cure/heal bell so thats kind of a moot point. I dont see it on par with the rest of S and i see no other reason to move it up.
Other shit
-Weavile should stay
-Rotom w should drop.
-Base scizor should rise.
-Feraligatr should stay as is
-Serperior should go up (might make a post on this later)
feels good being back
Also, while I'm at it, I feel that Mega Aggron should move up to at least B-. It checks just about every single Dragon Dance Mega Altaria set, as it can be EVed to avoid the 2HKO from Fire Blast in addition to taking very little from Mega Altaria's physical attacks.
252+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 69-82 (20 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
It also walls mega Metagross, taking a mere 22-26% from Earthquake:
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 76-91 (22 - 26.4%) -- 15.6% chance to 4HKO
It also shrugs off hammer arms and can 2HKO in retaliation with earthquake.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 18.4% chance to 3HKO.
It's also risky, but it can potentially take on Mega Charizard X and paralyze it, as a +1 Adamant 252 Attack Flare Blitz isn't a guaranteed OHKO. In retaliation, Mega Aggron can Paralyze it so another teammate can better handle it.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 279-328 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It does have some opportunity cost, though, and it does have some flaws, such as not being able to take on special attackers as well and lacking reliable recovery, but it's not so niche that it's on the level of Mega Camerupt, Zygarde, and Scrotom-Heat.
252+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 69-82 (20 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
It also walls mega Metagross, taking a mere 22-26% from Earthquake:
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 76-91 (22 - 26.4%) -- 15.6% chance to 4HKO
It also shrugs off hammer arms and can 2HKO in retaliation with earthquake.
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 102-121 (29.6 - 35.1%) -- 18.4% chance to 3HKO.
It's also risky, but it can potentially take on Mega Charizard X and paralyze it, as a +1 Adamant 252 Attack Flare Blitz isn't a guaranteed OHKO. In retaliation, Mega Aggron can Paralyze it so another teammate can better handle it.
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 279-328 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It does have some opportunity cost, though, and it does have some flaws, such as not being able to take on special attackers as well and lacking reliable recovery, but it's not so niche that it's on the level of Mega Camerupt, Zygarde, and Scrotom-Heat.
i actually disagree with the arguments presented by the smogon elite [henry bkc albacore etc] on the subject of the Pokemon Infernape. Infernape is already, like a puerto rican immigrant family forced to live off of the government, heavily marginalized, at least by the standards of the system we use to define viability rankings. I am a bit biased on the subject but I i believe that my favoritism towards this Pokemon gives me the ability to deliver a unique perspective on Infernape's viability. Ever since using it as a Chimchar in Pokemon Pearl, I knew that this Pokemon had something special. By the time it reached Fantina, Infernape was able to easily 6-0 her with a combination of Flame Wheel and Thunderpunch. Competitively speaking, Infernape emulates this excellence and, despite some small setbacks, performs at an optimal level reminiscent of its dominant rain in DPP/BW OU. In addition to this, Infernape is able to beat WEAVILE, which, as we all know is a heatah fajita Pokemon and the newest crispE innovation to hit the streets. I can personally attest to this as I have laddered to 1600 on Pokemon Showdown and have beat many Weavile's along the way. It truly breaks my heart that Smogon discriminates towards Infernape in this way and it should be raised up to A rank or higher, given the fact that it counters all of the Pokemon in S Rank [Metagross with Flare Blitz, Clefable/Altaria with Gunk Shot and Charizard-X with Defensive Toxic Protect Stalling aka DTPS Nape]. It also HARD COUNTERS Scizor, who has been suggested as an S-Ranker multiple times, coincidence? I think not. I hope when Infernape gets a mega evolution next gen, you will all see the gravity of this mistake.
I agree with a Keldeo/Suicune rise, maybe a drop to A for Gengar due to the rise of Scizor/Weavile usage and the fact that almost every Clefable runs Thunder Wave now, while stall and balance have options like Scarftar/Tornadus-T/Sableye, Scarf Gothitelle to get rid of it.
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Nape does not counter anything in S rank and is not even able to check MMeta unless it's scarfed, it's strapped for moves already so I don't know how you could fit Toxic and Protect in as well. Not sure if trolling with the Fantina stuff, but regardless Nape shouldn't go up, if anything i think it should stay where it is as a fast counter to Scizor, Bisharp and Weavile with access to Willo and Slack Off is pretty damn handy at the moment.
Edit: I did say not sure if trolling :(
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I'm pretty sure he wasn't being serious there.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
plz dont kill me, now that magnezone is in a- I think the worse mon should move down.
