Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Force Majeure]

Another thing that might make Tornadus-T S-Rank is its fantastic performance on Rain teams; Hurricane's accuracy is no longer a problem under Rain, and the grass resist is fantastic because you will be using at least one of Kabutops, Omastar, and especially M-Swampert or Seismitoad. Bonus points for pairing excellently with M-Scizor (the best rain Mega imo) and providing Knock Off/U-Turn support which Oma and Kingdra in particular really enjoy.

I can't stress enough how easily Tornadus-T clicks with rain. I'm not sure if it's performance in rain is baked in to its A+ ranking, but it's the third most "must-have" mon when I'm building a rain team behind Politoed and Kingdra.

 

[HenpeckedBow5]

I agree. Tornadus-T makes an appearance on many teams in many ways. It is an extrememly useful mon that can be used in different ways(assault vest, life orb, rain).

 

[Aurious]

I totally agree on letting Mega-Scizor move up to S-Rank. It has an amazing bulk making it able to counter a lot of very common threats in the current Metagame such as DD Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, Clefable without Flamethrower, Bisharp, Lati@s without HP Fire, Tyranitar, Weavile and a lot of other Pokemon who are common in OU rn. Thanks to its good attack + Technician + SD it's a pain for many offensive and also more defensive teams. Heatran, Keldeo and Bulky Chomper who are the most common answers for it are not save at all since they all lack recovery and are worn down easily. Heatran also has to go max speed since its outsped and killed by +2 Superpower outherwise and Keldeo has to rely on burning with Scald which isn't really save (all the other Water types too btw). All the other stuff such as Zapdos, Megaman, Talonflame, Charizard, Quagsire etc. are Pokemon who are either weak to Hazards and can only handle it well when Hazards aren't on the field (Talonflame, Charizard) or a very limited in building (u can't just put them on any team since when u use them u're often weak to other important threats; Zapdos, Quagsire) or they're worn down easily (Megaman, Infernape).

I also agree with letting Tornadus-Therian move up to S Rank. The Life Orb set with Taunt destroys many Balance builds and doesn't have many counters while the AV set checks a lot of special attackers + has access to U-Turn which makes it to a great team supporter giving other 'mons momentum.

 

[asterat]

To be honest Tornadus-T should be S.
I dont even really feel like explaining, but I mean it's so easy to slap onto every team and it's so useful.
Just the AV set could be S, so if you consider that it actually can sweep a lot of teams clean with Life Orb (*cough* okay 70% mb that's not so clean) then it's such an easy S pick.

Oh and a fast U-Turn got even better with Hoopa released I guess.

tl;dr : pokémon with no opportunity cost

I know everyone is bandwagoning this nomination and Reymedy has a lot of credibility but I would still like to challenge this. Tornadus-T is definitely an amazing mon and a hell of a lot better than a lot of A+ tier pokemon, but I think that it is not as good as it is hyped to be. Breaking this down, Tornadus-T basically has two sets: a life orb attacker (Hurricane, and any three of Knock Off, U-Turn, Icy Wind, HP Ice, Superpower, Focus Blast, Taunt and Heat Wave.) This set is dangerous because Tornadus has good neutral coverage with STAB Hurricane and good coverage on its resists. However, this set is not strong enough to completely OHKO most things and is heavily reliant on inaccurate moves (unless rain is up.) Mathematically speaking, the odds are two focus blast/hurricanes will not hit in a row, one will miss. This is a huge issue because there is a pretty good chance of failing if Tornadus is relied upon to revenge kill something like Keldeo. It's risky to use something like that and it will end up biting you in the ass a lot of the time when you rely on it. On top of this, the life orb set is not really on the "uncounterable" spectrum. Rotom-W, Manectric, Zapdos, etc. all counter it more or less fully along with a huge amount of situational counters depending on what occupies the last three slots. Of course, not to forget that U-Turn is still incredibly effective at gaining momentum on these switches, but I feel that if U-Turning is done too aggressively something can easily just stay in on Tornadus and wreck whatever comes in next. Also, if Stealth Rock are up, Regenerator + Life Orb + Stealth Rock does not result in a health gain. In addition to all of this, Tornadus-T has so-so bulk, and can be revenge killed or worn down quite easily. I see LO Tornadus-T a lot like as a more durable but less amazing Gengar, I don't think we need to move it up.

The AV Set is an amazing defensive pivot... with heal bell support and hazard removal. It is so easy to wear down with scald or lava plume burns and easy to knock off, etc. You can use it on a dedicated stall team and easily provide those services, but I don't know if that's the best place for Torn. Because of how bad burn fucks him up the things he comes in on happily are very limited. Also, this set fails to 2HKO lots of stuff but it is a great stallbreaker if the opponent lacks a counter to it.

