Da Letter El
Officially internet famous
Yo acidphoenix i see you creeping the thread I want you to bury the person you think is mafia the most and give the most brutal scathing analysis you can on why you think they're mafia
This is a fair response, I was excessively tunnelling on your tone and habit of picking on acidphoenix as well as Gale. But you do also go after Sam. You were indeed active today just markedly less active, but I suppose that is to be expected with today's lesser activity. At the point I wrote it though you were temp. MIA which was important because my most mixed read is you.Huh? When did that happen? I was never "nowhere in sight", I was one of three users, the other two being US and Yeti, talking AT ALL today. The only time my posts could be interpreted as "stupid aggro" is also my like 2-3 hour argument with Gale about his play trying to get him to improve it for the good of the town. Did you just miss all of my contribution?
Wouldn't know! I never play NOC with you. But the post I'm quoting is quite defensive for what largely comprised a set of ambivalent remarks about you and a desire to see you post more. Not rhetorically, just straight up very eager to defend yourself from what largely amounts to a few vague comments. I suppose I would in your position too, since you are a popular moderate scumread. I'll probably reread your posts when I've done my math homework and sent in my uni scholarship shit and maybe gotten more sleep.Not at all... I don't know why you think I'm playing so defensively TBH. Maybe my tone is weird, but it's my normal tone, so you can't incriminate me of anything based on that.
Precisely, nearly everyone in the game at the time of writing saw you both as scum. I wouldn't say you were the player who went most aggressively after acidphoenix but there's been a fairly consistent presence against him and the positions you are both in puts you in an interesting situation where you have a you-specific vested interest in pushing the lynch onto acidphoenix and vice versa.What relationship? I think acid is scum, and he reads me as scum back.
Sardonic rhetoric, sorry, it's kinda par for the course for me, but by imitation I more mean a very similar playstyle.I'm really not. I defended US Day 1, sure, but how is that imitation? I guess we're both prodding users to get them to say things, but that's not so much imitation as it is just common sense for townies to do. How exactly am I imitating him? We don't even agree on several reads.
Yes and no? I mean I obviously agree with you with my own stated comments on why I would prefer to lynch the people in the order I do that there is a degree of optimisation to be done and discussed. However I don't agree with prioritising the flip but instead reliably hitting scum. They aren't going to claim in the event of a mislynch but they will have a lot of control if both kills go through and will be easily able to hijack any votes placed. Just requires one fuckup, and we have a lot of inactive users and I don't buy that all of them are scum (probably 1-2 tho). Also I didn't just call him out for suggesting we lynch by the flip but suggesting we lynch for a flip he admitted himself wouldn't yield solid information in 100% of circumstances in a way that suggested secondary aggression onto me in a way he wasn't daring to commit to (something I pointed out in my other post about DLE, that the framing of me as U-Turn Out's partner seems like, since I do believe U-Turn Out has a good chance of being scum, a way of building up a case on lynching me, a lynch he would probably love to happen but clearly cannot instigate right now). Bolded because that's relevant to both Celever and Da Letter El.jumpluff called DLE out for suggesting we lynch by the flip, but I don't see the issue with it. It's not like if town loses majority the two mafia teams are going to claim and then kill off the remaining town; they will still be trying to act towny and scumhunting to get the other mafia lynched. As such, the flip is still something we have to consider, and I think that Ultras is scum anyway, so it's the best of both worlds.
I agree that this is solid and obvious logic, actually, and I've bothered to do exactly zero distancing of myself from Yeti because of the stupid situation both of us have been placed into by the mistakes of the host and the tension that places on my desire to play the game out ethically. The logic actually works a bit like a material inference though in that you can read a lot more from one person's posts than the other about the validity of the conclusion. My point being that Yeti and I are of course going to think differently about being linked. I am the most threatening person to Yeti because of our soulbinding, regardless of her alliance, but our sub only confirms us in the event Yeti tried to pull me in the game for her scum partner Cancerous. However I think you will find almost nobody except Da Letter El seriously thinks I'm scum, and he thinks U-Turn Out is my partner, sooo I personally find this neither threatening nor likely to be compelling (as you pointed this out, suggesting we are the most viable lynch targets these days is not very realistic).Maybe he's just a horrible noobscum who doesn't give a shit, but I think it's roughly as likely as the liklihood of a Yeti/pluff scumteam (which is basically a 100% guaranteed scumteam if one or the other is scum let's be honest)
Owned. Its okay it was all aimed at different users, just read their responses to me.jumpluff posted so much that even I can't slog through all of it with my full attention, congratulations on out tl;dring me X_X
I never talk about Yeti's alliance explicitly except as it pertains to my own because of The Diabolic Gift. I realise this is not a good position to have where we have an active poster refusing entirely to comment on another active poster, but there is simply nothing warranting talking about it in a way that could possibly be construed as explicit communication of OC information. I wrote above that I do think this is a fair assumption except for the case where I am scum and Yeti is not (literally, a material inference).-You really never bring up the possibility that Yeti is mafia. I don't think it's likely she is, but I'm probably going to work from the assumption that either you two are a mafia team or both village. Would you agree that this is a fair assumption, and if not, why not?
I'm afraid to do anything that could catalyse a bandwagon and end the game without a sub for those two users. Majority is 5, right? Then Yeti and I should never have pressure votes on the same users. I do not feel it is useful for me to stick a vote on acidphoenix who could very easily get bandwagoned in my sleep, and Da Letter El knows I want to lynch him today. (And now you all know too.) acidphoenix has been repeatedly called out and voted and called the bluff, I am positive he is mafia after this day where he has spent apparently all of it in the thread with nothing to say now the attention has slightly shifted, and if I choose to vote him over DLE I will vote him when I mean it. Furthermore, I don't see a point in making empty threats at this point because nobody is likely to cave to them. Declaring intent to lynch serves the same purpose except with the threat of bandwagon, which is a tradeoff I am fine with making since acidphoenix apparently fears nothing and DLE has already made a jumpy play. UltrasPlot is MIA, PokeguyNXB needs to be subbed, I have no strong desire to vote you or Yeti, I am still ruminating on Celever, I do not feel my vote on U-Turn Out will accomplish anything unless that user goes missing because it's a clear empty threat as long as UTO is active right now pending clear scumslip. L-3 is literally me and another user.frankly I think that if the two of you are village it's a real waste of an opportunity not to vote anyone, even if you 'strong scumread' them. I'd like to see you put your vote where your mouth is, so to speak (obviously outside of pushing something to L-3 or higher).