Raikou A- --> B+
I hate this mon with a passion, not because it 6-0s me, but because it never does anything (kind of like foretress was to me last gen, it would just die to any special move, especially rain boosted). Here's one scenario that explains why:
This is what it feels like to play raikou. Helpless against one of the best mons in the tier in hippo, and with awful coverage options that will guarantee neutral on most things but super effective on basically nothing. Even if it is super effective, it does minimal damage. Eelektross has a bit more physical bulk, slightly less special bulk and special attack, but id still use it over this because it gets grass knot for grounds and flamethrower for steels. Sure 115 base speed is nice but if you want a fast av user with a pivot move use torn-t. The calm mind set might seem good but honestly, id rather use hone claws kyurem than this. specs hits decently hard but once again youll just click volt switch and cry when they bring in chomp/hippo. zam has higher special attack speed an insane ability better coverage and the ability to bluff a mega. I never use this and I dont see why others do.
Calcs to show how weak this is:
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 342-404 (106.5 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 276-328 (77.3 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
wow full investment vs 0 and you still lost to chomp.
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 90-106 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
the aforementioned calc that does less than regen
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 136-162 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 3.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
idk what this awful hippo spread is but you still do zero
252+ SpA Eelektross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 218-258 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
wow even spdef hippo cant beat eel. plus you are immune to eq and have koff uturn and volt switch. Im actually gonna use eelektross now, it looks like s material next to raikou
now lets do the specs set bc thats also a- in sets rankings
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 78-93 (22.8 - 27.2%) -- 53.3% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 76-90 (22.2 - 26.3%) -- 12% chance to 4HKO
and this is without life orb and zam and still stronger. lo psychic is stronger than specs tbolt btw. both get shadow ball btw this calc was just vs something where both hits are resisted
This thing belongs in uu and certainly not in A-. Or raise serp/volc/mew/politoed/zam, basically everything in A- but celebi bc that's the only thing in A- worse than this
tl;dr even eel is better drop the dog
Raikou A- --> B+
I hate this mon with a passion, not because it 6-0s me, but because it never does anything (kind of like foretress was to me last gen, it would just die to any special move, especially rain boosted). Here's one scenario that explains why:
I'm using hippo balance because it is op. I lead torn he leads raikou. Since raikou has piss poor coverage (only electric ice and shadow ball, the last literally only hitting metagross) I stay in and knock off the raikou. Now because raikou is piss weak it does less than 33% with hp ice. My torn then u-turns out into hippo and it clicked volt switch.
This is what it feels like to play raikou. Helpless against one of the best mons in the tier in hippo, and with awful coverage options that will guarantee neutral on most things but super effective on basically nothing. Even if it is super effective, it does minimal damage. Eelektross has a bit more physical bulk, slightly less special bulk and special attack, but id still use it over this because it gets grass knot for grounds and flamethrower for steels. Sure 115 base speed is nice but if you want a fast av user with a pivot move use torn-t. The calm mind set might seem good but honestly, id rather use hone claws kyurem than this. specs hits decently hard but once again youll just click volt switch and cry when they bring in chomp/hippo. zam has higher special attack speed an insane ability better coverage and the ability to bluff a mega. I never use this and I dont see why others do.
Calcs to show how weak this is:
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 342-404 (106.5 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 276-328 (77.3 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
wow full investment vs 0 and you still lost to chomp.
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 90-106 (27.1 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
the aforementioned calc that does less than regen
252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 136-162 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 3.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
idk what this awful hippo spread is but you still do zero
252+ SpA Eelektross Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 218-258 (51.9 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
wow even spdef hippo cant beat eel. plus you are immune to eq and have koff uturn and volt switch. Im actually gonna use eelektross now, it looks like s material next to raikou
now lets do the specs set bc thats also a- in sets rankings
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 78-93 (22.8 - 27.2%) -- 53.3% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 76-90 (22.2 - 26.3%) -- 12% chance to 4HKO
and this is without life orb and zam and still stronger. lo psychic is stronger than specs tbolt btw. both get shadow ball btw this calc was just vs something where both hits are resisted
This thing belongs in uu and certainly not in A-. Or raise serp/volc/mew/politoed/zam, basically everything in A- but celebi bc that's the only thing in A- worse than this
tl;dr even eel is better drop the dog
Honestly, I don't think your comparisons are really correct. As a staunch user of Raikou I'd argue that your stance is a bit too biased. Raikou isn't something you use to damage things that are at full. Most of the time, Raikou's role is either to a) revenge kill or b) gain momentum. All your above calcs are undeniably correct, but in what world will a Raikou stay in on a Garchomp? Shadow Ball is often used to hit the Lati twins as well which you didn't address. Torn-T and Raikou are very much different in their roles. For one thing, Raikou is actually a very good flyspam check on offence that want to run another mega other than M-Mane. The next thing is that Raikou actually allows you to have a neat Twave absorber with all that shit about Twave Clef running around (seriously guys, Tele started running this when he built his dual scarf team and that was fucking long ago. This isn't some new shit that suddenly popped up so why the crazy hype?) Next, why in the name of Zeus are you using HP Ice on things like Torn-T? Use a better comparison please. I can easily bias and say that Raikou is S Rank material by putting a whole bunch of calcs with Raikou beating the things that it can beat, but that would serve next to zero purpose now wouldn't it?
