Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Eraxxer]

You (as in the pro-S people) cannot make mentions of eq/thunderpunch/bullet punch, or any other largely irrelevant moves when one of your main points is its amazing movepool to lure its checks, every time you run 1 of these to hit 1 check/counter, you lose to many more, and how hard is it to mega-evolve stuff like megalop and mega-manectric, who have fake out/intimidate (this is assuming you've already mega'd) who can then revenge.
Edit: To make sure this is clear, I mean that these are less for hitting threats, and more for covering arguments mentioned here, ignoring the issues that come with running these.


The issue with metagross' bulk is that it has no form of recovery at all, not even passive leftovers, so those hits are essentially permanent, unless ofc wish support or healing wish. Not to mention not being able to 2HKO its threats with its coverage means its taking some form of damage, which is the issue with the calcs, as max atk lando is a shitty gross switch in when its healthy, and a good revenge killer otherwise when it isn't, and hp fire latios +draco does a lot if not 2HKOing. You need to be mega'd and win the ties.

Why can't somEone run BP? It is just another "coverage" move, this time for Zam, Weavile and other faster, frail things as well as avoiding the apparently terrible chip damage from other priority and risked speed ties.

Also gross is outspeeding hp fire latis anyway.

Gross didn't have lefties when it was nearly banned, so that's not to big a deal. It still plays the same role.

 

[Srn]

I dont like cobalion its literally just hippo fodder z_z
Its hardly a fairy check, mega altaria can set up on it with cotton gaurd its barely a check to that, and it can't do anything back to mega meta except close combat for maybe 40%, hardly a check to that. There are just...better fighting types out there. The only reason to use it is if u wanted a fighting type that can set rocks, and this niche shouldn't take it higher than C+

As far as mmeta goes, i can't deny that offensively, the meta is hampering it with the presence of bulky chomp and mega zor, and i also agree its one of the weaker S ranks, but you guys are forgetting its defensive presence. This thing is your mega pinsir check, your clef check, your mega garde check, your mega alt check, your mega diancie check, your azu check, your lati check, your zam check, your kyu-b check, your serp check, your dragonite check, your tornadus check, your venu check, your terrakion check, your mega aerodactyl check, your mega sceptile check, there's probably some I missed but you get the point. mmeta is not a counter to these, but its beating all of these 1v1, and its amazing that you can condense a check to threats that are so different into a mon that also has one of the strongest offensive presences in the tier.

But to be honest, i can see it dropping. It wants about 8 moveslots to do what it wants (mash, zen, hp fire, ice punch, gknot, eq, bullet punch, thunderpunch). Each move hits something relevant that if it doesn't carry it is otherwise walled/rk'd by. I dont really like it as a pursuit trapper for the reasons soulgazer stated, and for every thing you like to hit you miss something else. And even through rare options like HP fire, a lord counter like gourgeist-super will take everything mmeta can do (no joke it counters with max defense and phantom force to break subs lol)
Condensing sometimes isn't good either, you would like to act as if you have those pokemon covered but in reality your mmeta needs to be at full health to do its job defensively, and considering you gave it so much responsibility its really not gonna happen. That's why Ferrothorn is in A rn, because teambuilders count on it to do too much and end up losing to mons stopped by ferro even though they have a ferro.

Im honestly fine wherever mmeta ends up, it fits into both A+ and S.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Lol, I do love how the meta has adapted to mega metagross, and we like to think of it as "okay". A 'mon centralizes the meta so much to where these Pokemon have come into existence. As Clone pointed out, a lot of these Pokemon did not exist prior to Mega Metagross' suspect, annoying as shit Fat Chomp was little to nowhere, Hippo was FAR less common, SpDef Slowbro, and Slowking, just to name a few. But now they do, and somehow we don't see this as Mega Metagross completely morphing the meta around itself? How can you not see that a vast majority of why the metagame is hippo balance and bulky offense is the Pokemon in question. These things did not exist before right? But after a suspect happened in which 300 players met requirements that were, at the time, quite simple to achieve, voted no ban, and all of the sudden these things were on the rise. Do you honestly not think there is a reason for it? The meta is over prepared for it, and that's because it has to be. These Pokemon didn't rise to popularity because they were the most efficient movesets for them to run, otherwise they would have been ran previously. They rose because they needed to in order to put megagross in its "place" if and when it is ran into. You leave any thing in the meta long enough, and people will find a way to adapt the best they can, it's as simple as that. Naturally, as we have seen there are things that cannot be "adapted" to, but that doesn't make things that can be "adapted" to, exactly "healthy". Now, I'm not going to go into whether this behemoth is healthy or not, but we can all agree I'm sure that the meta has not adapted, but conformed to Mega Metagross' presence. It's not a coincidence these things came on the rise when Mega Metagross was voted to remain OU by, I reiterate, 300 people. This thing is a fucking monster, it has managed to, as I've explained, wrap the meta around its little. . . claw, and get away with it. Any other 'mon does this and we scream wolf, but I guess it's okay with Mega Metagross. . . Who knew.

I've explained why I believe it should remain S, and I'm hoping this further shows why. If not, oh well.

 

[kingmidas]

Lol, I do love how the meta has adapted to mega metagross, and we like to think of it as "okay". A 'mon centralizes the meta so much to where these Pokemon have come into existence. As Clone pointed out, a lot of these Pokemon did not exist prior to Mega Metagross' suspect, annoying as shit Fat Chomp was little to nowhere, Hippo was FAR less common, SpDef Slowbro, and Slowking, just to name a few. But now they do, and somehow we don't see this as Mega Metagross completely morphing the meta around itself? How can you not see that a vast majority of why the metagame is hippo balance and bulky offense is the Pokemon in question. These things did not exist before right? But after a suspect happened in which 300 players met requirements that were, at the time, quite simple to achieve, voted no ban, and all of the sudden these things were on the rise. Do you honestly not think there is a reason for it? The meta is over prepared for it, and that's because it has to be. These Pokemon didn't rise to popularity because they were the most efficient movesets for them to run, otherwise they would have been ran previously. They rose because they needed to in order to put megagross in its "place" if and when it is ran into. You leave any thing in the meta long enough, and people will find a way to adapt the best they can, it's as simple as that. Naturally, as we have seen there are things that cannot be "adapted" to, but that doesn't make things that can be "adapted" to, exactly "healthy". Now, I'm not going to go into whether this behemoth is healthy or not, but we can all agree I'm sure that the meta has not adapted, but conformed to Mega Metagross' presence. It's not a coincidence these things came on the rise when Mega Metagross was voted to remain OU by, I reiterate, 300 people. This thing is a fucking monster, it has managed to, as I've explained, wrap the meta around its little. . . claw, and get away with it. Any other 'mon does this and we scream wolf, but I guess it's okay with Mega Metagross. . . Who knew.