I actually cannot agree with this, simply because acidphoenix has a) refused to even ask to sub out despite substantial irl commitments b) apparently maintained activity on Pokémon Showdown! c) he continues to read this thread at least twice daily. To me that suggests acidphoenix sees something to be gained from remaining in this game, whether it's weed brownies from the host or a safe slide to victory as an ambivalently read mafia (or a lynch today, in which case he has given up). But the fact he continues to return to the thread can't only be attributed to tagging IMO, I think acidphoenix is biding his time to see whether the lynch slides from him to DLE. I think, given a dichotomy, the noobtown is PokeguyNXB. PokeguyNXB made a lot of junk excuses but I do attribute a lot of them to his personal repeatedly demonstrated fear of making mistakes and being called out on them, and he did make a couple of efforts to sincerely contribute, what I called him out for was a few moments of insincerity. I am defending PokeguyNXB here explicitly to compare and contrast to acidphoenix's completely unapologetic play. You can read this inversely, in that acidphoenix is just a brazen and defiant villager like HD and Gale as you said and PokeguyNXB is mafia trying to placate us, but the difference was Gale was actively playing (and rather aggressively) and Haunted Diamond actually responded to the lynch on them in a way that is in hindsight very noobtownie, in the defeatist vein. acidphoenix plays NOC mafia live on Pokémon Showdown!, that requires a little more quick thinking than is being exhibited here. acidphoenix has become a very solid lynch for today IMO.As for acidphoenix, I agree (and made the point already) that I'm starting to lean more towards him being noobtown in the same vein as HD/Gale/maybe Pokeguy, though if I believe that Pokeguy+acidphoenix are noobtown then that means either Yeti+jumpluff is a mafia or literally everyone else is (DLE/Celever/U-Turn Out/UltrasPlot). If he IS mafia, then I could easily see him being Walrein/U-Turn Out's partner, or Pokeguy/UltrasPlot's if one of them is mafia (and I still don't think the latter is mafia while the former I'm leaning against being mafia).
ctrl+f through the post, I already articulated my logic and will not have you twisting it disingenuously.In addition what the hell was wrong about wanting a U Turn flip? Your only major disagreement with it is that you look like mafia if he is mafia, which is explicitly true
That's not an argument, it's an observation about U-Turn Out (specifically UTO because of their logically inconsistent reads in what was a rather thoughtful post) and not you. You're twitching pretty fast though, I can give you some of my anticonvulsants if you would like. Topiramate sucks but clonazepam is good shit.And then comes in the argument that I'm Walrein's partner. Yes. It's all so clear now.
I mean I'd take it seriously if there were a significant drive to lynch me and I were town at 4:5, but I guess you're too cool to care since it's just a NOC and you were using it as a personal sandpit, hm? Maybe you don't need the clonazepam.I'm sorry I cannot take this lynch seriously; lynching me is absolutely atrocious.
I already posted that same logic concerning UncleSam and acidphoenix, I have nothing to say to it except that I posted a very clear read on Walrein and U-Turn Out that made very apparent I felt differently about the two users acontextually and could not commit as clearly to dismissing U-Turn Out as I did Walrein or you, since literally the only things we had to go off on from U-Turn Out that stood out were that townread on you and the same tactic of waffling around pretending to reconsider your stances, which were pretty mild compared to stuff we've seen from UltrasPlot etc. for a new user and relied on the prior context of Walrein's play to read and so they placed UTO as a slightly less confident bet on scum, and you have no excuse except being too cool to give a fuck, that makes you or acidphoenix (who is too nerdy to give a fuck) the better lynch, n'est-ce pas?This is exactly how a partner who has little to no express reason to outright town read their scummy partner would play the day: pray that the partner survives this lynch and just push other reads harder tomorrow.
I have no problem commenting on that as I did above because I posted a thorough analysis of Walrein and U-Turn Out that articulated my stances, none of which you have bothered to actually comment on. This is twitchy and defensive play that you are pushing onto U-Turn Out because you dislike my play but cannot justify lynching me or UncleSam, which does indeed muddy it.This is literally what you are doing with U Turn.
Then you probably know TIK about as well as I do and I posit my behaviour read is as strong in light of that information, especially if it was a reaction to defensiveness. If it was about Gale then it is less scummy.He subbed out from getting mad about Gale or for being attacked or something; I just remember it was out of frustration out of something that occurred during the day. And I really don't know TIK that well either but I feel like the meta/behavior read on him is solid despite that.
I've played with Cancerous probably twice (blah blah brain tumours), I see literally no reason to comment on his prior play except as it pertains to people's perceived relationships that remain consistent between Cancerous's and my play. If there is something you would like me to justify then throw it at me, I don't see anything particularly egregious about anything Cancerous did and so I feel confident playing strongly off my own cards. Also I'm obviously not going to dispute valid reasoning and I find it hilarious that you attack me for that because if I invented something that would somehow make U-Turn Out anything but the optimal lynch from your PoV (since you cannot lynch me or UncleSam and previous stuff articulated about the two of you, lmk if I need to expand) you would attack that too because it's disingenuous. Instead, I dispute the conclusions as unsound and the premises that distort the reasoning (e.g. directly explaining how I felt about U Turn Out every time I was asked in far more detail than was even wanted).My original Cancerous read was largely just a gut reaction read that you and no one else have done anything to dispute the reasons behind.
No, you're not, but you're spending a lot more time on me than you are U-Turn Out or Celever with a clear setup for a Day 3 lynch on me in the decently probable event U Turn Out would flip scum. You're also not going to waste your time on a lynch people have already explicitly stated they disagree with when you are already in a precarious position and there exist two users who are other popular lynch targets, you keep making one-note arguments that do not allow for other scenarios or the behaviour of other players, theoryminding from a position of absolute control, but you do not have it and have even admitted to rescinding it in order to let Sam and Celever lead, as Yeti pointed out. People are following either UncleSam or Yeti depending on the team they play for I guess. I think your idea that you could've mislynched Spiffy Day 2 or that he was the most sensible mislynch to go for was categorical nonsense unless you had both Yeti and UncleSam cooperating with you, which I doubt.I'm not going to waste my time on a lynch on someone I'm less sure is mafia than U-Turn or Celever.
