Egg is a liability against every ice type as well as Zapdos and shouldn't be anywhere close to S rank.
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OU RBY OU Viability Ranking (2013 to 2016)
- Thread starter Princess Bubblegum
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Not sure if trolling but I'll respond anyway
Calling Egg a liability against Ice types is a huge exaggeration given that none of them, bar Jynx, want to switch in on either a Psychic or a Stun spore (this applies to Zapdos as well).
Then you have to consider what Egg brings to the table- it's the most reliable sleeper in the game, a fantastic check to physical attackers, particularly GolDon and it also has Boom and a Psychic resist. Physical checks are bloody invaluable, but it's the sleep that makes it extremely difficult to not fit on a team- if you're not running it that means you're using something niche like Bel or something wildly inconsistent like Sing or non-lead Gengar.
As for my own thoughts, I would pretty much end up c/ping PO's viability ranking and maybe drop Cloyster down to C (Ik I argued earlier for it to rise, but I've changed my mind, it just doesn't accomplish enough offensively) as well as redoing D rank. Other than those 2 things I think they're pretty much spot on, since I don't really care about how things are ranked within tiers.
Good call on lapras, i also agree it's slightly better than the rest of the b tier crew and the po list which we are basically plagiarizing here has it too so hey. So i updated the list. Not quite sure what to do with b tier and lower, so i'll just leave those be for now. I also added an awkward sentence to the s tier description to fit the 4 mons better overall. I guess this is officially alive and open for changes that might actually happen now.
Crestfall
levitate, levitate, levitate, levitate
Thanks for updating Beds. However I do think you should give S a more proper description.
Current:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon which pose a very significant offensive or defensive threat, consistently harming or walling the opposing team. The roles these Pokemon can fulfill are crucial, if not mandatory, for RBY teams and these Pokemon are the best at their certain roles.
My Proposal:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who pose a very significant threat to the opposing team. Either through significant offensive/defensive ability (prowess?) or by nature of immense utility. These Pokemon are the best in their respective roles and should always be expected (prepared for?).
Was considering adding to the end of my last line "expected on any competitive team."
Current:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon which pose a very significant offensive or defensive threat, consistently harming or walling the opposing team. The roles these Pokemon can fulfill are crucial, if not mandatory, for RBY teams and these Pokemon are the best at their certain roles.
My Proposal:
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who pose a very significant threat to the opposing team. Either through significant offensive/defensive ability (prowess?) or by nature of immense utility. These Pokemon are the best in their respective roles and should always be expected (prepared for?).
Was considering adding to the end of my last line "expected on any competitive team."
Snorlax Body Slam vs. Aerodactyl: 63-75 (17.3 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO
Snorlax Body Slam vs. Cloyster: 64-76 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
That's not a really significant niche imo, plus aero takes a nice chunk from surf and does less back (after considering sky attack charge turn and clamp's effect)
edit: by 'not a really significant niche', I mean that it's not much better than say cloyster at its role, while hitting back less hard and having less general purpose
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Just speaking as one of the ranking guys for 6th gen OU thread I think the last sentence is fine if you're establishing a criteria for S rank but the first sentence isn't. You're sort of implying that while the significance is there that something may or may not be missing in correlation to threat level and that from a subjective standpoint, such as consistently harming or walling the opposing team, this could change during the scenario of battle where something lower accomplishes this feat. The S rank should define the meta-game in regards to what works from a practical standpoint along with their centralization in the tier. I guess what I'm trying to say is the definitions seem a bit off from a third perspective such as myself if you're using the definitions to lay out a foundation for current and future ranking proposals.
I'd like to see cloyster move up to B. It's a blizzard spammer with a wrap move and explosion, that's a lot of utility in and of itself, and when you add in how well it handles physicals it just gets better. It's got a very useful explosion, because lapras is the only thing that actually likes switching into it, and the "standard" team doesn't have a lot of good answers to a well played cloyster. Explosion sets it apart from the other ice types because it makes it so that a paralyzed chansey/Zac is much less safe, although it can't sleep anything like Jynx or luck as well as lapras I think B fits it well.
I'm a little less sold on this one, but I'd like to hear opinions on Jynx moving up as well. There's a reason its tour usage is so high, and it stacks well in a meta where Zam and Starmie leads are so popular. I think being the game's best lead is worthy of A.
I would also get rid of E and move poli, moltres and raichu up to D.
I'm a little less sold on this one, but I'd like to hear opinions on Jynx moving up as well. There's a reason its tour usage is so high, and it stacks well in a meta where Zam and Starmie leads are so popular. I think being the game's best lead is worthy of A.
I would also get rid of E and move poli, moltres and raichu up to D.
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Removing E Rank completely would be an exeggaration to me, but I still have some honest questions about a few Pokemon listed there, because i really dont know what they do.
