I agree with the dropping of hoopa-c, This mon is very trash, he can spinblock defensive starmie tentacruel and maybe LO starmie(with the right prediction), and check keldeo, but his qualitys ands here, i never see someone using This mon correctly, the subCM can only set-up against stall since his physical bulk is shit, the taunt stall-breaker(idk the evs) is decent, but you could run another stall-breaker that wouldn't die to any physical hit. And TR sweeper is just to niche to really work. You can say that he can tank some hits from special attackers and hit back, but you could use hoop-u over it, since he have a higher atk and spa, and doesn't have a x4 weakenss to ghost(shadow ball is way more common than bug buzz). PS: can someone tell me witch set makes This thing B-? Like, i never seen someone using This mon whitout use it as a deadweight(My team isn't even HO)
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
- Start date
- Status
Gothitelle is way better than wobb. Tagging Gothitelle lover ABR so he can explain why.
I also think nidoking should move up to C, possibly even C+. While it's power might not be the best, the fact that it is capable of breaking many defensive cores, or at the very least severely weakening them, is something that's really only shared by a few mons such as manaphy, mega chomp, and latios. Nido king is definitely not as good as all of these, but not to the point where it should be all the way down in C-
Metagross should also probably move up to C+ because people are starting to realize how effective AV really is. It's a solid check to all the non azu non malt fairies running around, and it is an excellent pursuit trapper, being able to pursuit the latis with ease, as well as offensive starmie if you get it in on an ice beam.
I also think nidoking should move up to C, possibly even C+. While it's power might not be the best, the fact that it is capable of breaking many defensive cores, or at the very least severely weakening them, is something that's really only shared by a few mons such as manaphy, mega chomp, and latios. Nido king is definitely not as good as all of these, but not to the point where it should be all the way down in C-
Metagross should also probably move up to C+ because people are starting to realize how effective AV really is. It's a solid check to all the non azu non malt fairies running around, and it is an excellent pursuit trapper, being able to pursuit the latis with ease, as well as offensive starmie if you get it in on an ice beam.
Last edited:
It probably won't move down much due to how good an option it is on balanced spikes stacking teams. As a spinblocker, there isn't really anything else which fills the same role as Hoopa-C. Sure, the incentive to use it is iffy because Hoopa-U exists, but the two have poor synergy anyway once you look past the incentive issue as the two don't really beat anything for one-another. Hoopa-C needs a good amount of support and a way of playing around pursuit trappers (this is done well by Dugtrio, who traps and beats most common Pursuit users besides Weavile (although if your sash is in tact you beat it 1v1 with Reversal if you come in at the same time as it)) with smart luring and hard doubles. Hoopa-C is far from a bad 'mon, it just suffers competition for a teamslot and only fits on very specific team archetypes (which usually involve hazard protection). However, beyond the nasty weaknesses to dark and ghost, this thing is pretty self-sufficient. I am unaware as to what set puts it where it is, but it isn't bad at all.
I'm just going to quote my thoughts on Gothitelle from the thread:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-current-state-of-oras-ou.3547120/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-current-state-of-oras-ou.3547120/
For these reasons, I believe that Gothitelle should be at a much greater viability rank than Wobb.
Last edited:
Looking mainly at the part I bolded. While it's true that a lot of teams are electric weak (especially offensive ones), does that necessarily count against Thundy-T? You have to keep in mind that some conventional electric answers like Hippowdon fail to deal with Thundurus-T as well as they do other electrics (modest HP Ice can 2HKO with minimal residuals iirc, Hippo needs Stone Edge to theaten it, and Hippo can't use it as Slack Off fodder like it can Raikou or Mega Manectric). In addition, a lot of teams bring Latis as their sole check to electrics and, to be honest, they can easily be removed or weakened for Thundurus to sweep with a single boost (this happens to be the case with every electric, as they almost all appreciate Latis gone/weak, but the point still stands that with some support in a vulnerable current metagame, Thundurus-T can do very well). I feel like Thundurus-T offers a lot more to teams than other C+ Pokemon may be able to (I go in depth on this matter in my last post) and while Thundy-T sometimes finds itself in the shadow of other electris types or simply doing well because of match-up vs an unprepared team like you say, it can still be effective like the two scenarios I outlined (and in other cases).
Otherwise, I agree with most of what you say, but lol @ ABR's love for Gothitelle.
For myself with Hoopa-C I've been testing it out on the ladder, out of curiosity. Frankly... the whole spin blocking thing isn't that big of a deal since yes you can spin block Starmie but I can't say that Hoopa-C is necessarily defining itself out of that niche alone, or the ability to use Chansey as a set up bait if it carries sub. What I mean is that it isn't exactly a very defined role, it is much harder to exploit the ghost typing.
Whereas its role as a wall breaker is and that in itself is what Hoopa-C has to offer, the ability to wall break against common Poison, Steel/Psychic cores that tend to proliferate in defensive teams. Of which it still manages to do its job well enough in so far that it still hits the same relevant defensive Pokemon provided the lowered speed tier, you can easily EV it enough to speed creep.
I would say the more viable sets would be the modest LO +3 attacks set, you need to run modest in order to have the same damage output as a neutral fully invested Hoopa-U. Which more or less is difficult to switch into.
That said... my opinion of it is only one thing... That it is a Hoopa-U lite version. Aside of course the lowered offenses, which isn't that big of a deal since as I said modest can run similar damage output as neutral, I think the biggest issue I have with Hoopa-C is actually the addition of the x4 ghost and dark weakness -- which are neutral to Hoopa-U. I put this as an issue because it does miss out on some crucial match ups against offensive teams like Gengar, which being a ghost type doesn't have exactly much switch ins. Whereas the dark type attacks means you'll have to play even more cautious against dark types. That said the loss of dark type also brings about another disadvantage, namely being able to take on Lati@s 1v1 which is a huge deal. Gengar and Lati@s are threats often in more offensive teams which Hoopa-U at least brought to the table as not being deadweight against, whereas the same can't be said of Hoopa-C who struggles against them. I personally think these threats are much harder to fit in an answer for as compared to Keldeo or Starmie, so I did appreciate the ability to act as a check against them.
