It's better to be immune to residual damage then to discourage being afflicted by it. Magic Guard and Unaware are objectively very useful abilities. Umbreon's stats are superior on the bulk side, yes, but outside of Foul Play it's offensive presence is practically non-existent. All it really has over Clefable is dealing with certain threats better (Usually things Clefable is weak to), so it can fit on a select team although Clefable is generally more splashable and blanket checks more.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
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Ok then shouldn't it be at least E or D if it is the one thing that covers what cleffable does not?
No, move on
E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a very low amount of viability. Their positive traits are strongly hindered by their negative traits. These Pokemon are justified for very specific roles in the meta-game for very select teams.
How does umbreon not fit that based on what Flygonial and give me an A have said?
And why would a mod discourage discussion on a discussion forum...
Because using definitions alone is always bad. Umbreon is bad even for bad sake.
I discourage 3+ pages of arguments that not one person is going to care about cause the discussion points were already established in the OP of this thread. It's also the fact that anything going to E or from unranked needs to be PM'd to me personally. There's no point in "discussion" if it'll inevitably rot someones brain.
You dismiss Noivern's advantages over Lati so quickly. Noivern's speed gives it a great advantage in this ridiculously fast meta, and it would just go for Hurricane against Keldeo in that situation. Yes it may be outclassed in many scenarios but it has its own niche as the fastest dragon outside of Kingdra in rain and it has flamethrower as well which is great. .. the mega argument with Altaria is bullshit as well, you can't just dismiss a huge argument by saying "Ataria is that good"from C- -------> Unranked:
Seriously why is this pile of garbage still ranked? Noivern is completely outclassed by tornadus-t outside of the extremely irrelevant niche of being able to beat the charizard x + serperior core which is so small and team specific a niche that it's ranking is debatable at best, and mega altaria can do that and not be a complete waste of a teamslot. The argument mega altaria takes up a mega is also moot since mega alt is really that good. It's also extremely weak and can't even ohko keldeo, a pokemon with 90/90/90 bulk uninvested with a draco meteor. Noivern's main niche of outspeeding greninja was also lost since it was banned leaving even less reason to actually use it. Latios also outclasses it as a special attacking dragon outside of unimportant advantages such as a lack of a pursuit weakness, flying stab, a better speed tier, and coverage for steel types which all mean nothing as latios has a better everything else and can run earthquake, surf, thunderbolt, or hp fire/hp fighting and it would still be more useful then noivern. In fact even some E ranks like stunfisk have more notable niches then noivern. For these reasons I nominate noivern from C- to Unranked.252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 247-292 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I could see a push for a drop to D although i think c- is better, but definitely not being unranked.
K after AM kindly handed me a nice team, i went on to discover that mega medi is nicer than i thought.
I mean on paper it has all these flaws, like subpar speed, subpar stabs, subpar bulk, etc, but im honestly not sure how it does so much better in practice lol. I think the reason why is because it has baton pass. Sure, mega sableye, mew, and slowbro may be pretty hard counters but why worry about any of that when you can just baton pass, maintain momentum, and continue to keep up offensive presence.
tbh i don't use it that often because its so much fun to click hjk and watch everything drop (another thing mega hera doesn't have, consistency in its moves. It needs to predict correctly or it can be easily forced out), but when a bulky psychic does appear you can easily baton pass as that counter is forced in and pressure the team with your azu or gengar. On top of consistency, it has the raw power to push through resists, far far more than mons like mega gardevoir.
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin: 225-265 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 354-417 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
put timid/jolly because realistically speaking outpacing kyu-b+mana is way too important to miss out on
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 354-417 (103.8 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
put timid/jolly because realistically speaking outpacing kyu-b+mana is way too important to miss out on
I earlier stated that it "requires" pokemon to push through/lure its counters and do its job, but after using baton pass its more like giving its partners free switch-ins. I guess it is needed but its not really a burden, it's freaking fantastic to give azu and gengar free switch-ins. The team just ends up having a nice flow.
