NOC Fire and Ice Mafia: Fire and Ice tie, the village loses.

[Yeti]

Alright, my notes are back up to date. Thankfully Hannahh has been subbed and acidphoenix and Haunted Diamond both gave us some actual reads. The endless blank spaces are clearing!

This leaves ButteredToast and PokeguyNXB who both only have 3 discernible interactions with other people in the game. Two of those overlap (Gale and US) and the other of note being BT ok with a HD lynch. Look man I'm sorry if you think I am too harsh and rude in my call-outs but you leave me with 0 content to go on. If you are town, never interacting with other people and even mentioning their names TO give reads is such a hindrance. IF YOU ARE TOWN, we cannot take your insights into account. We can't understand how you feel about someone suspicion onto you, or your reads. And we can't see who tries to bus you for your content, or who suspects you and why. We can only see people growing increasingly suspicious of your annoying, stalling non-content posts which rehash "I can't scumhunt woe is me" which really is not that informative. And if you are mafia your partner must be super annoyed that you cannot put in the effort to even try and fake a town-perspective read post.
Post. Some. Reads. That's what we are asking. We don't want excuses, we don't want "I need an adult to tell me who's a good lynch," we don't want "this isn't how another site works I don't want to be lynched..." YOU ARE GOING TO GET LYNCHED IF YOU KEEP THIS UP. I can tell you that. We need to see some input and some interactions to start forming relationships. At the moment you two are both devoid of content relating to your fellow players. Smogon NOC does have a different meta and we operate differently from other communities and sites. But, we are being pretty forthcoming in what we expect and want to see from you. Nobody is keeping their desired contributions a secret, you're repeatedly told what we'd like to see. So, try it and put some effort in. Even if your reads suck, they are a start we can work off.
If you don't intend to try, and only want to keep making non-content "I can't scumhunt lolz" why did you sign up for a NOC? That is all the game is, especially on Smogon. Sorry to be blunt about it. I would like to see some contributions from you guys as I don't necessarily want to demand people are subbed, but I also don't want a chunk of the game to hide behind excuses and never participate.

UncleSam has been pretty knee-jerky. imo he overreacts when he is attacked. He seems almost too sensitive to be a villager. Shouldn't he feel more comfortable in the role PM he got saying Town? Every time someone confronts him or calls him out he goes on the aggressive and will change his read as well. It's like he has too much to prove he's town because he knows he's mafia. But. He is a pretty aggressive player and likes to trumpet himself around so this may just be his natural village stance. Hard to say.

acidphoenix and Haunted Diamond have both finally given posts. Gale Wing Srock has also calmed down and made some genuine contributions and reads. Regardless of if they are scum or not, at least we have that information for future days/after they flip. I maintain there is probably one scum in the bandwagon, maybe two (in the 5 total), but I do think we will need to look elsewhere for the rest.

Da Letter El drop in contributions has me wary. Got me suspicious on u.

Celever what do you think of UncleSam and Spiffy? Reads on them?

 

[Wayan Vistar]

So.. Epicmafia has been a NEGATIVE influence on my gameplay? Okay... seriously if you want me to contribute more, fine, i'l go back to my old ways. But if more people from other sites come here, i blame you guys when they think i'm scum more often.

*rereads thread*

Well... crap. I don't agree with anything presented here... what do i do now? Everything has a defense, and NONE of these defenses seem fake to me, even though my brain knows that some of them inevitably are... an RVS this late would be scummy as hell... umm.... pressure vote person who hasn't posted for the longest amount of time? Lynch Da Letter El

 

[Yeti]

Well... crap. I don't agree with anything presented here...

Why not? It is 100% fine to disagree (unless you disagree with UncleSam then he gets up in your nuts) but we are so very eager to see the reasoning behind why you disagree.

 

[The Diabolic Gift]

TIK has requested a sub.
Ultrasplot will be in shortly.

 

[Spiffy]

Spiffy, the point is if I think UncleSam is mafia, and he doesnt agree with my reasoning on the mafia lynching the other mafia day 1 and trying to get rid of them as soon as possible, then I cant go with a lynch by someone who i think is scum who doesnt believe this because that means in my mind hes trying to go for a villager.