It does a good job against defensive teams but provided the existence of Hoopa-U I do think a drop is in order since it is literally a Hoopa-U lite it doesn't exactly have stats or abilities that would differentiate it, and the typing comes at a heavy price of some very important match ups. I mean at least Latios and Mega Latios have some form of distinguishing feature over the other even if slightly. In the case of Hoopa-C and Hoopa-U it is literally a form with less stats, less sets, and an arguably worse typing in so much that it adds weaknesses.
Whereas its role as a wall breaker is and that in itself is what Hoopa-C has to offer, the ability to wall break against common Poison, Steel/Psychic cores that tend to proliferate in defensive teams. Of which it still manages to do its job well enough in so far that it still hits the same relevant defensive Pokemon provided the lowered speed tier, you can easily EV it enough to speed creep.
I would say the more viable sets would be the modest LO +3 attacks set, you need to run modest in order to have the same damage output as a neutral fully invested Hoopa-U. Which more or less is difficult to switch into.
That said... my opinion of it is only one thing... That it is a Hoopa-U lite version. Aside of course the lowered offenses, which isn't that big of a deal since as I said modest can run similar damage output as neutral, I think the biggest issue I have with Hoopa-C is actually the addition of the x4 ghost and dark weakness -- which are neutral to Hoopa-U. I put this as an issue because it does miss out on some crucial match ups against offensive teams like Gengar, which being a ghost type doesn't have exactly much switch ins. Whereas the dark type attacks means you'll have to play even more cautious against dark types. That said the loss of dark type also brings about another disadvantage, namely being able to take on Lati@s 1v1 which is a huge deal. Gengar and Lati@s are threats often in more offensive teams which Hoopa-U at least brought to the table as not being deadweight against, whereas the same can't be said of Hoopa-C who struggles against them. I personally think these threats are much harder to fit in an answer for as compared to Keldeo or Starmie, so I did appreciate the ability to act as a check against them.
It does a good job against defensive teams but provided the existence of Hoopa-U I do think a drop is in order since it is literally a Hoopa-U lite it doesn't exactly have stats or abilities that would differentiate it, and the typing comes at a heavy price of some very important match ups. I mean at least Latios and Mega Latios have some form of distinguishing feature over the other even if slightly. In the case of Hoopa-C and Hoopa-U it is literally a form with less stats, less sets, and an arguably worse typing in so much that it adds weaknesses.
Last edited:
I don't use Trick Room myself but I happen to face it a lot on high ladder, and it's not hard to see why, seeing as it is a neat answer to offensive teams and stalls alike. However, the main point here is that regular Diancie should be ranked, as it has been chosen to be the preliminary lead for so many trick room teams with options such as trick room, boom and rocks to boot. It also beats Mega Sableye, making having Stealth Rocks on the opposite side of the field an actual possibility. It doesn't do any more than that, as other sets are outclassed by its mega and not worth using them.
I don't think we have to ignore this poor little bug, seeing as how much of annoyance it is to a lot of teams right now. Yes it needs heavy support, but when you give it the right support oh boy, this thing can't stop walling things left and right. I believe walling completely certain amount of mons such as non knock off Scizor, non HP fire Manaphy (hp fire isn't seen a whole lot these days), Mega Altaria lacking Fire Blast, Non Flamethrower Clefable (everyone uses T-wave let's be honest) , most azus, Keldeo and a lot of things I'm lazy to list right now, coupled with great pivoting capabilities with a slow Baton Pass, Will-o-Wisp, priority in Shadow Sneak and blocking VoltTurn completely makes it an easy D rank in my opinion. Yes it needs MSableye support and maybe Dugtrio, however, if you give it enough support it won't disappoint, did I also say that it completely cockblocks Scald? god this thing is amazing. I believe my fren IAmGingy actually brought it to world cup and it was doing great until Zamrock surprised him with rocky helmet slowbro on a shadow sneak lol. Praise Lord Shedinja. It must live on the viability rankings. If not, oh well I tried atleast.
p2
Banned deucer.
another thing that came to mind are the 3 worst mons in the tier, conkeldurr, zapdos, and sylveon. they're all garbage and deserve a drop at least, i'm thinking C+ for all of them but some people might have different opinions.
conkeldurr is total shit and all it does is annoy offense, it cant break common balance cores because they always have something that walls the living hell out of it and the sheer force set is complete balls when it comes to being able to switch into anything and having any form of longevity. i could go on and on, but anybody that has heard me ranting on about conkeldurr can vouch for how garbage it is.
zapdos and sylveon deserve to get knocked down a bit too, they're garbage as well. zapdos became less relevant when bird spam and pinsir usage died down and is almost completely irrelevant ever since lando got the boot. it faces really strong competition from thundurus as an offensive electric/flying and only has heat wave and defog to separate it and really, that's not enough to keep it in B rank imo. this one could go to B-, but idk
sylveon is just plain garbage, its specs set is slow and frail and can't beat everything it wants to and as a cleric clefable is the better pick 99% of the time. whenever im sitting on the teambuilder in need of an offensive fairy, i just look at sylveon and think "why would i ever want to use this and why is this still ou" and just use clefable/garde/alt/azu. i dont think i've never seen sylveon do anything good, i've never seen it at high level play and i haven't seen any good replays of it, ever.
also fuck shedinja, keep that garbage out of d rank please
conkeldurr is total shit and all it does is annoy offense, it cant break common balance cores because they always have something that walls the living hell out of it and the sheer force set is complete balls when it comes to being able to switch into anything and having any form of longevity. i could go on and on, but anybody that has heard me ranting on about conkeldurr can vouch for how garbage it is.