Huh? So it can beat Keldeo which is also one of the best mons in the tier, does that mean it is instantly good now? This is such a skewered statement. That's like saying "oh Clef can't beat a +2 Occa Berry Scizor, Clef is shit". Let me up the game, Raikou speed allows it to outspeed common fast threats in the tier such as Keldeo, Lati twins and it's strong speed allows it to hit fast and chip off opposing mons without getting too much damage on itself. Alright since you want to compare Zam to Raikou, let me show you the most accurate version of the calcs.
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 101-119 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 11.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Celebi: 99-117 (29 - 34.3%) -- 2.1% chance to 3HKO
idk wtf you're on but this bias against the doge is really insane. keep the fucking dog at where it's fucking at.
oh. So that my post isn't absolute shit, I honestly think Keldeo should rise to S. Keldeo's scarf set is actually good now with Zard X and Weavile on the lose and fishing for random burns on would be counters allow it to chip at them slowly. Weavile's rise also aids to Keldeo's benefit because Weavile actually helps to remove common counters to Keldeo, namely the Lati twins as well as Starmie. Keldeo's Specs set hits hard as balls allowing it to fire off scald which we all know will burn and crit. It's SubCM set isn't the best atm because there isn't a lot of opportunity for it to properly set up but Sub 3 attacks isn't that bad since it allows Keld to dodge status from shit that are slower than it. Overall, I think the meta is really helping Keldeo atm and it should rise.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
ok you are a staunch user of raikou and u call me out for bias thats nice. im biased against choosing this in team building
as for the calc im sorry i meant barely weaker not slightly stronger, it should be obvious when you see that the number is less. but the rest of your points i can refute
"Most of the time, Raikou's role is either to a) revenge kill or b) gain momentum."
I'm arguing that it isnt even good at its role. btw torn-t can revenge kill and gain momentum too, so idk why you say it is a very much different role.
yes shadow ball hits latis, but by hit you must mean physically do damage to because this is the calc from av
252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-176 (49.4 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
that means roost latias can shrug off the damage until you spdef drop
252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 128-152 (40.1 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Torn-t can kill them from this range too
0- Atk Tornadus-T Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 152-180 (50.8 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- attack nature and still more damage! so even if they have different roles torn-t is still better than raikou at its own job
"For one thing, Raikou is actually a very good flyspam check on offence that want to run another mega other than M-Mane."
Except eelektross fills the role better :? even jolteon is as strong as raikou with the same ass coverage (ok 5 spa weaker but faster than torn) so you are very biased in saying that it is a "very good" flyspam check.
"The next thing is that Raikou actually allows you to have a neat Twave absorber with all that shit about Twave Clef running around"
ok this i concede but i dont think about twave because it is a strategy more broken than baton pass and i avoid thinking about it instead of using limber stunfisk just to avoid paras (and speaking of segways, id rather use stunfisk than raikou as well)
"Next, why in the name of Zeus are you using HP Ice on things like Torn-T? Use a better comparison please. I can easily bias and say that Raikou is S Rank material by putting a whole bunch of calcs with Raikou beating the things that it can beat, but that would serve next to zero purpose now wouldn't it?Huh? So it can beat Keldeo which is also one of the best mons in the tier, does that mean it is instantly good now? This is such a skewered statement. That's like saying "oh Clef can't beat a +2 Occa Berry Scizor, Clef is shit". Let me up the game, Raikou speed allows it to outspeed common fast threats in the tier such as Keldeo, Lati twins and it's strong speed allows it to hit fast and chip off opposing mons without getting too much damage on itself."