Right, because you have to have me partnered with U-Turn Out for your posts to make any sense and the clearest relationship in this game is my apparent reciprocal alliance with Yeti, as discussed.I don't see Yeti with anyone even if I find her play to not be obvtown
Did you, like, read that post? It was only a couple of paragraphs so like...Your later characterization of how I want a U Turn lynch "just for the flip" is ridiculous and would be as ridiculous for making the same argument about you for saying
You could've, you know, actually refuted anything I said and justified it as anything but a lynch for the flip. Clearly it's disingenuous to posit that you want it just for the flip since you argued U Turn Out is scum, I argued that it is a suboptimal play when you have multiple scumreads and you have routinely disregarded to comment on whether to prioritise flips or likelihood of hitting scum. I also think it is suspect because of the specific scenarios you laid out from your PoV that UTO is scum and then having jack shit new to add if UTO is town in context of my commentary on your positions with me and Sam.That doesn't negate the idea of lynching U Turn Out and you know I know that so let's not have that conversation...
I applaud you on your original reads on acidphoenix, PokeguyNXB, Celever, and U-Turn Out.We were probably lynching a mafian until you/pluff decided in a moment of either paranoia or opportunity to try voting for me despite me being town all fucking game, having fantastic town reads, and adding pressure to literally every player that people think is currently mafia bar myself
hi that was me.I am going to compare and contrast to one of the other more experienced players in this game, Walrein, in order to make my point a bit clearer. Walrein also oft protests about his activity and has at least put his money where his mouth is by requesting a sub. 1. He has 25 posts and a lot of them are small metacommentaries. But when he makes actual posts they are generally thought-out. By thought-out I do not even mean sound arguments, just that he (very clearly wants to demonstrate) he has put in effort in them. This in itself has been commented on as coming off as disingenuous and excessively considered. I forget who said that tho. However Walrein did post an entire reads post two weeks ago (lol). Unfortunately I cannot ask him to comment on his DLE read because he will just post asking to be subbed again. 2. Like DLE he entirely picks on inactives and Pokeguy. But he is never on the offensive, always on the defensive. Do I think this behaviour looks excessively clean? No not really. It's lazy and ambivalent (on DLE himself he spat out a paragraph of waffling nullread that advocated against a lynch due to not yielding info, lol, but that was two weeks ago so... you see my problem) but it does suggest some intent to engage regardless of whether he is town or mafia, which is why I am using Walrein as the illustrative point. To continue this line of thought I need to know if/who Walrein subbed in for [anyone]. But perhaps you can see the point I am making, that DLE's playstyle does not IMO demonstrate very serious intent to engage from the PoV he is a townie whereas it very much does from the PoV he is scum. The inactivity does add a lot of noise to that ratio and DLE knows it.
so to actually answer the questions I think DLE/PokeguyNXB may be one mafia. This is entirely a hypothesis but the strongest absence of a relationship I see in this game that sets off alarm bells is DLE/PGNXB. Oddly enough as I searched for ButteredToast-related posts this came up as acidphoenix's theory first, and he also laid down the theory originally that that team went after Spiffy. Which I find curious, because my other guess for DLE's scum partner would be acidphoenix. So now I am hesitant writing this because acidphoenix is a reasonable guess for one of the four scum, and if DLE killed Spiffy I am not sure who killed ButteredToast. acidphoenix perhaps with someone like Celever or an uninvested Walrein for the other scum? Yeti or UncleSam would micromanage that kill, I see the Spiffy kill likelier coming from one of them or DLE/PGNXB compared to the ButteredToast kill. TBH I am not sure I agree 100% that Celever would kill either of those people except that he is smart enough to know its more important to get a guaranteed kill than remove a good player. Spiffy actually is an optimal target in that case but only with hindsight, if you do not think he is the other mafia. Another possibility is whoever the fuck subbed in for TIK, TIK was an absolutely good kill that night IMO, he was unusually active for his standards and everyone was fsr identifying him as town and I am not 100% sure why and I find it remarkable that he did not die.
thank you very much walrein, I can now finish my interview with sam
scumreads: Da Letter El (discussed rather thoroughly), acidphoenix, U-Turn Out
hesitant scumreads: PokeguyNXB, Celever
townreads: agree with the logic that discussing and analysing and isolating townies is not good play at this stage, everyone is possible scum anyway fmpov
why u-turn out? discussion of walrein + hannahh's bullshit which I 100% think was the reaction of a scum who freaks out when she realises she has to be active + somehow has a strong townread on da letter el for 'great contribution' but a nullread on sam. however u-turn out had a strong start (thats the only terrible logic in their reads and that is why i find that disturbing) and while i think absolutely their previous iterations have to be held against them i would like to give them the chance to continue posting while dle and acidphoenix are still itg and may yield a flip between the two of them. the only thing that alarms me is literally everyone thinks acidphoenix is scum
also ty yeti, i dont think that changes my post very much except noting that pokeguynxb has kind of thrown his hands up helplessly today whereas yesterday he seemed fine with his epicmafia deflect strategy but it is good to know
jumpluff said:I only want to lynch U-Turn Out purely because of how Walrein played. Walrein's reads posts literally attacked people for being ambivalent as a sign of scumminess then made a total of about two definitive conclusions on anyone. Like I said though I think there is merit to keeping U-Turn Out, Celever, PokeguyNXB when he gets subbed in the game.
jumpluff said:I stated over and over again I didn't want to pursue the U-turn Out lynch today because I felt we had superior targets, namely you and possibly acidphoenix. I understand your inference because I feel similarly about Sam shifting the lynch from you back onto acidphoenix originally. But I think my reasoning is valid, because I have two people I am almost certain are mafia and one person I believe is more dangerous and also less useful in a state of non-contribution. U-turn Out has just subbed in and may give us some more information to go off yet. A flip on you would be absolutely fantastic. At this stage we can't lynch for shits and giggles so I'd rather lynch the person I feel is the safest to lynch and on all counts to me that is you.