zapdos and sylveon deserve to get knocked down a bit too, they're garbage as well. zapdos became less relevant when bird spam and pinsir usage died down and is almost completely irrelevant ever since lando got the boot. it faces really strong competition from thundurus as an offensive electric/flying and only has heat wave and defog to separate it and really, that's not enough to keep it in B rank imo. this one could go to B-, but idk
sylveon is just plain garbage, its specs set is slow and frail and can't beat everything it wants to and as a cleric clefable is the better pick 99% of the time. whenever im sitting on the teambuilder in need of an offensive fairy, i just look at sylveon and think "why would i ever want to use this and why is this still ou" and just use clefable/garde/alt/azu. i dont think i've never seen sylveon do anything good, i've never seen it at high level play and i haven't seen any good replays of it, ever.
also fuck shedinja, keep that garbage out of d rank please
Last edited:
I never understood why people call specific Pokemon "garbage" or "total shit" just because of a metagame change. Conkeldurr can't break every core? Zapdos only Defogs in comparison to Thundurus? Sylveon is Sylveon? Wobbuffet is too predictable? Hoopa-C--HURR DURR. News flash: Delibird exists. Until it is removed from all games and a distnant memory, there cannot be a "shit Pokemon". Time for personal opinions.
Conkeldurr sits at a comfortable B-, which I believe is fine. Sure it can't deal with every threat, but it hits well and has great bulk to keep alive in combination with Drain Punch, as well as coverage with Knock Off, Ice Punch, and Stone Edge, plus Mach Punch for priority. Conkeldurr wasn't meant to KO every threat--it was meant to be a bulky offense with Knock Off support. So...we should lower other Pokemon that can't "wall everything"? Does Alakazam need to come down for not hitting Chansey well? Does Scizor need to drop because it can't handle Skarmory or Hippowdon? Does Azumarill need to be robbed of its throne because Mega Venusaur walls it to no end? Every Pokemon has problems--nobody can deny that. Conkeldurr seems not "niche enough" to drop below B-. If anything, Bronzong is closer to that...but that's another bag of worms.
Zapdos vs Thundurus is an argument I'm tired of reading about. "Thundurus is better this, Thundurus is better that, blah blah blah." What DOES Thundurus have over Zapdos? The ability to naturally outspeed Gengar, Prankster, and more support options like Taunt and Knock Off. What does Zapdos have? Bulk and Recovery, as well as a still good speed of 100. It actually has Heat Wave for decent coverage and an answer to Scizor, as well as better bulk to survive more often against it. Is it true that Zapdos would be funnier with Taunt or Knock Off? Yeah, sure, but oh well. Not every Pokemon is perfect. Zapdos isn't meant to be an Offensive Threat like Thundurus, much like Thundurus isn't meant to be a wall. They are both Support Pokemon that do different things. More often than not, I use Thundurus because I dislike Defog (I'm very pro-Rapid Spin), but Zapdos is always a consideration. B Rank seems like a fair ranking, but a B- Rank wouldn't be TOO out of the question.
Sylveon...okay, nobody likes it anymore, which is sad. It's a decent Special Tank with a couple offensive options, but is better as a Cleric. It IS outclassed by Chansey and Clefable as such. The B- rank is deserving enough just from this. If this one dropped, I have no arguments against it.
Now it's time for Wobbuffet. Everybody knows what to expect from it because it literally has 7 moves, with 3 guaranteed already and the 4th one typically item-pending (No Leftovers=Custap Berry=Destiny Bond). Even though this is true, Wobbuffet is guaranteed at least one kill. It's the age old "Oh no! It's Wobbuffet!" everyone has been praising since Gen 3. Why is it so good? Simple: Once it is on the field, you're trapped. Encore will force either constant attacking or constant status, the former is stopped by Counter/Mirror Coat, the latter allows a free switch and single set-up turn, which can mean plenty down the road. Is it more Niche than Gothitelle? I'd personally argue only slightly; Gothitelle's Physical Defense makes it worse off against U-Turn, while its Offenses aren't necessarily the best, but it DOES have more options, making it more unpredictable. I would prefer to see Wobbuffet one ranking below Gothitelle, but that's just me. Dugtrio should go right along with--powerful with Offensive Options, but has the defenses of paper and is limited to grounded opponents (dat Heatran, tho).
Mega Houndoom needs a drop. Too Sun Dependent.
Mega Pidgeot needs a rise. No Guard Hurricane cannot be discounted.
As mentioned, Bronzong needs a drop. Zard and Heatran are too "all over the place".
Can't really elaborate more than that on these right now. Will give more details later.
Conkeldurr sits at a comfortable B-, which I believe is fine. Sure it can't deal with every threat, but it hits well and has great bulk to keep alive in combination with Drain Punch, as well as coverage with Knock Off, Ice Punch, and Stone Edge, plus Mach Punch for priority. Conkeldurr wasn't meant to KO every threat--it was meant to be a bulky offense with Knock Off support. So...we should lower other Pokemon that can't "wall everything"? Does Alakazam need to come down for not hitting Chansey well? Does Scizor need to drop because it can't handle Skarmory or Hippowdon? Does Azumarill need to be robbed of its throne because Mega Venusaur walls it to no end? Every Pokemon has problems--nobody can deny that. Conkeldurr seems not "niche enough" to drop below B-. If anything, Bronzong is closer to that...but that's another bag of worms.
Zapdos vs Thundurus is an argument I'm tired of reading about. "Thundurus is better this, Thundurus is better that, blah blah blah." What DOES Thundurus have over Zapdos? The ability to naturally outspeed Gengar, Prankster, and more support options like Taunt and Knock Off. What does Zapdos have? Bulk and Recovery, as well as a still good speed of 100. It actually has Heat Wave for decent coverage and an answer to Scizor, as well as better bulk to survive more often against it. Is it true that Zapdos would be funnier with Taunt or Knock Off? Yeah, sure, but oh well. Not every Pokemon is perfect. Zapdos isn't meant to be an Offensive Threat like Thundurus, much like Thundurus isn't meant to be a wall. They are both Support Pokemon that do different things. More often than not, I use Thundurus because I dislike Defog (I'm very pro-Rapid Spin), but Zapdos is always a consideration. B Rank seems like a fair ranking, but a B- Rank wouldn't be TOO out of the question.
