Metagame np: Stage 8 - Dream at Tempo 119 (READ POST #119)

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One Pokemon that I think is incredible right now is Sawk, it just tears through so many teams with Close Combat + Knock Off that its not even funny. Skuntank is Sawk fodder, Shiftry can barely touch it (although Sawk cant switch in), and the loss of Uxie and Fletchinder make things much easier for it.

Instead of talking about critpass Combusken (tho that is cool), what do you all think of Sawk in this metagame? What are the best ways to use it? Is it the #1 Pokemon in NU like some people make it out to be, or is it really overrated right now :O id like to here some opinions on Sawk!
 
Something surprising I have found is that jolly Sawk is somewhat viable in this meta. Jolly allows it to actually be a "switch in" to Shiftry. I'd like to say most Shiftry are +speed so they will typically stay in on Sawk to ko with knock + leaf storm or knock + leaf blade and instead get blown back. My point is Sawk is incredibly versatile. I could easily see this thing being suspected because imo, has no counters. We honestly only have checks to Sawk. Common switch ins to Sawk include poison types which are bopped by eq or zen headbutt, flying types which are destroyed by stone edge or psychic types that are destroyed by knock off. At least with other fighting types in the tier, they dont have all this coverage. Primeass and Shitmonchan im looking at you. Lastly i dont think its overrated at all, Sawk is honestly so good at wallbreaking because of the raw power it possesses.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
whenever I play NU, i've always viewed Sawk as the greatest threat. Granted i haven't played during the Magneton meta and I probably missed some other broken mon dropping then getting the hell out of dodge, but you get the point.

it's got insane coverage, insane power, and I hear sturdy is quite the useful ability. Mold breaker EQ certainly isn't shabby either.

i guess I don't have much in terms of solid words, but sawk is just such a massive threat, i feel it viscerally any time I play against it 'oh shit, they have a sawk'. in so many situations it can just grab a kill, especially if you don't have a granbull / weezing
 

QueenOfLuvdiscs

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The fact that the only 'counter' to Sawk is ResTalk Granbull should say something about it -_-. Man, why did GF have to buff Knock Off?

Jolly CB Sawk is honestly so good rn because everything creeps for Ada variants (Kanga and Xatu the 2 mons I can think of rn), and being able to outspeed Kabu, Mesp and Shiftry is great. It may miss out on some OHKOs (that's what hazards are for) but even still, the ability to just bop everything before than can bop you is deffo worth it.
 

One Pokemon that I think is incredible right now is Sawk, it just tears through so many teams with Close Combat + Knock Off that its not even funny. Skuntank is Sawk fodder, Shiftry can barely touch it (although Sawk cant switch in), and the loss of Uxie and Fletchinder make things much easier for it.

Instead of talking about critpass Combusken (tho that is cool), what do you all think of Sawk in this metagame? What are the best ways to use it? Is it the #1 Pokemon in NU like some people make it out to be, or is it really overrated right now :O id like to here some opinions on Sawk!
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Honestly I've wholeheartedly believed from the beginning of BW through the advent of XY and ORAS that Sawk has been the single best pokemon that any offensive team can bring. It has the power and coverage to muscle through defensive checks, and while its speed is somewhat lackluster its high power allows it to run a Jolly nature, which in tangent wiht Sturdy makes it a dangerous cleaner and revenge killer for offensive teams to tackle. I don't think it is at all overrated for the simple reason that its one of those pokemon that you can throw on any team with minimal support. Possibly outside of Tauros it is the single best physical attacker in the tier. Fuck chops that shits overrated
 

Vileman

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Ive been using ebelt sturdy sawk lately and it fucking owns, it lures common walls who die after CC + coverage move, but as it usually is choiced it gets some nice early koes 8)
Sawk @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 6 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
Maybie theres a better option over ice punch but torterra annoys me so idk @_@

EDIT: could also work with custap to lure faster mons oo
 

Pokedots

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Sawk's the best Pokemon in the tier in my opinion, and if not it's definitely one of the most important Pokemon to prepare for. Between Knock Off, Zen Headbutt, and Stone Edge (you don't need EQ but it's really nice for Garb), it can 2 or OHKO basically anything except for Granbull and Colbur Mush and Gourgeist with prediction (and honestly this prediction isn't that hard most of the time, if they have a Vileplume they'll go to Vileplume and if they have a Scyther they'll go to Scyther, at least early game); however, while in teambuilding this calls the need for more than one answer, in practice this is easy to take advantage of, as if your Vileplume gets hit by Zen coming in, you can just switch to your Rhydon or Dark type after that and Moonlight back HP afterwards (though it's important to note that after predicting once, it can't switch into Sawk again), and while we don't have many counters at all we have a lot of checks. Sturdy's also a godly ability with hazard control, giving it a surprisingly good matchup against offense and even some sweeping potential in spite of its only decent speed. This thing wraps the meta mostly because of its huge influence in teambuilding, and is the main reason Fighting checks (at least 2 of them, one of them if it's a really good one and my other pokes aren't bait to it/are faster) are one of the first things you think about when teambuilding; it might be a bit broken to an extent, but I don't know if it warrants a suspect (and I personally find stuff like Combusken even harder to deal with ngl, as not only are its STABs hard to consistently wall, passing Speed to stuff like Mesprit, Malamar, and Shiftry is pretty insane; missing is its only significant problem honestly).