I agree it was not a good example, especially after I went through every single post and saw how actually much of nothing they amounted to. I think the comparison is still pretty illustrative of the differences in your playstyle but does not lead to the conclusion that Walrein and UTO are not scum. I don't really have a good inactive user to compare to. So let's try the reverse comparison. These are, for the first time you've responded to me, thorough posts where you are engaging with reasoning and attempting to delineate the conclusions of every thought trajectory. This is exactly what was deficient in Walrein's posts as you pointed out at the time and I pointed out in my analysis. We do not disagree on this, that Walrein's posts seemed to be coming from a place of having a pregenerated conclusion and looking for a way to present it as a logical thought train. I did note of course that Walrein's play was shitty and ambivalent, including regarding you, and that I didn't think it so much pointed to cleanness so much as to either an attempt to appear engaged or be engaged. We agree that Walrein was not substantially engaged in the scumhunt. But I do not like how you mischaracterise that remark as a townread on Walrein, I think if you are coming from the place that 'this is an argument against me with many holes' it is fair. You'll notice later I started to explicitly expound upon my thoughts that the mafia were actually substantially disengaged as a whole in my posts as I went through more people's post histories and began to attempt to find alternative scenarios.Those posts read as someone who felt obligated to put down reads that he didn't actually believe but were thrown together based on his experiences with mafia and what some behaviors might mean. This is not pro-town to put in effort into overly thought out posts when the post itself doesn't actually have any beliefs in it. Walrein goes straight from calling me town for a bunch of meta reasons to saying "oh I see what is being said about Gale and DLE and can agree with it" in such a way that it doesn't demonstrate a genuine consideration of "If DLE is mafia, then Gale is mafia with him."
Yep, good distinction. Unfortunately you can see why I don't buy openly admitting to laziness as a self-clean in a game where probably all of the mafia are doing it in some form or fashion. A serious attempt to engage with this lynch is more than acidphoenix or Celever mustered though.The scummy things in my behavior are not then pushing my reads on day 2 and not articulating what reads I agreed with on Celever on day 1, both of which I didn't do out of laziness.
That's 'cause I think Walrein is far likelier to be the Spiffy killer and I think you could have killed either and it would have been an intelligent play from either PoV, but also the Spiffy kill would be a very good move from you. But as I stated I can see either possibility as possible. The characterisation of disinterested was specifically to explain why Walrein in that case would have allowed the ButteredToast kill and not gone for a superior kill, in this scenario using those motives it is UltrasPlot he should have killed and not ButteredToast, or even you if he does not think you are enemy scum. I do not see Celever as the Spiffy killer but I do see him as a viable ButteredToast killer. I am convinced acidphoenix is scum and my position on this has only gone stronger the more I've seen him idle in this thread.Post #4 you float "disinterested Walrein" as a potential scum but moderately down on your list.
Regardless, here is the first main objection you give to lynching u turn which we're simply 2 ships passing in the night on. My argument is that we have more than enough to lynch him. Your argument is that we do not have enough information to lynch him and thus should let him keep posting. I doubt I am going to be able to convince you how much evidence is needed to be "concrete" but suffice it to say that I feel confident in a U Turn lynch.
Yes and no. What I am struggling to do is coherently integrate U Turn Out's posts into Walrein's position. It is why my analysis hesitated after ripping into Walrein. Yes, I'm aware they're the same player. There's also a numerical likelihood here (which I'm not sure I had actually done the numbers on at the time). I'm not interested in acontextual analysis at all, I do not want to divorce UTO from Walrein and as I have noted they are playing from the same position with regard to reads which is likely due to process of elimination. But you seem so confident that U-Turn Out's posts themselves are scummy in a way that I do not see, I don't know if I'm misreading you here. So of course second-guessing is inevitable until I see a pattern of behaviour from UTO, which is starting to develop rather manifestly now they have >2 posts. But I digress, because that is not what I want to know about your argument, although I'm very happy to discuss U-Turn Out themselves too. Basically: Is to you the evidence on Walrein sufficient enough to ignore U-Turn Out's more reasonable initial play/attribute it to U-Turn out showing some skill, or do you read U-Turn Out's play differently on its own merits? Not an exclusive or, I don't know if you are considering them disparately at all. And to you it might seem strange to consider them disparately since they are the 'same' player. But to me when someone subs out to find the points on which they agree and disagree consistently with the person they subbed in for is to find the most conclusive evidence about someone and their innate knowledge. The same way me subbing in for Cancerous informs your read on me and U-Turn Out but that is primarily characterised by my preference of lynching you and reads on UTO originally being weak and ambivalent, not Cancerous's play, I guess. Of course, Walrein was a hell of a lot more active than Cancerous. IDK if that analogy makes sense.Still weird you seem to buy that Walrein is mafia and yet don't want to lynch his sub. If Walrein is mafia, so is his sub.
I think my logic trains are implicit in the fact that my posts developed specifically as I stated I was going through Walrein's entire post history.Slight scumtell for not having this development between "slightly anti-town plays but in a pro-town active package" developed in thread anywhere but a believable enough train to follow.
(this is unclesam)If I had to choose between a mislynch that revealed who everyone in the game was publicly vs a scumlynch that kept everyone in the dark, I'm pretty sure I'd choose the mislynch option at this point since, again, the village doesn't have the numbers to solo win, and so is going to have to win via diplomacy and forward thinking to some extent.
I don't get this at all. Are you saying that I'm acidphoenix's partner, that he tried to bandwagon me 12 hours into the game, that we've consistently read each other as among the scummiest in the game, and that because I indicate that I'm thinking U-Turn Out might be a stronger lynch than DLE (and both being stronger than acidphoenix at this point in time), I'm somehow defending my partner from 'an inevitable buss'? Cause I don't buy how this makes any sense from any perspective. Could you both clarify exactly what you're saying about my play as well as why you think this makes sense?jumpluff said:Sam: Has the clearest motive if he is playing aggressively against acidphoenix but switching aggression in an attempt to save acidphoenix from his inevitable bussing. Warming to the UTO lynch, which both DLE and I are discussing.
aka 'WHY MEEEEEEE?' He provides no basis for thinking the others are mafia, he just asks that they 'be considered', presumably solely in an effort to get attention off of himself.U-Turn Out said:Da Letter El, I really don't see why you're pushing so hard for a lynch. When you first posted after you came back, you said that discussion was fine and it was all going smooth. Next two posts, you say that everyone is "bad" or just mafia, and then just straight out try to lynch me without hesitation. What happened to all your other scum reads? Celever and acidphoenix. You've gone full out offensive against me, and haven't said a word about the other two. Do you consider whether they would be a better lynch?