I've explained why I believe it should remain S, and I'm hoping this further shows why. If not, oh well.

You just proved why it should drop, its not what it has done to the metagame, its how it is in the metagame, and if its less effective now, its less effective, and should drop.

 

[aceguy123]

I agree with kingmidas, the argument for Metagross necessitating the counters that makes it less effective in the meta is wonky because then the meta should be revolving around countering the more relevant threats like MAlt and Zard-X but no one is arguing against those guys being hard to counter. The fact is Megagross at this point in the meta is going to be countered by something against a well drafted team. For the other S mons depending on what set they run, it may not be the case. All of the other S mons have entire sets that do entirely different things and can decimate a team prepared for the wrong set. Megagross doesn't have many different sets just different coverage moves mostly and in that way it is more one dimensional than the other S mons. For that reason I'd see it going to A+ rank. The other mons in A+ define the metagame just as much imo like needing to have a Talonflame counter in every team for example.

 

[Firebird101]

You just proved why it should drop, its not what it has done to the metagame, its how it is in the metagame, and if its less effective now, its less effective, and should drop.

I think it is more of the case that you simply cannot afford to build a team that is weak to Mega Metagross.

The reason people bring up it's stats is because it is next to perfection when it comes to them and a lot of it holds true in practice as it does on paper. It has strong attacking power even if mega meta can't usually boost it (unless hone claws or mash hax), amazing bulk for a offensive mon where it will almost never be ohko'd or even easily threaten out and 110 speed is still a fantastic speed. And to get all of this in one package is borderline criminal. It's 4MSS has been brought up but I find that to be not a very strong argument when it has good coverage moves that can nail most of it's checks and it simply has handful of counters that which it's teammates can take care of. Really the only negative aspect of Mega Gross is that it's stab coverage is not strong offensively so yeah it kinda has to choose it coverage moves carefully so I can't say there isn't a 4MSS even if it is not a major one. However with that said I do consider A+ mons to be the cream on the top of the ice cream with the S class the cherry on top so if the metagame has been unfavorable towards Mega Gross then it is a matter of course it should drop a rank as it is currently not the biggest threat in the metagame

However, something I wanna say as a lurker, it kinda bugs me about changing mon's ranks due to metagame trends and I have been seeing this in Keldeo in particular is how easy it takes a mon to switch ranks simply due to metagame trends. Keldeo has been jumping between S and A+ almost throughout the entirety of gen 6 almost purely at the whims of metagame trends and I find it kinda baffling how people can have the patience to debate it's ranking over and over again when Keldeo itself hasn't changed a bit and is a solid mon as ever. I'd much prefer if we'd wait to rank something to see whether it truly deserves a new ranking before shouting: "Everyone are so un/prepared for X, move it to Y!"

 

[Lord Xen III]

the evolution of the metagame to the state that it is in now why metagross isnt nearly as effective as it used to be back when it was suspected. i already (albeit briefly) explained this above but when metagross was suspected, hippo was still uu, tankchomp didnt exist, and fat cores consisting of ferro, sd gliscor, and slowbro were literally everywhere. see early spl for reference. metagross ate these teams up for breakfast because at that point in time it only needed 4 moveslots to cover everything. such is not the case anymore. the rise in usage of the mons i listed above means that metagross is unable to plow through teams anymore. its simply just the progression of the metagame, and the metagme is right now less favorable to metagross.



no, but what is new is its recent rise in usage. its a lot more prominent now than before because recent metagame trends favor it. examples include the rise of weavile and dd mega altaria becoming the number one set (so basically stuff that scizor eats for breakfast). it always existed but now its used more than before.




hippo balance is a general term i use. one of the most standard and effective defensive cores right now consists of hippo + spdef skarm, in which metagross needs both thunder punch AND grass knot in order to break it.

for reference, when i say hippo balance, i mean teams that are defined as balance teams that use hippo. its a catch all term that defines many, many teams. i mention it because grass knot is needed on metagross to break hippo. otherwise, hippo balance teams (usually) automatically beat it bar hax / poor playing.



counter is a good option on skarm. thunder punch is a nice move but metagross rarely carries it, and if skarmory is physically defensive, its barely 2HKOed depending on rolls. regarding whirlwind, dont forget that in an actual game skarmory will be setting up spikes and it will not allow itself to be killed by hammer arm. ive played and seen plenty of games where skarmory stacks spikes, then whirlwinds metagross out before it can get the SE hammer arm hit off, then switch out. skarm then comes in later vs. something else it walls and recovers its health.

rocky helmet is also a viable option that wear metagross down significantly.



a crippled metagross is eons easier to handle than a healthy one. paralyzing metagross and getting up a sub/whittling it down is a win for rachi and loss for gross. eq is cute but rarely run.



i think we're at a misunderstanding here. metagross is a wallbreaker, and i will stand by that fact throughout all my posts. altaria and char x are sweepers. they are all s ranks for the roles they perform. metagross is a less effective wallbreaker than char x/malt are sweepers. therefore, i do not believe having metagross in s rank is fair to the other two s megas because they are overall more effective at their roles. i was not directly comparing them; i simply said that they were able to beat gross after a boost. i probably wasnt as clear as i wanted to be when saying that but thats what i get for typing the whole thing in between doing other stuff.

basically, i believe that malt and char x are better mons than gross, and i do not feel gross has enough redeeming qualities to be compared to them in terms of being s rank. as such i believe a drop is warranted.



yes, i believe s rank is overrating metagross's abilities. therefore i do not believe a+ rank is underrating it. it would simply be one of the better mons in a+. i said that tank chomp and everything else i mentioned are reasons to drop gross. scizor really isnt very comparable to gross for a multitude of reasons. really, the only similarities they share is access to bullet punch and a steel typing. they play completely differently both in practice and in theory.

gross using ice punch means its not carrying grass knot or hammer arm. a fair trade off, but a trade off nonetheless.



they dont have to beat it 1v1. they keep metagross out, and they revenge kill metagross after a teammate has weakened it down to about 70%. keep in mind that they all 2HKO metagross with knock off / shadow ball / heat wave respectively, and they all outspeed metagross. torn t can even switch in if its healthy enough.



not only that, but the spikes it lays down means metagross is being punished every time it switches in. this residual damage on top of these fast attackers with super effective moves is why metagross is less effective against offense. both zard x and malt have roost, which lets them offset that damage, and they also have ways of sweeping offense with dd. metagross does not.



clefable spams t wave whenever its given a free turn. if gross gets hit on the switch with it, then its crippled. sure, it has a free turn, but clefable is always paired with something that can take on metagross, such as hippo. hippo also outspeeds a paralyzed metagross and wins 1v1, grass knot or not.