I wouldn't rly say the meta is getting more offensively-paced, sure there's wallbreakers that are rising in popularity (like diggers, kyu-b) but more and more often I see in wcop bulky teams with a wallbreaker and an anti-offense mon, something like hippo/3 bulky shit/exca/mana, or maybe 4 bulky shit/mega garde or what not/weav or sash zam or w/e. Teams like these simply get their shit pushed in, so i don't believe the meta is shifting against medi.
People are stocking up on steels to handle mega altaria as well, medi loves to ohko those.
Ofc you're right about it not being better than mchomp, my bae is way too good on paper to not be atleast B+ even though he is worse in practice.
also, mhera doesn't switch into weavile sry
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Heracross: 152-179 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I can def. agree tangy to B+, checks way too much shit while maintaining offensive presence to not be there.Not going to comment on Hippowdon/Gengar/Metagross but I agree with the changes proposed for them.
The Raikou/Manectric slander always amused me. I won't deny it's a huge drawback that both of them just completely forfeit momentum vs a Hippowdon team, especially when Hippowdon is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame, but there are pros aside from that. As good as Hippowdon is in the current meta, there are some fantastic water types [Azumarill, Manaphy, Gyarados] that can heavily dent balance. I don't think Manectric is useless in a matchup vs a balanced team is the opposing player is always going to his Hippowdon. Obviously it won't always play out that way in practice, but Manectric can be a great pivot to a water type that can double switch in on the expected Hippowdon. Manectric certainly has a hard time vs Hippowdon balance since it's not the strongest attacker, but its ability to potentially create a sequence where you CAN get one of your powerful attackers in by forcing in a Hippowdon/Latias/etc doesn't make it 'useless' in that matchup for me. Vs Offense it's a very solid Pokemon with great speed/coverage and while it can't outright beat offensive teams on its own, it can definitely dent them and is able to reap a ton of momentum. Manectric threatens the most prominent Ground-Type on offense in Garchomp, allowing it to consistently retain momentum via Volt Switch if the Garchomp user attempts to play conservatively [most do at first]. Manectric is also a really useful check to some of OU's most prominent attackers in Talonflame, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, and Scizor, not to mention how nice it is to have a fast Electric-Type in a metagame full of strong water types. A+
Another Pokemon, like Gengar, that is sort of hard-pressed to survive in the fast paced meta. 350 speed isn't fantastic for a frail sweeper, not to mention it has to sacrifice a turn and moveslot to Mega Evolve [though I won't deny Protect can be useful]. It's coverage is pretty neat but it's not sitting at Landorus-I level power. The Rock Polish set requires chip damage on a lot of things for it to actually sweep, plus priority is everywhere. Not to mention it's fairly hard to even set up an RP with such a frail Pokemon, you'll probably have to rely on winning a 50/50 via forcing the opponent to switch out. This is incredibly mediocre in comparison to RP Landorus-i, who could blow through almost everything at +0, or even RP Metagross, who has the bulk to set up easily and remain a decent cleaner. Diancie isn't great in an offensive matchup-its speed, power and sweeping potential are only alright. I don't think it's great vs balanced either. A bunch of balanced teams are stocking themselves with steel types to take on Mega Altaria [in fact 9 steel types saw more usage than Diancie in WCOP]. Even if Diancie could theoretically break balance with prediction, it's pretty hard pressed to do so, because many of the common Pokemon on balanced teams [Slowbro, Jirachi, Hippowdon, Venusaur] have the potential to force Diancie out. It's nice that Diancie can take advantage of a great Pokemon like Tornadus-T, but it's succeptible to chip damage by switching directly in, and beyond that, it simply doesn't have the coverage or power to tear through a balanced team like a Manaphy or Gardevoir can, or Landorus-I when that was still around. The Pokemon still has some nice upside and can definitely be useful to threaten/revenge certain Pokemon, but I don't think this guy has much of a presence or ability to be consistently useful in the current meta because of metagame shifts that promoted faster offensive teams with more priority and an influx of steel-types to deal with Mega Altaria and Clefable. A
