Serious Greeks essentially declare themselves Bankrupt-- where do they and Europe go from here?

Chou Toshio

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Don't compare US interactions between economy and politics to those interactions in other countries, especially not to parliamentary countries. In the US, no it doesn't affect the economy much based on who is in charge. In parliamentary governments, it undoubtedly does. I don't think what Deck Knight said was so horrifically wrong, in the proper context. I'm sure he also believes it to be true for the US (which lol he'd be wrong...) but in this case, let it be.
I also wasn't necessarily saying that it was wrong, so much as ironically pointing out that modern Republicans also do it wrong (modern Republicans aren't really advocates of "disciplined small government"-- they're more "huge government, huge debt, here's some tax cuts to make us look good lolz". But then, I don't think DK is much of a Bush guy either.

I also agree with your POV on Greece-- it's not that they're spending too much, but that they're terrible at collecting.
 
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Deck Knight

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Hey, don't look at this guy for a defense of Bush and co's profligate spending.
Remember, my choice in that election was Dubya or freakin' John Kerry - possibly the only guy on earth who is a worse negotiator than Tsipras (I GIV MULLAHS NUKES 4 NOBLE PLZ PRIZE!)

I will argue the whole "US banking had zero regulation hurf durf" is absolute bullshit no one should take seriously. Ever heard of Sarbanes-Oxley?

In fact the regulations demanding that banks lend to people who would not otherwise qualify to be lent money, as well as the allowance for various dubious financial instruments that did it. Bad Regulation + Required Poor Lending Practices = 2008 Crash. Don't even get me started on the "too big to fail" bailout crap - which is ironically the argument for bailing out Greece in the here and now. I guess History Repeats. I just figured it'd take at least a decade or so...
 

Soul Fly

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^At a gross level this lose-lose comes down to improper concentration of economic powers.

I believe that the concept of the "Euro/Eurozone" needs to be strengthened into a true secular union of states (United States of Europe?) or disintegrated, instead of a half measure where monetary policy is centralized, but Fiscal Policy is localized to the separate countries, (leading to low unconditional lending rates for errant countries like Greece; think of it as them using their rich cousin Germany's credit card) leading to a lot of benefit and no accountability for the few select nations with others pulling their weight. This is a rather unpopular option because this takes away a major sovereign domain of nations, making them more like states.
The other option is of course the older way with separate currencies, where they'd be completely responsible for the heath of the currency and not just benefactors.

They must choose between their economic sovereignty or the potential economic growth benefit derived from the union. I think the crisis has proven that we can't have both.

"The political institutions and practices that have grown up around the euro and the EU are based on the belief that exercises of sovereignty are dangerous, irresponsible, and unaccountable. Although these institutions are in one sense nothing more than the product of agreements between nations, their raison d’être is to prevent any further, outright expression of that sovereign power. That is why they insist on total subjection to their decisions, and why Greece became about more than Greece."

This article perhaps sums it up the best, even if it's a shade too red here and there. (Advocates for the latter - Criticizing the half-ass implementation of the Euro)

You Can’t Be Pro-Euro and Anti-Austerity - Jacobin

What do you think about this piece? Chou Toshio



Also for reference, here are the terms of the Euro-Summit agreement that Greece was literally detained into signing. Though I believe this is for the greater good, we definitely need a step addressing what I mentioned in the first para, to avoid having to force errant nations to toe the line using 'diplomatic terrorism' -: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/1...ment-on-greece-annotated-by-yanis-varoufakis/
 
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Chou Toshio

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^At a gross level this lose-lose comes down to improper concentration of economic powers.

I believe that the concept of the "Euro/Eurozone" needs to be strengthened into a true secular union of states (United States of Europe?) or disintegrated, instead of a half measure where monetary policy is centralized, but Fiscal Policy is localized to the separate countries, (leading to low unconditional lending rates for errant countries like Greece; think of it as them using their rich cousin Germany's credit card) leading to a lot of benefit and no accountability for the few select nations with others pulling their weight. This is a rather unpopular option because this takes away a major sovereign domain of nations, making them more like states.
The other option is of course the older way with separate currencies, where they'd be completely responsible for the heath of the currency and not just benefactors.