[All you have proven is that gross possibly doesn't deserve a ban, but this does not equal a drop from S rank.

i guess this is a start but i honestly feel a lot of people still resent gross because they were vehemently pro ban on it and it barely escaped, but there are also people who have gotten over this and realize that metagross simply isnt as effective anymore, and that its no longer the go-to mega because of recent metagame trends. all i can say is that ive presented my case and urge people to look at this discussion with an open mind, rather than dwell on the past and how it used to perform.

Yea , and ill get into this when I address of Moose and Men's comment. See the problem is mega scizor was something that has always existed. ITs rise in usage is attributed to the fact it can check all the current S rank mons exlcuding char x in one slot. But its not like it wasnt there, it was an option when gross was suspected and its still an option now. The problem is here that clearly usage has an effect on viability, but it shouldnt cloud the fact that these options for megagross were always there. The metagame has adapted to gross and as such u have seen its common checks and counters on more teams so u dont lose to it as easily, and thats not even counting the fact it can still lure all of them in. Counter is an option on skarm but the point is it only counters megagross (no pun intended) if and only if you are running it. As i said in previous posts, counter skarm has existed forever. but megagross's presence demands it among other things otherwise your balance core will be destroyed by the standard hammer arm + grass knot set. A crippled megagross is easier to handle obviously, that comes into counter play and thats a valid point. But its not a fair comparison because I can easily flip that example against you when we compare zard x to thundy. According to the OU checks compendium, Zard X is a GSI (Good switch in to thundy). However in practice it doesnt really like switching into thundy nor setting up on it because similar to gross vs clef u risk being t waved. so should zard X be dropped back to A+ because something it otherwise counters cripples it and now a latios or something can come in and revenge it? I know that you believe it is the combination of unfriendly meta traits but its already been established that megagross's prowess and positives were good enough for it to be S rank and suspected in the first place. So its easy to apply these negatives you give to gross to other S ranks.

MEgagross's S rank set is its wall breaking set atm as it covers a vast majority of the metagame as it is. But i dont understand how megagross is weaker wall breaker considering all of its checks and counters are situational. It has a similair effect to landorus I where u need like 2 checks to it just so u can scout out what coverage move it has which is proven by that hippwdown + skarmory core u mentioned. Mind you the main difference between landorus I and metagross that it is in landorus favor is that it had 3 moveslots to work with where as megagross has 2 slots occupied by its dual stab which is redundant in what walls it ( pretty much every steel type in existence) So gross to a degree is more coverage dependent and prediction reliant, which i do think is a good anti ban argument rather than an actual Drop from S argument. Scizor is compare able in the sense that its dual stab is also walled by every steel type in existence, and it even shares some counters and checks to gross such as skarmory and garchomp . But generally it only has knock off and super power, superpower hits heatran and thats about it while knock off annoys talon flame but its not that crippling of an effect. I still lives scizor as a free switch in for bulky chomp just as much as gross does, except when u consider the fact that megagross can at least lure in more of these supposed counters like ice punchfor gross. IT has 4mss in doing so, but putting mega scizor and gross in the same rank is literally saying that a mon who has nice lure moves although cant fit them all on the same set is on the same level as a mon who has little to no lure move in comparison. Scizor users just dont get that same pleasure to at least say oh at least my opponent needs to think twice about switching in his rocky helmet chomp into it. They have that fear when they see gross as they attempt to scout its moves.

Then regarding the weavile offense, yea you realize they dont beat gross 1v1 and that they can play around gross and take advantage of its lower speed. You dont realize however that the counter play they can do such as doing chip damage, switching out, then revenge killing it with a tornadus heat wave is completely ignoring that metagross has teammates who can also play the game of counter play against that ? I mean what you said works in theory , but only under the theory that megagross could not switch out of that 1v1 situation which it can since none of those mons u mentioned have shadow tag or magnet pull.


Yea gross doesnt have recovery and such and yea its easy to wear down in that sense. But at the same time you realize that its resistant to SR while char x is weak to both spikes and SR so i dont get that comparison fully other than that yea char x has to give up turns roosting where as megagross is more on a timer. But last i check having reliable recovery was never an S rank requirement so i dont know where you are going with this considering gross's other positive traits it has over zard where comparable. You say char x and mega alt can sweep offense while gross cannot and this is not true gross learns rock polish. Yes it sacrifices some wall breaking to run it , but its not much different in how dd dance zard x sacrifices EQ to run roost and now it cant hit heatran, and also consider that since the ddance set doesnt run outrage it is walled by things such as quagsire megaslowbro and hippjwdown can take it down as well. The only difference here is that zard is less coverage dependent because of its great stabs but what about the flare blitz recoil , rocks , spikes, and lower immediate speed?

Lastly

Lol, I do love how the meta has adapted to mega metagross, and we like to think of it as "okay". A 'mon centralizes the meta so much to where these Pokemon have come into existence. As Clone pointed out, a lot of these Pokemon did not exist prior to Mega Metagross' suspect, annoying as shit Fat Chomp was little to nowhere, Hippo was FAR less common, SpDef Slowbro, and Slowking, just to name a few. But now they do, and somehow we don't see this as Mega Metagross completely morphing the meta around itself? How can you not see that a vast majority of why the metagame is hippo balance and bulky offense is the Pokemon in question. These things did not exist before right? But after a suspect happened in which 300 players met requirements that were, at the time, quite simple to achieve, voted no ban, and all of the sudden these things were on the rise. Do you honestly not think there is a reason for it? The meta is over prepared for it, and that's because it has to be. These Pokemon didn't rise to popularity because they were the most efficient movesets for them to run, otherwise they would have been ran previously. They rose because they needed to in order to put megagross in its "place" if and when it is ran into. You leave any thing in the meta long enough, and people will find a way to adapt the best they can, it's as simple as that. Naturally, as we have seen there are things that cannot be "adapted" to, but that doesn't make things that can be "adapted" to, exactly "healthy". Now, I'm not going to go into whether this behemoth is healthy or not, but we can all agree I'm sure that the meta has not adapted, but conformed to Mega Metagross' presence. It's not a coincidence these things came on the rise when Mega Metagross was voted to remain OU by, I reiterate, 300 people. This thing is a fucking monster, it has managed to, as I've explained, wrap the meta around its little. . . claw, and get away with it. Any other 'mon does this and we scream wolf, but I guess it's okay with Mega Metagross. . . Who knew.