1. I don't think it's really a good idea to filter your opinions through the assumption that someone still alive is mafia. Especially on Day 1 when we have no flips to work off of. It's why I don't really think buddying is really a scumtell (plus people use that term incorrectly pretty often). Speculating about scumteams is useless this early on and we should be evaluating everyone individually.
2. Even if you are assuming UncleSam is scum, why do you assume he is being truthful about how the mafia should play the game? Why would UncleScum lie about his true thoughts and try to lynch a villager, but be truthful when discussing a mafia's game plan? There's a lapse in logic here.

But since he's subbing out now apparently I'll never get an answer...

On his attack of UncleSam he brings up the points already made as well as some new ones, but both of them ignore the other's points in the spat.

So I read spiffy's posts (and sam's answers to him) as promised. He starts his first post by a legit attack on Sam on why he acted that way in the beginning of the game, calling it scummy. Sam responds by saying something like 'no it was not scummy at all, prove it to me.' but then spiffy says 'everyone please notice how sam is being illogical! but anyway i'm gonna drop this cuz we have inactive players to lynch.'

So a lot of people, not just you guys, have been misunderstanding (or intentionally misrepresenting!?!?) my case against UncleSam and hopefully this will clear it up. I have said since literally my first post that my main problem with him was how often he feels the need to state how obviously town he is and take credit for things (as well as quite recently lashing out against everyone that questions him). It shouldn't matter who started the discussion. Why does he LONG for the credit? I even cited a recent game in which a maflord vonFiedler did the same thing. Since then I have realized the possibility that this could just be how he is in NOC and not necessarily indicative of alignment, and have cooled off.
acidphoenix first off I don't really think these points were made or pursued by anyone. Plus I was subbed in and it is really only natural that some things I said had been voiced before anyway. Second, please cite the post(s) of his that I ignored. I read all of them, and each one had convinced me more and more that I was on the right track.
Haunted Diamond here is how UncleSam represented my argument:

He basically says 'yes all your play thus far is village but the fact that you think you are village makes me suspicious of you' which has got to be one of the dumbest arguments against someone I've ever heard.

Please tell me how this is even remotely similar to my case against him stated above.

His next posts include a read on how celever has been playing differently from the last games where he'd been illogical (but Celever is being as illogical this game, look at post 206 for example where he dismisses my arguments against him as simply wrong).

I will respond to this by analyzing your case against Celever because I don't think he has been illogical.

Celever: Starts the day with saying a bunch of useless stuff and trying to be friendly which he did all over in the last noc game. When I pressured him to see how he responds, he got super defensive and launched a counter attacked on me.

Like Celever mentioned, you "pressured him" by saying he was acting like his mafia self when he onlky had three posts, all of which were in conversation with the host other than the RVS. So I believe his lynch vote against you is justified.

But what really makes me sure to want to lynch for him is: 1- His passive-supportive attitude towards Sam, my second suspect which makes me think they're a team 2- His defensive attitude throughout the thread 3- Most importantly, he just seems to be arguing for the sake of looking cool and not actually trying to be contributive. 4-When I attacked him, instead of trying to reason with me he tried to exploit my inactivity and noobishness to just drive the attentions on me.

1 is pretty ridiculous and based on a bold assumption, 2 holds no weight without evidence and something I don't really see myself, 3 is fine, 4 I just proved wrong. So sorry if I'm not convinced. I think Celever was doing fine in the beginning, but I agree that ever since his Gale argument he hasn't shared his reads or anything that helpful.

I really want to lynch Pokeguy but Dale is being annoyingly absent so I'll keep my vote.

(These always end up longer than I intend them to be sorry!)

 

[Celever]

Celever what do you think of UncleSam and Spiffy? Reads on them?

UncleSam: Well, as I've been saying all along I think that UncleSam is probably town. Over the course of the day this read has slowly weakened and other people (particularly Spiffy) have brought up interesting points but he's still leaning town for me. Leaning Town.