They must choose between their economic sovereignty or the potential economic growth benefit derived from the union. I think the crisis has proven that we can't have both.

"The political institutions and practices that have grown up around the euro and the EU are based on the belief that exercises of sovereignty are dangerous, irresponsible, and unaccountable. Although these institutions are in one sense nothing more than the product of agreements between nations, their raison d’être is to prevent any further, outright expression of that sovereign power. That is why they insist on total subjection to their decisions, and why Greece became about more than Greece."

This article perhaps sums it up the best, even if it's a shade too red here and there. (Advocates for the latter - Criticizing the half-ass implementation of the Euro)

You Can’t Be Pro-Euro and Anti-Austerity - Jacobin

What do you think about this piece? Chou Toshio



Also for reference, here are the terms of the Euro-Summit agreement that Greece was literally detained into signing. Though I believe this is for the greater good, we definitely need a step addressing what I mentioned in the first para, to avoid having to force errant nations to toe the line using 'diplomatic terrorism' -: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/1...ment-on-greece-annotated-by-yanis-varoufakis/
I would say the statement "You can't be Pro-Euro and Anti-Austerity" is ultimately true. I personally don't like the views of the author of the article you posted, who criticizes the treatment of Greece, calling the terms "torture" and paint the agreement as stomping on democracy and a strip of sovereignty. Again, this was never a topic of democracy, nor is the EU stripping away Greece's sovereignty at all, rather it's the opposite.

It's BECAUSE all the European countries are sovereign nations that Austerity need be harsh-- because the debt holders and regulators are not accountable to the Greek voters.

This is different from the United States, where some states are actually covering others' deficits when looking at state-by-state Federal taxes. Federal government and financial regulation are accountable to all the states, and must consider the well-being of the nation, and no state has the legal right to leave the Union either.

It is because Greece is a sovereign country, with its own fiscal policy and right to rule that it is an entity responsible for itself, and must be held accountable by its business and political partners. It is because Greece is sovereign and could ultimately say "Fuck off" to any 'laws' Europe tries to implement, that austerity agreement is the ONLY way for debt holders to instill discipline.

That would be why => You can't be pro-Euro and anti-Austerity




As for the degree of severity and stringency in the agreement... This comes down to a most basic and fundamental principle of lending-- the lower your trust, the higher your interest rate.

The more uncertainty the lender takes on, the less he trusts the borrower, the more he has to charge the borrower in order to make the loan. It's going to be stricter, come with more conditions and stipulations, strings attached, and a much more expensive rate.

People wonder why the deal now is harsher than the ones offered to the Greek's before their referendum, but this is the simple answer-- when Prime Minister Tsiparas walked away from negotiations and said "fuck off, because Democracy!!!" (huh? Democracy?) he shot down any and all trust of his creditors-- made it worse anyway. By being erratic, he added more uncertainty and lowered trust.

more uncertainty = more conditions, higher interest rates
less trust = more conditions, higher interest rates

Plus, it's human nature to want to beat this dumb ass over the head with an iron pole. The idea the referendum would put Greece in a better position are completely idiotic-- he should have at least made a referendum that gave him the authority to say "fuck it" and leave the Euro.
 
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I found an interesting interview with Yanis Varoufakis the other day. There are a lot of interesting things being discussed like the current situation with Greece and how they end up with it. And a few interesting things about Europe.

Don't worry, it is in English but since it is on a German youtube channel, there are German subtitles of course.

It is over an hour long, so there is a lot of stuff to take in.
 
I follow this pretty closely.

Greece's fate was sealed the moment they joined the EU. EU Nations that use the Euro function as U.S. states would without a Federal government. States like California and New York would be much better off than states like Alabama and West Virginia, who depend on the distribution of Federal tax dollars flowing into their state.
 

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