A great mon, but I don't think S is really necessary.

 

[Ramses]

C+ ---> B-

I'd like for Seismitoad to move up to B- I find it very good in the current Meta and it's not outclassed as it has it's own viable niche which is actually a collection of multiple niches. Seismitoad has a handy ability in Water Absorb which means it has a form of recovery albeit not easily exploitable but recovery nonetheless. Not only that it has access to Scald and Stealth Rock making it a great Setter, Scald switchin, and Scald spammer. It pretty much counters the likes of fast electric types who fail to have a strong enough coverage move to break past it's pretty decent bulk 105/75/75 and at a decent speed tier for a tank 74 Base Speed. Did I mention it also has Knock Off?

tl;dr: Scald immunity, form of recovery, Sneaky Pebbles, Knock Off, Scald Spammer, pretty bulky, decent power

 

[PKM_Trainer_Gary]

View attachment 46688
Image by McMeghan
Credit to PK Gaming for the format​

Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

• EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples not representative of their future or current ranks.

Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

• trc
• ben gay
• TDK
• Henry
• BKC
• Destiny Device

Here is the list of Pokemon that should be the focus of discussion for the next days:
SETS: If looking for sets they can be found in the preliminary pokedex sub-forum along with the OU Analyses sub-forum for WIP.

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ou-analyses.255/
Sets viability thread can be found in this link below for discussion of which sets are more viable than others in the meta.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-sets-viability-rankings-v3.3537590/page-2

ORAS OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a very high amount of viability. Their positive traits strongly outweigh their negative traits.

S Rank

Altaria (Mega)

Clefable

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a high amount of viability. Their positive traits greatly outweigh their negative traits.

A+ Rank

Azumarill

Bisharp

Charizard (Mega-X)

Diancie (Mega)

Excadrill

Garchomp

Gengar

Gyarados (Mega)

Hoopa Unbound

Heatran

Keldeo

Landorus-T

Lopunny (Mega)

Latios

Manaphy

Metagross (Mega)

Sableye (Mega)

Scizor (Mega)

Talonflame

Thundurus

Tornadus-T

A Rank

Alakazam (Mega)

Charizard (Mega-Y)

Ferrothorn

Gardevoir (Mega)

Gliscor

Hippowdon

Kyurem-B

Latias

Latias (Mega)

Manectric (Mega)

Skarmory

Slowbro

Starmie

Tyranitar

Venusaur (Mega)

Weavile

A- Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)

Alakazam

Celebi

Gyarados

Jirachi

Klefki

Magnezone

Mew

Pinsir (Mega)

Politoed

Raikou

Rotom-W

Serperior

Slowbro (Mega)

Volcarona

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a moderately high amount of viability. Their positive traits are generally on par with their negative traits.

B+ Rank

Breloom

Diggersby

Dragalge

Dragonite

Gallade (Mega)

Heracross (Mega)

Hydreigon

Kabutops

Kingdra

Mamoswine

Medicham (Mega)

Reuniclus

Scolipede

Slowking

Suicune

Swampert (Mega)

Terrakion

Togekiss

Victini

B Rank

Azelf

Beedrill (Mega)

Chansey

Crawdaunt

Empoleon

Feraligatr

Garchomp (Mega)

Gothitelle

Hawlucha

Quagsire

Omastar

Sceptile (Mega)

Scizor

Sharpedo (Mega)

Tentacruel

Tyranitar (Mega)

Zapdos

B- Rank

Amoonguss

Bronzong

Chesnaught

Conkeldurr

Gastrodon

Hoopa

Houndoom (Mega)

Infernape

Lucario

Magneton

Mandibuzz

Sylveon
Tangrowth
Toxicroak

Tyrantrum

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a moderately low amount of viability. Their positive traits are slightly hindered by their negative traits.

C+ Rank

Alomomola

Ampharos (Mega)

Blastoise (Mega)

Cobalion

Cresselia

Heracross

Pidgeot (Mega)

Rhyperior

Seismitoad

Staraptor

Thundurus-T

Wobbuffet

C Rank

Absol (Mega)

Banette (Mega)

Blissey

Cofagrigus

Dugtrio

Entei

Goodra

Gourgeist-XL

Krookodile

Kyurem

Latios (Mega)

Porygon2

Shuckle

Whimsicott

C- Rank

Aggron (Mega)

Camerupt (Mega)

Forretress

Froslass

Pangoro

Roserade

Rotom-H

Zygarde

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a low amount of viability. Their positive traits are normally hindered by their negative traits.

Chandelure

Cloyster

Emboar

Espeon

Haxorus

Honchkrow

Jellicent

Meloetta

Metagross

Mienshao

Nidoking

Nidoqueen

Sableye

Salamence

Shaymin

Smeargle

Venusaur

E Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a very low amount of viability. Their positive traits are strongly hindered by their negative traits. These Pokemon are justified for very specific roles in the meta-game for very select teams.

