A real Mary Sue warps the story around them in a negative fashion. Cynthia is in the background enough that she doesn't warp anything.
Also she's supposed to be amazing, she's the goddamn champion. It's in their job description.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
Also she's supposed to be amazing, she's the goddamn champion. It's in their job description.
Maybe I'm spoiled on "enemies-only" items/spells/classes in other video games, but I would be just fine with the last trainer battle in the story breaking that kind of rule.
Baton pass Sue, it's a thing, YMMV or feel offended that a character gets called out. However her design music and execution screams edgelord to a few people.
Some people try to disguise it with her team being hard... However Lucian posses a bigger treath on most scenarios than Cynthia in DP given the terrible dex of the games.
Cynthia Sue: I never get any Mary Sue vibes from Cynthia. Sure she's mysterious but that's because she's the League Champion who's busy doing background work while we're just a kid running around Sinnoh. The only time I would call BS on her is in Platinum where she has the player taking on Cyrus while she sat back and watched. Okay, maybe she's helping you train to battle her and if you do lose she could easily step in and defeat Cyrus... but with the sake of the universe at hand Cynthia should really just wrap things up. At the very least they could have had her like trying to calm down Giratina or something instead of just watching wishing she had a bowl of popcorn.
Zinnia ran around acting like she knew everything and she was better then everyone, even mocking Steven. Cynthia may of once or twice explained her philosophy but never did she talk down to anyone or acted better than them (even as Cyrus walks off into the Distortion World she just quietly explains how Cyrus's philosophy is only half right). I think people think Cynthia is a Mary Sue because the only time we see her she has the upperhand in some way, but considering she doesn't appear that often in the game that's just timing on the player's part. While not the games, in the anime they showed Cynthia has flaws (she apparently can't make simple choices without thinking about it for a while). Cynthia seems perfect, but that's all in timing.
But you're right about Sycamore. A professor trying to learn about Mega Evolution yet apparently he never bothered to go to the Tower of Mastery (and its questionable if he knew it even existed and if that's true then WOW, Sycamore you're HORRIBLE at your job!). Though he also can't see Lysandre being evil despite being so right in front of him (or he didn't want to accept that a former pupil of his would turn bad).
Also while she may have had 5 Key Stones there was still only one of her. Would have been an interesting idea though, her trying to use multiple Key Stones but as she did she gets more and more exhausted due to the tremendous energy its taking from her.
Zinnia ran around acting like she knew everything and she was better then everyone, even mocking Steven. Cynthia may of once or twice explained her philosophy but never did she talk down to anyone or acted better than them (even as Cyrus walks off into the Distortion World she just quietly explains how Cyrus's philosophy is only half right). I think people think Cynthia is a Mary Sue because the only time we see her she has the upperhand in some way, but considering she doesn't appear that often in the game that's just timing on the player's part. While not the games, in the anime they showed Cynthia has flaws (she apparently can't make simple choices without thinking about it for a while). Cynthia seems perfect, but that's all in timing.
Actually Iris in the games knows what she's doing, she just does things in a very straight forward and rash manner. She knows where she's going and the shortest distance between two points is a straight line... but sometimes when there's something in the way of that straight line she runs right into it and doesn't know where to proceed.
But you're right about Sycamore. A professor trying to learn about Mega Evolution yet apparently he never bothered to go to the Tower of Mastery (and its questionable if he knew it even existed and if that's true then WOW, Sycamore you're HORRIBLE at your job!). Though he also can't see Lysandre being evil despite being so right in front of him (or he didn't want to accept that a former pupil of his would turn bad).
Zinnia had 5 Key Stones (May's/Brandon's, Wally's, Courtney's/Matt's, Maxie's/Archie's, and her own). Oddly she never tried stealing Steven's, guessing because she knew he'd wipe the floor with her if she attempted.