I've explained why I believe it should remain S, and I'm hoping this further shows why. If not, oh well.

You just proved why it should drop, its not what it has done to the metagame, its how it is in the metagame, and if its less effective now, its less effective, and should drop.

The only problem with of Moose and Mens post is that it kind of fulfilled the stereotype u stated Clone where u believe that there is salt regarding gross surviving the banlist thats clouding people from seeing its purported lost effectiveness . But he has a point , while exaggerated, that megagross has forced some adaptions to it and gross still has the tools to adapt back. Mind you the exaggeration by moose and men is just that hippo isnt being used JUST to check gross it checks thundy zard x and other top threats and it isn't like where 3 rocky helmet users were needed JUST to beat mega kanga that had no other use in OU. Slowking is also a cool zard y counter and fat chomp handles not only gross, but lopunny scizor bisharp... lots of physical attackers in one slot. Still, OF Moose and Mens still has a valid point that megagross still has forced things like 24 ev slowbro spdef to come on the rise and counter being a staple on skarm just so their balance cores aren't obliterated. But i just wanna make the point that under Kingmidas logic we could unban mega kanga and just have everyone run 3 rocky helmet users on every team and now mega kanga is "less effective" and therefore loses viability, thats not the proper way to think about it. IF the meta is overprepared for a threat it doesn't necessarily mean its lost effectiveness it actually means that the metagame has been made to either bow down to a threat or run sufficient answers so your team can beat it which is the case with many of the previous things banned from OU. Now dont get me wrong megagross isnt nearly as bad as previous suspects and it has lots of counter play that dont require ridiculous adaptions as u pointed and it still a few tough counters to it. So again on that merit i really see your post as anti ban arguments rather than anti S arguments. Megagross i think being over prepared for isn't enough for it to drop consider that it has the ability to lure in these things that are prepped for it while also living a bisharp sucker punch and destroying a lot of the meta with just its stabs after SR off 110 speed and base 150 defense. Its just a matter of whether u think megagross doesnt limit team building to the point where it doesn't deserve to remain S and should drop to A+. I personally think it does limit teambuildiing enough for S rank while i admit it is slightly below mega altaria and char x overall but still not by a long shot considering the points i made earlier in their comparisons.[/quote][/quote]

 

[Flamer]

Im just going to point out that the argument "The metagame had to shift to accomodate it" is not a reason for something to stay in S. Take Pinsir in XY for example. Birdspam was a really common playstyle at the time and the head of this team was pinsir. Initially, the playstyle was really successful and unprepared for, meaning Pinsir rose to S. Eventually, people wised up to the team and began packing more dedicated birdspam counters, decreasing the viability of said teams. This in turn meant pinsir lost viability since every team was completely prepared for it and it was a lot harder to sweep, hence it dropped. Later on, when people stopped preparing for birdspam pinsir became way more effective, even if it didnt regain its former ranking.

What a lot of you are taking the viability rankings for is the potential ability of mons to be effective, not how effective they are in the current meta. While Im still not quite sure about whether this applies to metagross or not, its impossible to deny that the meta is very prepared for metagross to the point of it being much less effective than it once was. In time, metagross will probably be less prepared for and it will become more effective. Note that there are some cases where preparedness of the meta does not correlate to a loss in viability, for example Aegislash, who took advantage of this and was able to find ways around metagame trends, resulting in its eventual ban.

 

[Finchinator]

Gonna hop on the Mega-Metagross for A+ bandwagon. Meta-Metagross is the epitome of a very good, but not consistently great pokemon in the ORAS OU metagame. While other S rank pokemon like Mega Charizard-X or Mega Altaria threaten a majority of teams with their sweeping capabilities (not to mention each of these has another solid variant outside of DD builds, being bulky wisp and mixed respectively), Mega Metagross isn't as threatening and most teams are able to handle it quite easily due to the plethora of common, viable checks and counters the tier currently has. Add onto this the fact that with a boost or two, something like the aforementioned Mega Charizard-X or Mega Altaria has the ability to break through or cripple their counters with boosted attack and go onto sweep later in games often while Mega Metagross's main answer to common counterplay is Grass Knot, which fails to hit various common checks/counters like (Mega) Scizor, Skarmory, fat Chomp, Lando-T, and Gliscor (Ice Punch hits the last few, but Ice Punch + Grass Knot is quite uncommon and makes you compromise your overall coverage, so you're always missing out on a lot of things regardless of how you use it). Overall, Mega Metagross fits into the group of strong offensive threats that can be annoying to deal with at times, but almost always will have a counter or two and thus require support or the perfect moveset to do well (making them less consistent than top threats like Mega-Zard-X and Mega-Altaria). Given this, I think it fits more into A+ than it does S.

Rotom-W has always been a poke that has seen a fair amount of usage on the ladder dating all the way back to BW1 (despite it being consistently lackluster in my opinion) and on bulky offensive and offensive teams in general as a bulky pivot, but I simply think that it doesn't warrant much usage in the current metagame unless you're being lazy in teambuilding or facing very specific circumstances that aren't often encountered. Obviously, the water-electric typing with levitate and a fair amount of natural bulk is great, but many teams rely on things like Hippowdon or other bulky grounds (think Garchomp or Landorus-T) to check scarf Landorus-T, Mega Meta (Rotom-w is a shitty check to Mega-Meta, too), offensive Scizor, Talonflame, tyranitar, etc. that Rotom-W generally is used for while speaking in terms of water types, Manaphy, Keldeo, Azumarill, Slowbro, Starmie, and (Mega) Gyarados all possess higher or comparable viability (almost all have higher) than Rotom-W while having some overlap in terms of niche with it and then other pros that Rotom-W lacks (Manaphy destroys balance, Keldeo is simply brilliant, Azumarill hits hard and can sweep with BDrum, Slowbro is a top tier physical wall with slack off + regen and sweeping capabilities, Starmie can spin, Mega Gyara can sweep, etc. - Rotom-W's "niche" over all of these is being "annoying" to deal with as defensively speaking, it isn't better than Slowbro or other things for the most part and this isn't much of a niche to boast about in comparison to others who are in A or A+ rank). I feel that most Rotom-W teams slap it on to "cover" a lot of things despite their being better or more optimal routes in teambuilding to take to cover these threats. Dropping it to A- alongside other less consistently worthwhile and viable pokemon seems like the best way to go.