E Rank

Please read this pastebin here http://pastebin.com/RSjrZXph along with post #1268 on Page 51 in regards to E rank. It's important that you do. http://pastebin.com/YzzyhyVG This pastebin (thanks Karxrida) is for the mons currently just in E rank and their reasoning.

Abomasnow (Mega)

Aerodactyl

Arcanine

Cacturne

Crobat

Ditto

Doublade

Durant

Exploud

Galvantula

Gogoat

Heliolisk

Jolteon

Ludicolo

Machamp

Moltres

Ninetales

Noivern

Poliwrath

Porygon-z

Registeel

Shedinja

Sigilyph

Slurpuff

Snorlax

Steelix (Mega)

Stoutland

Stunfisk

Swellow

Tornadus

Uxie

Virizion

Weezing

Xatu

Yanmega

Zoroark

Rules - Now updated 6/14/2015

• Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will be deleted.
• No flaming. You'll get warned if you purposely do.
• Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
• Suspect talk, unrelated stuff, one liners that ask questions that provide no substance, something that doesn't really pertain to rankings or petty arguments about semantics and definitions, such as the definition of a counter as one example, will be deleted.
• PKGaming is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.... that apparently still holds true due to creating the format so I guess I'm leaving it here.

Happy posting ♪♪[/user]

I think that Mega Char X should be brought down to A+ since it takes 50% damage from rocks before mega, and if it roosts a Check could come in and ruin its hopes or It gets hit With a EQ or SE. Also takes additional 25% from Rocks coming back in, and is hit by Webs/Spikes/TSpikes, so it needs a little hazard support and also needs Clerics to protect from paralysis. Although it has up to three different styles of play (Defensive/Offensive DD/Will-o), and is unpredictable being that it could be X or Y, it gets hindered by common Hazards and less common T-Waves. Choice T-Tar can easily wipe this thing before it roosts (252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 306-362 (91.8 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO) While DDance does enable it to break through many things and outspeed, It gets ruined by Prankster T-Wave Thundy, who then dies from Flare Blitz/Dragon Claw. I disagree that Char X's positive traits strongly outweigh their negative traits, as listed in the S Teir Rank. It rarely gets able chance to heal unless its up against Setup Fodders like Chansey, or on the first turn switch in, so Flare Blitz has its Drawbacks, leaving it to a MUCH WEAKER Fire Punch, in which the damage difference in notable unless you get a D-Dance up, in then it doesn't matter. Also gets beat by Priority, which it lacks outside of Quick Attack, which I haven't seen anyone use YET. Although Band-TalonFlame can't Kill without Rocks up, Char cannot OHKO Talonflame with Dragon claw without Brave Bird Damge first (252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 250-295 (84.1 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) While Talonflame does 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 216-255 (64.8 - 76.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (100% if Stealth Rock Damage is taken before Mega Evolution) and (252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 214-253 (72 - 85.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock), and since it lives a Dragon Claw, it can do suicide and (+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 312-367 (105 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO), and dies unless Char D-Dances(Which is unlikely). I'm not saying its not Good btw, I'm just saying its not worthy in my eyes to be an S rank mon. It can get weakened/Sack Killed at times, and needs a mon uncapable of hitting it hard (Like Ferro/Chansey/Heatran, though the latter can 2HKO/OHKO if rocks are set with EP, and Chansey requires a +3 DDance to OHKO) to sweep, and even then things can stop it there, but is good against most teams, but usually teams have check(s) for it, like Dugtrio, who can live any attack with sash, Earthquake Twice/Earthquake+SP, Depending if Char has A D-Dance set up (or OHKO's if Char goes FB). Its only flaw is that the only way Dug doesn't kill if both EQ and SP do Minimal damage, or Char roosts when it SP's, also Choice Band Dug OHKO's but if Char is D-danced then its dead). Char's great points are that its hard to stop after the setup and involves a check to sack itself to kill or attempt to kill Char, along with burn resistance and Reliable Recovery in roost, and can usually live a non-stab ground move, along with some mon's stab EQ (Like Dug)

 

[Vinc608]

I think that Mega Char X should be brought down to A+ since it takes 50% damage from rocks before mega, and if it roosts a Check could come in and ruin its hopes or It gets hit With a EQ or SE. Also takes additional 25% from Rocks coming back in, and is hit by Webs/Spikes/TSpikes

Your argument is flawed. You can't drop a Pokemon just for his flaws, you must see his advantages too. I admit that Charizard X don't like hazards. But it is one of the best sweepers of the tier, and a very good support mon if it runs a Bulky set. It is very threatening when he dragon dances up, and the Will-O-Wisp set lures out most of its counters. It also destroys Balanced builds with SD.
Xard X in S.