And the cherry on top is that Sawk doesn't need any support to do its job outside of the standard stuff you'd have on a team (Flying check, Fighting check, Water check, etc.), but if you give it stuff like Pursuit support from Skuntank and hazard control it becomes extremely difficult to manage, and more than a few times I've seen it sweep slower teams that only have one thing faster than it left.

The main flaws I find with it is that it doesn't really offer much of anything defensively (other than a really useful Sucker Punch resistance); while it can act as an emergency check to most sweepers thanks to Sturdy, synergy wise it can't actually switch into anything. And its speed, while enough to outspeed at least 2 things in most teams, leaves it easily revenged if its Sturdy is broken. Other than that, Sawk's really easy to fit on a team, offers a ton as a wallbreaker that can actually beat a lot of its answers with prediction and a few switch-ins, and is overall just an all-around incredible Pokemon. u can use it too
 
Having a double check to Sawk can be very annoying too for a Choiced Sawk. Imagine, let's say, Scyther (Ice Punch, Stone Edge) and Vileplume (Ice Punch and Zen Headbutt)... when you notice this, you see that Ice Punch (if Sawk carries it) is the best option. Mold Breaker Sawk likely will because it can use EQ to hit Weezing regardless.

However, now my checks are Scyther and Misdreavus (Knock Off, MB Earthquake).

If you use Earthquake - Misdreavus would make that very tempting - Scyther can and will take advantage. In short, you'll click a move neither of them resists - say, Ice Punch or Stone Edge - but instead Poliwrath comes in.

In Gen V - before the Knock Off buff - I played this game with Leavanny and Misdreavus, which worked well enough. Half the time I just switched Gurdurr into Sawk because Stone Edge is the most obvious move to click when you notice this pair being there.
 
Finally, I read so much good rating around Sawk. Its versatility and its large movepool is unique. I think Mold Breaker/Jolly/EQ + 3 attack is the better set; I think EQ is the key against Levitate 'mons as Mismagius, Misdreavus, Cryogonal (Yes, why do you have to use Close Combat? 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cryogonal: 335-395 (119.2 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO) new entry Skuntank or Weezing. Then, EQ is really important against common Lanturn, Garbodor, and Pyroar.

So I think that EQ is better than Stone Edge in most cases.
 
It was a long time i wait for see Hitmonchan in NU, I really like this Pokémon, and I think, he can be really good, he can be a good set up sweeper (bu) with he's priority (Mach punch). I really like Shiftry too. Since he had up to RU, I wait for he's drop. It was one of my favorite mon in NU. I really like he's move set, he can easily perforate every kind of team if well played. But with those drop and the up of uxie/fletchinder, Sawk going to be insane, he's not really unstopable but it's a huge threat for all kind of teams atm I don't really see who can take the CB/LO Mold Breaker.
 
Finally, I read so much good rating around Sawk. Its versatility and its large movepool is unique. I think Mold Breaker/Jolly/EQ + 3 attack is the better set; I think EQ is the key against Levitate 'mons as Mismagius, Misdreavus, Cryogonal (Yes, why do you have to use Close Combat? 252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cryogonal: 335-395 (119.2 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO) new entry Skuntank or Weezing. Then, EQ is really important against common Lanturn, Garbodor, and Pyroar.

So I think that EQ is better than Stone Edge in most cases.
I definitely disagree with this. Sturdy is one of the saving graces of Sawk, since it helps it pull its weight vs faster and more offensive teams incredibly well. Zen Headbutt hits all of the Pokemon you mentioned except Skuntank, which only appreciates switching into Knock Off, as it dies to Close Combat and gets 2HKO'd by Stone Edge. Misdreavus hates losing its Eviolite to Knock Off, while Mismagius can live one with Colbur, but then it stops being a check as it's at less than 25% HP. No sane person would switch in Cryogonal as it drops to every single common move Sawk carries after Rocks (assuming bulky variant).
Lanturn and Pyroar are definitely not switch-ins to Sawk under any circumstances, as Knock Off has a chance to kill Pyroar after Rocks, and Close Combat OHKOs Lanturn after Rocks, so to say that it's "really important" to carry it is faulty. The only argument for EQ is that it hits Garbodor without Rocky Helmet + Aftermath recoil, which is fair- but again, it's really only that relevant on Sturdy variants so they can keep their Sturdy for another occasion.
Without Stone Edge, you don't beat bulky Flying types (which have been on the rise specifically for Sawk) as reliably- for example, Scyther, Rotom-S, Pelipper are threats you hit with Knock Off, but not quite hard enough, and these Pokemon all suddenly switch in for free on an EQ. Another reason I don't like EQ is that it gives Scyther free setup- at least with Knock Off you're taking care of its Eviolite.