Spiffy: Also yeah I just realised that I haven't shared my thoughts on Spiffy at all, so good thing you asked. Spiffy has replaced TIK as my strongest town read, actually. He's subbed in and suddenly contributed a lot, but importantly he's been rather non-aggressive, which I actually think is important when it comes to Spiffy. I'm thinking back to Mario Kart NOC which was, admittedly, over 2 years ago, and how Spiffy played as mafia in that game. I noticed that he actually played similarly to how I did in the last NOC where I was scum, which was targeting one or two easy lynches and scummy players and riding their wagons out until they were lynched, while being non-contributive elsewhere so as to not help the village too much. Spiffy is playing nothing like that now and his posts are all very logical and make a lot of sense. Strongest Town Read

But then again Spiffy did just defend me in the above post so I guess that makes us a mafia scum team going by some of the stellar logic we've seen this game!!

ALSO I think this is a point that needs to be said. We all agree that there was probably one or two mafia on US' wagon, right? And generally we're choosing those players from HD, acidphoenix and Gale. HD and acidphoenix are now the two players voting for me and trying to push a wagon on me, as you've seen in their recent posts. I'd like to say that it isn't this easy, but both of these players are inexperienced, and so maybe it really is this easy...

Gale Wing Srock asked me before to say why I think HD is a better lynch than Gale. Because you're a slight townread to me Gale? You're incredibly difficult to read as others have said before which is why I've gone from town to scum to town but all in all this game is your town meta. Really hyper and panicky when you don't really know what's going on and then calmer when you think you have some good ideas (unless no one listens to you in which case you go all hyper again). Plus, we're not going to garner much information from your lynch really, and I think that at this stage it will be detrimental to lynch you over other players because of it. Day 2 some of the newer players will undoubtedly try and force scum connections between the various people who have argued with you and lynched you or whatever today if you do end up getting lynched, and I feel this will steer town discussion down the wrong path tomorrow. With Haunted Diamond a few of us have shared very definite viewpoints (if he's scum look at acidphoenix, if he's town look at me) and so it will at the very least create some healthy discussion tomorrow. Obviously it's not stalwart read because it's Day 1 and nothing we have said today is, but at the very least lynching HD will help us along tomorrow and not create another day of lost and hopeless townies arguing. Gathering info from lynches is especially important in this sort of game, since our only Power Role is a doctor.

Da Letter El: Also I should share my thoughts on DLE because I don't think I've done that yet either. But... there's nothing to share reads on him about. I just want to point out that I don't think his inactivity is indicative of alignment at all, because he's fallen pretty inactive in a couple NOC games I've played closely with him in unexpectedly. It's a real shame that one of our most experienced players might be subbed out, though. Or good if he's scum, I guess. Neutral.

 

[ButteredToast]

Yeti : Like I said, there isn't a problem to what you are asking, it is the way you are asking things. If I am not playing up to your expectations of your ideal player, I'm sorry I guess, but this is how I am choosing to play it to this point. If you want to be grumpy with me, then that is fine but you're really not doing me any favors by the very asshole way you are coming off in asking me very simple things. Cut the sass, cut the insults, and if you want something from me don't fucking try and degrade me. Especially when you obviously don't get where the hell I am coming from. This is the second time I am going to ask you to calm down and to be a little bit more respectful. Disagree with me and call me out all you want, but don't do it with the insults of snotty pubescent pre-teen.

This being said, if people are looking for more content from me, I can try my best to give my thoughts to the game this far again in a more clear fashion more in the lines of what you want. I am not always the best communicator of thoughts and can try to give them in a different way to make them a bit more clear. I am going to try to write as much as I can about my thoughts in a very stream of conscious way to try and break that barrier, so bare with me. Or just fucking ignore this and complain about walls of text.

I do not have reads for the game right now because we do not have enough developments for me to draw upon. Sure, there are suspicions I have and guy feelings, but these can change anytime that someone posts in a thread or I read something a different way. These thoughts are erratic right now and I see no good to post them and get plastered on them because they are weak and unproven. I'm really not going to budge much on this, but if anyone wants to ask me on a specific person or event I can go through my very strange thought process and give you a reason as to why I am lost regarding their behavior. To a larger extent, I will try and do that now. This DOES NOT mean I am not scum hunting, it just means that the developments to this point are too shit for me to come up with a better idea of people, as while I see some strategy behind them, I can't tie the strategy to being village or mafia.

I have pretty much come up with three main stages of day one. The first is the shit with the DLE post with the inspector, the reaction by Sam, and discussions around this. The second development is the bandwagon of Sam following these discussions. The third is the turning on the bandwagoners and a kind of secondary bandwagon on Gale.