Sylveon...okay, nobody likes it anymore, which is sad. It's a decent Special Tank with a couple offensive options, but is better as a Cleric. It IS outclassed by Chansey and Clefable as such. The B- rank is deserving enough just from this. If this one dropped, I have no arguments against it.
Now it's time for Wobbuffet. Everybody knows what to expect from it because it literally has 7 moves, with 3 guaranteed already and the 4th one typically item-pending (No Leftovers=Custap Berry=Destiny Bond). Even though this is true, Wobbuffet is guaranteed at least one kill. It's the age old "Oh no! It's Wobbuffet!" everyone has been praising since Gen 3. Why is it so good? Simple: Once it is on the field, you're trapped. Encore will force either constant attacking or constant status, the former is stopped by Counter/Mirror Coat, the latter allows a free switch and single set-up turn, which can mean plenty down the road. Is it more Niche than Gothitelle? I'd personally argue only slightly; Gothitelle's Physical Defense makes it worse off against U-Turn, while its Offenses aren't necessarily the best, but it DOES have more options, making it more unpredictable. I would prefer to see Wobbuffet one ranking below Gothitelle, but that's just me. Dugtrio should go right along with--powerful with Offensive Options, but has the defenses of paper and is limited to grounded opponents (dat Heatran, tho).
Mega Houndoom needs a drop. Too Sun Dependent.
Mega Pidgeot needs a rise. No Guard Hurricane cannot be discounted.
As mentioned, Bronzong needs a drop. Zard and Heatran are too "all over the place".
Can't really elaborate more than that on these right now. Will give more details later.
Granted you're right about Conkeldurr's matchups vs playstyles but offense has only been getting better lately so according to metagame trends it's not getting worse. Especially with things like Excadrill and Weavile running rampant.
Zapdos is one of the best Torn-T checks and isn't a total momentum killer like some other utility mons since it can use Volt Switch. The ability to actually check Bisharp as a Defogger isn't exactly nothing either. While yeah it doesn't appreciate Weavile, that's not enough reason for it to drop IMO. Alright so you lose the Bisharp checking ability but Zapdos' last slot can have things like Toxic / TWave to mess with fatmons/setup sweepers or HP Ice to have better neutral coverage bopping LandoT and Chomp that think they wall Zapdos. Pressure also lets it be the only Defogger that can actually stall out a SR setter. It doesn't beat a ton of setters but it does win against things like Ferrothorn, Ttar (lol yep Pressure stalling Stone Edge against bulky variants), Lando & Chomp if HP Ice and can even stall Hippo out of Stone Edge / SR if you win some 50 50s.
Sylveon I'll agree is kind of bad but the power of Specs shouldn't be underestimated. It does like 50% to CB Scizor which is one of the more common switch-ins on offense. It isn't a balance breaker or anything but its bulky enough to take a hit from offense and do a lot back most of the time, with alright coverage options and Baton Pass as a nice way to keep up momentum.
lol wow i'm seeing some huge hate for some lower tier mons i'm fond of.
well lets try to defend them properly:
conk
zappy
sylveon
well lets try to defend them properly:
conk
well first off, i'd like to point out that dark is really really fucking good. So naturally people will flock to fighting types. Of these, our tier is rather lacking in viable ones. Keldeo automatically pops up, but after that its a pretty rocky road. You either have to use your mega slot (medi, gallade, hera, lop) or the really specific options like terrakion, cobalion, infernape, emboar, toxicroak, and of course, conkeldurr. Of all of the options i listed, you'll notice that conk is the one of the best tanks. Cobal doesn't do jack shit back and keldeo i would consider too fast to be a tank.
But we mostly care about physical bulk here. After all, we're switching into iron heads and knock offs and icicle crashes and stone edges, we can leave dark pulses to fairies. and conk, av or not, does that job well.
So.
fleggum has expressed distaste for the sheer force set, which is the one i'll mainly be vouching for, so lets try to defend that.
You mentioned that
Yeah, conk is the slowest of them all, but you don't exactly see wallbreakers switching into the offensive threats in the meta very often. They're not really expected to. But conk does it fairly well to make up for its speed and it can be used to tank shit, which is helpful in teambuilding.
So the sheer force itself that i run is
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch
- Mach Punch
I think the biggest thing that stands out is being a fairy lure. There really aren't a lot of effective ones. We've all seen the iron head dragonites around 1100 on the ladder and the iron tail mega gyarados that's walled by nape, but the only effective ones are really gunk shot nape (that's pretty much just for mega altaria), kyu-b iron head (pretty much just for clef), and maybe the super occasional sludge wave goodra/thundurus/whatever.
But you really do even see mega gardevoir super confident about switching into conk, not to mention azu and clef and malt, just to get ohko'd. Yeah, even clef. It does this job very well.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 364-429 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
its other moves aren't exactly weak either
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 238-281 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (you can abuse unaware this time, quag ignores your attack drops)
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 168-199 (50.2 - 59.5%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (forced to roost)
Its checks come down to bulky psychics and mega sableye. The former still have to be wary of knock off (even thunderpunch is viable just for slowbro) but i can admit the latter will be hard checks. Poison types like venu get annoying too.
And we obviously shouldn't forget the mach punch it has; it's fairly powerful priority.
Basically, conk is a much better fairy lure than the other shit that's available. And getting rid of fairies+checking darks gives it some consideration on a team. Which is honestly the reason I think it should stay where it is.
But we mostly care about physical bulk here. After all, we're switching into iron heads and knock offs and icicle crashes and stone edges, we can leave dark pulses to fairies. and conk, av or not, does that job well.
So.
fleggum has expressed distaste for the sheer force set, which is the one i'll mainly be vouching for, so lets try to defend that.
You mentioned that
Which i don't really agree with :S its typing and stats are pretty well made for one another, but I question more what you even expect from wallbreakers?
Yeah, conk is the slowest of them all, but you don't exactly see wallbreakers switching into the offensive threats in the meta very often. They're not really expected to. But conk does it fairly well to make up for its speed and it can be used to tank shit, which is helpful in teambuilding.