Jolly CB Sawk is honestly so good rn because everything creeps for Ada variants (Kanga and Xatu the 2 mons I can think of rn), and being able to outspeed Kabu, Mesp and Shiftry is great. It may miss out on some OHKOs (that's what hazards are for) but even still, the ability to just bop everything before than can bop you is deffo worth it.
This is also something I've been saying for a while- every 75+ speed tier mon wants to outspeed Adamant Sawk, to the point that running Adamant is honestly a bit of a liability at this point. Jolly allows you to beat all the mons QoL mentioned and if push comes to shove- other Sawk.


While I think Sawk definitely has a lot of strengths, I generally do not think it's broken simply because it relies on Choice Band so much for its power. Fist Plate/Expert Belt variants have existed for a very long time, but aside from surprise factor they have little else to offer, as Sawk's power no longer seems as monstrous and it gains a lot of checks while its existing ones just become even tougher to take down. Another issue is that, if your opponent has sufficient type synergy, sometimes picking a move to lock yourself into is a very demanding job- and the fact that everyone makes sure you can't click Close Combat freely is a liability that Sawk has to rely on its teammates for, for the most part. The old motto of "Knock Off is always the best move", while somewhat true, is incredibly predictable and easy to take advantage of with Pokemon such as Vileplume, who can just get all their health with recovery after a Knock Off. With absolutely 100% perfect prediction in an ideal world with all of its coverage moves, Sawk has absolute reign over the tier- but in practice, everyone prepares for it sufficiently, either with faster Pokemon that threaten it out after a kill, or something that can take the appropriate coverage move with negligible damage. It's not so mindless that you can just click a move and watch everything die, except in the case that your opponent has no answers, but really, that's true for the other two S-tier offensive Pokemon as well, Archeops and Tauros.


That said, it's undeniable it got so much better with the addition of Skuntank, as it beats Ghost and Psychic types to help Sawk spam Close Combat at ease, removing one of its biggest challenges. Its lack of good resistances is definitely a bit of a bummer since you have to watch out for a chance to double to have a go at your opponent's team, but this is a common flaw of offensive Pokemon, and Sawk handles it a lot better because it has at least the theoretical opportunity to switch in with its decent bulk + Sturdy. I've been downplaying Sawk a bit in this post, but it's a Pokemon I've been enjoying greatly lately and it definitely deserves its place up there with the best- as perhaps the best of them all. Certainly not overrated and it's sure to leave a presence in the tier for a long time, as one of its most defining threats.
 
I definitely disagree with this. Sturdy is one of the saving graces of Sawk, since it helps it pull its weight vs faster and more offensive teams incredibly well. Zen Headbutt hits all of the Pokemon you mentioned except Skuntank, which only appreciates switching into Knock Off, as it dies to Close Combat and gets 2HKO'd by Stone Edge. Misdreavus hates losing its Eviolite to Knock Off, while Mismagius can live one with Colbur, but then it stops being a check as it's at less than 25% HP. No sane person would switch in Cryogonal as it drops to every single common move Sawk carries after Rocks (assuming bulky variant).

Lanturn and Pyroar are definitely not switch-ins to Sawk under any circumstances, as Knock Off has a chance to kill Pyroar after Rocks, and Close Combat OHKOs Lanturn after Rocks, so to say that it's "really important" to carry it is faulty. The only argument for EQ is that it hits Garbodor without Rocky Helmet + Aftermath recoil, which is fair- but again, it's really only that relevant on Sturdy variants so they can keep their Sturdy for another occasion.
Without Stone Edge, you don't beat bulky Flying types (which have been on the rise specifically for Sawk) as reliably- for example, Scyther, Rotom-S, Pelipper are threats you hit with Knock Off, but not quite hard enough, and these Pokemon all suddenly switch in for free on an EQ. Another reason I don't like EQ is that it gives Scyther free setup- at least with Knock Off you're taking care of its Eviolite.

....
IMO, Sturdy is a good ability but it's very difficult to be viable. Sawk is not a lead and very often you've got to do with many situations (SR or a former battle damage) where Sturdy is useless. You are right, Zen Headbutt hits all of the Pokemon, but it can hit, his accuracy is not 100%, while Close Combat lowers its defenses. Surely, they are good moves and above all Close Combat is always in Sawk's moveset. But why don't use what Sawk can use without risks and with the same effectiveness?