The first development I see as something none other than experienced players trying to play a game of king of the mountain for control. In the games I have observed, Uncle Sam likes (needs?) control of games no matter what side he is on. I also am very aware that people understand this and try to kind of keep power from his hands because it is dangerous. This whole thing and it's developments is pretty much a meaningless power struggle in an NOC game where there is no control of information and where there should be a power vacuum because people should not be following anyone. Wanting power in this game means nothing in terms of discovering alignment as village would want power to lead and the mafia would want power to manipulate. As we have said, the mafia is scum hunting just as much as the village and while they dont want to kill them straight up per ce, they do need to know who they are. So I get nothing from this entire thing because it's all just very egotistic games telling me very little. I see Sam trying to discredit DLE to gain a leadership foothold, and TIK and others trying to knock Sam down from the foothold. But this whole thing tells me nothing, especially when I have to look at not only what is happening but also through in a total guess as to if I feel like this thing is kind of improvised mafia play.

The second development is probably the best development just because it is pretty dumb, but it still tells me relatively nothing. I have played one NOC game before, and even I know that you don't climb on the damned bandwagon without making public case, and you sure as hell don't vote on it and push for a lynch so early in the deadline. HD, Acid, and Gale all kind of fucked up here. Acid is probably use to playing showdown mafia in which things happen at a far faster pace. Not an excuse but something to think about before labeling Acid a dumb mafia member. I'm okay with a HauntedDiamond lynch because I played with him in Fallout when he was mafia and he did the same strategy during day 1 and kind of got away with it even though he was called out on it, so he might very well do the same damned thing again. However, as also evident in the Fallout game and his mafia conversation there, he made a lot of mistakes and misplays and this might just be him being a poorish player regardless of alignment. Gale also knows better than to jump on this and was dumb for doing so. I don't buy his "caught up in the moment" excuse or whatever apology thing about being too aggressive because going for a quick day 1 lynch isn't aggressive. It's just detrimental. Like Spiffy said he should know better, and also his play prior to that explanation feels more organized and slow than aggressive and caught up in the moment.

I'm more okay with voting people in the second development than I am the first. I see the Sam bandwagon catching a dumb mafia player more than I see going for leadership or throwing doubt at potential leaders giving any insight. If you were wondering why I would be okay voting with Haunted Diamond, it is because he seems to be playing the same exact game as last time when he was mafia. And because he kind of got away with it the last time, I don't see him changing. Is he more mafia than anyone else? I don't know. But he is a decent vote and he fulfills the requirement of not being me.

The Gale bandwagon is the third development, and it pretty much comes to me as villagers jumping at bad play and because it doesnt make sense, it must be a mafia tactic to break up conversation or save their own skin or whatever the hell arguments were meant to be used. The thing is, mafia should be acting like village and scum hunting right now too and need as much info and the hope for slip ups as the other group. Regardless if the bandwagon on Sam formed by village or mafia, it was still a misplay. I get why you pressure people in the bandwagon. I get why people kind of bandwagon on the bandwagoners, because I sort of am. However in the grand scheme of things, it's more picking apart the weakest links the same as going after Sam and DLE is picking apart the (perceived) strongest links.

That's all I fucking got right now. It doesn't really do much in the way that I feel people are telling me to take stances, but things are not black and white to me and everyone is existing in questionable greyness that get lighter or darker depending on whatever mood or viewpoint I decide to look at things at this moment. I do not have strong feelings about what the developments of the game show us right now in terms of alignment and I question those who do have strong feelings because I don't feel you should based on my interpretation of the facts.

Explanation over. I'm going to bed.

 

[Celever]

This is NOTHING like how BT played in his last (and apparently only other) NOC game so he's definitely a scum read for me rn.

 

[Celever]

Also you didn't mention me or HD in that post anywhere, depsite us being fairly higj profile characters today. Thoughts on us?

 

[Spiffy]

Celever idk I seem to remember ButteredToast having a similar philosophy in the very early phases of Fallout. But the difference here is that he amplified it a lot more this time around and is a lot less tolerating of people badgering him about it which kind of makes me wary. Also read more almost the entirety of the second development involves Haunted Diamond.