So the sheer force itself that i run is
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 132 HP / 252 Atk / 124 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch
- Mach Punch
I think the biggest thing that stands out is being a fairy lure. There really aren't a lot of effective ones. We've all seen the iron head dragonites around 1100 on the ladder and the iron tail mega gyarados that's walled by nape, but the only effective ones are really gunk shot nape (that's pretty much just for mega altaria), kyu-b iron head (pretty much just for clef), and maybe the super occasional sludge wave goodra/thundurus/whatever.
But you really do even see mega gardevoir super confident about switching into conk, not to mention azu and clef and malt, just to get ohko'd. Yeah, even clef. It does this job very well.
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Conkeldurr Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 364-429 (92.3 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
its other moves aren't exactly weak either
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 238-281 (60.4 - 71.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (you can abuse unaware this time, quag ignores your attack drops)
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 168-199 (50.2 - 59.5%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (forced to roost)
Its checks come down to bulky psychics and mega sableye. The former still have to be wary of knock off (even thunderpunch is viable just for slowbro) but i can admit the latter will be hard checks. Poison types like venu get annoying too.
And we obviously shouldn't forget the mach punch it has; it's fairly powerful priority.
Basically, conk is a much better fairy lure than the other shit that's available. And getting rid of fairies+checking darks gives it some consideration on a team. Which is honestly the reason I think it should stay where it is.
zappy
Man defensive flying types sure to get tons of hate huh D:
well i think we all know that it's a decent answer to azu, gyara, torn, lando-t, garchomp, along with many others. We also know that its one of the few defoggers that can stand up to bish (although that era has long passed). But in general, in a meta thats becoming more and more favorable to offense, and in return, more favorable to anti-offense pokemon, a lot of which are electric and flying, a good check to these pokemon become demanding.
That's why hippowdon is so popular. A bulky ground that checks both electric and flying is valuable. And zapdos does the same, just gets a lot of shit for sr weakness. Of course, that is one of its biggest issues, but it's really not as bad as people think if you don't rely on it to get rid of hazards, which i'm sure most here haven't tried.
More importantly there's one really cool niche that only zapdos has.
A popular strategy or way of teambuilding in this meta is passing stats to fast pokemon. The most well-known users of this strategy are nasty pass celebi, nasty pass togekiss, and sd (or even agility) pass gliscor. This is a pretty fresh way to overwhelm slower builds, because pokemon that were once quite easy to handle with some pink blob like mega manectric suddenly become very threatening. Even phazing or taunting doesn't gaurantee stopping this strategy because the passer itself still retains the boosts, and they can still be threatening without passing (ESPECIALLY TOGEKISS). Zapdos is quite unique because it can roar these out without being scared. Gliscor, celebi, and togekiss can't touch zapdos and when they pass the recipient will be roared out. Zapdos especially is unique because no other phazer can stand up to +2 togekiss.
So zappy has a quite cool role of being able to single-handedly neuter stat-passing teams. That alone is certainly worth its placement, along with all the other stuff it can do half-assedly.
well i think we all know that it's a decent answer to azu, gyara, torn, lando-t, garchomp, along with many others. We also know that its one of the few defoggers that can stand up to bish (although that era has long passed). But in general, in a meta thats becoming more and more favorable to offense, and in return, more favorable to anti-offense pokemon, a lot of which are electric and flying, a good check to these pokemon become demanding.
That's why hippowdon is so popular. A bulky ground that checks both electric and flying is valuable. And zapdos does the same, just gets a lot of shit for sr weakness. Of course, that is one of its biggest issues, but it's really not as bad as people think if you don't rely on it to get rid of hazards, which i'm sure most here haven't tried.
More importantly there's one really cool niche that only zapdos has.
A popular strategy or way of teambuilding in this meta is passing stats to fast pokemon. The most well-known users of this strategy are nasty pass celebi, nasty pass togekiss, and sd (or even agility) pass gliscor. This is a pretty fresh way to overwhelm slower builds, because pokemon that were once quite easy to handle with some pink blob like mega manectric suddenly become very threatening. Even phazing or taunting doesn't gaurantee stopping this strategy because the passer itself still retains the boosts, and they can still be threatening without passing (ESPECIALLY TOGEKISS). Zapdos is quite unique because it can roar these out without being scared. Gliscor, celebi, and togekiss can't touch zapdos and when they pass the recipient will be roared out. Zapdos especially is unique because no other phazer can stand up to +2 togekiss.
So zappy has a quite cool role of being able to single-handedly neuter stat-passing teams. That alone is certainly worth its placement, along with all the other stuff it can do half-assedly.
sylveon
Well i want to say first that sylveon should really only be judged based on specs set, its outclassed for the most part everywhere else.
First off, what makes it different from other specs users (of which there aren't many good ones to start with) is its baton pass.
Hyper voice of course is accurate and powerful and overall consistent, but baton pass makes it a decent choice for volturn-y teams. Instead of relying on shitty hidden powers, it can instead just pass into a teammate that can handle steels/fires/chansey.
More importantly, if you plan on creating a volturnish team with magnezone, sylveon starts to reach its full potential. It obviously requires support, that's why its so low in the first place, but once steels are gone its usually good to just switch-in and click the magic move.
That being said, i wouldn't be opposed to sylveon dropping. Its use is very specific and even against bulky teams with the right support its not gauranteed to pull through, chansey and talon will stlil be annoying. We all know that its slow and pretty frail, but we should remember that its bulky enough to take one big hit. And that's all that should really be expected of a wallbreaker.
First off, what makes it different from other specs users (of which there aren't many good ones to start with) is its baton pass.
Hyper voice of course is accurate and powerful and overall consistent, but baton pass makes it a decent choice for volturn-y teams. Instead of relying on shitty hidden powers, it can instead just pass into a teammate that can handle steels/fires/chansey.
More importantly, if you plan on creating a volturnish team with magnezone, sylveon starts to reach its full potential. It obviously requires support, that's why its so low in the first place, but once steels are gone its usually good to just switch-in and click the magic move.
