Couple months ago in tour settings.
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Resource ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V3 - Thread Closed (See Post #147)
- Thread starter urban
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I'll repost from the old thread for a couple things (edited to make more sense for the thread):
I don't have anything new to say on ScarfGar, but it should definitely get a rank imo.
Itemless Acrobatics Torn-T should be ranked as well, likely for B or B+. It has the benefit of being able to carry a fully accurate, powerful STAB while also getting a slightly stronger Knock Off and U-turn. Makes for an excellent scout and lead with the Taunt + Knock Off + U-turn combo with a reliable STAB to back it up.
As for the stuff AM posted...
Supporting AV Azu to A. Switching moves is good and the extra special bulk allows it to check stuff like Keldeo and Lando-I better.
Supporting SpD Gliscor to A+. Better check/counter to Lando-I, Mega Diancie, Gengar and such while still beating out a lot of the physical attackers it's supposed to check thanks to natural bulk.
That's all.
Having used SubPunch Emboar, it's one of its best sets and should probably be C- with Scarf. Band is a bit worse than Scarf imo just because it has a really hard time getting in and is very prediction reliant, but the threat of being able to do over half to anything in OU after Rocks should keep it ranked at the very least. Life Orb is a slightly better alternative imo just for being able to switch moves and carry Sucker Punch safely. Expert Belt could be slashed with it.
I don't have anything new to say on ScarfGar, but it should definitely get a rank imo.
Itemless Acrobatics Torn-T should be ranked as well, likely for B or B+. It has the benefit of being able to carry a fully accurate, powerful STAB while also getting a slightly stronger Knock Off and U-turn. Makes for an excellent scout and lead with the Taunt + Knock Off + U-turn combo with a reliable STAB to back it up.
As for the stuff AM posted...
Supporting AV Azu to A. Switching moves is good and the extra special bulk allows it to check stuff like Keldeo and Lando-I better.
Supporting SpD Gliscor to A+. Better check/counter to Lando-I, Mega Diancie, Gengar and such while still beating out a lot of the physical attackers it's supposed to check thanks to natural bulk.
That's all.
I'll switch around the Band/Scarf Emboar sets, and I'm open to considering the Life Orb and SubPunch sets.
AM and I already talked about Scarf Gengar and Acro Torn-T. I'll copy and paste his comments.
On ScarfGar: Just remove scarf it's a relic of the past and I'm not too fond of very niche sets.
On Acro Torn-T: If someone mentions acrobatics disregard it it's super niche and really team specific.
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The main viability ranking thread was updated, so that means this thread needs to be updated too. I'll be making some of changes on my own, some with AM, and I'll look to community input for the rest.
Here is the list of changes from the viability ranking thread:
Cofagrigus: D > C
Forretress: D > C-
M-Glalie: D > Unranked
M-Camerupt: C > C-
Exploud: D > Unranked
Ditto: C- > D
Cloyster: Stays in D
Diancie: D > Unranked
Gardevoir: D > Unranked
Froslass: D > C-
Whimsicott: C- > C
Venusaur: Unranked > D
Ludicolo: D > Unranked
Forretress: D > C-
M-Glalie: D > Unranked
M-Camerupt: C > C-
Exploud: D > Unranked
Ditto: C- > D
Cloyster: Stays in D
Diancie: D > Unranked
Gardevoir: D > Unranked
Froslass: D > C-
Whimsicott: C- > C
Venusaur: Unranked > D
Ludicolo: D > Unranked
Trying to keep from having a million posts on this thread, so another edit @ -Clone-.
I had both Mega Venu sets at A, but AM requested I move defensive Venu down. He didn't explain much beyond saying that the offensive set is a lot better.
Okay, I had something written here, but then I realized it was kinda irrelevant cause Clone talked about running SpDef investment on M-Venu. Anyway, ignore my ramblings. I will say that offensive Mega-Venu still check most of the things Clone mentioned just fine, and that increased offensive presence can really matter against certain teams.
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Coil zygarde should be C- along with it's other sets as coil is one of zygarde's best traits and one of the main reasons to use it.