ButteredToast overall that post was pretty insightful as to where your head is at. Your second development in particular portrayed your thoughts pretty well. The issue is that I don't why you were so reluctant to contribute to this level. You also reacted pretty strongly to what I thought was a pretty tame call out from Yeti, which makes me think you might be intentionally playing the victim?

 

[Haunted Diamond]

I'm gonna expand my reads.

Yeti: Seems to give good evaluation on how the game is progressing and how people are acting, but doesn't really say anything meaningful on who or what she finds scummy. This level of neutrality and safeness kinda alarms me.

Butteredtoast: Seems to be a little defensive and insecure. Explains his point of view after people pinned him down in a big wall of text that doesn't really change anything...could be a mafia trying to look town or a villager tired of too much pressure.

Celever is playing cooler and less defensive now but I'm not gonna retract my vote only because his first reactions to my pressure was too weird.

Gonna read into acidpheonix tonight, also it'd be really nice to hear something from DLE!

 

[UltrasPlot]

Hello! New to Smogon Mafia, but some of you may have seen me on PS!

Will be reading the thread and posting reads et al. soon-ish.

EDIT: Slight scum on UncleSam - that whole joke post thing

Somewhat scum on Gale - pushing the US wagon and liberal use of ad hominem

Slight town on Yeti

Slight scum on HD

Neutral on everyone else until i hear more

Interesting to note is that Dle has disappeared for the last couple of pages... trying to draw attention off himself?

 

[Celever]

Haunted Diamond if you couldn't vote for me, who would your lynch vote be on right now?

 

[The Diabolic Gift]

Hello! New to Smogon Mafia, but some of you may have seen me on PS!

Will be reading the thread and posting reads et al. soon-ish.

EDIT: Slight scum on UncleSam - that whole joke post thing

Somewhat scum on Gale - pushing the US wagon and liberal use of ad hominem

Slight town on Yeti

Slight scum on HD

Neutral on everyone else until i hear more

Interesting to note is that Dle has disappeared for the last couple of pages... trying to draw attention off himself?

For Future Reference: You May Not Edit Your Posts.

 

[ButteredToast]

Celever I played a similar structure in Fallout, but I made some mistakes in there in reference to being totally off base on everyone else in the mafia but HauntedDiamond. My tone was different and I played an active role, but we had less experienced players and I didn't waste a day early on and have to play catchup. But if you want to go look, people got on me for not voting and I didn't want to give a lot of reads. If it feels like I'm playing differently it is because I am trying to not make the mistakes of last game happen again.

I mentioned Haunted Diamond plenty during that like Spiffy said. You seem just to be as all over the place as you did in the other game, so I really don't have much thoughts on you right now. I don't find Sam to be scummy, just wanting to be in control. Most arguments on you are connecting you to Sam, which is a weak argument beings that we have to assume that 1) Sam is mafia and 2) you are his partner shadowing him. And because I don't see Sam as being mafia, I see no case on you right now.

Spiffy It was a tame call out in what she was asking for, but the way she went about it was rude. While I don't need anyone to treat me like a friend, if you were going to call me out, at least treat me with a bit of respect. All I am asking for is to tone down on the disparaging bullshit, because it is unnecessary to the points she is making. I'm not victimizing myself and her points were/are somewhat valid. And I responded to her and others echoing the same sentiments the best way I could.

I haven't contributed to that kind of level because at first I was still reading over things and second because my thoughts on previous events doesn't really move us forward. What I did is probably a bit more of a good summary towards deadline than it is trying to build momentum. I really can't react to things as they were happening, mostly because they already happened before I got settled. Piss poor excuse, but tried to explain after horrendous weekend that my contributions were going to be slow because my thoughts were very fluid, very circular in nature, and that based on the set up and the developments I see things as being games of chance. I just think I didn't explain myself well, as I think people just took away that I didn't want to try or refused to play a part in the game. Regardless, I should be contributing more up to pace from here on out.

Also spiffy, who the hell is Dale? Assuming an auto correct of DLE?