Those are Arcanine, Golduck and Tangela.
What does Arcanine do in general and is everything it can do not better done by Ninetales?
What does Golduck do, that slowbro doesn't?
What does Tangela do, that Exeggutor doen't?
I'm not making any nominations of Pokemon that should drop or something, it's just that I honestly want to know what these Pokemon do, because I don't know.
Those are Arcanine, Golduck and Tangela.
What does Arcanine do in general and is everything it can do not better done by Ninetales?
What does Golduck do, that slowbro doesn't?
What does Tangela do, that Exeggutor doen't?
I'm not making any nominations of Pokemon that should drop or something, it's just that I honestly want to know what these Pokemon do, because I don't know.
Arcanine is trash. Best I can figure is a higher Attack stat.
Golduck outspeeds Exeggutor to nail it with Blizzards. It's pretty much outclassed though.
Tangela gets Bind and is a little faster than Egg, putting it at a great Speed tier for abusing it against the slowmons.
Golduck outspeeds Exeggutor to nail it with Blizzards. It's pretty much outclassed though.
Tangela gets Bind and is a little faster than Egg, putting it at a great Speed tier for abusing it against the slowmons.
I would disagree because of the boom, but the point about struggling with blizzard in general is true. I just think the two together is what makes it effective, its extremely disruptive.
I would like to nominate Slowbro for A, since I believe it's not less viable than Lapras. Even though it's not huge but Lapras not being able to paralyze Chansey on its own is at least a little disatvantage, additionally I find Slowbro using Amnesia on a paralyzed mon extremely good due to outspeeding it after that even if paralyzed on its own. At least I think Lapras shuld not be ranked above Slowbro, I'm fine with Laprs in A, but then Slowbro should be there as well, otherwise I believe Lapras should drop to B, but I guess it would look weird with only 2 mons in B.
I can try to go deeper as to why I think Slowbro is A material, but I'll just wait for a little discussion.
My mind about this is not set in stone, so feel free to convince me of the opposite. (:
I can try to go deeper as to why I think Slowbro is A material, but I'll just wait for a little discussion.
My mind about this is not set in stone, so feel free to convince me of the opposite. (:
I think Gengar needs the A Rank because it's the very great lead in the metagame, with its " good brother " Alakazam.
It also have a very good coverage and acces to Explosion, to sleep inducer which is crucial in RBY. In my opinion, Gengar is very underated in this Viability Ranking.
Also, Alakazam needs the S Rank imo, look at that it can do :
Beat Chansey
Be a potential check to Amnesis Snorlax
Shuffle Paralysis
Be a Sleep Absorber, and the best one
Outspeed Gengar Lead and win the Matchup if Gengar Miss Hypnosis ( and if it hit Kazam do the job of Sleep Absober )
Screen a Reflect to check Tauros
That thing has one heal, Recover, best RBY heal.
High Critical Hit ratioratio
That Pokemon is one of them which define the metagame, and that make him a S Rank.
It's 4:30 AM in France, so, I should have some english misstakes in that post, please don't fight me for that ^^
It also have a very good coverage and acces to Explosion, to sleep inducer which is crucial in RBY. In my opinion, Gengar is very underated in this Viability Ranking.
Also, Alakazam needs the S Rank imo, look at that it can do :
Beat Chansey
Be a potential check to Amnesis Snorlax
Shuffle Paralysis
Be a Sleep Absorber, and the best one
Outspeed Gengar Lead and win the Matchup if Gengar Miss Hypnosis ( and if it hit Kazam do the job of Sleep Absober )
Screen a Reflect to check Tauros
That thing has one heal, Recover, best RBY heal.
High Critical Hit ratioratio
That Pokemon is one of them which define the metagame, and that make him a S Rank.
It's 4:30 AM in France, so, I should have some english misstakes in that post, please don't fight me for that ^^
Gengar belongs in B rank because it's a thoroughly mediocre pokemon. Fast sleep only gets it so far as a lead when Zam is arguably the best lead in the game and shits all over it. Seriously, Jynx is its only relevant good matchup. Its coverage is far from good- it gets Tbolt and then its next best attack is Night Shade, which is pretty pathetic.
Also Zam is fine in A rank. The biggest problem is that it can't do everything at once. If you run reflect you become very easy to wall. If you run SToss you become weak to physical attackers. Not to mention that because there's a plethora of things that sponge a Psychic in OU it often has to take status in order to do anything which really limits it. While on paper it's a monster in practice it's much more easily manageable.
As for Bro and Lap, I'm strongly of the opinion that Lap is significantly better than Bro, and also that Bro does not belong in A rank. The only thing Bro does consistently well is Twave stuff. Otherwise it is very inconsistent as it encounters a lot of bad matchups (any team with Starmie or an Electric) and even if it doesn't get a bad matchup it's still not that hard to play around it imo. Whereas Lap needs a bit more support but if Chansey's paralysed it can threaten anything. That said it does encounter bad matchups (same ones as Bro), it's just that its upfront power makes it more consistent imo.