Edit:Make defensive sylveon C- as if you were looking for a bulky fairy you'd probably look at clefable first.
Edit:Make defensive sylveon C- as if you were looking for a bulky fairy you'd probably look at clefable first.
Defensive mega Venusaur > A
The set is honestly on par with the offensive set, if not better. The reason being because it can live hits that the offensive set can't, with the biggest example being Landorus Is a earth power. Given that psychic is practically nonexistent at this point, having a mon that can beat it 1v1 especially on a balance team is incredibly important and often overlooked, since this requires SpDef investment (which is by no means a burden on Venu). Furthermore, defensive Venusaur is not nearly as pressured by "water spam" as the offensive set is due to the fact that it takes on average 20ish percent less from important attacks like scalds and play roughs, which gives it a buffer against these mons to be able to actually attack and not have to spam synthesis to stay healthy. This really comes into play when mega Venu gets burned. Moreover, defensive mega Venu takes on mons such as Mega Diancie and Bisharp much better than offensive variants because a random SpDef drop or iron head flinch won't spell its doom. Yeah it's hax but it's still something that can make or break a game, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.
Granted, the defensive set is much less threatening to its checks than the offensive set, but this issue is all but mitigated by the added defensive utility that is invaluable in many scenarios.
The set is honestly on par with the offensive set, if not better. The reason being because it can live hits that the offensive set can't, with the biggest example being Landorus Is a earth power. Given that psychic is practically nonexistent at this point, having a mon that can beat it 1v1 especially on a balance team is incredibly important and often overlooked, since this requires SpDef investment (which is by no means a burden on Venu). Furthermore, defensive Venusaur is not nearly as pressured by "water spam" as the offensive set is due to the fact that it takes on average 20ish percent less from important attacks like scalds and play roughs, which gives it a buffer against these mons to be able to actually attack and not have to spam synthesis to stay healthy. This really comes into play when mega Venu gets burned. Moreover, defensive mega Venu takes on mons such as Mega Diancie and Bisharp much better than offensive variants because a random SpDef drop or iron head flinch won't spell its doom. Yeah it's hax but it's still something that can make or break a game, and I'd rather be safe than sorry.
Granted, the defensive set is much less threatening to its checks than the offensive set, but this issue is all but mitigated by the added defensive utility that is invaluable in many scenarios.
theurbandear you forgot mega garchomp.
Edit:Btw here's the set
Garchomp @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge
Edit:Btw here's the set
Garchomp @ Garchompite
Ability: Rough Skin
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge
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So to tie in with the comment I just posted on regular VR don't nom niche sets to be ranked. Stuff like SubDisable Gengar is an example of something that shouldn't be ranked or if you have some real balls Life Orb Talonflame with Overheat / HP Ice (It's a lure set btw for those wondering). Anyways that's just a quick comment on that.
Ah, that clears things up.
Any reason why Life Orb Shaymin is unranked? Carrying Synthesis/Rest for recovery is good and Life Orb allows Healing Wish to be used as a nice last resort move when its health is low. Switching moves is also a nice bonus over Specs of course.
Also, I support Defensive DD Mega Altaria to S. It sets up ridiculously easy against all kinds of teams and can't still act as a defensive check to things since it carries Roost and has all of that HP and Defense investment. I personally find Facade + Earthquake to be a really amazing and S-rank worthy set, as it really only requires Magnezone or a Ferro and Skarm lure to sweep effectively. DDD is definitely among Altaria's best sets.
I think Lando-T's defensive pivot set should be moved down to A. It really isn't the check-all it used to be, Rocky Helmet Garchomp has largely taken its place in that regard. Offensive SR sets (Earth Plate, SR + SD) are considerably (see: a full sub-rank) more effective in the current metagame IMO.
Edit: I'd also move its Choice Scarf set back up to A.
Edit: I'd also move its Choice Scarf set back up to A.
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I think Infernape's defensive set should be moved up to C+. It's one of the best counters around to weavile, mega scizor, and bisharp, which many teams have trouble with. It's speed tier is great for a defensive mon, allowing it to burn a lot of pokemon such as av azumarill and mega gyarados before they have a chance to attack it, crippling them for the rest of the match. Taunt is also great on it as it can just spread burns and heal itself, while it can taunt mons that try to set up on it or heal themselves.