Also while she may have had 5 Key Stones there was still only one of her. Would have been an interesting idea though, her trying to use multiple Key Stones but as she did she gets more and more exhausted due to the tremendous energy its taking from her.
not gonna post an unpopular opinion, but I wanted to pop in and say that you are wrong about Sycamore. This was stated by one of those peeps over at the Tower of Mastery when I was playing Y, but it's been stated that Sycamore actually did go to the Tower of Mastery (and thus knows it exists) when he was younger and trained there to learn more about Mega Evolution. However, he eventually left because he felt he didn't have what it takes. Also he knew all along about Lysandre's desire for a beautiful world, but he never discussed such a matter with him so at the end he felt partially responsible for that.
Since people have been talking about favorite champions I thought I'd join. Hopefully this doesn't spawn into another argument(seriously first I mentioned Arceus as the creator and that spawned an argument then the DNA splicers and well actually that was more of a discussion.) I'd say my least favorite is Wallace in Emerald. His personality was bland and his water type team was pathetically easy if you had grass and electric type. The only thing I liked was his design. Now my favorite had to be Alder. He had a good team, he had a nice design and he had a likable personality. Though his nephew is annoying.
You'll find very few people disagreeing with you - before Diantha rolled around, most people considered him the worst champion.
That was Lance for me... And unless we count his rematch team in hgss he is still the lamest champion to date.
Alder at least had a decent thematic going with him without being a sue despite his rather underwhelming team, I swear to God that they took away his Hydreigon in order to give a sense of challenge to Gethsis.
Never did like Lance, but at least he was a decent battle. Wallace's was pathetic. The fight with Steven after beating the champion in Emerald was far better because it was actually challenging and had you on your toes.
That is kinda judging post game stuff, I honestly try to judge the game stuff up to the first league as that is the average player experience of the target demographic.
That's why I'm not counting HGSS rematch team nor super boss Steven.
My gripe with Cynthia is actually the opposite: the Champion has the most right to influence the story alongside the player since, by all rights, they're the strongest authority amongst trainers in the region, as can be seen with Alder and Steven in the Delta Episode being consulted for the conflicts.
With that in mind, my issue is that Cynthia was played like she was a big figure when she really doesn't DO anything. In order:
- Blue has the excuse of not being Champion for most of the game, so he doesn't have that responsibility.
- Lance is absent most of the game, and only helps in the Rocket Hideout. Then again, Team Rocket is kind of pathetic in this game.
- Steven doesn't do TOO much, but in Emerald he is present for Magma's attack on the Space Center, which, in retrospect, is the only high profile activity by the teams before awakening their titan
- Alder does outright try to battle N, and is simply defeated.
Cynthia, thinking about it, just kind of pops up in places where Galactic shows up and does nothing to stop them: Veilstone right after you save the bike owner; Sends you to Celestic town rather than making the delivery herself, and doesn't do much after finding there's a bomb threat; Rowan evidently doesn't contact her nor does she investigate the lakes after Galactic bombs one; and then there's the infamous moment in the Distortion World. Also, Team Galactic publicly has a giant building for themselves in Veilstone, and nothing is done about this. This wouldn't be so bad if Cynthia wasn't one of the very few Champions that was legitimately challenging to fight; I give the manga credit here, since they had Cynthia fight Cyrus and lose to his tactics.
I never really got "edgy" out of Cynthia. "Edgy" tends to be a character that defies rules, their way is best, pushes boundaries in universe and on a meta level. Cynthia seems at worst like an Aloof Dark Chick, and barely at that. But despite being the first case where the Champion seemed written as an involved figure, Steven was more involved (if just barely and with less focus), while Alder was where they finally understood to actually have the Champion do something if they said they'd do something.
I maintain Zinnia as a Mary Sue, whereas Cynthia is unhelpful or a case of informed ability (story wise) until the actual Champion Battle.
Also, while I don't condone the idea of them becoming even more OP, Primal forms would be a possible way to mitigate the issue of the Creation mons' overpowered Pokedex abilites. Groudon and Kyogre were powerful, but their particularly ridiculous power levels originated from some supernatural energy that turned them Primal, which Rayquaza broke them from as a Mega. It'd mitigate the "Arceus is THE God" theory, since instead of creating the Universe from scratch, it would mean he and/or the Creation Trios merely harness/shaped an energy that was already there.
With that in mind, my issue is that Cynthia was played like she was a big figure when she really doesn't DO anything. In order:
- Blue has the excuse of not being Champion for most of the game, so he doesn't have that responsibility.