Around Lanturn ad Pyroar we are in the same circumstances. Why do we have to make a choice between "has a chance to kill after Rocks" when we have in our pocket an easy solution with an identical defence capacity? I'll use Knock Off and Close Combat when it's necessary, not because we have to do that. Even with a Jolly nature:

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 304-359 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 359-424 (114.6 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scyther is faster than no scarf Sawk, so I think it's not so important what Stone Edge can do vs it. Considering what I told before about Sturdy, that's what happens most of the time, you have to switch out. The same thing is vs Archeops.

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 498-588 (170.5 - 201.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I know, it's only my point of view. But it's because we should try to focus and think twice before don't select Earthquake in Sawk's moveset. However, this discussion is once again demonstrating, if that is needed, how is important Sawk's versatility in NU. Many 'mons are only an competitive ability, poor movepool, etc. Sawk is really different. A bold S.
 
IMO, Sturdy is a good ability but it's very difficult to be viable. Sawk is not a lead and very often you've got to do with many situations (SR or a former battle damage) where Sturdy is useless. You are right, Zen Headbutt hits all of the Pokemon, but it can hit, his accuracy is not 100%, while Close Combat lowers its defenses. Surely, they are good moves and above all Close Combat is always in Sawk's moveset. But why don't use what Sawk can use without risks and with the same effectiveness?

Around Lanturn ad Pyroar we are in the same circumstances. Why do we have to make a choice between "has a chance to kill after Rocks" when we have in our pocket an easy solution with an identical defence capacity? I'll use Knock Off and Close Combat when it's necessary, not because we have to do that. Even with a Jolly nature:

252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 304-359 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 359-424 (114.6 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Scyther is faster than no scarf Sawk, so I think it's not so important what Stone Edge can do vs it. Considering what I told before about Sturdy, that's what happens most of the time, you have to switch out. The same thing is vs Archeops.

252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 498-588 (170.5 - 201.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I know, it's only my point of view. But it's because we should try to focus and think twice before don't select Earthquake in Sawk's moveset. However, this discussion is once again demonstrating, if that is needed, how is important Sawk's versatility in NU. Many 'mons are only an competitive ability, poor movepool, etc. Sawk is really different. A bold S.
Umm I don't know how much oras NU you've been playing but Sturdy is THE REASON to be using Sawk. Hazards are so incredibly easy to keep off the field with an ample amount of defoggers and spinners in the tier, and a player playing Sawk on the offensive through aggressive pressure shouldn't really be taking much damage as he will only play Sawk against slower mons. This allows Sawk to muscle through setup sweepers, fastmons i.e. Scyther and Swellow, etc. which is what makes it such an omnipresent threat in the metagame.s
 

Punchshroom

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The Quasar Sturdy is more viable than Mold Breaker simply because Sawk doesn't need Mold Breaker to hit everything it needs to with equally little risk, whereas Sturdy gives Sawk the chance to punch a hole into anything regardless of whether or not the target is faster; maintaining Sturdy is also easier in this meta due to the better hazard removal. I don't know where you got the impression that Close Combat's defense drops count as "risks" to Sawk when it's not a mon that is even supposed to be taking hits in the first place (like Primeape and unlike Hariyama), not to mention Sturdy alleviates those concerns. I've no idea why you talked about Mold Breaker EQ hitting Cryogonal, Lanturn, and Pyroar in one fell swoop when Close Combat already butchers the lot; you even put Life Orb in your calcs so your argument about "not using Close Combat to preserve defenses" goes out of the window already. To get to the point, Earthquake is less useful than Stone Edge on Sawk since Zen Headbutt already hits every Poison-type Earthquake wants to hit (while also hitting Vileplume which EQ misses out on), making EQ a redundant coverage move outside of not making contact with Garbodor to preserve Sturdy (and again, you're using Life Orb), whereas Stone Edge lets Sawk power through bulky Flying-types which it could not before, such as Eviolite Scyther, defensive Rotom-S, and Pelipper, although Stealth Rock alone puts pressure on them as is.


Traits: With 125 base Attack coupled with 120 BP STAB and the ability to hold an item (unlike Archeops), Sawk's raw damage output is easily one of the greatest in the entire tier. It also has a 85 base Speed stat, which is significantly high for a Pokemon which hits that insanely hard; this means Sawk easily has the potential to define its Speed tier. Sawk even possesses fairly flawless coverage: between Close Combat, Knock Off, Zen Headbutt, and Stone Edge, with virtually nothing in the tier bar Granbull is truly safe from Sawk's blows, while also being the biggest reason why Psychic-types carry Colbur Berry. Even its abilities are useful to it, though Mold Breaker much less so these days; Sturdy on the other hand gives Sawk at least one hit against anything if you can keep it intact, and not many mons enjoy taking hits from Sawk.