You only lynch once that's the motto U-Turn YOLODa Letter El, I really don't see why you're pushing so hard for a lynch. When you first posted after you came back, you said that discussion was fine and it was all going smooth. Next two posts, you say that everyone is "bad" or just mafia, and then just straight out try to lynch me without hesitation. What happened to all your other scum reads? Celever and acidphoenix. You've gone full out offensive against me, and haven't said a word about the other two.
See you got it, but you didn't get it, sorry I should have established what my point was in talking about you and acidphoenix.I don't get this at all. Are you saying that I'm acidphoenix's partner, that he tried to bandwagon me 12 hours into the game, that we've consistently read each other as among the scummiest in the game, and that because I indicate that I'm thinking U-Turn Out might be a stronger lynch than DLE (and both being stronger than acidphoenix at this point in time), I'm somehow defending my partner from 'an inevitable buss'? Cause I don't buy how this makes any sense from any perspective. Could you both clarify exactly what you're saying about my play as well as why you think this makes sense?
I think you are likelier to be town [2] than DLE [1, 2], but if DLE is town then you are almost definitely scum [1]. From your point of view it is very reasonable that DLE and I are both scum [3] but not from many other PoVs. The reason I again floated US and acidphoenix was because I believe PokeguyNXB is a townie pending further development. There is a contradiction in that my partner in this scenario is supposed to be U-Turn Out and that accounts for two of the scum in this scenario, you are the third in this reductio ad absudum scenario because the person who is likeliest to be town if I am scum is Da Letter El yet there is nothing to suggest you two are allied and plenty to suggest you are not (and you also look a lot worse if DLE is town), and then the fourth has to be acidphoenix because guess who is the clearest scum in this game. Yet the thing that implicates me most strongly as scum is my relationship with U-Turn Out, so we cannot simply say 'well then acidphoenix is jumpluff's partner'. The unaccounted for players are Celever and UltrasPlot. UltrasPlot would be the second candidate for your partner due to your buddying, this was not established in what I said, It is not watertight, but it is meant to demonstrate how unreasonable through process of elimination I find the idea of the me and U-Turn Out scumteam from your PoV, there is simply no reasonable candidate for your partner (don't bother to refute why UltrasPlot isn't your partner, Yeti already brought it up and your opinions on the matter are known, try and read the intention of what I'm saying which I have made explicit). Or do you disagree, do you think there is a case where Yeti is town and I am scum where you are plausibly town or scum, assuming acidphoenix is scum because if this is not a premise of your scenario it is ridiculous.Let's abstract, I'm bored. In that case, where Yeti is town and I am scum, from nearly everyone else's PoV my partner would probably be U-Turn Out [0] as Da Letter El suggested. Da Letter El becomes much townier with a remaining possibility of him and an inactive as scumteam. I do not believe UncleSam and Da Letter El are on the same team, both generally and in this specific scenario where I am scum. [1] UncleSam and acidphoenix could be the second scumteam but I'm inclined to believe US that he didn't kill Spiffy and US is one user I do not see that ButteredToast kill coming from. [2] I would anticipate a kill on an experienced player or UltrasPlot. I think this scenario is shit unless DLE is also scum (either of Walrein and DLE could've been either kill with evidence pointing towards both), which is fine by US [3] but I doubt everyone else can agree both of us are.
This reads clearly like a reiterated scumread to me in context of their previous remarks on acidphoenix, what am I missing that makes it so remarkable? It's also the pattern of behaviour everyone else has observed in acidphoenix. You are correct that is regurgitated rationale, but I don't see anything interesting in that because Yeti wasn't the only one who made those comments, I made those comments, you made those comments, I think Celever made these comments, DLE made some of those comments about the flip as did you, are we all regurgitating each other? What else is there to say about acidphoenix? I have nothing else to say about acidphoenix than what I have already said personally. It is consensus opinion which is I suppose a rather easy way to slide back into the shadows but like I already observed that is a thing with this lynch where all the prospective targets are just going to push the lynch onto the most convenient target who isn't themselves.UncleSam, right now I think the best option would be lynching acidphoenix, he really hasn't been contributing much to the thread. It feel like he's just posting once in a while for people to make sure he's there, then lurk and see how to react appropriately. his posts are kind of in clumps, like sudden bursts of activity, and they aren't really moving discussion along. The problem is that you can't really pair him with anyone; he's been going solo this entire time. then again, his mafia partner could just try to bus him and get some trust from the town; it would be really easy to do that right now, especially with all the discussion revolving around DLE, jumpluff, and myself.
This is literally what everyone else has said and literally all I see to say about acidphoenix and the point UTO has stuck to from the first, and my secondary point of criticism of UTO themselves has been their continuation of Walrein's unoriginal and lazy reads, so it's not like there's anything new for me to say about that.acidphoenix: his bandwagons made me suspicious earlier in the game, and he didn't add much reasoning to his votes. Posts very little, and only has one useful post. When I saw that he said he would make a new reads post, I was hoping that he would start contributing more. Instead I just see his original posreads that barely changed at all. I remember earlygame when people said one of Gale, HD, and acid was almost certain to be mafia. HD and Gale flipped town so where does that leave acidphoenix? As a scum. He saw what happened to HD who had similar behavior to acid, yet he is still trying to get away with low activity.
I agree with this and requested further elaboration from DLE actually in my post, no more comment needed.In one of your posts you say that all my contributions indicate I'm mafia, yet I never see any of my contributions in your posts being mentioned. Care to elaborate on that?
This is interesting because while I may be misunderstanding what seesawing is my problem with UTO is that there is no seesawing except whenever Walrein/UTO try to lay out logic, I am more concerned that UTO literally shows no change in opinion ever except defensively towards DLE which was my primary problem with Walrein as well. No scumhunting, continuing to push a fixed set of points. Yet to me the discussions we have had since I subbed in have been remarkably revealing and generated a lot of possible talking points. I cannot see how you could see the conversation DLE and I had, or the conversations Sam and I have had, or the conversations Sam and Yeti have had as not worth adjusting or acknowledging the wealth of new information made available. This is an honest remark by UTO but not a good fact. Why has UTO not placed a read on me at the first available opportunity? All I have done is post and post and post, if you read 1/8 of it you would have enough content to make some form of read, UTO's initial reads were wishy washy on Cancerous because Cancerous had been MIA. Yet I have rectified this problem and played in the exact opposite way Cancerous has. This has been striking to everyone active but UTO?The only arguments I hear from you is that my flip will give information, and that I've been seesawing. I haven't really seesawed.