- Lance is absent most of the game, and only helps in the Rocket Hideout. Then again, Team Rocket is kind of pathetic in this game.
- Steven doesn't do TOO much, but in Emerald he is present for Magma's attack on the Space Center, which, in retrospect, is the only high profile activity by the teams before awakening their titan
- Alder does outright try to battle N, and is simply defeated.
Cynthia, thinking about it, just kind of pops up in places where Galactic shows up and does nothing to stop them: Veilstone right after you save the bike owner; Sends you to Celestic town rather than making the delivery herself, and doesn't do much after finding there's a bomb threat; Rowan evidently doesn't contact her nor does she investigate the lakes after Galactic bombs one; and then there's the infamous moment in the Distortion World. Also, Team Galactic publicly has a giant building for themselves in Veilstone, and nothing is done about this. This wouldn't be so bad if Cynthia wasn't one of the very few Champions that was legitimately challenging to fight; I give the manga credit here, since they had Cynthia fight Cyrus and lose to his tactics.
I never really got "edgy" out of Cynthia. "Edgy" tends to be a character that defies rules, their way is best, pushes boundaries in universe and on a meta level. Cynthia seems at worst like an Aloof Dark Chick, and barely at that. But despite being the first case where the Champion seemed written as an involved figure, Steven was more involved (if just barely and with less focus), while Alder was where they finally understood to actually have the Champion do something if they said they'd do something.
I maintain Zinnia as a Mary Sue, whereas Cynthia is unhelpful or a case of informed ability (story wise) until the actual Champion Battle.
Also, while I don't condone the idea of them becoming even more OP, Primal forms would be a possible way to mitigate the issue of the Creation mons' overpowered Pokedex abilites. Groudon and Kyogre were powerful, but their particularly ridiculous power levels originated from some supernatural energy that turned them Primal, which Rayquaza broke them from as a Mega. It'd mitigate the "Arceus is THE God" theory, since instead of creating the Universe from scratch, it would mean he and/or the Creation Trios merely harness/shaped an energy that was already there.
You seem to forget that Alder was consulted as a figure of experience and treated N just like any other challenger to the league.
He was recognized as an experienced and strong trainer, not as a law enforcement unit but as a moral role to the other trainers.
Only Lance and Steven pulled off the whole deal of confronting an evil organization with their own motivation, not because of their position in the games, the Manga is a whole nother business.
And that is why Cynthia is the full blown edgelord character in Pokémon, she broke several barriers that where merely pushed aside by previous characters and confronts the player with her view of the world, I could attack her impossibly cool design but the Internet already had fun with it.
Even though Cynthia broke the barriers she also ended up posing a standard wich makes people question the role of a less involved not so hinted champion like Diantha, whether this could be called a positive effect on the fanbase or a self imposed crutch that lasted 2 generations is up to you to decide.
He was recognized as an experienced and strong trainer, not as a law enforcement unit but as a moral role to the other trainers.
Only Lance and Steven pulled off the whole deal of confronting an evil organization with their own motivation, not because of their position in the games, the Manga is a whole nother business.
And that is why Cynthia is the full blown edgelord character in Pokémon, she broke several barriers that where merely pushed aside by previous characters and confronts the player with her view of the world, I could attack her impossibly cool design but the Internet already had fun with it.
Even though Cynthia broke the barriers she also ended up posing a standard wich makes people question the role of a less involved not so hinted champion like Diantha, whether this could be called a positive effect on the fanbase or a self imposed crutch that lasted 2 generations is up to you to decide.
As much as I loathe Zinnia I wouldn't call her a Sue. The Draconoid thing is more cliched that a Sue trait (though I'll admit I got "bad fanfic writing" vibes when it was revealed) and other characters react appropriately to her actions with distrust and speculation for her multiverse speech.
I seriously think you're overreacting. I'll admit Cynthia isn't the most well-written character in the games, but she isn't nearly as bad as you make her out to be. Sure she's borderline perfect, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing since the game doesn't shove it down your face and her position as champion kind of demands that she doesn't have any serious flaws. The champion is supposed to be the best trainer in the region (and presumably a good person) that you're striving to become, and the target audience for the games doesn't exactly want deconstructions of that sort of thing lest you alienate them. Plus she's pretty similar to the player character due to having done the whole Pokedex thing for Rowan when she was younger, making her seen more realistic since she went through what you did.