Trends: Sawk is undoubtedly one of the biggest benefactors of the meta shift. The departure of Fletchinder and Uxie and the arrival of Skuntank and Shiftry are nothing but good news for Sawk. The addition of Shiftry, as well as the fact that Uxie users are expected to resort to Mesprit, mean that the 80 base Speed tier is becoming more crowded, making Jolly Sawk more usable than before. Sawk doesn't particularly mind the loss in raw strength either, since it now has partners that can easily compensate for it and facilitate its destructive prowess. Skuntank can Pursuit trap basically all the Psychic-types in the tier (or play mindgames with Taunt against Baton Pass Musharna), and between Skunk's Pursuit and Sawk's Knock Off, the Psychic-types Colbur Berry is hardly expected to stay long enough to sufficiently keep Sawk in check. Shiftry on the other hand has access to Defog to help keep Sawk's Sturdy intact, and can lure out bulky Poison-types to soften them up for Sawk, especially if Shiftry has Extrasensory. This powerful support make it ridiculously easy for Sawk to break teams with minimal risk to itself. What Sawk is most expected to run probably depends on the current metagame trends; if bulky Flying-types such as Pelipper and Rotom-S start seeing more use, then Sawk would probably just keep Choice Band to hammer stuff as hard as it possibly can, especially since the Flying-types have a much harder time keeping CB Sawk at bay if Stealth Rock is in play. If bulky Flying-types don't see as much play, Sawk can afford to drop Stone Edge and mix it up with Black Belt or Expert Belt, and/or even pack Taunt in order to mess with bulky mons even further by preventing status moves, such as Thunder Wave, Baton Pass, Will-O-Wisp, or recovery on your switch-in; Sawk can even attempt to beat Gourgeist 1v1 this way.

Thoughts: On one hand, it's not just Sawk that has received a boon in this meta; literally all the Fighting-type Pokemon in the tier receive a substantial buff to their effectiveness. However, Sawk is unarguably the most offensively potent of the available Fighting mons due to its sheer power, good Speed tier, and a very capable movepool (which gives additional versatility which it frankly doesn't even need D:), thus allowing it to make the most devastating use of that support. The only thing holding Sawk back is that its counters and responses have good longevity, or in Garbodor's case can whittle away at Sawk to compensate for its lack of recovery. Sawk is definitely far from overrated in this meta, as with its newfound support it has become one of the easiest / low-risk-high-reward Pokemon to use right now.
 
@Punchrooms and Brawlfest, I think dropping Sawk defense when you can do something different but at the same effective it's not so good. I like to use Life Orb. Yes, because LO assures me that I can hit opponent with another attack move, without locks the user into one move. I think it's better use all movepool with a real coverage. Locked into one move means often to switch it away, when you use CC that's even worse. You are speaking about Sawk which don't take hits in the first place. But I like to be with Sawk on field and take advantage for his movepool without switch out it, as much as possible. How I can do it if it's band and with drop defenses? I don't tell it's not good. I'm talking about a moveset almost as good.

Perphaps EQ is not redundant, it's quite the reverse. I think EQ enables a better choice for last slot (considering Close Combat and Knock Off). Many times I choice Thunder Punch or Ice Punch. But it's depending on coverage team, of course.

I've no idea why you talked about Mold Breaker EQ hitting Cryogonal, Lanturn, and Pyroar in one fell swoop when Close Combat already butchers the lot; you even put Life Orb
With Choice Band, that are calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cryogonal: 1388-1634 (493.9 - 581.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (defense drop)
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cryogonal: 335-395 (119.2 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (no defense drop, no locked on EQ)
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 313-370 (78 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (defense drop)
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 304-359 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (no defense drop, no locked on EQ)
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 746-878 (238.3 - 280.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (defense drop)
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 359-424 (114.6 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 276-326 (88.1 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 228-270 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (with Rocky Helmet + Aftermath recoil)
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 250-294 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I think blue italic calcs deserve some consideration, despite I understand what are speaking about. IMO I consider this to be a true alternative.
 

boltsandbombers

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@Punchrooms and Brawlfest, I think dropping Sawk defense when you can do something different but at the same effective it's not so good. I like to use Life Orb. Yes, because LO assures me that I can hit opponent with another attack move, without locks the user into one move. I think it's better use all movepool with a real coverage. Locked into one move means often to switch it away, when you use CC that's even worse. You are speaking about Sawk which don't take hits in the first place. But I like to be with Sawk on field and take advantage for his movepool without switch out it, as much as possible. How I can do it if it's band and with drop defenses? I don't tell it's not good. I'm talking about a moveset almost as good.

Perphaps EQ is not redundant, it's quite the reverse. I think EQ enables a better choice for last slot (considering Close Combat and Knock Off). Many times I choice Thunder Punch or Ice Punch. But it's depending on coverage team, of course.