 

[Lord Xen III]

I totally agree on letting Mega-Scizor move up to S-Rank. It has an amazing bulk making it able to counter a lot of very common threats in the current Metagame such as DD Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, Clefable without Flamethrower, Bisharp, Lati@s without HP Fire, Tyranitar, Weavile and a lot of other Pokemon who are common in OU rn. Thanks to its good attack + Technician + SD it's a pain for many offensive and also more defensive teams. Heatran, Keldeo and Bulky Chomper who are the most common answers for it are not save at all since they all lack recovery and are worn down easily. Heatran also has to go max speed since its outsped and killed by +2 Superpower outherwise and Keldeo has to rely on burning with Scald which isn't really save (all the other Water types too btw). All the other stuff such as Zapdos, Megaman, Talonflame, Charizard, Quagsire etc. are Pokemon who are either weak to Hazards and can only handle it well when Hazards aren't on the field (Talonflame, Charizard) or a very limited in building (u can't just put them on any team since when u use them u're often weak to other important threats; Zapdos, Quagsire) or they're worn down easily (Megaman, Infernape).

I also agree with letting Tornadus-Therian move up to S Rank. The Life Orb set with Taunt destroys many Balance builds and doesn't have many counters while the AV set checks a lot of special attackers + has access to U-Turn which makes it to a great team supporter giving other 'mons momentum.

I already stated my take on this but i wanna focus a bit on another perspective. The remaining problem with mega scizor is that it doesn't pressure its checks enough. Sure , it can wear them down with u turn but its also slow meaning it won't get a free switchin to its teammate unless it u turned on the switch against most of its check. Other than that, it's true most of the answers to Scizor are weak to SR and this is a hazard centric meta. But thats still proving mega scizor still needs outside support to even have a chance of beating some of these checks, and some such as Talon flame and Zard x still beat it 1v1 if rocks are up. Further, using the argument that the SR support paired with Mega Scizor increases the counterplay it has against its checks is ignoring the fact that this is offset by the fact that every SR weak scizor check is paired with magic bounce, defog, or rapid spin support. Mega Scizor shouldn't be in the same rank as Clefable Charizard x and Mega Altaria, who don't need as much team support. As i said in my previous post, All zard x checks are only able to beat ONE of its sets. Anything that beats ddance loses miserably to the SD set. For mega alt, the only reliable check is vensuaur which takes up a mega slot. All clefable checks either lose to flamethrower, are bopped by t wave, or lose when Clefable gets to +1 in spdef. The best Mega Scizor has to offer is knock off removing items off of things like Quagsire and talonflame, which is good, but it's still relatively inconsequential in their ability to check it in the long run. The whole thing about Scizors' checks being limited in team building is false because every play style has multiple checks that are reliable in beating it and all of its sets. Playing stall/semistall/balance ? Skarmory, Zapdos, Tentacruel, hp fire Mega Venu, Gyarados, defensive Gliscor, and Quagsire deal with it. Playing offense? Bulky Chomp, Keldeo , faster Heatrans, Thundurus, both Zards, Talonflame, Mega Manectric just to name a few will consistently beat Scizor. Also, regarding your comment on max speed Mega Scizor and Keldeo:

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 267-315 (95 - 112%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Sure , hydro pump and scald are not the most reliable moves for beating it, I'll give you that. Keldeo is one of the more shaky checks to superpower scizor, but still offense has plenty of options for dealing with it outside of that. Scizor is fine in A+.


Regarding Tornadus T, I'm not really feeling S for it unless we get infinite rain again. In practice its standard AV set is something like u turn, knock off, hurricane, and then a filler coverage move. Knock off and U-turn provide great utility , and u turn gains momentum and health back for Tornadus so it's more likely to outlast its checks. However, the AV set is lacking in physical bulk for a pivot and its still not taking really strong hits as I see many people switching this thing into stuff like Keldeo and Latios and it taking like 60 percent. Thanks to its speed it can revenge Keldeo and then pivot out or knock off on Latios but its not always getting all that health back if rocks are up. Factor in scald burns from Keldeo and this thing gets worn down pretty quickly. In addition, this set tends to struggle with common mons like Mega Manectric, Clefable, Rotom, Char y, and Mega Diancie to name a few. Going back to what i said about infinite rain, in that meta Tornadus is much harder to deal with regularly especially with its LO set because you know you have accurate and powerful LO hurricanes + more consistent confusion hax so its much harder to check, and effectively becomes similar to what Mega Pidegot was in UU that led to its recent ban. Outside of rain and with the typical AV set, Tornadus is not as reliable as it is in theory especially when your main stab move that you want to be firing off is missing a lot of the time. Knock off and u turn are great utility but they do very little damage. Because of that, i don't see it in the same rank as our current 3 s ranks who don't need weather to consistently be the potent threats they are to all play styles in practice as they are on paper.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Hoopa B- --> C