This Pokemon is actually pretty useful in the current meta with an Assault Vest. One of the rare few Pokemon that can counter both Keldeo and Gyarados, and act as a situational check to Manaphy and Azumarill. Pretty good vs Bisharp and Excadrill which is also nice, I've also seen people run Sludge Bomb for Mega Altaria. Also stands pretty tall vs physical rain sweepers like Kabutops and Swampert... cute... lovely... smart... plus... amazing... you think so?... oh yes... it... stunning... kindly... love it! Hug it... when... sleeping... warm and cuddly... spectacular... ravishing. No but basically Tangrowth can take on a lot of stuff in a pinch and Regenerator is always useful. It suffers a bit from 'do nothing syndrome' since it might not have as much to gain from tossing out an attack as other defensive walls using scald/toxic/spikes, but it Knock Off can be pretty handy while Rock Slide can catch Talon/Charizard by surprise. Immunity to Leech Seed is also nice as fuck, not many Pokemon can just give the middle finger to ferro like Tangrowth. I can expand on Tangrowth theory if needed but it seems a little weird to have a poke with such high defensive potential chilling with the likes of Toxicroak and Conkeldurr. B+
The argument where u force in hippo/lati with megaman not making it useless applies to every single pokemon and their check, and the prediction argument can also go both ways, so that's not enough to keep it A+. It's a pain in the ass to try and deal with it when playing offense, and it checks tons of stuff for its speed and offensive nature, but the fact that its totally cockblocked by one of the best and most splashable mons in the tier really keeps it in check.
While the increase in mzor and in general steels hampers diancie (and the other various flaws you pointed out are completely true) you're forgetting that the rise of zards and torn-t also help diancie as it can check them pretty nicely, and offense often has to scramble to try and check them. While its performance vs balance is pretty prediction reliant, the fact that it puts that pressure on the opponent to make the correct switch-in is still relevant; it doesn't have the raw power to push through but its still a notable threat. Goes without saying that its ability is one of the best in the game.
And we all know that fairy types that have stabs to push through fire will always be tricky to handle, that's why azu is so good.
Swampert to me is a good on paper, poor in practice mon. It's really hampered by the fact it can't get SS activated on the mega turn, and following that, every time it switches, it's losing its potential to win as Toed will be constantly getting weakened, and while yes, Pert (Hapley?)can set rain itself, it's then gonna lose room for coverage like Low Kick which it needs to break Ferro. As a rain sweeper, it's beaten by Ferro, Rotom, Slowbro, Venu, Gyara, Chesnaught and many others... why in rain would I want to use my mega slot on something that just makes it harder to beat some of the hardest things for rain itself to beat?
Pert relies almost entirely on Waterfall and I don't see anything special about a rain sweeper that just spams water moves + other STAB. Sure it has good bulk but no recovery makes that harder to abuse. It's still good and B+ reflects that, but it can't go above Kingdra without some drastic changes in the meta.
By special I mean different or new, something special to justify using the mega slot on it because otherwise you can just use Kingdra, Omastar, a well played Beartic or something else.
I'm not saying that not being 'special' is bad or that it makes the Pokemon unusable, but that it's hard to justify using a mega slot on something that you can find somewhere else.
I guess it does apply to most Pokemon but at the very least it doesn't make manectric useless in a matchup vs Hippowdon Balance/Bulky Offense. Altaria-Mega can't get past Venusaur for shit but it's still a pretty solid Pokemon despite that setback. Obviously Hippowdon is more common than Venusaur right now but even the most consistent Pokemon are useless in certain matchups. Pokemon A could be the main win condition vs one team with Pokemon B being fodder, but these roles could easily be reversed in a different matchup. As good as Hippowdon is, it's not going to appear in every game-even at a high level tournament where it's supposed to be highly coveted. In the Hippowdon matchups, Manectric at least has the ability to possibly pivot the balance breaker that can be the win condition vs the Hippowdon team. Maybe it's not the biggest advantage, but it's better than nothing. There are always going to be matchups in which Pokemon won't be effective and Hippowdon will never become omnipresent. Honestly though this one's more debatable I think than my other points, I can definitely see the argument to keep it in A.