 

[Celever]

Celever I played a similar structure in Fallout, but I made some mistakes in there in reference to being totally off base on everyone else in the mafia but HauntedDiamond. My tone was different and I played an active role, but we had less experienced players and I didn't waste a day early on and have to play catchup. But if you want to go look, people got on me for not voting and I didn't want to give a lot of reads. If it feels like I'm playing differently it is because I am trying to not make the mistakes of last game happen again.

The problem is the tone being totally off. You've calmed down a little bit, but that post was very angry for really little-to-no reason, and that was more what I meant.

There is never any harm done by being active, though. No excuses for that.

I mentioned Haunted Diamond plenty during that like Spiffy said. You seem just to be as all over the place as you did in the other game, so I really don't have much thoughts on you right now. I don't find Sam to be scummy, just wanting to be in control. Most arguments on you are connecting you to Sam, which is a weak argument beings that we have to assume that 1) Sam is mafia and 2) you are his partner shadowing him. And because I don't see Sam as being mafia, I see no case on you right now.

Fair enough, makes sense. You really have a totally neutral stance on me? Not leaning either way?

Also spiffy, who the hell is Dale? Assuming an auto correct of DLE?

Spiffy says Dale instead of DLE. Admittedly it's a far superior shortening of his name, but I just use DLE through habit.

 

[The Diabolic Gift]

Be Active.

 

[Spiffy]

Yeah sorry I have like three names for DLE/Da Letter El/Dale that I use interchangeably.

Haunted Diamond why didn't you respond to my post that addressed you? I think a natural village reaction to someone that questions them is to do their best to explain their thought process. Instead you actively ignored it (I tagged AND quoted you so I know you saw...) and chose to "expand your reads" which looks like busy work to seem active to me.

Walrein UltrasPlot please explain the reads that you haven't done so for. Also say other things.

The Diabolic Gift I think the best way to get people to talk is to set a deadline. And can you prod Da Letter El because he hasn't posted in over 48 hours.

Right now I think the only lynches I'd support are Haunted Diamond, PokeguyNXB, and Da Letter El. WHAT DO UncleSam acidphoenix Gale Wing Srock Cancerous AND EVERYONE ELSE THINK?!?!?!?!?

 

[UncleSam]

Honestly I'm not surprised that the instant I stopped responding to everything and trying to prod people/start discussion things just die. Sigh.

My position is pretty clear on this lynch. I think Haunted Diamond is the best option, though I like the Gale/Acidphoenix options as well. I agree that Pokeguy has been a horrible poster recently so I'd be ok with a lynch on him as well. I think DLE could be an option if he continues to refuse to post but given we learn more about him than most if he survives the night I think that lynching him Day 1 would be a bit of a waste. So ya.

 

[Cancerous]

You heard the bossman. Activity Activated.
...
I got nothing.
Oh wait.

I realize I have been neglecting to look into the gale bandwagon.
Members of Gale train: BT(RVS), US, acidphoenix, TIK (is now Ulatrasplot), Celever, gale (while quoting TIK without actually use quote function)

Also putting it here for reference:
Members of US train: TIK (is now Ulatrasplot), Da letters AFK, Haunted Shadow, Gale, acidphoenix

What do you guys think about the possibility of a maf riding the second bandwagon? The case against US was mild, but the case against gale was pretty justified, so the more experienced scum might jump on it.

BT was RVS so he's off, gale failed to use quote tag, it was hillarious.

Looking at

Celever who put gale on L-2. Citing Appeal to emotion. There were some arguments raised about it that ultimately become something like an urban dictionary entry. This vote however felt off to me.
Celever have been witnessing gale's meta in other games as much as I do. You knew gale was hyper, then it shouldn't be a surprise to you that he start doing the "shrug kill me you're wrong but I give up" maneuver. Why did it compel you to lynch him. It looked like that you saw gale digging his own grave and jumped on it.

And acidphoenix were presented at both lynches. My statement of his noobiness is now null as I come to learn the existence of showdown mafia.

I also think we can start deciding on who to really lynch once a deadline is given. For now most comfortable lynch become: acid phoenix, da letters AFK

 

[ButteredToast]

What do you guys think about the possibility of a maf riding the second bandwagon? The case against US was mild, but the case against gale was pretty justified, so the more experienced scum might jump on it.