That being said, i wouldn't be opposed to sylveon dropping. Its use is very specific and even against bulky teams with the right support its not gauranteed to pull through, chansey and talon will stlil be annoying. We all know that its slow and pretty frail, but we should remember that its bulky enough to take one big hit. And that's all that should really be expected of a wallbreaker.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
ok people are shitting on sylv's cleric set but I have used this over Clef multiple times on balance/stall so I will defend it.
160+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%)
252 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 109-130 (27.6 - 32.9%)
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 156-184 (48.2 - 56.9%)
(got rid of soundproof, I'm just comparing it to clef so the actual calc is irrelevant, just compare the two sets)
160+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%)
252 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 112-133 (34.6 - 41.1%)
Wow, every sylveon calc is better.
"but you're an idiot clef gets great utility options in calm mind and heal bell"
wait sylv gets those
"but it also has fire coverage and magic guard"
ok i can agree with you there. I'm not saying Sylveon is as good, but if you want to run heal bell and not be complete setup bait, then sylveon is better because of its strength.
Of course, this is probably because the way I play stall is burn everything and win with special walls/calm mind sweeper, but 2 whole ranks below clefable is insanity. Clef is better because of magic guard, but on teams that don't need a safety net in a twave user, clef finds its way out and sylveon finds a use. The icing on the cake for me is Wish + Baton Pass. This strategy allows you to heal a friendly mon without having to bring it in. The utility in that i insane. To top it off, the specs set is better than this. So why do you want it to drop?
160+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Sylveon: 153-180 (38.8 - 45.6%)
252 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 36 SpD Sylveon: 109-130 (27.6 - 32.9%)
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 156-184 (48.2 - 56.9%)
(got rid of soundproof, I'm just comparing it to clef so the actual calc is irrelevant, just compare the two sets)
160+ Atk Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 160 Def Clefable: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%)
252 SpA Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 127-151 (32.2 - 38.3%)
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 8 HP / 4 SpD Abomasnow: 112-133 (34.6 - 41.1%)
Wow, every sylveon calc is better.
"but you're an idiot clef gets great utility options in calm mind and heal bell"
wait sylv gets those
"but it also has fire coverage and magic guard"
ok i can agree with you there. I'm not saying Sylveon is as good, but if you want to run heal bell and not be complete setup bait, then sylveon is better because of its strength.
Of course, this is probably because the way I play stall is burn everything and win with special walls/calm mind sweeper, but 2 whole ranks below clefable is insanity. Clef is better because of magic guard, but on teams that don't need a safety net in a twave user, clef finds its way out and sylveon finds a use. The icing on the cake for me is Wish + Baton Pass. This strategy allows you to heal a friendly mon without having to bring it in. The utility in that i insane. To top it off, the specs set is better than this. So why do you want it to drop?
Set up bait? In the face of unaware Clefable? I'm sorry, but Sylveon has nothing going for it outside of its specs set. Clef just does everything Sylveon wants to do and more. Sure, Hyper Voice hits moderately stronger, but that's really about it, in just about every other aspect Clef outperforms it. When considering a fairy, Clef is always the go to 'mon, and Sylveon pales in comparison. I support the drop honestly.
And on that note, I'll likely be editing this post to express my feelings on conk.
And on that note, I'll likely be editing this post to express my feelings on conk.
All you really said about Sylveon's advantages over Clefable as a cleric was not being complete setup bait and being able to do Wish + Baton Pass. The first point is just false, because when have you ever seen Unaware Clefable become setup bait? I'm pretty sure Unaware Clefable is the clerical set, not Magic Guard, and as an added bonus or two Clefable has other utility tools such as Flamethrower, Thunder Wave, Soft-Boiled, Knock Off, and Stealth Rock, which are really important in the long run. Wish + Baton Pass is definitely an advantage though, but in my opinion not really justifiable for B-. Cleric Sylveon just isn't really good in this metagame when I'd rather use Clefable in pretty much all scenarios.
Can we move on from comparing sylveon and clefable. Honestly I don't even know why people are comparing then when they preform didn't function. Yes sylveon defensive set is outclassed by clefable but that's not the main reason to use Sylveon. Sylveon main niche is a wall breaker with spec hyper voice and a lure with its coverage moves. Compare to clefable which is a wall/calm mind sweeper/t-wave spammer/broken mon/ If you think sylveon should drop to c rank then that's fine but the reason should be because you don't think the specs set is good enough. Not because the defense set is outclassed by clefable. I'll guess should gave my opinion of sylveon rank so this isn't just a rant. I think sylveon should stay where it is. It's viability is on par with the other pokemon in B-(expect bronzong that thing needs to drop)
Defensively this thing is just outclassed by Clefable/Defensive Alt and has the same shortcomings as Umbreon/Milotic in being totally outclassed as a defensive mon. Even the specs set has competition from other fairy's like azu, garde and alt. Compared to Azu this thing fares worse against Offence and doesn't have access to the same instant power that BD sets have against stall. Garde is just a mega version of this with access to support moves like taunt and will-o and doesn't have to resort to Hidden power since it has access to FB. Alt has significantly less immediate power but it has more unpredictability and access to better coverage/reliable recovery and better typing.
Haven't had much experience using his in ORAS but it has good typing to switch into a lot of pokemon like Bish and Weav that are massive threats to lots of teams. His AV set is definitely not as strong as it once was but his Sheer Force set is stronger than most people give it credit for because more often than not offence has no answers besides pivoting around with Chomp/Lando and hoping to slowly wear it down. Still not a top tier threat but it has justifiable niches that keep it where it is.
Please raise bludz to A Rank at very least:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-262677474
Okay so before you start calling me a god of mindgamz with amazing skillz, i was kind of helped by WEEDLol who's so broken my opponent got rekt by Weed & muh skillz and decided to give up cauz i was too strong & Weedz is broken.