Diancie is still pretty good certainly, but the cost of using up a mega slot for it when there are so many better one's available doesn't really justify keeping it in A+. Torn-T might be hard to check for offense, but the Charizards aren't that hard to check with offense; Scarf Landorus-T, Azumarill, Talonflame, Lati@s are all solid checks viable on these playstyles, all of which are both effective and don't use up a mega slot. I'm not saying Diancie is useless in that niche because there's Pokemon exist, but it's not providing anything unique in this regard. I think the mega slot it uses is a big point of discussion actually-compare it to the other megas in S Rank and A+ rank and Diancie honestly pales in comparison to them.
Honestly all these Pokemon are amazing in the current meta [maybe not Metagross, but it's still very good] and provide incredible team support, sweeping power, or both. I don't think Diancie is as good a breaker or sweeper as any of the Pokemon listed, given it's low speed stat, lack of access to a move that boosts an attacking stat/speed and susceptibility to priority. Magic Bounce is somewhat cool, but unlike Sableye, almost every hazard layer can threaten it, other than Heatran without Earth Power/Flash cannon, so really the 50/50 is heavily biased towards the guy laying the hazards, as you usually wouldn't risk Diancie just to prevent a layer of Spikes or SR.
I guess my main issue with your Alt vs Mane comparison in Venu vs Hippo balance is that Mane doesn't really offer much utility defensively, while Altaria does even if it is hard stopped offensively. On top of that a major part of Manectric's utility is Volt Switching which Hippo entirely shuts down, whereas Altaria is still capable of using Heal Bell (if it carries it) or whatever other utility (probably defensive) it is offering even if the other team has a Venusaur. Granted this is why they are 2 sub ranks apart but I just feel like the comparison is faulty.
Also I really don't think Mega Gyarados is that much better than Mega Diancie. The only reason I'd even say it's better in the current metagame is because Mega Scizor is very common. I will definitely grant your argument regarding what it checks; these things are not the hardest to check outside of Torn-T but Diancie's prowess is moreso in being very difficult to switch into. There really aren't many safe switch-ins when HP [Fire] is considered as a coverage move. The thing about Mega Diancie is it's a bit similar to Mega Metagross in the sense that it both has the ability to sweep thanks to its speed tier, but also functions as a mixed wallbreaker because of its excellent offensive stats (and actually has a better STAB combo than Metagross although its bulk pales in comparison). This allows it to weaken its own checks and counters early on to set up a sweep for itself late game, which not a whole ton of pokemon can do at the same level of efficiency.
I've used Mega Diancie a fair amount in the post-Landorus metagame and I think it's still worthy of A+. Some of its hard checks are quite common but it's still fantastic against a lot of things and has solid matchups across the board against Offense (though it struggles vs Weather but many things do), Balance and Stall. I also just think it's straight up more of a threat than pretty much all of A rank bar Hippo which looks poised for a rise.