+At that time, you were still a pretty solid townread and I didn't really have that many worries about you, since I didn't think you would jump in and be so aggressive.
+What happened to all your other scum reads? Celever and acidphoenix. You've gone full out offensive against me, and haven't said a word about the other two.
Now we return to the DLE townread, which I have repeatedly stated was not a good read based on comparison to the UncleSam read. So let's just say the primary marker here is aggression. Have I not played absurdly aggressively? Why will UTO not comment honestly upon me, as I have done for them? Am I town or am I scum because I yelled at someone else you think is scum, UTO? So the townread has been rescinded in a hypocritical and purely defensive manner. Again here is a golden opportunity to throw me at DLE and yet does not do it, I wipe my hands of that.I know I mentioned DLE being town before, and people might just see this as seesawing, but the problem I see right now is that DLE has put all the attention on me
What happened to all your other scum reads? Celever and acidphoenix.
Celever and acidphoenix are just chilling in the background with nothing much to worry about, which is why I think that DLE + acidphoenix/Celever is perfectly possible (more acid than celever).
Now from the reads post here?I can't really see DLE going with anyone else, but if celever/acid flips scum im going to be looking at DLE.
Celever: I don't really know about him. On one hand, he's generating discussion (being one of the most active in Day 1) and calling out people who need to post. However, I dont like his buddying with UncleSam. I feel like his reaction to HD was WIFOM, especially since no one was really accusing Celever of anything earlygame. His "helpful" posts (such as breaking down the elimination system for Gale) kind of seem like he just wants to look helpful, which is definitely suspicious to me. As said before, he's jumped to many people accusing them of strange behavior, and kind of ignores the person earlier accused until someone mentions that name again. He has attacked many users and has been very defensive. He has been contributing and pressuring people who need to post which is definitely a plus, but I don't really think all of his posts are really that helpful. Weak Townread/Weak Scumread
PokeguyNXB: He's very inactive, and I have seen literally 0 contributions from him. I understand that irl stuff can be in the way of contributing in a mafia game, but you've used that excuse wayyyyyy too many times. You also need to post your reads, me being subbed in and Cancerous going to be subbed out isn't huge; there are still many players that you can at least give your opinions on. Moderate Scumread
This is the true regurgitated argument, it makes sense fmpov but not from UTO's. UTO, aren't you a townie? Don't you have scumreads? Aren't there people aggressively attacking you? Why can you see clear flip logic for Celever and acidphoenix but not... yourself, when from your PoV you know a lynch on you is a mislynch and you will always flip town?We really don't get much info from my flip at all; jumpluff is the only person who would be affected by my flip as you say she would be my partner if I was mafia.
This is meant to read:The unaccounted for players are Celever and UltrasPlot. UltrasPlot would be the second candidate for your partner due to your buddying, this was not established in what I said, It is not watertight, but it is meant to demonstrate how unreasonable through process of elimination I find the idea of the me and U-Turn Out scumteam from your PoV
Personally this struck me as a scummy lynch. acidphoenix is probably the safest person to pick but considering there has been doubt expressed that this isn't just Haunted Diamond 2.0, I find it weird he picks this guy as his lynch.UncleSam, right now I think the best option would be lynching acidphoenix, he really hasn't been contributing much to the thread. It feel like he's just posting once in a while for people to make sure he's there, then lurk and see how to react appropriately. his posts are kind of in clumps, like sudden bursts of activity, and they aren't really moving discussion along. The problem is that you can't really pair him with anyone; he's been going solo this entire time. then again, his mafia partner could just try to bus him and get some trust from the town; it would be really easy to do that right now, especially with all the discussion revolving around DLE, jumpluff, and myself.
Interesting you would say this. I feel like the fact you suddenly have these big tl;dr posts is pretty defensive. Either his partner is one of the other people proposed for a lynch (meaning I don't think UTO or jumpluff are his partner) or he's worried about all the posts saying he would be a viable target. After so long disengaged and sparsely posting to suddenly fix that makes it seem like you have something, someone, to protect.Da Letter El said:2. Being defensive over offensive is generally a mafia tell, not a town tell with some moderate exceptions.
UncleSam i already mentioned why I think acidphoenix is a good lynch. Yeti has pointed out about him not really having a partner, but I feel like at this point of the game the scum aren't really trying to defend one another, but just cast a suspicion on someone else so his partner can go hide in the shadows again, which I was thinking DLE was doing. As jumpluff mentioned before, acidphoenix is the safest lynch and I feel the same way. I don't really he's going to be posting soon, and I don't see a reason to keep him any longer; no more information will really come out from him. I don't see the need to risk a mislynch because acidphoenix is definitely scum and we don't lose much from lynching him.Sorry were you quoting me to indicate that you agree with my general thoughts about the lynch jumpluff? It's sort of hard to tell, you just sort of throw it out there at the end of your post.
I don't get this at all. Are you saying that I'm acidphoenix's partner, that he tried to bandwagon me 12 hours into the game, that we've consistently read each other as among the scummiest in the game, and that because I indicate that I'm thinking U-Turn Out might be a stronger lynch than DLE (and both being stronger than acidphoenix at this point in time), I'm somehow defending my partner from 'an inevitable buss'? Cause I don't buy how this makes any sense from any perspective. Could you both clarify exactly what you're saying about my play as well as why you think this makes sense?
I really didn't like U-Turn Out's last post. He regurgitated what Yeti said previously about acidphoenix, recommends lynching him anyway not because he thinks he is scum but because 'he really hasn't been contributing much to the thread', and also provides this little gem:
aka 'WHY MEEEEEEE?' He provides no basis for thinking the others are mafia, he just asks that they 'be considered', presumably solely in an effort to get attention off of himself.
I'm surprised jumpluff didn't tear this post apart, did you simply not see it previously/are commenting on it now?
U-Turn Out why do you think Celever and acidphoenix are good lynches? Why do you want people to focus on others and rather than your own play? If you're not scum and presumably neither me nor DLE are scum based on your reaction there, then who is?
U-Turn Out's post and jumpluff's subsequently ignoring it looks really weird to me.
Since I think I'm currently voting DLE I'm going to unvote and Vote U-Turn Out.
Oh and acidphoenix I see you active lurking this thread. Make a real post today and give reads on U-Turn Out, DLE, and jumpluff please.