Sylveon to C/C+: Honestly,Sylveon is predictable as hell & is often forced into 50/50 considering almost every teamever has a steel type or at the very least a fairy resistance in their team, it struggles to get in unless something died before,when Sylveon finds an opening in a weakened team through, it might hurt quite a bit & you may lose a mon, which is kind of nice & the reason why it doesn't go to D Rank or some shit, but still, i find it to be meh at best, considering the best it can do vs most teams is get one kill, which is just... bleh.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-262677474
Okay so before you start calling me a god of mindgamz with amazing skillz, i was kind of helped by WEEDLol who's so broken my opponent got rekt by Weed & muh skillz and decided to give up cauz i was too strong & Weedz is broken.
Sylveon to C/C+: Honestly,Sylveon is predictable as hell & is often forced into 50/50 considering almost every teamever has a steel type or at the very least a fairy resistance in their team, it struggles to get in unless something died before,when Sylveon finds an opening in a weakened team through, it might hurt quite a bit & you may lose a mon, which is kind of nice & the reason why it doesn't go to D Rank or some shit, but still, i find it to be meh at best, considering the best it can do vs most teams is get one kill, which is just... bleh.
Honestly people shouldnt be comparing the cleric set as its widely well known its outclassed by Clefable in that regard.
The set that Sylveon runs and is B- for to begin with is the Specs Set as it min 2HKO's 90% of the entire tier. It's movepool is fairly sparse and is heavily reliant on prediction however this can be said for most choice item users. The only real problems it has is the blobs along with heatran/ferro depending on which HP you run. Outside of that, as long as you predict correctly your going to chunk the crap out of whoever switches in. Specs Sylv can also function as a decent special wall being able to take a few hits and outduel most Special attackers. Sylveon should remain in B-.
1v1 comparison
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 149-177 (38 - 45.1%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 337-397 (112.7 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 244-288 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 280-330 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 252-297 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 337-397 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sylveon vs Tanks
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 250-295 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 220-259 (54.8 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 327-385 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 355-418 (100.8 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 247-292 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 337-397 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 186-219 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 324-384 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 280-332 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
The set that Sylveon runs and is B- for to begin with is the Specs Set as it min 2HKO's 90% of the entire tier. It's movepool is fairly sparse and is heavily reliant on prediction however this can be said for most choice item users. The only real problems it has is the blobs along with heatran/ferro depending on which HP you run. Outside of that, as long as you predict correctly your going to chunk the crap out of whoever switches in. Specs Sylv can also function as a decent special wall being able to take a few hits and outduel most Special attackers. Sylveon should remain in B-.
1v1 comparison
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 149-177 (38 - 45.1%) -- 9.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 337-397 (112.7 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 244-288 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 280-330 (77.5 - 91.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 252-297 (64.2 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 337-397 (105.6 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Sylveon vs Tanks
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 250-295 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 220-259 (54.8 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 327-385 (82.9 - 97.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 355-418 (100.8 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 247-292 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 337-397 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 186-219 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 324-384 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 280-332 (72.7 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
Hoopa C should move down to unranked tbh
As an offensive mon why would you not use Unbound? Scarf Hoopa C gets killed by shadow sneak, outsped by faster stuff, doesn't have hyperspace fury or Hoopa Unbound's great offensive stats or even Knock Off STAB. Sure Ghost/Fighting has great coverage but Dark/Fighting/Poison is better, and Hoopa Unbound's STAB on dark is really good ATM. 70 speed is absolute garbage too, at least 80 is usable. TR Hoopa C is the only thing that Unbound isn't better than, but Diancie is because it beats Altaria and Sableye. This thing isn't bad as much as it is totally outclassed by other stuff
As an offensive mon why would you not use Unbound? Scarf Hoopa C gets killed by shadow sneak, outsped by faster stuff, doesn't have hyperspace fury or Hoopa Unbound's great offensive stats or even Knock Off STAB. Sure Ghost/Fighting has great coverage but Dark/Fighting/Poison is better, and Hoopa Unbound's STAB on dark is really good ATM. 70 speed is absolute garbage too, at least 80 is usable. TR Hoopa C is the only thing that Unbound isn't better than, but Diancie is because it beats Altaria and Sableye. This thing isn't bad as much as it is totally outclassed by other stuff
Totally outclassed is an overstatement by far. It's not really fair to compare it to Hoopa-Unbound other than how you can't use both at once, as the two are quite different. Unbound is undoubtedly the better 'mon. Also, what's Diancie's niche on TR other than a lead? If it's not a TR sweeper then I don't really see it as fair to compare the two on TR. Furthermore, getting killed by Shadow Sneak isn't really all that relevant considering that there are very few viable users left in the tier, about none of which use it as their first choice. Getting completely and utterly murdered by Pursuit is far more relvant, and is a better argument for it to be moved down. I wouldn't be opposed to a drop but being unranked is a quite harsh as of now.
you mean running 3 offensive moves gives you better coverage than running 2? who'd have thought!
Honestly, STAB Shadow Ball from base 150 Attack is probably reason enough for Hoopa-C to be ranked at least C+, it's a much more spammable move than anything Hoopa-U has due to its fantastic neutral coverage, and makes it a lot easier for it to fit Nasty Plot or Sub or even both. The OU metagame is just not prepared for Ghost moves at all, the only other offensive Ghost being Gengar, and being prepared for it doesn't necessarily mean being prepared for Hoopa given that the latter hits harder, has access to a boosting move to overwhelm slower Pokemon, and can bypass AV users with Psyshock. Just to give you an idea :
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 156-185 (44.3 - 52.5%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 242-285 (75.3 - 88.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 133-156 (41.4 - 48.5%) -- 71.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 230-270 (69.2 - 81.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 148-175 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
As for competition with Hoopa-U, as I said, Shadow Ball's ability to hit Fighting and Fairy types neutrally makes it harder for offensive threats to switch into Hoopa (or rather, whichever move Hoopa decides to go for), and easier for the Hoopa user to play around them. Hoopa-U just can't click any of its STABs as freely as Hoopa-C, and that's a huge advantage over it, and enough reason to be used over it on a few teams.