Celebi has sort of just been sitting there in A- for the last couple months (I think?) despite it not really getting much use at all, especially on higher level or tournament teams. The SDef SR variant is as unproductive and underwhelming as expected while the BP variants provide some useful support, but don't find their way onto many teams and simply don't warrant it to be A- alone. I've seen a couple Nasty Plot celebi, which can be cool and a measure against balanced teams if you think about it, but it's still quite easy to check/counter and easy to revenge kill on offense while you compromise a lot of bulk and you have trouble finding the right moveset on it, so I just find Celebi to be lackluster overall and not worth its spot in A- (trying to keep this brief since this post is going to be long, so tl;dr = Celebi for B+).

Hippowdon is one of the most used pokemon in the current metagame - hell, it was the second most common poke in WCOP round 1 in ORAS OU, so it's obviously a prominent defensive presence and stealth rock setter in the tier. With that being said, it does face some competition from Rocky Helmet Garchomp and even bulky variants of Landorus-T, but on bulkier teams it tends to be the best fit for the role of ground type SR mon. There are so many teams with like Hippo + Clef + Slowbro cores and this archetype is anchored by Hippowdon while Hippo itself has plenty of other uses given its convenience and ability to wall a significant portion of the metagame. Given standard sets, the following pokemon ranked A- or higher are walled or at least checked by Hippowdon: Mega Zard-X, Mega Metagross, Bisharp, Mega Diancie, Excadrill, Garchomp, Heatran, Mega Lop, Talon, Tyranitar, Jirachi, Klefki, Magnezone, and Raikou - obviously, some of these can break Hippo with the right set or the right circumstances, but Hippowdon generally has the edge and in a realistic scenario, it can wall all of them. Given the above, the defensive presence and convenience that the standard mixed def Hippowdon grants a team is simply too much for it to remain in A rank, so I think that a rise to A+ is warranted.

There was a point in later XY when Gengar was seen as quite fast and not many teams had a switch-in to it and it deserved to be in A+ despite being the glass cannon that it is, but with all of the fast things being common (Mega Meta, Mega Diancie, Mega Lop, Latios, Latias, Mega Manec, Thundurus, Talonflame, Tornadus-T, Alakazam, Mega Alakazam, Weavile, Mega Aero, Raikou, Serp, etc. all tie or outpace Gengar) in the current metagame and gengar being fairly hard to fit into a team as it's not a reliable fairy check and there are so many things to defensively cover right now, I simply don't see it fitting into A+ anymore despite the lack of true defensive counters to Gengar in the tier. As I said, I wanted to keep it brief, so I'll leave it at the metagame being quicker makes Gengar less viable and there is simply less room to fit it onto teams, so a small drop to A couldn't hurt.

 

[TPP]

So I'm officially gonna switch sides on Mega Metagross and say it should drop to A+

I will admit Metagross has caused the metagame to shift against it. Metagross has lead to the rise of new checks for it such as Tank Chomp and Hippo, both of which make Metagross less viable. There are new ways to handle it and it just proves trends will cause anything to drop if it's too powerful. So is it less viable than before? Yes. If it drops now, then just like Zard X, there lies a possibility it can come back to S Rank because there might be a time when people will forget to prepare as much for it. But for now Metagross going to A+ isn't unreasonable since it's done it's job of causing the meta to dislike it. So personally, as much as I'd like it to stay in S rank, it's not the end of the world if it drops down to A+, which I agree is the best ranking for it at this point.

This is just a random thought, but if banned stuff like Lando-I and Greninja had stayed in OU, then there's a possibility new checks for them could have risen and they could have been less viable, but we'll never know since they'll never get retested. So I'm not completely against retesting stuff due to being able to find ways to make those mons look less broken. Granted it might take some time for new checks to be discovered. Please don't kill me for this one XD

 

[That Grammar Terrorist]

M-Aggron - Dunno if its a joke nom. To me it just looks like a M-Scizor without priority and reliable recovery, but I guess it does have a strong STAB / T-Wave / SR.. it should stay where it is. Kinda just fit on teams that absolutely needs what M-Aggron can do over M-Scizor (and that can't use the other good Steel-types..).

Well, there are a few advantages to Mega Aggron over Mega scizor. True, it doesn't have the same degree of splashibility as Mega Scizor, but it certainly does have a bit of a niche that differentiates itself as a steel tank.

One key advantage is that Mega Aggron can better check Mega Altaria, as it isn't taken out by a surprise fire blast and can be EVed to avoid a 2HKO from it. It's also not as prone to being trapped and destroyed by Magnezone, either, as it tends to pack earthquake on its non rest-talk sets, while being able to better take HP Fires.

It's definitely a niche 'mon, but in this current metagame, I feel that its role is more effective than that of Zygarde or quite a few other C- Pokemon.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

This is just a random thought, but if banned stuff like Lando-I and Greninja had stayed in OU, then there's a possibility new checks for them could have risen and they could have been less viable, but we'll never know since they'll never get retested. So I'm not completely against retesting stuff due to being able to find ways to make those mons look less broken. Granted it might take some time for new checks to be discovered. Please don't kill me for this one XD

See this is what I was scared would come of my statement. It's 100% true what you said. As I stated, you leave a non in ou long enough the meta will conform. A mon doesn't become "unbroken" the meta just over prepares for it making it seem like it just all of the sudden became balanced as if by magic. However, this is not the place for this conversation.

Now, I suppose if we're talking about how mega gross fares against the meta game he completely shifted to fit his needs, then I guess I can see it as A+. If we completely ignore the fact that the meta is the way it is because of MegaGross then I can see it in A+. Because even though it is by far the most influential Pokemon in OU right now, I guess it's not as "effective" in over prepared for Mega metagross OU.