BTW I noticed that my desire to discuss Mega Latias has been kind of overlooked. I never made a nomination for it to drop but as I originally stated, a large reason for its rise was the overcentralization of Landorus. With the genie gone, I wouldn't say that Mega Latias is bad now but it has certainly lost some of its luster (the rise of Weavile doesn't help either) and I am curious to hear from those who have more experience with it. Knowing that I guess I'll make the nomination as I'm prepared to receive whatever flak just for the chance to start a discussion and gain knowledge on the subject. Mega Latias to A-
Also I really don't think Mega Gyarados is that much better than Mega Diancie. The only reason I'd even say it's better in the current metagame is because Mega Scizor is very common. I will definitely grant your argument regarding what it checks; these things are not the hardest to check outside of Torn-T but Diancie's prowess is moreso in being very difficult to switch into. There really aren't many safe switch-ins when HP [Fire] is considered as a coverage move. The thing about Mega Diancie is it's a bit similar to Mega Metagross in the sense that it both has the ability to sweep thanks to its speed tier, but also functions as a mixed wallbreaker because of its excellent offensive stats (and actually has a better STAB combo than Metagross although its bulk pales in comparison). This allows it to weaken its own checks and counters early on to set up a sweep for itself late game, which not a whole ton of pokemon can do at the same level of efficiency.
I've used Mega Diancie a fair amount in the post-Landorus metagame and I think it's still worthy of A+. Some of its hard checks are quite common but it's still fantastic against a lot of things and has solid matchups across the board against Offense (though it struggles vs Weather but many things do), Balance and Stall. I also just think it's straight up more of a threat than pretty much all of A rank bar Hippo which looks poised for a rise.
BTW I noticed that my desire to discuss Mega Latias has been kind of overlooked. I never made a nomination for it to drop but as I originally stated, a large reason for its rise was the overcentralization of Landorus. With the genie gone, I wouldn't say that Mega Latias is bad now but it has certainly lost some of its luster (the rise of Weavile doesn't help either) and I am curious to hear from those who have more experience with it. Knowing that I guess I'll make the nomination as I'm prepared to receive whatever flak just for the chance to start a discussion and gain knowledge on the subject. Mega Latias to A-
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I can support Mega Latias to A-. After the ban of Landorus-I its usage and overall viability in the tier have decreased. It can be a potent sweeper and has massive bulk but being completely walled out of your only attacking move by a fairly common type means you will have to put in so much extra work to make this Pokemon even half usable.
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew in Rain: 240-283 (70.3 - 82.9%)
212+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%)
212+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Rain: 298-352 (87.3 - 103.2%)
252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 199-235 (58.3 - 68.9%)
212+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 235-278 (68.9 - 81.5%)
Kingdra is actually stronger due to BP. It also can't be outsped, period (scarf timid Raikou??) while M-Swampert can be outsped by things like Scarf Keldeo or Garchomp, and it has to wait a turn for SS to activate.
M-Swampert is, however, bulky as sin while still hitting pretty hard, which is why it's good, but Kingdra is really more essential to a rain team since it's the hardest to check. Also Scald lel.
As for a Rain Dance set, I don't have any experience on that.
No, M-Swampert is good in practice. For something so fast and strong it's pretty hard to KO, especially if you use Rest (sleep talk optional) on it.
Dunno why some people think that M-Latias's only good set is CM Stored Power? 3 Attacks Roost is quite good on balance builds thanks to its bulk and power. Ok yeah it might not be as threatening as Zard X, Alt, Gyara, and Metagross offensively, but it has a niche defensively. It handles Zard Y better than non-mega Latias thanks to not having Life Orb and having more bulk. I personally like Dpulse / Tbolt / Hp Fire / Roost quite a lot, although I have seen Psyshock / HP Fire / Twave or Ice Beam / Tbolt / Twave being used to good success. The main issue with it is the opportunity cost, since it uses the Mega Stone, but it will work extremely well if your team needs it.
I used and played against rain quite a bit, and the biggest let down with Swampert is how fucking slow it is t1. There's also how you would usually want to use the Mega on a stronger balance breaker on rain or to cover weaknesses, such as Mega Heracross or Mega Scizor along other 'mons like Mega Altaria. IMO that last point is huge especially when you realise that Swampert doesn't offer a stronger Swift Swimmer than Kingdra or Omastar for rain, so the opportunity cost just grows. Only good point about it is its bulk and its ability to shit on Electrics that rain sometimes struggle against.