I'm not opposed to it dropping to C+ since Hoopa-U is undoubtedly better 90% of the time, but it's defneitely viable and should remain ranked (and I'd argue that C rank is an absolute minimum for it)
Last edited:
Honestly? You just made my point for me. Why not use Gengar instead? Hoopa-C is brutally outclassed. You pointed to barely nabbing the 2HKO on Gliscor and not achieving it on Torn as a flaw as if icy wind wasn't a viable coverage option anyway. Plus Gengar gets STAB sludge wave, has better bulky sets with sub disable and even has will o wisp to hamper physical attackers. As for psyshock damage, Unbound still hits much harder and doesn't needed shadow ball for fairies because gunk shot. Hoopa Confined has a niche over others in the tier no ones really shown it yet, as such I feel it should be unranked.
70 isn't as bad as you say because in practice you still able to outspeed most spreads by defensive mons like MVenus, only notable ones that now are able to speed creep you more easily is variants of Heatran and Skarmory while generally outsped by Gliscor. Aside that its still a usable speed tier for its job of wall breaking since it outspeeds the relevant walls. Power wise it can at best be at par with neutral fully invested Hoopa-U if it runs modest, which still gives it enough speed to creep MVenus variants etc, while hitting with the same output on the special side -- it isn't that weak. It is more or less a very good wall breaker since it has immediate power and boosting move in NP to tear apart defensive cores. The issue, however, it that it is clearly redundant to what Hoopa-U already offers, since it can run the same set but with higher stats in speed and can opt to go full physical or mixed. Damage output wise they're more or less at par since Hoopa-U doesn't tend to run +SpA natures, since the speed is needed to outrun Jolly base 70s, whereas Hoopa-C can and preferably will run +SpA nature.
Bear in mind the rankings also take into account other factors than simply opportunity costs, this also includes the more numerical side of things of which Hoopa-C isn't anymore a slouch than MLatios is (both strong opportunity costs but objectively speaking they're still a notch above unranked mons as you try to suggest in both stats and roles). If you're only limiting it to opportunity cost or redundancy then yes it would deserve to be unranked but the viability list like I said considers other factors, which is the saving grace.
It is really not in the rank of garbage mons as it can still function optimally as a wall breaker, which more or less necessitates the same support as Hoopa-U, leagues above those even struggling to find a niche.
Last edited:
Mega Absol was brought up to move up to C+, but I'd actually prefer to see it drop down further, seeing as it hasn't been discussed in quite some time. I don't feel as though there's actually any point of using this thing anymore. Weavile is clearly the #1 speedy Dark type in the tier, pulling off both Swords Dance and AOA sets far more effectively thanks to its additional power, higher Speed, and STAB Ice moves. Absol has a stronger Sucker Punch, but if you're looking at the priority side of things, you also need to justify using it over Bisharp, who blows it out of the water in terms of power. Absol loses to a number of top tier threats that Weavile and Bisharp can easily deal with, while the only good matchups it has are against Mega Scizor (if running Fire Blast) and Thundurus. Additionally, Absol doesn't fit into teams nearly as well as the other two do. Unlike Bisharp, Absol has nearly zero defensive synergy, and unlike Weavile, Absol actually takes a good deal of work to use effectively, since it needs quite a few prominent mons out of the way in order to perform. Basically, Absol doesn't end up on teams because it fits the team's needs, it ends up there because you wanted to use Absol. I don't see this thing being in the same rank as stuff like Entei, Heracross, Rotom-H, or above things like Nidos or Mienshao, who have solid niches and have their place on specific teams. Absol doesn't have that, so ranking it higher than them doesn't sit well with me.
Mega Glalie from unlisted -> at least D.
- Mega Glalie is criminally underrated imo. It is by no means easy to use. However, with he right team support, it can wreak a lot of havoc.
My favorite set is:
Glalie-Mega @Glalieite
Lonely: 252 atk/4 sp atk/252 speed (or just enough to outspeed something specific and dump the rest into sp atk)
-Double-Edge
-Earthquake
-Freeze Dry
-Ice shard/Explosion.
Lonely Double-Edge hits RIDICULOUSLY hard, 2hkoing the likes of ferrothorn and skarmory after stealth rocks. Balance, stall, and semi-stall teams typically do not pack switch ins for mega glalie. As for mons like rotom-w and suicune, Freeze Dry deals major damage, KOing rotom-W after rocks and a double edge. I will provide more adequate calcs later when I'm on my phone.
-Eq is for Tran and any other steel type that may resist double edge, and Ice Shard is fantastic against a lot of offensive Pokemon like Garchomp Landorus Lati@s serperior Thundurus and more. Explosion is another good option though, is it is almost gaurunteed to knock something out if you are able to get one off. Refrigerate explosion in and of itself is enough to earn Mega Glalie a spot on the OU Viability Rankings
-Pair Mega Glalie up with mons that can handle offensive teams, as well as hazard removal, and it should put in a lot of work.
- Mega Glalie is criminally underrated imo. It is by no means easy to use. However, with he right team support, it can wreak a lot of havoc.
My favorite set is:
Glalie-Mega @Glalieite
Lonely: 252 atk/4 sp atk/252 speed (or just enough to outspeed something specific and dump the rest into sp atk)
-Double-Edge
-Earthquake
-Freeze Dry
-Ice shard/Explosion.
Lonely Double-Edge hits RIDICULOUSLY hard, 2hkoing the likes of ferrothorn and skarmory after stealth rocks. Balance, stall, and semi-stall teams typically do not pack switch ins for mega glalie. As for mons like rotom-w and suicune, Freeze Dry deals major damage, KOing rotom-W after rocks and a double edge. I will provide more adequate calcs later when I'm on my phone.
-Eq is for Tran and any other steel type that may resist double edge, and Ice Shard is fantastic against a lot of offensive Pokemon like Garchomp Landorus Lati@s serperior Thundurus and more. Explosion is another good option though, is it is almost gaurunteed to knock something out if you are able to get one off. Refrigerate explosion in and of itself is enough to earn Mega Glalie a spot on the OU Viability Rankings
-Pair Mega Glalie up with mons that can handle offensive teams, as well as hazard removal, and it should put in a lot of work.
Last edited:
- Status