Wait torn-t can beat all the things mentioned better than raikou can (provided that hurricane hits) and you say they have very different roles? I don't get you. Also Zeus? dont use such an archaic god lol. i spelled out the whole scenario of why you click hp ice vs torn, it was in the hide tag. maybe just a few examples dont prove my point but zam is faster and as strong as the specs set and can switch up moves and is immune to hazards! I dont think you can be a better pivot than one immune to hazards. Eel has better coverage and torn-t fulfills all the roles you posted besides fly spam check.
tl;dr torn-t eel and zam are better, depending on the role you want. The dog is ass drop it to uu
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
I made some comment about it, I'm ok with serp to A but it probably isnt better than mew or volc. Raikou dropping and celebi dropping would be better than the move of serperior up.
"This thing belongs in uu and certainly not in A-. Or raise serp/volc/mew/politoed/zam, basically everything in A- but celebi bc that's the only thing in A- worse than this"
but yeah sry n_n
As for my opinion on the discussion points, neutral on rotom (I never use it so yeah), Serp see above, gatr to b+ sure, its probably as good as dnite, ferro i like, reuniclus and nape should not drop, both are amazing, keld is basically the anti torn, relying on scald burns instead of hoping for hurricane to not miss, galge i also dont use.
I honestly think we should have an A++ rank for things like chomp torn and keldeo that are better than the rest of A+ but have some flaws (although i think chomp belongs in S the team doesnt). The team proved they werent ideologically opposed to creating more ranks when they made E, so I dont see why not if there is a clear distinction between these three and the rest of A+ (that part is opinion)
"This thing belongs in uu and certainly not in A-. Or raise serp/volc/mew/politoed/zam, basically everything in A- but celebi bc that's the only thing in A- worse than this"
but yeah sry n_n
As for my opinion on the discussion points, neutral on rotom (I never use it so yeah), Serp see above, gatr to b+ sure, its probably as good as dnite, ferro i like, reuniclus and nape should not drop, both are amazing, keld is basically the anti torn, relying on scald burns instead of hoping for hurricane to not miss, galge i also dont use.
I honestly think we should have an A++ rank for things like chomp torn and keldeo that are better than the rest of A+ but have some flaws (although i think chomp belongs in S the team doesnt). The team proved they werent ideologically opposed to creating more ranks when they made E, so I dont see why not if there is a clear distinction between these three and the rest of A+ (that part is opinion)
E was made cause team agreed there was a lot of unexplored stuff lower than D. We're not making an A++ -.- or any subdivision of higher ranks as stated for about the 10th + time already.
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.co.nz/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html?m=1
I disagree with Raikou dropping. It's just got a great combination of decent bulk, decent attacking power, and fantastic speed. AV sets have great special bulk and can pivot in and out incredibly easily and quickly while providing damage, no matter how negligible.
However, I do agree that Rotom-W should drop. Being a defensive mon with no reliable recovery and the unreliable Hydro Pump is just terrible. Its Leftovers are often knocked off, and it's also pretty predictable. Sure, it provides momentum, but I don't think that compensates for all its issues.
What a surprise, an electric type without dmg boosting item can't beat the fattest ground type in the tier. So what? Same is true for Mega Manetric as he does jack shit against Hippo as well wanna drop him too? AV Raikou surely lacks a bit in the power department but the combination of speed, coverage, typing and special bulk is really handy at times. He can absorb twaves, switch into other electric types without taking much damage and he can check/counter a number of special attacking monsters in the tier that very few other offensive mons can check like Gengar for example. If your so worried about hippo, pair him with Serperior or something like that and just go for double switches to take advantage of it.
supporting Mega-Aggron to C+ or B-
Comparing this thing to the likes of Froslass or Zygarde is just an insult to Mega-Aggron. Able to check two S-rank mons and can completely stop Mega-Meta, being able to safely switch into anything it can throw at it (Hone Claws set doesn't even stop it), and retaliate with EQ, Thunder Wave to cripple it or Roar it out.
oh boy some calcs:
+1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 99-117 (28.7 - 34%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
It can easily check Mega-Altaria's physical set and can retaliate through Iron Head, Thunder Wave for non Heal Bell variants and Roar.
While the OU rest talk set cannot safely switch into a Fire Blast, it can still be given a spread so it can tank special Altaria variants. (As That Grammar Terrorist stated in his post.)
Clefable has no reliable means of denting Mega-Aggron too, and can easily shrug off Thunder Wave variants of Clefable through Rest Talk sets.