With Choice Band, that are calcs:

252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cryogonal: 1388-1634 (493.9 - 581.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (defense drop)
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cryogonal: 335-395 (119.2 - 140.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (no defense drop, no locked on EQ)
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 313-370 (78 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (defense drop)
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 304-359 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (no defense drop, no locked on EQ)
252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 746-878 (238.3 - 280.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (defense drop)
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 359-424 (114.6 - 135.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 276-326 (88.1 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Sawk Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 228-270 (62.6 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (with Rocky Helmet + Aftermath recoil)
252 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 250-294 (68.6 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 192-226 (52.7 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I think blue italic calcs deserve some consideration, despite I understand what are speaking about. IMO I consider this to be a true alternative.
I'll respond to your italicized calcs, since a lot of them dont really make sense.
Cryo: thats great you can bypass its Levitate with Mold Breaker EQ, but you'd have to be silly to consider switching Cryogonal into a fighting type.
Lanturn: It just straight dies to CB Close Combat after very slight prior damage or after Stealth Rocks, and while you are using the non choiced set here as an example the CB set, despite sometimes being prediction reliant, is what makes Sawk the threat that it is.
Pyroar: Same deal here, I dont know why this is relevant since its not switching into Sawk at all.
Garbodor: This is the only reason I'd ever use EQ, as avoiding the Rocky Helmet + Aftermath damage is quite nice, however, Zen Headbutt is almost always better as it hits Vileplume, Weezing, and Garbodor in one moveslot.

I really dont think that EQ is a good coverage move on it, since you kinda have to use it with Mold Breaker which is the inferior ability the significant majority of the time, as others have stated. When it comes to coverage moves on offensive Pokemon you need to consider what relevant stuff that it hits, but especially in Sawk's case its coverage moves are specifically for Pokemon which resist Close Combat, hence why Lanturn, Cryogonal, and Pyroar just arent targets of the move. Being able to check offensive threats and setup sweepers (bar Klinklang) is such a useful trait on an offensive Pokemon in this tier.
 
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I think that mold breaker is going unrecognized for its ability to take out sturdy, hence hit other sturdy sawks. Also its ability to hit weezing as well making it extremely useful, i actually prefer using mold breaker. Also when using a sturdy sawk, you hit garb with zen headbutt taking away sturdy, whilst mold breaker eq avoids aftermath + rocky helmet. Also it goes without saying that if you lack hazard control on your teams that sawk being sturdy is a waste of potential when you can choose to use mold breaker and hit things with eq. I think that both sturdy and mold breaker have their perks, but you shouldn't undermine just how useful mold breaker can be, so i think they're 50/50 on usefulness.

As far as sawk in this meta, it's pretty common to run several checks for fighting types, however it's only recent that people have been choosing to run a non-choiced sawk which is far more dangerous in my opinion than a choice banded one and has been for a while. The only bump i have about using sawk however is that it takes up valuable team synergy that pokemon like gurdurr or hariyama add to the table by being extremely bulky. Sawk also sits in an annoying speed tier which means that you have to fit it around as a wallbreaker whilst also managing to have revenge killers in your team as well as sawk, meaning its very hard to get a reliable core that works well with sawk. Hence it's not as splashable on teams as sneasel, mega-camel or typhlosion since they all added something in the way of team synergy, whereas sawk is purely wall breaker.
It goes without saying its hard to check sawk since it has extremely good wallbreaking potential however i think that it doesn't quite shape the tier, but rather is just hard to check and pairs well with skunk.

I'd also like to point out that i think skunk is extremely overrated and overhyped, it's disappointed me so far :x
 

Disjunction

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I have opinions about Sawk, the Karate Pokémon, as well!

I believe there are a number of comparisons that can be drawn between Sawk and Typhlosion. Obviously there are a handful of differences, such as Sawk's main STAB having more wide spread immunities, less speed, and more attack, but there are a number of glaring similarities.
  • Powerful STAB that you have to deter the spamming of in team builder by running an excess in resists
  • Coverage that beats all except for 1 or 2 of its switch ins
  • 2 great abilities to choose from (Teddeh touched on Mold Breaker and I've agreed with his sentiment completely)
  • Potent lure sets to snag any common switch ins (Charcoal Typh, Fist Plate Sawk)
  • Poor matchup vs offense because of subpar speed (a case can be made for Sawk with Sturdy so it has an even better matchup vs offense compared to Typh)
  • Hates hazards up on the field (Typh losing Eruption power, Sawk losing Sturdy)
However, they have one big difference and that would be the distribution of their solid checks and counters. The most reliable Typhlosion checks were Pokemon who only emerged in viability to beat down Typhlosion (and Hariyama). You don't see any SpDef Pelippers, Mantines, Flareons, or Ninetales anymore because they're mostly subpar in today's meta and fill minor niches. Sawk checks fill a much wider range of niches which means the ability to check Sawk may be a bit taxing in teambuilder (having to carry 2 solid checks can be rough sometimes), but you shouldn't be bending over backwards and dredging some mediocre Pokemon out of the abyss to check it. Garbodor is our premiere spiker, Weezing is a great Tspiker and bulky Taunter, Mismagius is a fast Taunter and solid wincon, Mesprit is an amazing offensive Stealth Rocker, etc.