Hoopa-Confined is basically Mega Latios 2.0. What I mean by this is that it using it just prevents you from using another pokemon who pretty much completely outclasses it. Seriously, base Hoopa is just a poor man's Hoopa Unbound, with almost all pf its flaws in addition to a 4x weakness to both Ghost and Dark, considerably lower attack, slightly lower defense, and even worse speed (80 may be bad but 70 is even worse). Literally the only thing Confined has over Unbound is that it its Ghost type can be better in sometimes, but it really doesn't make it worth using over Unbound

 

[ehT]

May I ask why regular Kyurem (which is C Rank currently) is even ranked at all? I really don't see what it has to offer, offensively or defensively, over its big brother Kyurem-Black, which seems to outclass it in every way. KyuB has, at the cost of a mere base -10 SpAtk, pretty much the strongest Outrage in the game, access to Fusion Bolt, and the ability to invest in max SpAtk while still hitting insanely hard off of both of its attacking stats. Regular Kyurem, on the other hand, must leave its attacks from one side relatively weak to fully invest in its other stat. They have pretty much identical bulk (KyuB's 125 / 100 / 90 compared to regular Kyurem's 125 / 90 / 90), so there isn't really any defensive utility that Kyurem can offer, either. This is to say, both Kyurems are pretty much equally versatile in terms of the number of sets, but there isn't any role that I can think of where regular Kyurem would do better than KyuB. I really don't want to propose a rank or anything, since I haven't even seen Kyurem in action in OU, but on paper, I honestly don't see what kind of place it could have in this meta when Kyurem-Black exists.

 

[Aurious]

Lord Xen III: Zard X needs Hazard Control, Altaria needs Hazard Control + Magnezone to perform really well. The only 'mon in S Rank (and in the whole Metagame) which can perform really well without support is Clefable and that's why it's by far the best Pokemon in OU rn. Scizor needs less support then Zard X or Altaria need, it only needs SR and a bit of other pressure on its counters to be good and it's easier to keep SR on the field then to keep it out of the field since the most common Hazard Controlers on Zard X / Altaria teams are Lati@s or Starmie which are easily Pursuit trapped so they can't keep SR out of the field for long while the most common SR setter on Scizor teams is Hippowdon or Garchomp which can set up them multiple times.

 

[p2]

May I ask why regular Kyurem (which is C Rank currently) is even ranked at all? I really don't see what it has to offer, offensively or defensively, over its big brother Kyurem-Black, which seems to outclass it in every way. KyuB has, at the cost of a mere base -10 SpAtk, pretty much the strongest Outrage in the game, access to Fusion Bolt, and the ability to invest in max SpAtk while still hitting insanely hard off of both of its attacking stats. Regular Kyurem, on the other hand, must leave its attacks from one side relatively weak to fully invest in its other stat. They have pretty much identical bulk (KyuB's 125 / 100 / 90 compared to regular Kyurem's 125 / 90 / 90), so there isn't really any defensive utility that Kyurem can offer, either. This is to say, both Kyurems are pretty much equally versatile in terms of the number of sets, but there isn't any role that I can think of where regular Kyurem would do better than KyuB. I really don't want to propose a rank or anything, since I haven't even seen Kyurem in action in OU, but on paper, I honestly don't see what kind of place it could have in this meta when Kyurem-Black exists.

SubRoost with Pressure allows Kyurem to handle stuff and stallbreak more effectively than KyuB can as it can create 101 HP Subs, has a decent speed tier, and still hits pretty hard with its 130 SpA. ben gay posted a bunch of good replays when he first made the nom to C, so he can probably provide them if needed.

 

[GlassVeins]

I think that Mega Char X should be brought down to A+ since it takes 50% damage from rocks before mega, and if it roosts a Check could come in and ruin its hopes or It gets hit With a EQ or SE. Also takes additional 25% from Rocks coming back in, and is hit by Webs/Spikes/TSpikes

That same logic could be applied to Ho-Oh, but we aren't gonna see that drop any time soon. its sheer power after one DD with tough claws is more than enough to keep it in S, IMO. Also, it has pretty good 78/111/85 defenses, so it can take decent neutral or weak SE hits while setting up. plus, after one dd it can outspeed most of the meta. I don't think calcs are necessary to prove it can OHKO most of the meta. edit: partially ninja'd

 

[Lord Xen III]

Lord Xen III: Zard X needs Hazard Control, Altaria needs Hazard Control + Magnezone to perform really well. The only 'mon in S Rank (and in the whole Metagame) which can perform really well without support is Clefable and that's why it's by far the best Pokemon in OU rn. Scizor needs less support then Zard X or Altaria need, it only needs SR and a bit of other pressure on its counters to be good and it's easier to keep SR on the field then to keep it out of the field since the most common Hazard Controlers on Zard X / Altaria teams are Lati@s or Starmie which are easily Pursuit trapped so they can't keep SR out of the field for long while the most common SR setter on Scizor teams is Hippowdon or Garchomp which can set up them multiple times.