Not many pokemon can consistently switch in to weavile and bisharp, and infernape is actually one of the few pokemon that can reliably counter both of them.
edit: Also I think this is a great resource for newer players! Also, will there be a mixed set for Mega Absol? (Ice Beam or Fire Blast)
Not many pokemon can consistently switch in to weavile and bisharp, and infernape is actually one of the few pokemon that can reliably counter both of them.
edit: Also I think this is a great resource for newer players! Also, will there be a mixed set for Mega Absol? (Ice Beam or Fire Blast)
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One little question: Can we stick this thread, please?
I really, really like to read this thread in tandem with the OU Viability Ranking. And I think other people, especially new Pokémon players, would like to see this, too. Finding this thread/knowing that this exists isn't that easy for newer members in this forum.
Nevertheless: Really good Thread!
I already liked Recreant's version of this thread, but tbh, it was full of little mistakes and not up-to-date at all. (No offense. Everyone have other things to do too, I'm aware of that.)
Seeing this thread now, with a good overview and fast updates (right after the updates in the OU Viability Ranking), is great.
Keep goin' with this!
I really, really like to read this thread in tandem with the OU Viability Ranking. And I think other people, especially new Pokémon players, would like to see this, too. Finding this thread/knowing that this exists isn't that easy for newer members in this forum.
Nevertheless: Really good Thread!
I already liked Recreant's version of this thread, but tbh, it was full of little mistakes and not up-to-date at all. (No offense. Everyone have other things to do too, I'm aware of that.)
Seeing this thread now, with a good overview and fast updates (right after the updates in the OU Viability Ranking), is great.
Keep goin' with this!
Yeah I wouldn't put Scarf at S honestly. It's effective but it's not like Specs where I'm thinking, "damn wtf is switching into" such as Specs or "damn do I really want to be risking this burn or making sure I'm not getting set up on mon?". Keldeos sets are fine where they are.
Yeah I have to agree with AM. Scarf Keldeo fits onto a lot of teambuilds because it checks a ton of things (definitely more than Specs or SubCM) but in terms of being a threat it just isn't quite on the same level.
So a couple of noms:
I said this one before but Stallbreaker Tran to A. This set is quite effective at getting a kill against bulky builds and is even alright against offense where Heatran's already good bulk and typing allows it to often come in on something relatively freely and fire off an attack.
Also Specially Defensive Hippowdon as an A- ranked set. While the mixed set is probably one of the top check-alls in the current metagame, the SpDef set checks electrics even better and also some hard to check things like Special Mega Altaria (esp if they got EQ), Gengar, and a few others.
So a couple of noms:
I said this one before but Stallbreaker Tran to A. This set is quite effective at getting a kill against bulky builds and is even alright against offense where Heatran's already good bulk and typing allows it to often come in on something relatively freely and fire off an attack.
Also Specially Defensive Hippowdon as an A- ranked set. While the mixed set is probably one of the top check-alls in the current metagame, the SpDef set checks electrics even better and also some hard to check things like Special Mega Altaria (esp if they got EQ), Gengar, and a few others.
I think Hippowdons Specially Defensive set should be at A honestly. Checking electrics even better than before is kind of huge, especially when Grass Knot Thundurus is becoming this norm just to floor a weakened Hippowdon. Then there's some applications like Latios Draco Meteor that SpDef allows it to just shave off and recover health and or allow itself to scout a Surf with much more easy. Mega Houndoom pretty much just loses to this set, Gengar can have some issues muscling through it which leaves it open to Stone Edge, or Crunch if using that, M-Diancie just hates this set so much, list goes on. Mixed Defense Hippo is sort of this blanket check thing that is used for the sake of being basic and sort of a generic catch all to whatever when SpDef is really solid cause most of the specially offensive wall-breakers and or heavy hitters have a tough time breaking through this when played well with an already high physically defensive presence from its natural defense stat.