Typh also didn't have a coverage move that granted it near perfect neutral coverage for NU with 100 BP and removed items. Sawk's coverage options are way more deadly than Typhlosion's Hidden Power Grass, Extrasensory, and Focus Blast.

Just bringing an interesting new angle to look at Sawk from since we're discussing how strong or weak it is in the metagame right now. It's clearly supported by a lack of bulky Ghosts and Psychics, plus the rise of Dark-types to combat any remaining ones so it's definitely strong right now, in my honest opinion!
 
i find skuntank weak af too aside from pursuiting psychic types as teddeh mentioned and even then like every ghost/psychic carries colbur which is annoying af esp since skuntank is a weak bugger. it doesnt do much else lol; don't really like the mon but i guess it's a lilligant check too??

re: sturdy v mold breaker: both are viable, both have their uses. sturdy has some cool applications v offense in that u can stay against stuff that OHKOes you; honestly though i dont find hazard control that incredible since stuff like pilo is pretty damn reliable at keeping rocks and beats most defoggers.

Rhydon i feel like is really godly and annoying as fuck rn, whether it be double dance, rp + 3 atks or support it just doens't die to anything and is fucking annoying as hell. Stuff like prinplup that checks it on most teams is bopped easily by 3 eqs over the course of the match or so. It also beats set up klinklang so ~_~ yeah that's great. I feel like ppl might just take to using fast scarfers to take this thing out since it's really annoying to scout and take hits from this thing reliably.
 

marilli

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Skuntank isn't good because it runs through teams or punch holes in them. The fact that its neutral attacks are weak isn't as relevant for that reason. The defensive and offensive utility skuntank exudes is amazing with pursuit and great typing, and it always is relevant with its priority, taunt, and aftermath combined with the bulk to tank any 1 neutral hit. It just spreads chip damage everywhere it goes, switches into stuff that can be otherwise hard to check like Shiftry, and removes problem pokemons for some S and A+ rank threats.

As I remember from arguments a few months back: "even if u have a skuntank counter, u can still get kills with it. thats op!"

Don't think skuntank is OP per se, maybe you overhyped it early on, but it's still great.
 

ryan

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I'm still not convinced that Skuntank is worth running on a team. The best Fighting-types in the tier don't need Pursuit support because Musharna, basically the only Dark-weak Pokemon that can consistently beat all of our Fighting-types, doesn't lose to Skuntank anyways. The best answers to Fighting-types have been bulky Poison-types pretty much this entire generation, and I don't think Skuntank's addition to the tier would ever change that. Shiftry also punishes bulky Psychic- and Ghost-types, so it's not even just Skuntank that deters their usage.

I haven't played a lot of this metagame, but from scrolling through the tier list, it seems like Torterra and Arbok are really strong right now. Torterra blanket checks a lot of physical attackers and punishes Lanturn better than most other bulkier Pokemon in the tier. It also checks Rhydon, which as many have pointed out is a really strong Pokemon right now, especially while people are still using Skuntank. Arbok also does a great job of punishing common metagame trends because it can set up on a ton of stuff and has coverage that you can adjust to your team's needs. Earthquake takes care of other bulky Poison-types such as Garbodor and Skuntank, while Aqua Tail can cover Rhydon and other bulky Ground-types. Gunk Shot is obviously super strong as well, and with Intimidate to ease setup against more offensive teams and Shed Skin + Rest to dismantle more passive teams, I think Arbok is actually just really good, not even just usable.
 
I think a lot of people can agree with your statements on Torterra, I've been seeing a massive influx of it on the ladder lately and plenty of people giving it a chance in the NU room. It definitely makes sense it would rise in popularity with how splashable the various don sets are on many teams. I've been enjoying the standard tank set but really wanna give the dual dancing set a try despite it not fulfilling the role I originally started using Tort for in the first place.

Setting up w/ Arbok can be a bit difficult against more offensive teams IMO but if you can get the right switch in you're golden. I prefer the CB set but coilbok is pretty cool, I'm interested to see if it actually takes off in the tier.
 

Sweet Jesus

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I'm still not convinced that Skuntank is worth running on a team. The best Fighting-types in the tier don't need Pursuit support because Musharna, basically the only Dark-weak Pokemon that can consistently beat all of our Fighting-types, doesn't lose to Skuntank anyways. The best answers to Fighting-types have been bulky Poison-types pretty much this entire generation, and I don't think Skuntank's addition to the tier would ever change that. Shiftry also punishes bulky Psychic- and Ghost-types, so it's not even just Skuntank that deters their usage.