So yeah, I think Bro's fine where it is. Lapras is interesting tho, because WCoP stats show it has a fairly abysmal win rate. I posted about this over on pokemon perfect but I think it's worth asking here- is there anything to this low win rate or is it just an anomaly?
Also Zam is fine in A rank. The biggest problem is that it can't do everything at once. If you run reflect you become very easy to wall. If you run SToss you become weak to physical attackers. Not to mention that because there's a plethora of things that sponge a Psychic in OU it often has to take status in order to do anything which really limits it. While on paper it's a monster in practice it's much more easily manageable.
As for Bro and Lap, I'm strongly of the opinion that Lap is significantly better than Bro, and also that Bro does not belong in A rank. The only thing Bro does consistently well is Twave stuff. Otherwise it is very inconsistent as it encounters a lot of bad matchups (any team with Starmie or an Electric) and even if it doesn't get a bad matchup it's still not that hard to play around it imo. Whereas Lap needs a bit more support but if Chansey's paralysed it can threaten anything. That said it does encounter bad matchups (same ones as Bro), it's just that its upfront power makes it more consistent imo.
So yeah, I think Bro's fine where it is. Lapras is interesting tho, because WCoP stats show it has a fairly abysmal win rate. I posted about this over on pokemon perfect but I think it's worth asking here- is there anything to this low win rate or is it just an anomaly?
Yes, Lapras is good, very good indeed. But look what it takes to beat a Slowbro: Victreebel (not a good pokemon otherwise, hates para), Explosion (kills an opposing mon), electrics (non of them likes to get paralyzed, which they will get most of the time, and they usually still need a crit to not lose (yeah they have grat CH-ratio, but you can still end up losing to bro with an electric!)), Starmie (same as electrics, gets parad and needs a crit).
So basically the fact that u kind of need a crit or sacrifice ur Lax or whatever for beating Slowbro makes it kinda hard to beat it. Of course Slowbro has to Rest once in a while but with boosted special it can wake up most of the time and paralyze the opposing pokemon that switched in on it while it was sleeping, trying to beat it (score a crit).
Lapras on the other hand can do little to Chansey except if u have confusion luck, it might have sing, but sing is unreliable due to sleep clause being activated maybe or simply ue to accuracy. I don't know I just don't feel Lapras contributes more to a team than Bro does.
"The only thing Bro does consistently well is Twave stuff." Yes, but that is a very important thing to do and it usually does some good damage most of the time additionally to that. Lastly I want to point out that it really helps bro that it can paralyze Starmie/Zapdos/Jolteon, set up (another) Amnesia and outpace them which gives it quite an advantage that should not be underestimated.
So basically the fact that u kind of need a crit or sacrifice ur Lax or whatever for beating Slowbro makes it kinda hard to beat it. Of course Slowbro has to Rest once in a while but with boosted special it can wake up most of the time and paralyze the opposing pokemon that switched in on it while it was sleeping, trying to beat it (score a crit).
Lapras on the other hand can do little to Chansey except if u have confusion luck, it might have sing, but sing is unreliable due to sleep clause being activated maybe or simply ue to accuracy. I don't know I just don't feel Lapras contributes more to a team than Bro does.
"The only thing Bro does consistently well is Twave stuff." Yes, but that is a very important thing to do and it usually does some good damage most of the time additionally to that. Lastly I want to point out that it really helps bro that it can paralyze Starmie/Zapdos/Jolteon, set up (another) Amnesia and outpace them which gives it quite an advantage that should not be underestimated.
As for Gengar and Alakazam: I believe that they are both where they belong. "Fastest Sleep" sounds good on paper but Gengar has a shitty matchup vs common leads such as Alakazam/Starmie and really does not waht to take a Psychic from them trying to score a Sleep, it should rather switch out. Although Hypnosis accuracy is not good so even against other leads that are slower that Gar, Jynx/Exeggutor(?) it is not a safe sleep... So B is fine for it.
Alakazam is very good and can really stand its own ground but you need to compara it to the other S Rans: Is it really as good as them? The answer is no in my opinion because it still is kind of easy to wall by other psychics and while this applies to Eggy too, Zam cannot explode to make up for it. So A is fine for it.
Alakazam is very good and can really stand its own ground but you need to compara it to the other S Rans: Is it really as good as them? The answer is no in my opinion because it still is kind of easy to wall by other psychics and while this applies to Eggy too, Zam cannot explode to make up for it. So A is fine for it.