Aegislash, who took advantage of this and was able to find ways around metagame trends, resulting in its eventual ban.

Let's not forget that much like MegaGross that was entirely dependent on its moveset. Aegi couldn't break or beat everything in the meta, because it was entirely dependent on its moveset. But I digress. This isn't a conversation about whether MegaGross is healthy or not.

Also bird spam was an entire team archetype at the time, you were essentially preparing for bird spam teams, not mega pinsir exclusively.

 

[Machi]

This is just a random thought, but if banned stuff like Lando-I and Greninja had stayed in OU, then there's a possibility new checks for them could have risen and they could have been less viable, but we'll never know since they'll never get retested. So I'm not completely against retesting stuff due to being able to find ways to make those mons look less broken. Granted it might take some time for new checks to be discovered. Please don't kill me for this one XD

I think in the case of things like Lando-I or Greninja they've had ample enough time to have most stuff "discovered" or adapted to them but generally I think the safer approach to retesting ultimately boils down to new additions, i.e. a new game, since often the tools and metagame will have shifted enough.

Now, I suppose if we're talking about how mega gross fares against the meta game he completely shifted to fit his needs, then I guess I can see it as A+. If we completely ignore the fact that the meta is the way it is because of MegaGross then I can see it in A+. Because even though it is by far the most influential Pokemon in OU right now, I guess it's not as "effective" in over prepared for Mega metagross OU.

I think this is a fair point to bring up about MMGross because while it may not be as effective many of the trends that work against it was a result of adapting against MMGross and exploiting it.

I think this is something that needs to be better considered in the rankings in so much that how can one tell the difference between the environment simply adapting or being influenced, because that does straddle a fine line that does put a lot of things borderline -- another case in point is Keldeo. I mean he isn't that difficult as an offensive mon to switch into and deal with defensively, he doesn't dominate defensive cores, but at the same time certain defensive cores are the way they are because of its influence.

 

[Yugi]

Sneakily giving MKA1 to people that are in the drop megagross and AK47 to those that want it to stay,so AM cant see(AM Stahp this BS right now,tell us something dude).


Anywayzzzzz

So I'm officially gonna switch sides on Mega Metagross and say it should drop to A+

I will admit Metagross has caused the metagame to shift against it. Metagross has lead to the rise of new checks for it such as Tank Chomp and Hippo, both of which make Metagross less viable. There are new ways to handle it and it just proves trends will cause anything to drop if it's too powerful. So is it less viable than before? Yes. If it drops now, then just like Zard X, there lies a possibility it can come back to S Rank because there might be a time when people will forget to prepare as much for it. But for now Metagross going to A+ isn't unreasonable since it's done it's job of causing the meta to dislike it. So personally, as much as I'd like it to stay in S rank, it's not the end of the world if it drops down to A+, which I agree is the best ranking for it at this point.

This is just a random thought, but if banned stuff like Lando-I and Greninja had stayed in OU, then there's a possibility new checks for them could have risen and they could have been less viable, but we'll never know since they'll never get retested. So I'm not completely against retesting stuff due to being able to find ways to make those mons look less broken. Granted it might take some time for new checks to be discovered. Please don't kill me for this one XD

I agree with you(gimme a M4A1),he should go to A+.Bulky mons do take care of this pokemon pretty good and especially bulky grounds like Hippi and Chomps,and the metagame has evolved in a sense that megagross isnt that great anymore.Hippi and Chomps came here with a bang,and just dropped the sense out of megagross,and mega scizor counters it.,Slowbro is good too,but its a risk for a Gknot

 

[Halcyon.]

js, people run Rhelmet Garchomp for Lopunny and Talonflame too. Hippo was always a great check to LO Gar Taon and Lopunny and was not something tha just popped out of the ground to beat Metagross. Suicune is on the rise because of how many teams are weak to it without their own CM user, which Roar can help with. Scizor rose because of Altaria and anyone who thinks differently is kidding themselves. None of these changes has anything to do with the meta being "warped" around Metagross. They are simply coincidentally happen to make Metagross less effective. It's the same as when Lando-T was everywhere in early XY before Lando-I became popular and Zard X died down in usage. It had nothing to do with Zard X it was just a meta shift that was unfavorable for it. Metagross is experiencing one rn and that makes it not S anymore. There's really no argument here.

 

[Pottd]

All top tier threats have an influence on the Metagame, thats why they are considered top tier threats. In the case of Mega meta I think its not true to say that this pokemon has wrapped the metagame around himself, things like Hippo, Tank chomp and scizor didnt rise in usuage solely because of mega meta as some of you are trying to say. Hippo rose because it can deal with a huge amount of threats (lopunny, bisharp, Zard X, Altaria ect..). Tank Chomp purpose was not to deal with mega meta like someone said but actually to deal with Talonflame and birdspam mega meta is just a bonus, And Scizor's rise was mainly to check fairies like Mega Alt and Mega Diance not because it could just deal with Meta. Just had to say all that.

I Havent decided if Mega Meta should be A+ or S, but I definitely think that its the worst of all S ranks and Definitely MOST DEFINITELY not the most influential pokemon in OU right now

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[Of Moose & Men]

AlrIght, let's not act like this is all a coincidence. That works both ways. Is it a coincidence that they counter MegaGross, or is it a coincidence that they hard check other mons? No way of knowing, so let's not act like the reason these mons are on the rise is because of another mon, and they just so happen to also coincidentally beat MegaGross 'cause it can be used both ways. I think there is a fairly clear reason they rose in usage, but maybe it is just coincidence. Do these other Pokemon also do decently against other threats? Yea, absolutely, but the over presence of them now is quite telling. Again, if we're fine with "MegaGross is A+ because the meta has conformed to it" then I can't argue that. Because frankly it's true. But I can't say I'd be content with it. It has everything any Pokemon could ever possibly want, there's nothing it wants aside from a 5th move, but it doesn't NEED it to be effective. It's the premier mon to be frank, it's just that it has trouble breaking through dedicated counters, like most mons. Idk, maybe it's just my deep rooted hatred for this thing, but I don't think it should have ever stayed in the first place, but I digress. I still believe, and have no reason not to, it is one of the top threats in OU right now. malt is relatively adapted to, but it's still sitting in S, as it should be. I have a very simple idea of what S rank Pokemon should be, and that's the best package a Pokemon could ever hope to be. Which is the definition of the 4 S ranked Pokemon we have now. But who knows, maybe my definition of S is "wrong". I also never agreed with Keldeo dropping for this reason as it is. So maybe it's just me and my idea of what S is defined as.