Well the impression was wrong it's actually ranked on its defensive set to provide spike utility.
Special Attacker Mega Altaria -> S
Special is easily the best set because it simply slaughters bulky offense and balance builds, which struggle to handle it defensively due to its great coverage and power. It's a very consistent and useful set on the whole.
Defensive DD Altaria -> A
It just struggles to really do much in the metagame... it loses to all common steels (Ferro, Scizor, Skarm, Jirachi, Gross, Tran, Zone...) which means it needs pretty significant support and even then a pretty good matchup to put in work, as it just doesn't have a good level of power.
Support Altaria -> A+
Not as good as DD and Special Attacker imo. It checks a lot of threats but really lacks offensive presence.
Stallbreaker Heatran -> A
CM Mega Sableye -> A
This set shouldn't be underrated. It's a very good win condition for defensive teams once his checks have been removed. Sableye is also quite hard to 2HKO at +1.
Defensive Starmie -> A
This set is as good as the Offensive Spinner. Defensive Starmie is a much more reliable spinner than the Offensive because it's not quickly worn down. It beats most of his checks with Reflect Type so it can be hard to deal with.
Choice Specs Raikou -> B+
Simply worse than AV Raikou. AV is the main reason to use Raikou because it checks many Special Attacker. This is also Raikou's main asset over Mega Manectric. Choice Specs suffers of the competition from Mega Mancectric who is faster, has Intimidate and Fire coverage. Moreover Raikou dislikes to be locked in one move because it's easy to take advantage of it.
DD Dragonite -> B
This set is in one word outclassed by other Dragon Dancers, mainly Charizard X. Dragonite lacks imediate power so it's a better option to run CB.
LO Sheer Force Conkeldurr -> B
Probably his best set atm. Most people expect Conkeldurr is AV with Guts, so they will not try to burn your Conk. With LO Conk is very strong, his Mach Punch hits quite hard.
Special is easily the best set because it simply slaughters bulky offense and balance builds, which struggle to handle it defensively due to its great coverage and power. It's a very consistent and useful set on the whole.
Defensive DD Altaria -> A
It just struggles to really do much in the metagame... it loses to all common steels (Ferro, Scizor, Skarm, Jirachi, Gross, Tran, Zone...) which means it needs pretty significant support and even then a pretty good matchup to put in work, as it just doesn't have a good level of power.
Support Altaria -> A+
Not as good as DD and Special Attacker imo. It checks a lot of threats but really lacks offensive presence.
Stallbreaker Heatran -> A
CM Mega Sableye -> A
This set shouldn't be underrated. It's a very good win condition for defensive teams once his checks have been removed. Sableye is also quite hard to 2HKO at +1.
Defensive Starmie -> A
This set is as good as the Offensive Spinner. Defensive Starmie is a much more reliable spinner than the Offensive because it's not quickly worn down. It beats most of his checks with Reflect Type so it can be hard to deal with.
Choice Specs Raikou -> B+
Simply worse than AV Raikou. AV is the main reason to use Raikou because it checks many Special Attacker. This is also Raikou's main asset over Mega Manectric. Choice Specs suffers of the competition from Mega Mancectric who is faster, has Intimidate and Fire coverage. Moreover Raikou dislikes to be locked in one move because it's easy to take advantage of it.
DD Dragonite -> B
This set is in one word outclassed by other Dragon Dancers, mainly Charizard X. Dragonite lacks imediate power so it's a better option to run CB.
LO Sheer Force Conkeldurr -> B
Probably his best set atm. Most people expect Conkeldurr is AV with Guts, so they will not try to burn your Conk. With LO Conk is very strong, his Mach Punch hits quite hard.
I'd probably agree with the Conkeldurr thing since it seems more effective currently than AV.
However Choice Specs is the set that got Raikou to A- in the first place. It's definitely as good if not better than AV and it is more powerful than Mega Manectric, being able to 2HKO mixed Hippowdon with HP [Ice].
I also don't agree with Defensive DD Altaria dropping. Yeah it's checked by a lot but weaken those a bit and it sets up on sooooooooo many things in this tier its ridiculous. Also it IS support for the rest of the team considering how hard it is to take out and it often runs Heal Bell.