It can also provide a decent check to the Lati twins, resisting both stabs. Unfortunately Mega-Aggron doesn't take a Draco as well as you think.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 127-151 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
With Iron Head dealing a hefty chunk, able to 2HKO Latios. (Dragon Tail does approximately the same damage as Iron Head, so it's not really worth it.)
0 Atk Mega Aggron Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 139-165 (46.4 - 55.1%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO
TL;DR - Mega-Aggron has more niches than you'd think, able to check some of the Meta's biggest threats and comfortably wall Mega-Meta, a mon that virtually has almost no reliable hard counters aside from Mega-Aggron itself.
While there are notable flaws, like the Mega cost, I still think that having something comparable to a brick wall can outweigh such a con.
Comparing this thing to the likes of Froslass or Zygarde is just an insult to Mega-Aggron. Able to check two S-rank mons and can completely stop Mega-Meta, being able to safely switch into anything it can throw at it (Hone Claws set doesn't even stop it), and retaliate with EQ, Thunder Wave to cripple it or Roar it out.
oh boy some calcs:
+1 192+ Atk Mega Altaria Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 99-117 (28.7 - 34%) -- 0.9% chance to 3HKO
It can easily check Mega-Altaria's physical set and can retaliate through Iron Head, Thunder Wave for non Heal Bell variants and Roar.
While the OU rest talk set cannot safely switch into a Fire Blast, it can still be given a spread so it can tank special Altaria variants. (As That Grammar Terrorist stated in his post.)
Clefable has no reliable means of denting Mega-Aggron too, and can easily shrug off Thunder Wave variants of Clefable through Rest Talk sets.
It can also provide a decent check to the Lati twins, resisting both stabs. Unfortunately Mega-Aggron doesn't take a Draco as well as you think.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Mega Aggron: 127-151 (36.9 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
With Iron Head dealing a hefty chunk, able to 2HKO Latios. (Dragon Tail does approximately the same damage as Iron Head, so it's not really worth it.)
0 Atk Mega Aggron Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 139-165 (46.4 - 55.1%) -- 65.6% chance to 2HKO
TL;DR - Mega-Aggron has more niches than you'd think, able to check some of the Meta's biggest threats and comfortably wall Mega-Meta, a mon that virtually has almost no reliable hard counters aside from Mega-Aggron itself.
While there are notable flaws, like the Mega cost, I still think that having something comparable to a brick wall can outweigh such a con.
I just wanna say one small thing about raikou:
I dont really consider it to check flyspam. Because talonflame outspeeds and +2 flare blitz is killing it
+2 252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 361-426 (109.7 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I guess it beats bulky talon but it doesn't actually check the most prominent offensive flying type, which is a strike against it.
anyway supporting gengar down to A, torn-t usage at an all time high rly annoys it, and weavile doesn't help either. it can still sub on clef t-wave and wisp zors but not all at once, it should move down.
not against mega aggron moving up, lando-T, charizards, and sand in general are popular tho it shouldn't be much higher for now.
actually looking at this closely the amount of shit it switches into and phazes/walls/kills is kinda cool
yah raise why not.
I dont really consider it to check flyspam. Because talonflame outspeeds and +2 flare blitz is killing it
+2 252 Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 361-426 (109.7 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I guess it beats bulky talon but it doesn't actually check the most prominent offensive flying type, which is a strike against it.
anyway supporting gengar down to A, torn-t usage at an all time high rly annoys it, and weavile doesn't help either. it can still sub on clef t-wave and wisp zors but not all at once, it should move down.
not against mega aggron moving up, lando-T, charizards, and sand in general are popular tho it shouldn't be much higher for now.
actually looking at this closely the amount of shit it switches into and phazes/walls/kills is kinda cool
altaria
azu
bish
clefable
mega diancie without earth power
dragonite
gyarados
jirachi
lati twins
tyranitar
weavile
azu
bish
clefable
mega diancie without earth power
dragonite
gyarados
jirachi
lati twins
tyranitar
weavile
yah raise why not.
Torn-T isn't even the greatest check to Gengar as it switches in a grand total of 1 time with rocks up and that's not even including Icy Wind. Needs significant Regen recovery to be able to switch in again and this can be mitigated by keeping Stealth Rocks up.
I really just can't see Gengar dropping. It has almost no good switch-ins thanks to unresisted coverage, it has a good speed tier to take advantage of, a great offensive typing and a pretty good utility movepool as well.
I really just can't see Gengar dropping. It has almost no good switch-ins thanks to unresisted coverage, it has a good speed tier to take advantage of, a great offensive typing and a pretty good utility movepool as well.
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