There's not that many Pokemon I dislike, but one of the ones I do is Dragonite. The reason why I don't like it is mostly disappointment. When I first saw Dratini and Dragonair, they were some of my favorite Pokemon(I still like them, but they're not even in my top 20). When I learned Dragonair evolved, I thought it was going to evolve into some cool-elegant-serpentine dragon Pokemon, but instead I got puff puff the derp dragon.
There has been several discussion about the unicorn worm appreciation, several times it has been pointed down that dragonite was a decent choice design wise due to the basic elements included from dratini.
I agree with you. I'd personally like Dragonair to retain it's serpentine qualities and look like a gyarados or something.
Actually I am quite the opposite. When I first saw dratini I thought it was going to be a water type. But I was really confused when I found out it was a dragon type. Same with dragonair, I thought they should be water types not dragon. However when dragonair evolved into dragonite the dragon typing made sense. Also I really like how the designs of dragonite looks friendly and lovable instead of the usual stereotype of a scary dragon(which is what most dragon type designs are). That is also the reason I like goodra. Instead of being big and scary they look like friendly companions that just want to share a cookie with you.
Yeah this is where I'm split on Dragonite; I do like it on it's own as a design and such... but then it's just so confusing that it evolves from something so totally different. And it's not like Magikarp or Clamperl where it has lore and/or biological reasons for this to make sense, it just... happens. Makes me wish we had two Gen 1 dragons so we could have both Dragonite and whatever an ideal evolution of Dragonair would be
It doesn't come from nowhere, look at gen 1 dratini sprite, also gen 1 dragonite had the horn. It was later retconed.
For blue horrible dragonair fanfic evolution there is always deviantart.
This really sums up my feelings on Dragonite and Goodra. The only Dragon-type I like better then those two is Giratina and that's because:
A) First legendary I ever caught.
B) Platinum was my first game.
C) Ghost/Dragon is the coolest type in the whole game, especially since Ghost is my favorite type.
Well yeah I'm not saying it comes completely out of nowhere and that Dragonite shares no characteristics, but you can't really deny that Dragonair > Dragonite is a humongous change, especially when Dratini > Dragonair was much more minor and natural.
The thing that makes Zinnia feel like a Sue is that while the characters show distrust for her speech, I didn't quite feel like the narrative did. From a meta stand point, the game expects you to understand Zinnia's theory because the games are remakes, knowledge that obviously would make no sense to the in game characters. Also, the narrative just seems to expect you to go along with Zinnia's solution by trusting her: why does she not suggest to STEVEN to call on Rayquaza? She's of the Draconoids with a history connected to Rayquaza, and given we had a display of the Weather Titans and history says Rayquaza quelled both of them, it's reasonable to think Rayquaza would be strong enough to help in this situation.
My other gripe is that vague Backstory alluded to with Aster seems very tacked on. It just seemed like an excuse to have her dote on Whismur and make her look less insane by playing on the "concerned parent" angle. My issue is that for how big a part of her personality it's supposed to be, it doesn't feel connected to anything. Maybe if Aster's dream was to see Rayquaza, it would explain why she's so fixated on THIS being the solution, instead of just stubbornly clinging to an unproven multiverse theory. I know the mystery is probably a big thing for speculation and mystery about her, but when it's so disconnected from her role in the story, which is the only relevance she has in this game, it feels more like something they tacked on to elicit sympathy for a character that, quite frankly, was being a bitch for 90% of her screen time, even when you figure out she was retroactively a protagonist: good intentions or not, she mugged a 10-13 Year Old for a Keystone, and I wouldn't put it past her to rob Wally if she couldn't get Maxie/Archie's Keystone.
My friends had a theory that Aster is actually Zinnia's child or mother who was turned into a Pokemon... I want a real Astrer explanation though, and why a Whismur?
Snowflake Sue, the authors just wanted her to be unique so people would theorize about her whismur fixation.