However Choice Specs is the set that got Raikou to A- in the first place. It's definitely as good if not better than AV and it is more powerful than Mega Manectric, being able to 2HKO mixed Hippowdon with HP [Ice].
I also don't agree with Defensive DD Altaria dropping. Yeah it's checked by a lot but weaken those a bit and it sets up on sooooooooo many things in this tier its ridiculous. Also it IS support for the rest of the team considering how hard it is to take out and it often runs Heal Bell.
Ptyra I think you are really underselling how much weight more defensive Mega Altaria sets pull. The insane amount of stuff it just hard walls or checks is absurd. Off the top of my head I've got Thundurus, Latios, Keldeo, Garchomp, Char-Y, Char-X, Mega Gyara, Mega Sceptile, Mega Manectric, Mega Lopunny, Breloom, Crawdaunt, CB Nite, Scarf TTar... I'm sure there's more but defensive sets are really really easy to build around. Altaria + Fairy check + Bird check covers you solidly against virtually the entire meta, with a straggler here or there (Meta or Lando check I guess?).
I think Gyarados Specially Defensive should rise to B+. It is one of the most reliable counter to Landorus, and he checks others special attackers, including Keldeo (it doesn't fear burn because of Rest), Charizard Y and Heatran. It can switch into Gengar and Tornadus-T LO too if Stealth Rock aren't up. Furthermore, it can also checks some physical threats like Scizor or Conkeldurr lacking Thunder Punch thanks to Intimidate. It can also phaze / cripple with Thunder Wave Charizard X.
Long ass post. Forgive me.
I will add Hippo's specially defensive set at A. It's definitely as effective as the mixed set at being a blanket check to a bunch of threatening shit.
Yeah, like AM said, Scarf is great as a revenge killer/cleaner, but the lack of power is kinda a let down. Running a Modest nature can help sometimes, but there are some important things that Modest Scarf doesn't outspeed (ScarfChomp and CharX at +1 are two that come to mind), so Timid is the better option for most teams. Timid Scarf is considerably exploitable because many things resists Keldeo's dual STABs, and certain metagame trends (SpDef Talon, AV Torn-T, Slowbro/Slowking, Celebi) aren't friendly to the Scarf set. Its fine where it is. SubCM was a point of contention, but ultimately its still just as effective as it was when Keldeo moved to S rank on the VR thread.
I agree on a rise for Stallbreaker Tran. You've summed up the reasons here pretty nicely. To A it goes.
M-Altaria is just great. Honestly, I could see any/all of its sets in S. I wholly think it is the best mega atm. See other posts for why none of its sets should drop.
CM Mega Sableye is really hurt by the presence of Fairies, and there are other potent CM sweepers that are far more splashable (Clef, Keld, even Lando-I). Magic Bounce is great and all, but yeah I think CM Eye is fine in A-.
Defensive Starmie is somewhat strapped for moveslots as it has to pick between beating Keld with Psyshock and beating Pursuit trappers/Ferro with Reflect Type. I think the offensive set is better because you never know what moves Starmie is running, and even if you do, very few things like switching in to a LO/Analytic boosted Hydro Pump.
Specskou is great as ever, sitting at a cool base 115 speed with impressive power to boot. Its a great asset for many teams, especially hazard stacking/volt-turn. Prediction sucks, but unless the opposing team is running some bulky ground or like M-Amphy, its going to spend a lot of the match playing around Raikou. Mono-electric typing is also not bad at all, with only one weakness (albeit a common one) and an ever-useful Flying resistance.
DD Dragonite has some advantages over other DDers. Not taking up a mega slot is a pretty big one, and Multiscale is actually super fucking helpful if paired with good hazard support.
I agree on a LO Conk rise. It is his best set atm because AV is just not as great as it once was. SF + LO is that oh so classic combination that makes any mon an offensive powerhouse. Conk also has a pretty good movepool to utilize with it, so B seems fitting to me.
I'm interested to hear thoughts on this. At this point I feel a bit against it because RestTalk isn't all that reliable and that SR weakness sucks. I could be convinced though.