Lets not act like I said mega altaria and zard x require 0 support, I said they require less support. Mega altaria doesn't need hazard support per say as its neutral to rocks after mega and has roost if it wants. It also doesn't need Magnezone at all. It can run a set of Ddance fire blast EQ and return and such set is only walled by ( some) talonflame variants if rocks arent up and mega venu. The fact that it still opts to run Magnezone is so all fire blast targets are easily dealt with making it easier to fit roost, dont confuse that with mega altaria needing it, as I've seen mega altaria function without it with similar viability. Mega altaria can still function by itself. Humor me on what support Zard x needs outside of SR removal, because its stabs alone obliterate 90 percent of the meta. And even then , zard X can run roost. Scizor on the other hand is slower than both of these other megas, weaker, and has far more checks and counters. Its not on the same level, as essentially you told me that scizor needs SR support and pursuit support for opposing hazard removers all so it still gets walled by common staples on balance like skarmory and still loses to zard x even with rocks up, all while zard x literally only needs rocks gone and doesn't have any reliable checks? Mega scizor definitely needs more support , and putting it in S rank with behemoths that require less support is not sending the right message.

 

[thesecondbest]

tl;dr stop saying mamoswine is outclassed by weavile. it doesn't belong in B, a subrank lower than victini and mega gallade.

yeah when I want something that can hit flying-types, water-types, isn't weak to stealth rock, and has priority. oh and did I mention that it beats balance?

But even with weakness to sr kyurem is bulkier and has reliable recovery. Kyurem, for example, can take a bp from scizor after rocks. Mamo can't half the time.
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 208-247 (52.7 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 182-218 (46.1 - 55.3%) -- 61.3% chance to 2HKO

16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 133-159 (32.9 - 39.3%)
56 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 203-239 (50.2 - 59.1%)

252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 250-296 (82.5 - 97.6%)
16 SpA Life Orb Mamoswine Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 143-172 (47.1 - 56.7%)

Yeah you clearly beat things like slowbro when Kube doesnt
And did I mention Kube beats balance?

it's laughable to place Mamoswine below Victini and Mega Gallade. Realistically I'd rather drop those two than Mamoswine because they don't fare that great in this metagame but that's for another time.

Then all three deserve to drop, that's not a reason why mamo shouldn't. You cant just say "oh x is in this rank so y doesn't drop". Otherwise I would point out that mega latios has no niche, so nothing should ever go below C

Roost isn't always enough to offset the LO recoil, in addition to the Stealth Rock and residual damage taken, meaning that Mamoswine can check certain Pokemon such as Mega Manectric and Raikou more easily.

252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 159-188 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thick Fat Mamoswine: 220-260 (61.2 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
After factoring in SR mamo still takes more. And seriously, roost doesn't offset life orb recoil? what kind of an awful argument is that?

>breloom outclasses mamoswine
oh dear god save me from this terrible place
They have different roles and I said they were hard to compare, but overall breloom has a more distinct niche. I have shown, with calcs, (calcs don't lie) that the only thing mamo has over kube is access to stealth rock and that isn't a justifiable enough niche to put it in the same rank as breloom and diggersby, which each have multiple effective sets. And if victini and gallade deserve to drop, say that. Don't use them as an argument to keep Mamo this high.

 

[AM]

Sweet more bold. Always a pleasure.

 

[bludz]

Weavile and kyu-b are undoubtedly better ice types and that's why they are ranked higher. Ground STAB is a really nice thing to have though and priority is another thing it has over kyu-b. Not gonna go into too much detail but if you use Mamoswine on a reasonably well built team its pretty clear that it is more of a threat than the things in B rank.

As for Torn I think the outlasting its checks thing is exaggerated. Firstly while it "doesn't care" about SR due to Regenerator, at the same time its recovery is severely limited by it. Switching into rocks and attacks assures it'll be worn down over time. U-turning out doesn't always yield recovery either when you consider the popularity of chomp and ferro and how easy it is to switch in on a predicted U-turn. Torn also can have its recovery limited by pursuit a la weavile or ttar if lacking superpower which AV sets often do. Status conditions still wear it down as well. Granted I'm listing off all the things that limit its recovery and not discussing how in some matches it seems to never die. But its longevity can still be accounted for in building and I think some of these points were overlooked in terms of its effectiveness.