The thing about needing a crit to beat Bro is that the necessary crit will often come. In practice it concedes a ton of opportunities to get that crit because it's not all that hard to force it to Rest since it will often be switching into powerful attackers such as Lax and Golem. Coupled with the fact that it needs multiple boosts to beat its most common checks and there's just a ton of chances for something to happen.
Hypothetical scenario time: You switch in Bro to check Golem, take 30% from EQ. You Twave, catch his Starmie, whatever. Same scenario happens a second time, you take another 30%, leaving Bro at 40% HP against a Golem, which is a shit situation- you apparently have to Rest, but if you do Golem can Rest cycle you until it runs out of PP, crits, or you change your approach. If you stay in and go for the KO, EQ leaves you at 10% and now it's just Tauros fodder. Of course Golem can switch out as well, but I'm not gonna go down that path because there's way too many options that way.
So basically there's not much leeway when it comes to Bro, everything has to go right for it to live up to its potential. That's not to say it isn't good, because it's a monster when things go its way, but when they don't it kinda sucks and too often that'll be the case. So yeah, good mon, just not A rank imo
Lapras vs Chansey, yeah there's Sing, it's never been my favourite choice but it can sometimes get the job done so idk. Depends on what the rest of your team looks like, but taking on Lapras without Chansey can be a nightmare. If it's running CRay rather than Sing then its objective is not to actually threaten Chansey but force it to cough up a free turn for LaxGolDon, which is something it does tremendously well. Obviously it needs para support tho.
Hypothetical scenario time: You switch in Bro to check Golem, take 30% from EQ. You Twave, catch his Starmie, whatever. Same scenario happens a second time, you take another 30%, leaving Bro at 40% HP against a Golem, which is a shit situation- you apparently have to Rest, but if you do Golem can Rest cycle you until it runs out of PP, crits, or you change your approach. If you stay in and go for the KO, EQ leaves you at 10% and now it's just Tauros fodder. Of course Golem can switch out as well, but I'm not gonna go down that path because there's way too many options that way.
So basically there's not much leeway when it comes to Bro, everything has to go right for it to live up to its potential. That's not to say it isn't good, because it's a monster when things go its way, but when they don't it kinda sucks and too often that'll be the case. So yeah, good mon, just not A rank imo
Lapras vs Chansey, yeah there's Sing, it's never been my favourite choice but it can sometimes get the job done so idk. Depends on what the rest of your team looks like, but taking on Lapras without Chansey can be a nightmare. If it's running CRay rather than Sing then its objective is not to actually threaten Chansey but force it to cough up a free turn for LaxGolDon, which is something it does tremendously well. Obviously it needs para support tho.
I agree with you on most things you're saying, but what if in that scenario Slowbro just stays in on the paralyzed Starmie setting up? it then will outspeed it even after getting twaved as well. I know starmie is likely to crit, but its just not safe relying on paralyzed mie to kill bro when set up. anf if it successfully rested it pretty much ready to go
and kill like 2 mons which includes the second one exploding on it. And maybe thats me overselling it a little but i feel that scenario is also realistic. For me Slowrbro is kinda not a take-an-EQ, -switch-out-netx turn-mon, but rather set-up-spread-para-do a lot of damage-mon.
My point is apparantly that I have a problem with the fact that you need luck* to beat bro, and if you don't get it it just wins the game (or at least contributes quite a lot to win it)
*of course you could turn that around and say you need luck to achieve a lot with bro, so I guess I see where you're coming from. So I see why it might be a too inconsistent for A, but what I still believe then is that LApras should not be ranked higher. Lapras can get worn down trough out the match due to switching into attacks from physicals or something so I fell it doesn't achieve that much too...
and kill like 2 mons which includes the second one exploding on it. And maybe thats me overselling it a little but i feel that scenario is also realistic. For me Slowrbro is kinda not a take-an-EQ, -switch-out-netx turn-mon, but rather set-up-spread-para-do a lot of damage-mon.
My point is apparantly that I have a problem with the fact that you need luck* to beat bro, and if you don't get it it just wins the game (or at least contributes quite a lot to win it)
*of course you could turn that around and say you need luck to achieve a lot with bro, so I guess I see where you're coming from. So I see why it might be a too inconsistent for A, but what I still believe then is that LApras should not be ranked higher. Lapras can get worn down trough out the match due to switching into attacks from physicals or something so I fell it doesn't achieve that much too...
Lapras is similarly tanky, can outspeed everything Egg and slower so it isn't just fodder when it's low on health, and most importantly is an instant threat, which means it's a lot more reliable than something that needs to set up and possibly get crit in the process. Plus it has actual options that aren't just PP stalling tricks; Hyper Beam, Sing, Confuse Ray, and Rest all do meaningful (albeit subtle) things to change the way Lapras plays. Lapras just has a lot more going for it, whereas Slowbro is definitely more one-dimensional. It's more than okay that Lapras is a tier above Bro.
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