 

[AM]

Sneakily giving MKA1 to people that are in the drop megagross and AK47 to those that want it to stay,so AM cant see(AM Stahp this BS right now,tell us something dude).

?

 

[MilkyWay]

My only problem with dropping Mega Metagross is that Clefable will still remain in S, who, imo, is worse than Mega Metagross (although I believe both pokemon deserve A+). I think Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria are by far the best two pokemon in the game and the viability rankings should reflect that as well. Gonna keep this short because I'm on mobile, but I also think Clefabble should drop because it's very similar to Ferrothorn in that they both blanket check a good amount of the meta (although completely different 'mons) and I really don't see Clefable as two ranks ahead of Ferro. Of course, Clefable has Calm Mind, two good abilities, and better recovery, which is why it should be A+, one rank ahead of Ferrothorn. Finally, one of the arguements that keeps coming up against Ferrothorn applies to Clefable as well: That team builders use it to check too much and it eventually gets worn down and beat by things it was supposed to check. Think about it, Clefable has to be at full health to check many pokemon it's supposed to beat and if it gets worn down too much they can usually muscle right through it.

Again, Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria are easily the best pokemon in the game, the rankings should reflect that.

Mega Metagross ---> A+
Clefable ---> A+

 

[Kurona]

Mega Metagross shouldn't drop because an S-rank 'mon should be the focal point of the VR art, and if it was to go to A+ then the current picture's artist's skill would have gone to waste and we'd have to make them do another picture :( be a nice person

In all seriousness I'm starting to side with the S > A+ side of the argument here. Waaaaaay back when we had that Gliscor A+ > S 'mon I was on the side of disagreement because, despite the fact they rose in usage almost solely to check Gliscor, checks for Gliscor were too common. And I still stand by this reasoning. Whether it was the Pokémon in question's influence or not doesn't matter to me; what matters is how common these Pokémon are and how troubling they are for the Pokémon. The way I see it the Viability Rankings are first and foremost not a list of the biggest threats to prepare for or which Pokémon have the greatest influence on the meta - but you can certainly get a good idea of that from this list - but how well a Pokémon does in the current meta and how easily you can fit them on a team. Correct me if this stance is inherently wrong, but the tl;dr version is that I see this as a teambuilding guide rather than a threat list.
So with that said, if a Pokémon is in S and checks for it rise in usage, I follow a simple two-option route:-
-Option 1, the Pokémon is easily able to find ways around at least a large amount of these checks or at least can easily make them a non-issue from the very slightest support ala Aegislash, and does not drop.
-Option 2, the Pokémon is of course still effective, but doesn't have the easiest time dealing with these checks and the amount of support it needs is a little more significant, ala Gliscor. Where you draw the bar on this significance of support is subjective, and maybe this is too simplistic, but it's just the way I see it.

There is one small thing from the S > A+ side that's annoyed me though; and that's using 4MSS as a point. I thought we resolved this long ago - 4MSS practically doesn't exist and the moves you carry are entirely team dependent. If you've competently built your team, then yes an extra moveslot on Metagross for Thunder Punch or Grass Knot or whatever else you'd like would definitely be great, but you could say the same thing for even Mega Charizard X (who'd like DD, Fire STAB, D-Claw, Roost and EQ) - they don't need more than 4 moves to be effective. Just because your Metagross doesn't carry Thunderpunch doesn't mean you're dead if you find yourself up against a Skarmory - the rest of your team should be able to handle it. If a Pokémon needed more than four moves to actually work I doubt they'd be anywhere near A.




a-also if I was wrong about Gliscor's checks being too common please don't kill me and just use it as a shitty example ;;

 

[Vengeance417]

Why are people saying Clefable is worse than Megagross? Do you guys not realize how borderline skill-less its T-Wave CM set is to use? Anything bar electric or grounds are extremely hesitant to come in on Clef because they don't want to be enveloped in that yellow magic, and most of the electric and grounds in OU still have a hard time dealing with this fat fuck.

Unless Heatran has Roar, most Heatran sets without Roar actually lose the war vs Clef after it has come in on a Thunder Wave and Clef has gotten enough CM boosts. Not even Megagross himself wants to switch in on Clef because it fears the potential fire coverage move, or worse still, the Thunder Wave.

It just makes me cringe when people here say that Clef is the weakest S rank because that simply isn't true at all. In my opinion, it's actually the best Pokemon in OU right now. The fact that it's the only S rank that IS NOT a mega should speak volumes about how splash-able this thing is. There is literally no reason not to run a Clefable on most teams these days.

 

[TPP]

My only problem with dropping Mega Metagross is that Clefable will still remain in S, who, imo, is worse than Mega Metagross (although I believe both pokemon deserve A+). I think Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria are by far the best two pokemon in the game and the viability rankings should reflect that as well. Gonna keep this short because I'm on mobile, but I also think Clefabble should drop because it's very similar to Ferrothorn in that they both blanket check a good amount of the meta (although completely different 'mons) and I really don't see Clefable as two ranks ahead of Ferro. Of course, Clefable has Calm Mind, two good abilities, and better recovery, which is why it should be A+, one rank ahead of Ferrothorn. Finally, one of the arguements that keeps coming up against Ferrothorn applies to Clefable as well: That team builders use it to check too much and it eventually gets worn down and beat by things it was supposed to check. Think about it, Clefable has to be at full health to check many pokemon it's supposed to beat and if it gets worn down too much they can usually muscle right through it.

Again, Mega Charizard X and Mega Altaria are easily the best pokemon in the game, the rankings should reflect that.