Regarding Mega Scizor, I think you are missing some points Lord Xen III.

Yes it does not pressure its checks like those other mons but its also more difficult to get rid of in general than Altaria or Charizard (not Clefable). Its also a better cleaner due to priority, whereas zard and alt can still be picked off by fast scarfers and other priority. I wouldn't really say it requires much more support than those two while it certainly provides more team support than Zard and offensive Altaria as well IMO.

Being walled by common balance mons isn't a big deal when balance is wildly overrated anyway with this metagame full of wall and stall breakers. You can call that team support if you like but every team should have stall or wallbreakers similar to hazard removal so I wouldn't place its level of support as greater than zard x.

Maybe its not S worthy but its damn close and offensive sets are actually stupidly strong and under prepared for

 

[PKM_Trainer_Gary]

Lord Xen III: I totally agree on letting Mega-Scizor move up to S-Rank. It has an amazing bulk making it able to counter a lot of very common threats in the current Metagame such as DD Mega Altaria, Mega Metagross, Clefable without Flamethrower, Bisharp, Lati@s without HP Fire, Tyranitar, Weavile and a lot of other Pokemon who are common in OU rn. Thanks to its good attack + Technician + SD it's a pain for many offensive and also more defensive teams. Heatran, Keldeo and Bulky Chomper who are the most common answers for it are not save at all since they all lack recovery and are worn down easily. Heatran also has to go max speed since its outsped and killed by +2 Superpower outherwise and Keldeo has to rely on burning with Scald which isn't really save (all the other Water types too btw). All the other stuff such as Zapdos, Megaman, Talonflame, Charizard, Quagsire etc. are Pokemon who are either weak to Hazards and can only handle it well when Hazards aren't on the field (Talonflame, Charizard) or a very limited in building (u can't just put them on any team since when u use them u're often weak to other important threats; Zapdos, Quagsire) or they're worn down easily (Megaman, Infernape).

You have to remember that many Mons carry Fire Type Moves and Will-o, not to mention that U-Turn is slower, so even mons like Hoopa-U (SERIOUSLY) can OHKO with Fire Punch, (unless you run Max speed and Hoopa isn't, plus you lose the Adamant nature and Bulk) (252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 343-406 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO). M-Venu, the Latis, Heatran, and Magnezone prevent it from U-turning out, the latter especially since it can't hard switch with Magnet Pull, making it sure to die by HP Fire.

 

[Vinc608]

You have to remember that many Mons carry Fire Type Moves and Will-o, not to mention that U-Turn is slower, so even mons like Hoopa-U (SERIOUSLY) can OHKO with Fire Punch, (unless you run Max speed and Hoopa isn't, plus you lose the Adamant nature and Bulk) (252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 343-406 (100 - 118.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO). M-Venu, the Latis, Heatran, and Magnezone prevent it from U-turning out, the latter especially since it can't hard switch with Magnet Pull, making it sure to die by HP Fire.

Wow, a Pokemon with 160 base attack with a Life Orb can OHKO Mega-Scizor with Fire Punch ! Amazing ! I can say that for any Pokemon in S Rank, for example : "Clefable is OHKO'ed by Meteor Mash of Mega-Metagross, so it shouldn't be S Rank." I don't totally agree with Mega-Scizor in S Rank, but your argument is flawed. Also, a slow U-Turn is often useful to bring Pokemon who doesn't want to take a hit, because of their fragility.

 

[MikeDawg]

I don't think that Torn-T has any business in S simply because of how offensively unreliable it is. Sure, it can check lots of stuff... 70% of the time. We have all had that 1/3 game where we have tried to hurricane a charizard, only to miss and end up getting swept. You have to layer fast checks with tornadus, because relying solely on it to deal with much of the meta isn't possible because of these accuracy issues. 30% of the time, you will end up with a dead tornadus. This is even more problematic that its ideal coverage move (fblast) also has 70% accuracy, increasing the probability of a vital lost turn.

It is a great mon (hence why it has climbed up to A+), but it needs a relatively large amount of support in the form of teammates to regain control of the match after an inevitable miss.