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Just wondering: Why isn't Slowking in the same rank as Slowbro? Its Special bulk often comes in handy to handle threats like M-Gross and is still quite bulky on the physical side, so I don't really get why it's 2 subrank below Slowbro :(
I'm guessing the phdef bulk comes in handy more often when facing Sand teams, but you guys probably know something I don't
e: ok y good point
SDpass Celebi / Mew paired with RD Swampert is cute, but I would only use that to counterstyle someone or for fun lol
I used and played against rain quite a bit, and the biggest let down with Swampert is how fucking slow it is t1. There's also how you would usually want to use the Mega on a stronger balance breaker on rain or to cover weaknesses, such as Mega Heracross or Mega Scizor along other 'mons like Mega Altaria. IMO that last point is huge especially when you realise that Swampert doesn't offer a stronger Swift Swimmer than Kingdra or Omastar for rain, so the opportunity cost just grows. Only good point about it is its bulk and its ability to shit on Electrics that rain sometimes struggle against.
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Just wondering: Why isn't Slowking in the same rank as Slowbro? Its Special bulk often comes in handy to handle threats like M-Gross and is still quite bulky on the physical side, so I don't really get why it's 2 subrank below Slowbro :(
I'm guessing the phdef bulk comes in handy more often when facing Sand teams, but you guys probably know something I don't
e: ok y good point
The Physical Defense mostly, for the Slowbro point. Helps with stuff like Lopunny and Zard-X as well.
Did Mega Latias raise to A because it countered Lando or because it is a potent calm minder? I don't agree with Mega Latias dropping just because Lando was banned as it has never been a splashable mon you could just slap on your team, aside from being a mega it requires dedicated support so yeah, Lando getting banned had little to do with it's effeciveness.
It is another matter though if the metagame as a whole has gotten less favorable, the rise of Weavile is a better reason to drop it down as it just a fodder to it no matter what and many of the best mons atm have little problems handling it so Mega Latias drop is certainly conceivable, I think this deserves more discussion.
It is another matter though if the metagame as a whole has gotten less favorable, the rise of Weavile is a better reason to drop it down as it just a fodder to it no matter what and many of the best mons atm have little problems handling it so Mega Latias drop is certainly conceivable, I think this deserves more discussion.
Stuff we'll be voting / coming to an agreement on later in the coming days. I'm just using this post as a reference point to consolidate everything to pass on to various team members when I see them since we have two portions from discussion point and stuff I've seen here.
Mega Metagross: S > A+
Ferrothorn: A > A+
Rotom-W: A > A-
Celebi: A- > B+
Reuniclus: B+ > B
Feraligatr: B > B+
Serperior: A- > A
Infernape: B- > C+
Keldeo: A+ > S
Dragalge: B+ > B
Cobalion: C+ > B-
Magneton: C+ > B-
Tangrowth: B- > B/B+
Mega Aggron: C > C+
Gengar: A+ > A
Tentacruel: B > B-
Mega Ampharos: C > C+
Hippowdon: A > A+
Mega Diancie: A+ > A
Chesnaught: B- > C+
M-Gallade: B+ > B
Noivern: C- > D
Anything else I'll consider later as a discussion point such or in the case of stuff like Clefable and Raikou being nommed to move down won't be taken into consideration. Anything else discussed other than these will either be put as a discussion point later or not brought up at all during an update. Just stick with these for now and know they're discussion points more so than being set in stone which a lot of them aren't.
Mega Metagross: S > A+
Ferrothorn: A > A+
Rotom-W: A > A-
Celebi: A- > B+
Reuniclus: B+ > B
Feraligatr: B > B+
Serperior: A- > A
Infernape: B- > C+
Keldeo: A+ > S
Dragalge: B+ > B
Cobalion: C+ > B-
Magneton: C+ > B-
Tangrowth: B- > B/B+
Mega Aggron: C > C+
Gengar: A+ > A
Tentacruel: B > B-
Mega Ampharos: C > C+
Hippowdon: A > A+
Mega Diancie: A+ > A
Chesnaught: B- > C+
M-Gallade: B+ > B
Noivern: C- > D
Anything else I'll consider later as a discussion point such or in the case of stuff like Clefable and Raikou being nommed to move down won't be taken into consideration. Anything else discussed other than these will either be put as a discussion point later or not brought up at all during an update. Just stick with these for now and know they're discussion points more so than being set in stone which a lot of them aren't.