I agree that the lynch should not be pushed to majority until UltrasPlot/Pokeguy get subs or it becomes obvious they will definitely not be getting subs. Requesting an update on this situation from The Diabolic Gift (as well as an answer to my previous question about scum kill priorities and them killing each other).
jumpluff: there was a long period of discussion where I was not active between two of my posts, and that's when you mostly started talking. When I got back, I felt like I needed to respond to DLE and I didn't really look at the other posts in great detail, so I'm sorry if you feel like I've been ignoring all the posts other than DLE's lynch. I'm getting strong town vibes from your posting; you seem to go into a lot of detail into a variety of topics, and you pretty much started all the discussion that's happening right now which I see as town. I like how you're looking at different PoVs when posting, it really helps others do the same. Cancerous's slight inactivity was one of the things I worried about, but this is no longer a problem, you have been very active. I would appreciate it if you could clarify what you are implying with my interactions with Celever; the reason I put him with DLE and not UncleSam in that post was because 1. The post was more about DLE and the possiblities that he could be and 2. He hasn't been really buddying anyone recently (tbf it's possible it's because he isn't too active) , but I felt like DLE was trying to cover him up. You mentioned about a part of my post that you thought was a scumslip. Those arguments that I listed were from DLE, and I was putting them in my post as how I think that he was implying; he was implying that I was mafia and you would be too if I flipped mafia; therefore I put it like that. The reason I really haven't pushed PokeguyNXB as much as you thought I would was because 1. he was getting a sub and 2. I really didn't know about his irl circumstances that detailed; the fact that he requested to sub out makes me believe that everything he said about his circumstance was honest and that he was actually struggling to put a post simply because of time. I would also like to hear more from his sub before I make more comments on him.My quote on you UncleSam was supposed to preface my discussion about your post but I accidentally pasted it in at the end and then no post editing. You can see I kind of trailed off incoherently there anyway since I got my scanner working and had to submit some PDFs to my schooll.
See you got it, but you didn't get it, sorry I should have established what my point was in talking about you and acidphoenix.
No I'm not genuinely suggesting in that comment that acidphoenix is your partner, that's literally in the same list where I claimed acidphoenix is my likeliest partner as well and in context of breaking down an emergent dynamic I see within the three of us that I believe is worth noting because we are basically using these users as props to argue over and push the lynch in our preferred direction. I don't give a fuck about posting observations which implicate me or you as scum in hypothetical situations if they are internally consistent with hypothetical observations on other people, the same way you didn't give a fuck about posting observations about me and Yeti when you were a lot more positive about my play. Yes I implied it's possible you're bussing acidphoenix, I think I already remarked upon that before implicitly in another post? I'm not a cop, sir. However I didn't specify who is bussing acidphoenix because there is zero question that if acidphoenix is lynched today their partner will be bussing them.
It is a fact and you acknowledged it that you are warming to the U-Turn Out lynch (and are now willing to commit to it) and have changed direction from both DLE and acidphoenix. I should've included DLE in your scenario tho. What I'm saying with that: I 100% think somebody wants to manipulate this lynch in a way where they lampshade their partner as scum but redirect attention onto others in hopes of getting off a mislynch instead, something that has been observed multiple times and I have been personally accused of with U-Turn Out because I didn't want to lynch them when I subbed in, none of their posts were particularly questionable except the single thing I mentioned which also bothered me about a player I felt was more worthy of attention at the time (DLE). What I'm saying about your play is exactly what I said about your play in my post before:
I think you are likelier to be town [2] than DLE [1, 2], but if DLE is town then you are almost definitely scum [1]. From your point of view it is very reasonable that DLE and I are both scum [3] but not from many other PoVs. The reason I again floated US and acidphoenix was because I believe PokeguyNXB is a townie pending further development. There is a contradiction in that my partner in this scenario is supposed to be U-Turn Out and that accounts for two of the scum in this scenario, you are the third in this reductio ad absudum scenario because the person who is likeliest to be town if I am scum is Da Letter El yet there is nothing to suggest you two are allied and plenty to suggest you are not (and you also look a lot worse if DLE is town), and then the fourth has to be acidphoenix because guess who is the clearest scum in this game. Yet the thing that implicates me most strongly as scum is my relationship with U-Turn Out, so we cannot simply say 'well then acidphoenix is jumpluff's partner'. The unaccounted for players are Celever and UltrasPlot. UltrasPlot would be the second candidate for your partner due to your buddying, this was not established in what I said, It is not watertight, but it is meant to demonstrate how unreasonable through process of elimination I find the idea of the me and U-Turn Out scumteam from your PoV, there is simply no reasonable candidate for your partner (don't bother to refute why UltrasPlot isn't your partner, Yeti already brought it up and your opinions on the matter are known, try and read the intention of what I'm saying which I have made explicit). Or do you disagree, do you think there is a case where Yeti is town and I am scum where you are plausibly town or scum, assuming acidphoenix is scum because if this is not a premise of your scenario it is ridiculous.
Therefore a weak RAA on the idea that we are both scum together, and from both of our povs... There is still a possibility you are scum that cannot be disregarded because I know I am not scum, but I think I've shown a pretty consistent trust for your play that is heavily informed by assuming through elimination DLE and/or WalreinUTO must be scum.
And in my post that you specifically responded, I am suggesting then that you are unlikely to be scum, and that I cannot back away from my suspicion of DLE and have few reasons to do so, but I challenged DLE to find a situation wherein he and I are both town by the exact same logic. I believe I have already commented explicitly that I believe there is no objective reason for your play before I subbed in if you are scum, unless you are playing completely perfectionist. So clearly while I have a diluted read on you I think it is both inferable and clear that I do not strongly consider you scum at this point in the game.
I've had like no sleep in the last few days to the point of literal nausea and missed most of the U-turn Out post because most of it is immediately benign or implicit, but yes I saw it when I replied, I thought DLE's was more worthwhile to respond to and I'd already remarked that I would comment on yours. I found his comment that I haven't been 'protecting him' irritating because it's patently illogical and an attempt to deconstruct a lynch they think is predicated on me apparently buddying them, also because it doesn't actually distance himself from me but distances me from them (if that makes sense) which is not coherent, but not really worthwhile writing more in that post to specifically address. Also I think you are pointing out the entire wrong problems with the post, let me fix your reading comprehension for you (and U-turn Out, I suppose).