Update: The first turn of my last three battles was a hurricane miss <3

 

[MANNAT]

Hoopa B- --> C

Hoopa-Confined is basically Mega Latios 2.0. What I mean by this is that it using it just prevents you from using another pokemon who pretty much completely outclasses it. Seriously, base Hoopa is just a poor man's Hoopa Unbound, with almost all pf its flaws in addition to a 4x weakness to both Ghost and Dark, considerably lower attack, slightly lower defense, and even worse speed (80 may be bad but 70 is even worse). Literally the only thing Confined has over Unbound is that it its Ghost type can be better in sometimes, but it really doesn't make it worth using over Unbound

Hoopa C actually has a solid niche over its more viable form in being arguably the best subnper in the tier, shredding stall to pieces with that set. It is immune to chansey's seismic toss and sets up on it by clicking sub, chansey being one of the most common mons on stall, ghost is significantly better than dark offensively because it doesn't have to worry about fighting or fairy types walling it. The only really relevant normal type in OU is chansey, and Hoopa C sets up on it with no problem, so the fact that normal types are immune to ghost type attacks doesnt really matter. Since it manhandles stall, and since most balanced teams have a hell of a time switching into it because most dont run bulky normal types,and all of these factors together for hoopa make it worthy of C rank imo.

Hoopa C to stay in C rank

 

[MANNAT]

I said drop to C rank, not D rank.

I know that, and it does so well vs those two playstyles that I don't think it should drop to C rank, especially since it has a lot more qualities over Hoopa U than Mega Latios does over Life Orb Latios as I have listed above, and it is definetely not as niche as some of the stuff in C rank, such as; subroost Kyurem, which is only there because of PP STALLING or shuckle because its only competitor for the role of sticky webber+rocker is fucking smeargle, so there is absolutely no reason why it should drop that low.

 

[resting-explorer]

Looking through the D ranks, I noticed that Mienshao was on the list. I don't know if Mienshao really deserves a D rank, since moves like Fake out, U-turn, Hi kick Jump... (Not to mention the occasional Regenerator ability). It's offensive stats are great, and not only that, but it has a more-than-decent movepool. If used correctly, Mienshao could weaken a team that doesn't rely on held items. I do agree that Mienshao's weak defense can definitely put it in a sticky situation against powerhouse teams, but if a strategic trainer can used Mienshao's U-turn to his/her advantage, then Mienshao could definitely do some damage. But even so, I see why Mienshao was put on the D ranks. Depending on what sort of team you're going against, defense is important. And even though Mienshao's attack and speed isn't all that bad, the low defense definitely drags the pokemon's performance down a significant bit. But I guess if you use Mienshao in the right way, you could definitely get some good use out of him. Using him in double battles or multi battles, for example. This could give you a chance for the other pokemon on your team to set up some decent defense like light screen. But yeah, overrated and horribly weak to most moves, Mienshao doesn't really belong high up on the ranks.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

AM Edit: Deleted this portion of reply

Looking through the D ranks, I noticed that Mienshao was on the list. I don't know if Mienshao really deserves a D rank, since moves like Fake out, U-turn, Hi kick Jump... (Not to mention the occasional Regenerator ability). It's offensive stats are great, and not only that, but it has a more-than-decent movepool. If used correctly, Mienshao could weaken a team that doesn't rely on held items. I do agree that Mienshao's weak defense can definitely put it in a sticky situation against powerhouse teams, but if a strategic trainer can used Mienshao's U-turn to his/her advantage, then Mienshao could definitely do some damage. But even so, I see why Mienshao was put on the D ranks. Depending on what sort of team you're going against, defense is important. And even though Mienshao's attack and speed isn't all that bad, the low defense definitely drags the pokemon's performance down a significant bit. But I guess if you use Mienshao in the right way, you could definitely get some good use out of him. Using him in double battles or multi battles, for example. This could give you a chance for the other pokemon on your team to set up some decent defense like light screen. But yeah, overrated and horribly weak to most moves, Mienshao doesn't really belong high up on the ranks.

doubles and multis != singles, and mienshao faces severe competition from other fighting-types for a teamslot (especially keldeo, terrak and mega lop)

but mienshao probably should go C-. that high jump kick is a bitch and the fact that it can get past lando-t and gliscor with some prior damage is awesome

 

[Cheryl.]

Hello, I'm here to say that Scolipede should stay B+. While it's best set, the SD/Iron Defense Speed Boost Pass set got banned, it still has some other sets that can work, like the offensive LO set, which can be an awesome cleaner, the SD sweeper set, the lead set that can set up Spikes or Toxic Spikes, or even just a set that just passes Speed Boosts. While Scolipede has lost a niche, I think it is good for it, so now people can recognize it's other sets, which are just as good as the banned set. Scolipede stays B+.

Also, regarding the Mamoswine nominations, I think it should not drop, but also not rise. While it has fallen out of favor recently, it's still a cool wallbreaker with that STAB combination and can also run the lead set with Stealth Rock as well. But the 80 speed stat isn't great, and it's weak to some common types while also being just a bit frail, but the 110 HP stat is still nice. Overall, Mamoswine is pretty much a borderline A- mon, but not quite A- material. It shouldn't drop, as it's just as viable as other stuff in B+ like Mega Medicham or Scolipede.