With the two mafia system in place, I think that the mafia will be acting very close to villagers right now, as everyone has for the most part the same amount of goals. Yes, the two mafias do not want to totally eliminate the other side right away, but they would like to weaken each other early. So the experienced mafias are going to scum hunt right now with the experienced villagers as they are sharing the same kind of goal for today. And obviously the goals of scum is to blend in with villagers anyways.

This makes it very hard to look at something and declare someone being mafia or village Day 1 because of this. For example, it would be a mistake to go into the Sam bandwagon if you were mafia AND village. And the only way I can feel slightly comfortable in setting those three band wagoners apart from the rest is because they might be misinterpreting what should be their strategy in addition to their poor play in executing that strategy craftily.

As a result of these blurred lines, the answer to your question from me Cancerous is yes. There is a distinct chance that the experienced mafia(s) are riding the second bandwagon IF Gale isn't their partner. If Gale was, they would say how bad it looks, but opt for another one of the three because of other reasons. However there is the same chance that a villager would come see/become convinced that Gale is the most suspicious and latch onto the lynch for legitimate reasons. So really... we get nowhere.

I also don't see much of a change to this village/mafia mirroring each other UNTIL one of the mafia is killed off. Then, if we take Sam's thought pattern about the mafia wanting the other side alive to pick off some villagers, then the mafia with the larger numbers will act in a different manner than the villagers as they might try to get the vote on someone they don't suspect of being mafia instead of someone they do suspect.

 

[Ampharos]

Regarding user Da Letter El: I don't really understand the rationale behind "this guy's been AFK, let's lynch him!" On the one hand, it could be the sign of a lazy mafioso not wanting to contribute, yes. On the other hand, there's a difference between actually being AFK and active lurking (being here but not posting or posting trivial bullshit), and I feel DLE's absence has been the former. My main point, however, is that whether or not he's mafia, he's had very few interactions with other users, and thus lynching him will give us very little information, and while it's still a good lynch if he's mafia, I don't feel strongly enough about his alignment to be able to condone that sort of shot in the dark.

Regarding user ButteredToast: The wall of text he posted further up this page bothers me; not because any of his arguments/logic is inherently wrong, per se (though his arguments were certainly nothing new and original), but with how damned nonconfrontational it was. In my experience it's a pretty big scumtell when people are trying their damnedest to not piss anyone off and look like the friendly guy to anyone. BT, if you think Gale/Celever/acid/whoever is mafia, call them the fuck out on it! Make them argue the point with you, so you can dismantle their argument and prove them to be the scum you know they are! If you can't do that, it says a lot about your own motivations: are you really trying to help, or are you just trying to look like it?

Regarding user Haunted Diamond: Jeez dude seems like you roll scum every other game rofl. I don't like the fact that the only time his posts have any sort of depth or detail are when he's directly called out by another user - his "reads" further up on this page, for example, are a series of empty platitudes. His posts are longer when he gets called out, but they're still mostly fluff. Again, he's contributing-but-not-really like a lot of the people on this list.

Regarding user Celever: He's playing with an uncharacteristic amount of vitriol this game. Last time I encountered someone this abrasive, it was Metal Sonic (I think in Mario Kart Mafia?) and he was most definitely scum. He's been wasting a lot of time getting tied up in pointless arguments with other players, which is not the sort of thing that Celever usually does. I also like how in post #231 he comments on people trying to ride out the easy wagon and ignoring other players, then immediately turns around and cashes in on some free "yea HD and acid are clearly bad lol" karma.

Regarding user acidphoenix: I'm having trouble getting much of a read on him tbh. The most condemning things against him IMO are the fact that outside of his 1 list of reads, all of his posts have been pretty much empty, and said list of reads seems to me to be hastily thrown together and have weak logic (calling people out on buddying is an exercise in futility until we have some cardflips to go off of, and the TIK reasoning is actually laughable), ALONGSIDE that one weird day 1 post where he said the mafia's best plan was to kill 1 of the other dudes, which if I was a paranoid man I might call an attempt to coordinate with the other mafia.

note: my philosophy is that town reads should be mentioned, but it's generally not a great idea to go too much into detail about why they're a town read because A. it tells the scum who to kill and B. it tells the scum how to blend in

My town read on user UncleSam is almost entirely based on the fact that he's playing exactly like he does when he's village. Make of that what you will.