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Rotom-W checks a lot of important Pokemon, but the meta is past its high point with the washing machine... Rotom-W is often overloaded at times and gets worn down incredibly easily. Annoying Torn-T and Weavile is nice, but the opportunity cost for using Rotom-W is becoming more apparent, and a drop is warranted.
It goes either way. Its support capabilities are still as valuable as ever, but its defensive capabilities are not as pivotal now as they used to be.
I disagree. Keldeo has a lot going for it, but I always find it to be underwhelming... it is annoying for the opponent to face it due to Scald and Secret Sword, but when using it, you are very limited towards what you can actually do. LO RestTalk is apparently a thing but Keldeo is not as threatening as Zard X or Mega Altaria, even if it annoys the hell of the ever-so common Weavile.
Does this nom have to do with Weavile? Low Kick does over 70% to it, and no Weavile is actually going to stay in on a Cobalion unless it is to deal the finishing blow. Or is there another reason AM?
Manaphy and Kyurem-B are really good right now, and Gengar is declining from its high point as a wallbreaker with Alakazam, Torn-T, and Weavile all increasing in usage. A drop makes sense to me.
It's seen usage on teams as Fairy Check in a handful of Wcop games. Was being talked about in our convos so brought it here.
Just curious, but if Keldeo and Cobalion can both rise in response to Weavile being more popular, then why is Infernape being dropped? I know it's not that great, but with the defensive set being used a tad bit more, I thought it'd be enough to at least stay in B-.
I also believe Gengar should stay A+ because Clefable is still as popular as ever, and it's still hard to switch into. Ghost typing is really good, being only resisted by dark and immune by normal type (there's only Chansey, Mega Lopunny and Mega Pidgeot). It's one of the only poison types in OU (the other being Venusuar), and with fairies running around everywhere, it's pretty darn useful to have a fairy killer that isn't Scizor. Gengar is a really good immediate answer to Clefable, since it's able to 1HKO or at least have a decent chance to 1HKO it. I don't see why Gengar is suddenly less viable just because it can be revenge killed by new popular fast mons.
I also believe Gengar should stay A+ because Clefable is still as popular as ever, and it's still hard to switch into. Ghost typing is really good, being only resisted by dark and immune by normal type (there's only Chansey, Mega Lopunny and Mega Pidgeot). It's one of the only poison types in OU (the other being Venusuar), and with fairies running around everywhere, it's pretty darn useful to have a fairy killer that isn't Scizor. Gengar is a really good immediate answer to Clefable, since it's able to 1HKO or at least have a decent chance to 1HKO it. I don't see why Gengar is suddenly less viable just because it can be revenge killed by new popular fast mons.
on mobile so gonna keep this short
Hippowdon to A+
from personal experience this things been pretty good at soft checking pretty much every physical that can't hit it for super effective damage. Hippo is also REALLY splashable compared to fat chomp and landot. But a ton of threats come in on it with nothing to fear which is a problem. Despite that hippo is pretty good so a+ is pretty fitting.
Mega metagross to a+
eh its weird seeing one of faces of ou being nomed to drop. Incredible stat distribution and powerful coverage moves. But right now hippo and fat chomp are everywhere including m scizor which are a huge problem for gross. Hurts me to say this but until the meta leans more towards offense gross should be A+.
Cobalion to B-:
Nommed it a few pages back so that's what I think of it.
Serperior to A:
Serps perfectly fine in A-. Nothings really changed for it.