This reads clearly like a reiterated scumread to me in context of their previous remarks on acidphoenix, what am I missing that makes it so remarkable? It's also the pattern of behaviour everyone else has observed in acidphoenix. You are correct that is regurgitated rationale, but I don't see anything interesting in that because Yeti wasn't the only one who made those comments, I made those comments, you made those comments, I think Celever made these comments, DLE made some of those comments about the flip as did you, are we all regurgitating each other? What else is there to say about acidphoenix? I have nothing else to say about acidphoenix than what I have already said personally. It is consensus opinion which is I suppose a rather easy way to slide back into the shadows but like I already observed that is a thing with this lynch where all the prospective targets are just going to push the lynch onto the most convenient target who isn't themselves.
This is from UTO's first post:
This is literally what everyone else has said and literally all I see to say about acidphoenix and the point UTO has stuck to from the first, and my secondary point of criticism of UTO themselves has been their continuation of Walrein's unoriginal and lazy reads, so it's not like there's anything new for me to say about that.
I agree with this and requested further elaboration from DLE actually in my post, no more comment needed.
Okay now here are the actual problems with the posts, which require me to actually fine tooth comb it (and I've been up all day and night so I think you can probably excuse me for not doing that immediately, especially since after I wrote that post I had to do stuff for school as I stated). As you can see in my post I explicitly acknowledged that I saw UTO's post (straight after waking up, which wasn't when I made my post, so, yeah ,at a glance I don't think that post is remotely awful and certainly not for the reasons you gave, which dominate the bulk of the post overtly), but I don't remember where I was going with the 'two possible interpretations' remark. I think it had to do with defensiveness and aggression...
This is interesting because while I may be misunderstanding what seesawing is my problem with UTO is that there is no seesawing except whenever Walrein/UTO try to lay out logic, I am more concerned that UTO literally shows no change in opinion ever except defensively towards DLE which was my primary problem with Walrein as well. No scumhunting, continuing to push a fixed set of points. Yet to me the discussions we have had since I subbed in have been remarkably revealing and generated a lot of possible talking points. I cannot see how you could see the conversation DLE and I had, or the conversations Sam and I have had, or the conversations Sam and Yeti have had as not worth adjusting or acknowledging the wealth of new information made available. This is an honest remark by UTO but not a good fact. Why has UTO not placed a read on me at the first available opportunity? All I have done is post and post and post, if you read 1/8 of it you would have enough content to make some form of read, UTO's initial reads were wishy washy on Cancerous because Cancerous had been MIA. Yet I have rectified this problem and played in the exact opposite way Cancerous has. This has been striking to everyone active but UTO?
+
+
Now we return to the DLE townread, which I have repeatedly stated was not a good read based on comparison to the UncleSam read. So let's just say the primary marker here is aggression. Have I not played absurdly aggressively? Why will UTO not comment honestly upon me, as I have done for them? Am I town or am I scum because I yelled at someone else you think is scum, UTO? So the townread has been rescinded in a hypocritical and purely defensive manner. Again here is a golden opportunity to throw me at DLE and yet does not do it, I wipe my hands of that.
I don't care about the acidphoenix shit because UTO is literally answering a question you asked, Sam, and like I said I didn't read that as anything but 'I still think acidphoenix is totes scum'. Who cares what UTO said about acidphoenix being the same thing as everyone else thinks about acidphoenix when there is literally nothing else to infer from acidphoenix's behaviour? I realise you're talking about deflection, but deflecting to acidphoenix isn't the problem, since like I stated I interpreted upon reading UTO's post the reiteration of the acidphoenix scumread. Your characterisation of the post as 'why me, lynch someone else' is completely accurate and fair, except using acidphoenix as justification for that isn't really because what else is UTO going to say when DLE hasn't presented any specific accusations against them and you asked them who they want to lynch? The problem you sorta got but didn't correctl yidentify IMO is the defensive aggro towards DLE and primarily what UTO said about Celever (HMMMMMM, HMMMMM, HMMMMMMM), and what UTO did not say about Celever, a user who is in a far more interesting position right now.
Now from the reads post here?
Since then Celever has made (worth noting, anyway) only this post: which was primarily in response to me but had reads and plenty of information, and not gonna lie I literally forgot Celever asked me to talk about him and UltrasPlot, so soon(tm).
So why would U-Turn Out push DLE's scumreads instead of his own stronger scumread on PokeguyNXB? What happened to PokeguyNXB? Is it because I changed MY opinion on PokeguyNXB? I'm literally the only one who's had a rethink on PGNXB iirc, lol.
Why would Celever flipping scum make DLE more suspicious than UncleSam, who goes unmentioned in that post? (see my bolding) Where is the substantiation for the Celever and DLE association other than the italics which also perfectly apply to PGNXB? The why me stuff is terrible but because UTO is not coming from a sincere place as a villager (in a post where 1/2 of the content is about who the best lynch is) but a purely defensive and instinctive one (I have one more point of evidence in favour of this which I left until last for dramatic tension~). Villagers do why me too, but they use their own scumreads (as I stated in fairness UTO had nothing explicit to defend themselves against, it is this response in absence of that that is quite remarkable).
So talk scum to me, @U Turn Out. What changed with Celever? What changed with Cancerous (myself), if anything? Has your nullread on UncleSam changed in any way recently?
And explain this astonishing scumslip which I am not sure if Sam left there to see if I'd point it out or just didn't notice lol,
This is the true regurgitated argument, it makes sense fmpov but not from UTO's. UTO, aren't you a townie? Don't you have scumreads? Aren't there people aggressively attacking you? Why can you see clear flip logic for Celever and acidphoenix but not... yourself, when from your PoV you know a lynch on you is a mislynch and you will always flip town?
Again not voting, I do not want UltrasPlot reappearing and jumping on anything and I cannot place a vote that would not catalyse a bandwagon. I would like to know the deadline situation though. Right now I am fine with lynching U-Turn Out, DLE, or acidphoenix, and willing to consider Celever since I forgot to reply to Celever's post and as yet clearly have not done a breakdown on that user. None of the main flips provide useful information for me except maybe the DLE flip. So to decide there I have to think utilitarian, gross. I think acidphoenix is the safest lynch and DLE and UTO are probably approximately safe lynches.
Sorry I sound so snippy in my last few posts, I've had a really exhausting set of days and am not doing too great physically.