Mega Metagross ---> A+
Clefable ---> A+

I'm gonna disagree and say Clefable is one of the best mons at the moment for several reasons. Besides the great abilities, it can run Thunder wave and/or Flamethrower. Only ground and electric types are safe from Thunder wave, and steel types run the risk of taking a flamethrower and/or being crippled by Thunder wave. It might just be me, but I find Clefable a bit hard to switch into sometimes because of those 2 moves. Not only that, it can set up with Calm Mind, use softboiled/ moonlight to recover instantly, and it has a ton of support moves including Protect, Wish, Protect, Heal Bell and Stealth Rock. It has other moves such as Stored Power, Healing Wish, Knock Off, Focus Blast, Ice Beam and Grass Knot, which aren't common at all, but can still be usable and might be more common in the future depending on the trends. It can use those moves to lure stuff like in a similar fashion as Thunder wave and Flamethrower. It's also able to check a ton of things such as the rising Weavile and it can also act as a status absorber with Magic Guard. It's a low risk (besides its speed which isn't too bad, are there any risks to running it?) mon and has plenty of upside to it.

Correct me if I'm wrong on this one, but it can also be difficult to 1HKO since Gengar and Mega Metagross are the only ones that can do it (not including setup sweepers due to Unaware). If you don't 1HKO it, then it can either cripple you with Thunder wave, get a wish off, recover, kill you, or lay some Stealth Rock. Imo all of those scenarios are hard to get through and as much as I hate Clefable, I'll admit it definitely deserves its S rank position. If I'm wrong on any points I made, please correct me.

 

[EternalSnowman]

I haven't participated much in this M-Metagross discussion, but I want to give my 2 cents now.

The viability rankings are where both newbies and experienced players go to prepare for teambuilding. We are all arguing about whether or not M-Metagross should drop to A+ or stay in S. I am on the side of M-Metagross stays in S. I will explain why, because it has a lot to do with the first sentence in this paragraph. I think that the most important part of the viability rankings is that it helps the community in general to teambuild and prepare for threats. While I do think that M-Metagross has dropped in effectiveness a little bit, I do think that dropping it from to A+ would be somewhat problematic. All things considered, people won't prepare as much for A+ threats as much as S tier threats, just by looking at the viability rankings. They will first and foremost look at the S tier threats. Dropping it to A+ could have an unhealthy lack of preparation, however it won't be apparent within the higher area of play, but I am doing this out of concern for the low ladder. I believe they have enough cancer as it is, so we should at least throw them a bone here. At any rate, it still dominates a majority of the meta, so despite what you guys have listed off, it only has situational checks outside of M-Scizor, which is able to reliably beat it. But wait, that sounds exactly like M-Altaria. It has situational checks except for one, which is M-Venusaur which beats it no matter what set it is running. In fact it is even more harmful to M-Altaria because getting forced out means it loses all of its hard-earned boosts. Not to mention that M-Venusaur are very difficult to take down, delaying M-Altaria's sweep even further. Granted M-Scizor has similar merits against M-Metagross. Hmmmmm... I would actually like to compare M-Metagross with our most recently banned friend, Landorus-I. Many people have been saying that the 4MSS is a big problem, Landorus-I had a similar problem. Lack of speed, lack of perfect coverage, situational checks. In fact, in my opinion, Landorus-I's problems are even more amplified then M-Metagross, as there are even more situational checks. I am comparing these two due to the fact that the serve similar roles within a team, with lack of reliable recovery, high power and access to a variety of coverage. Granted I do believe Landorus-I is stronger due to the fact that it doesn't take up a mega slot but they are very similar. Another thing to add here is that when crippling M-Metagross vs. crippling a Zard-X or a M-Altaria, it is much more important to keep Zard-X and M-Altaria healthy. These two inherently are more important to the team as a sweeper. If a wallbreaker happens to punch holes in the opposing team in exchange for getting crippled it is doing its job well, as M-Metagross also has a team. M-Metagross should be run alongside another sweeper, perhaps something like Gyarados or Dragonite, rather than being run by itself. It has many advantages and overall it shouldn't be a mon you rely on to 1v3 a defensive core, because none of the S-Rank mons can do that. The amount of support needed for each of the S-Rank mons differ and vary, however in all the posts for M-Metagross dropping, most of them neglect this fact. If they have a defensive core, you can run an offensive core. Magnezone is a good example of this, as between the two of them they can pretty much beat the entire meta. (This is running both Ice Punch and Grass Knot on M-Metagross). This type of offensive core is capable of defeating all of the aforementioned defensive cores, namely Counter SpDef Skarm + Hippo. I know this is a long rant, but at the end of the day I am going to bring up the point of our community. While you may be just groaning at this, I think that if the community underprepares for it then it will become the next suspect again, and it will only hurt the low ladder even more.

 

[Vengeance417]

words

In my opinion, mons from S and A+ should be EQUALLY prepared for. It is absolutely necessary for your team to have an answer to birdspam, an electric resist, a water-spam check and a ground resist (obviously this isn't EVERYTHING but these are some examples), and none of these threats are S rank right now. If anything, we should be teaching players of the low ladder to prepare for as much as possible, not just primarily S rank threats.

 

[dice]

wrt metagross: i'm concurring with the a+ metagross sentiments. metagross hella strong, but it still has some dastardly restrictions. something that hasn't really been discussed is its splashability compared to the other mons of the s caliber. due to the lack of a mega opportunity cost, clefable easily takes the cake; however, altaria and charizard are viable in hella more playstyles than mega gross imo. compared to other steels defensively speaking, metagross fares much more poorly on balance. its ability to break through certain defensive cores is hardly appreciated when its team members can't take advantage of it, and why else would u use metagross if it weren't for that fact? other steels just are much better suited for more balanced squads. exca can provide a thund check + spin, ferrothorn can set down hazards/check waters/be annoying, scizor has much more longevity/can reliably beat metagross/better altaria check, etc. i just have never seen metagross perform well outside of an offensive squad. a prime example of it being used on balance recently is heist vs speto where heist's metagross could have opened with some support, but metagross was the only thing skarmory needed to check due to a relatively passive team and thus it turned out badly. i'd only ever use metagross on offense like in my wcop game vs living so zambian where u have hella breakers alongside it to allow it to do work. altaria and zard-x are viable in literally every team style; they are way more versatile in their sets which are all equally strong, and thus are easily more splashable and threatening.

the metagame shift in the ubiquity of bulky chomp really has made metagross more of a liability than u would think; more often than not metagross is ur sole steel and clefable check, so losing >50% dmg to garchomp just paves the way for a lil finger twirling fairy to pound u. rocky helmet land-t / skarmory also have posed a similar but less threatening issue. these minor nuances rly make it tougher on lil gross's livelihood and, comparatively speaking, he isn't as versatile / regularly strong as the other dudes in S imo.