Ferrothorn to A+:
Ferro is really good right now. Hazard stacking is really good these days. Ferro is the best setter of spikes in the game simply put. Also has fantastic typing in the meta. Actually been seeing more rain pop up and he handles rain teams pretty well.
good wall should be a+.
Fabio mega ampharos to C+:
Great defensive pivot that's really annoying to take down. Walls rotom and talon as well as a few other high ranked mons. Also has 360 special attack univested which makes it pretty hard to stay in on. also his hair makes people click x.
Feraligatr to b+:
This things a monster in uu and its pretty good right now in ou. Its one of few physical offensive water types and is pretty powerful and get aqua jet. b+ is well deserved if you ask me.
Tangagrowth to b\b+:
I like this mon quite a bit. Great keldeo check. Pretty difficult to switch into with leaf storm,eq,hp fire and knock off. Gets regen which is really nice for a av user. Also not passive which is nice. This things better then amoongus so I'm surprised its ranked as low as it is. A rise is long overdue.
this this was hard writing on a phone. -_-
Hippowdon to A+
from personal experience this things been pretty good at soft checking pretty much every physical that can't hit it for super effective damage. Hippo is also REALLY splashable compared to fat chomp and landot. But a ton of threats come in on it with nothing to fear which is a problem. Despite that hippo is pretty good so a+ is pretty fitting.
Mega metagross to a+
eh its weird seeing one of faces of ou being nomed to drop. Incredible stat distribution and powerful coverage moves. But right now hippo and fat chomp are everywhere including m scizor which are a huge problem for gross. Hurts me to say this but until the meta leans more towards offense gross should be A+.
Cobalion to B-:
Nommed it a few pages back so that's what I think of it.
Serperior to A:
Serps perfectly fine in A-. Nothings really changed for it.
Ferrothorn to A+:
Ferro is really good right now. Hazard stacking is really good these days. Ferro is the best setter of spikes in the game simply put. Also has fantastic typing in the meta. Actually been seeing more rain pop up and he handles rain teams pretty well.
good wall should be a+.
Great defensive pivot that's really annoying to take down. Walls rotom and talon as well as a few other high ranked mons. Also has 360 special attack univested which makes it pretty hard to stay in on. also his hair makes people click x.
Feraligatr to b+:
This things a monster in uu and its pretty good right now in ou. Its one of few physical offensive water types and is pretty powerful and get aqua jet. b+ is well deserved if you ask me.
Tangagrowth to b\b+:
I like this mon quite a bit. Great keldeo check. Pretty difficult to switch into with leaf storm,eq,hp fire and knock off. Gets regen which is really nice for a av user. Also not passive which is nice. This things better then amoongus so I'm surprised its ranked as low as it is. A rise is long overdue.
this this was hard writing on a phone. -_-
With Knock Off and Pursuit being everywhere and the rise of Kyube which hit it with Earth Power for SE Damage. It have a hard time too be really good. Steel is just a better type than Poison overall so it kinda sees more usage to stop fairys.
Cobalion shouldn't rise. It's just so underwhelming and piss weak to do anything in OU. I tried using it as a Bisharp counter and Weavile check, but it needs Chople to avoid getting bodied by Low Kick and is thus easily worn down. And if the opponent doesn't have Bisharp/Scizor I found it is complete deadweight. Its just so weak that it really can't do anything but wall Bisharp. Even if it switches into a Knock Off what usually happens is the opponent switches into Hippo/Lando-T/Latias/Tflame/Thundy/Gliscor/Slowbro/Starmie/ anything else with some form of bulk, Cobalion does 0 to the switch in even at +1, and is forced out. It's fine in C+
the problem I have with this is that of course cobalions not touch the mind you mentioned. Itas main goal is to absorb knock offs and check fairy types. Of it's not hitting land or hippo. Besides you can even run a sd set with dual stab with hp ice if you really want cobal to hit them on the switch(chompers and landot)
Sorry for spelling on mobile
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