I haven't played a lot of this metagame, but from scrolling through the tier list, it seems like Torterra and Arbok are really strong right now. Torterra blanket checks a lot of physical attackers and punishes Lanturn better than most other bulkier Pokemon in the tier. It also checks Rhydon, which as many have pointed out is a really strong Pokemon right now, especially while people are still using Skuntank. Arbok also does a great job of punishing common metagame trends because it can set up on a ton of stuff and has coverage that you can adjust to your team's needs. Earthquake takes care of other bulky Poison-types such as Garbodor and Skuntank, while Aqua Tail can cover Rhydon and other bulky Ground-types. Gunk Shot is obviously super strong as well, and with Intimidate to ease setup against more offensive teams and Shed Skin + Rest to dismantle more passive teams, I think Arbok is actually just really good, not even just usable.
One of my most successful teams uses skuntank and hariyama and I don't really use skuntank as a way or pursuiting stuff for yama (in fact I don't even run pursuit). Skuntank is simply there to tank special attacks that yama can't and screams «switch in rhydon» so hard it's really not that hard to pull off a double switch and get in a big water/grass move. I also use skunk's physical defence by adding a helmet because practically nothing ohko's without eq and therefore takes helmet damage twice which is huge when added to aftermath and sucker punch damage and makes skuntank a great sweep stopper while still fulfilling the role of a psychic counter the rest of the time.

Also, just quickly wanted to point out that you really got to watch out before revenging a lanturn with a torterra because offensive variants can (and should) outspeed and ohko with ice beam, no item needed (I stole a game to a good player like that).
 
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TRIRTRIRT
TRIRTRIRT


A really popular core you will see on the ladder is lanturn and plume. Running other cores tend to be somewhat difficult considering how well they check the most prominent wallbreakers in the tier like the rotoms, samurott, sawk, all the other fighting fuckers (gurdurr/hitmonchan/hariyama) and a huge amount of our other top tier threats. Rhydon is also very common for it's substantial physical bulk and it's scarf offensive presence.

However ice type wallbreakers can gain so much momentum from the common responses to popular mons. Yes they are different in their viability but all of them really can thrive in this meta.

252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 152-179 (50.1 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 315-374 (73.4 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 208+ SpD Lanturn: 218-257 (54.3 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Articuno Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vileplume: 413-486 (116.6 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Sub roost articuno is so fucking fun to use XD I'm gonna not explain jynx cause mosta yall should know its lk shenanigans. only thing I want to note is it get's many opportunities to come in.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 226-266 (52.6 - 62%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 195-231 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 382-452 (92.2 - 109.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Snow Warning Aurorus Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 359-424 (86.7 - 102.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Freeze-Dry vs. 40 HP / 216+ SpD Lanturn: 242-289 (60.3 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Probopass????: 328-390 (101.5 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Aurorus is one of the biggest threats we have in the tier. tbph aurorus scares me more then even sawk because ice is so amazing rn. Which brings me to my next point.

252+ SpA Life Orb Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 114-136 (28.5 - 34%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Aurorus Flash Cannon?????? vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 208-247 (52 - 61.7%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Refrigerate Aurorus Hyper Voice vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 132-156 (33 - 39%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


It's note worthy that flash cannon takes away from aurorus's capabilities. But even with it it can't wreck piloswine. Piloswine also come in on a number of common threats and can do a huge chunk of damage with it's coverage.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 236 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 165-196 (41.2 - 49%)
252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 156-184 (53.6 - 63.2%)
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 63-75 (21.6 - 25.7%)
252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 153-181 (38.2 - 45.2%)
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Archeops: 170-204 (58.4 - 70.1%)
+2 252 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 211-249 (52.7 - 62.2%)
252+ Atk Piloswine Icicle Crash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Scyther: 204-242 (72.5 - 86.1%)
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Scyther: 98-116 (34.8 - 41.2%)
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 157-186 (39.2 - 46.5%)
252 Atk Choice Band Scyther U-turn vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 123-145 (30.7 - 36.2%)
252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 144-170 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Switching in to these two fuckers is huge. When they r brought in it is to grab momentum and pilo can slow this down so much. Ice shard has cleaned late game for me (and against me) so many times.

252+ SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 194-230 (48.5 - 57.5%)
252+ SpA Magmortar Focus Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 282-332 (70.5 - 83%)
252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magmortar: 416-492 (117.5 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Piloswine Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Hariyama: 187-222 (43.5 - 51.7%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


I wanted to note early on that piloswine is able to speed creep more then most yamas will and therefore guarantees a fun outspeed. It also kills mortar 1v1.


So uhhhh what do you guys think of ice types rn?
 
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Ares

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Ice types have always been hard to switch into in this meta as well as previous metas as most teams tend to run special walls that get pushed in by Ice-type attacks. Freeze Dry is also very prominent in NU which makes the list of things that can actually take a neutral attack even smaller. On top of this the majority of Ice-types that are threatening have a second dual stab that Pokemon such as Hariyama don't enjoy switching into. There coverage and lack of good defensive Steel-types is the main reason why Ice-types with Freeze Dry are so good. Also just use Grumpig if you're having trouble :toast:


Ice types are good and have always been good, the reason you dont see them to often / nobody tends to prep for them is that from a defensive stand point they tend to be really hard to build around due to the fact that Ice typing is pretty bad defensively.
 
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