Yeti's been doing a good job of sparking discussion.

Upon further review I'm switching my read on Spiffy to slight town for a combination of the above reasons, though I'm less confident on this than I am on the above two users.

I thought TIK was posting in a generally towny way but I'm reserving the right to change my opinion once his sub posts more.

Gale's logic is bad but he's fucking impossible to read rofl

Cancerous is contributing enough that I don't instantly think he's scum but not enough for me to actually get a strong read on him

And PokeguyNXB most recent post is so laughable that I don't even know where to start. I'm pretty sure "Appeal to Epicmafia" is like 12 logical fallacies where mafia is concerned - I should know, that's where I got my start! And then he flat-out refuses to give an opinion on anyone. Again. Holy shit.

My vote's staying, though at this stage I'd also be willing to lynch (in descending order) ButteredToast, Celever, acidphoenix, Haunted Diamond

There's probably someone I forgot to mention in this post but this is already long enough

 

[Spiffy]

Walrein what made me a scumread to you before?

 

[Ampharos]

I honestly couldn't tell you; it was more gut than anything else.

 

[Gale Wing Srock]

Day 2 some of the newer players will undoubtedly try and force scum connections between the various people who have argued with you and lynched you or whatever today if you do end up getting lynched, and I feel this will steer town discussion down the wrong path tomorrow. With Haunted Diamond a few of us have shared very definite viewpoints (if he's scum look at acidphoenix, if he's town look at me) and so it will at the very least create some healthy discussion tomorrow. Obviously it's not stalwart read because it's Day 1 and nothing we have said today is, but at the very least lynching HD will help us along tomorrow and not create another day of lost and hopeless townies arguing. Gathering info from lynches is especially important in this sort of game, since our only Power Role is a doctor.

Da Letter El: Also I should share my thoughts on DLE because I don't think I've done that yet either. But... there's nothing to share reads on him about. I just want to point out that I don't think his inactivity is indicative of alignment at all, because he's fallen pretty inactive in a couple NOC games I've played closely with him in unexpectedly. It's a real shame that one of our most experienced players might be subbed out, though. Or good if he's scum, I guess. Neutral.

Something about the bolded lines give me the feeling of scum. The way he refers to our discussion tomorrow in the third person, Which also seems like an anchor post about discussion going on the wrong path tomorrow, and then He immediately follows with the line (If he's town look at me). Kind of like saying, that you are free to look at me tomorrow, but we will probably have a discussion going on the wrong path tomorrow. @_@

Although DLE's inactivity may / may not be indicative of alignment. Being non-active means that we are at a disadvantage on his reads and mind set. Kind of a safe play here, while trying to get DLE to contribute / trying to brush DLE's inactivity under the rug?

Celever what do you think of ButteredToast and his perspective of this game and Day 1?

Right now I think the only lynches I'd support are Haunted Diamond, PokeguyNXB, and Da Letter El. WHAT DO UncleSam acidphoenix Gale Wing Srock Cancerous AND EVERYONE ELSE THINK?!?!?!?!?

I honestly dunno who would be the right lynch today. My gut feeling says UncleSam, Celever, DLE or BT. But the points made on HD and Pokeguy are pretty logical.

HD seems to be trying to build some reads, but his reads all seem too be too shallow. Pokeguy, doesn't even bother putting up reads, although folks have mentioned that he played differently in NOC mafia where he was trying to learn and understand the game's progression. I feel that Pokeguy is trying to play down on his part, and that he is a good player (Or he wouldn't have caught Von in the last game). But does it warrant a Lynch on him? I am not sure.

I want to build a case on UncleSam, Celever, DLE and BT to be able to reduce / increase my scum read on them, so that I am more comfortable with an HD / Pokeguy Lynch.

But tbh, if we consider the mafia team to have one experienced player and one new player, then I would rather that we lynch an experienced player early on. Because the new player would eventually give us enough slips to be able to clearly Lynch him. Whereas, the experienced players usually get better as the game goes on? (Atleast, that is what I think)

In that regard, let me vote on UncleSam while I build a case on him (Even if it is too early to build a case on someone, I still want to give it a shot). Because building a case usually helps me see one person's play in more detail.

Lynch UncleSam