I will add Hippo's specially defensive set at A. It's definitely as effective as the mixed set at being a blanket check to a bunch of threatening shit.
Yeah, like AM said, Scarf is great as a revenge killer/cleaner, but the lack of power is kinda a let down. Running a Modest nature can help sometimes, but there are some important things that Modest Scarf doesn't outspeed (ScarfChomp and CharX at +1 are two that come to mind), so Timid is the better option for most teams. Timid Scarf is considerably exploitable because many things resists Keldeo's dual STABs, and certain metagame trends (SpDef Talon, AV Torn-T, Slowbro/Slowking, Celebi) aren't friendly to the Scarf set. Its fine where it is. SubCM was a point of contention, but ultimately its still just as effective as it was when Keldeo moved to S rank on the VR thread.
I agree on a rise for Stallbreaker Tran. You've summed up the reasons here pretty nicely. To A it goes.
M-Altaria is just great. Honestly, I could see any/all of its sets in S. I wholly think it is the best mega atm. See other posts for why none of its sets should drop.
CM Mega Sableye is really hurt by the presence of Fairies, and there are other potent CM sweepers that are far more splashable (Clef, Keld, even Lando-I). Magic Bounce is great and all, but yeah I think CM Eye is fine in A-.
Defensive Starmie is somewhat strapped for moveslots as it has to pick between beating Keld with Psyshock and beating Pursuit trappers/Ferro with Reflect Type. I think the offensive set is better because you never know what moves Starmie is running, and even if you do, very few things like switching in to a LO/Analytic boosted Hydro Pump.
Specskou is great as ever, sitting at a cool base 115 speed with impressive power to boot. Its a great asset for many teams, especially hazard stacking/volt-turn. Prediction sucks, but unless the opposing team is running some bulky ground or like M-Amphy, its going to spend a lot of the match playing around Raikou. Mono-electric typing is also not bad at all, with only one weakness (albeit a common one) and an ever-useful Flying resistance.
DD Dragonite has some advantages over other DDers. Not taking up a mega slot is a pretty big one, and Multiscale is actually super fucking helpful if paired with good hazard support.
I agree on a LO Conk rise. It is his best set atm because AV is just not as great as it once was. SF + LO is that oh so classic combination that makes any mon an offensive powerhouse. Conk also has a pretty good movepool to utilize with it, so B seems fitting to me.
I'm interested to hear thoughts on this. At this point I feel a bit against it because RestTalk isn't all that reliable and that SR weakness sucks. I could be convinced though.
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I don't agree with raising Gyarados SpDef set at all. I think it's a somewhat overloaded set where its functionality is based on a lot of circumstances that are not actually in its favor. Like sure you can say when rocks are out of the picture it can switch in but there's a lot of cases where this isn't going to happen and even then a lot of these attackers like Gengar and Torn-T can still put a huge dent in forcing you to rest and lose your momentum. The fact still remains it's only a momentary switch in when you consider worst case scenarios they'll be forced to switch out if not pressure you enough so that you stop becoming a switch in to whatever this sets suppose to do. Sure it can sort of hinder some things here and there but it's not like it actually poses some monumental threat or defensive traits that would put it on par with B+ stuff rated sets that pose more stability and or uses.
I don't agree with most of these but urbandear explained why. Just an fyi just from reading it. Also celtic touched upon the support altaria set. Thing is absurdly good on stall teams and not having it at S is just silly.
Why is mega chomp's set called sand force sweeper? It should be wallbreaker as it's too slow to sweep but fast enough to wallbreak effectively. Add custap forretress and dual screens keys as well.
I just want to add one thing 'bout Dragonite that it got over other DDancers, Extreme Speed. Sure, it's not STAB, but just the fact that he's not threaten by Ice Shards, the bravest bird, Thundy-I's T-Wave and some other Priority schaningans.
Priority attacks is something many set-up sweepers would love. And Dragonite gets +2 priority! Keep the DD set B+.
Priority attacks is something many set-up sweepers would love. And Dragonite gets +2 priority! Keep the DD set B+.
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