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Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]
- Thread starter The Immortal
- Start date
I've been using this:
Shuckle @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
Level: 98
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spore
- Perish Song
- King's Shield
- Recover
Priority Spore means you don't actually have to take a hit, so I prefer this to Mold Breaker. Recovery is also nice, and King's Shield is preferred over Spiky since I don't care as much if they status me once I have Perish Song set up, whereas the attack drops are invaluable.
Shuckle @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Prankster
Level: 98
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spore
- Perish Song
- King's Shield
- Recover
Priority Spore means you don't actually have to take a hit, so I prefer this to Mold Breaker. Recovery is also nice, and King's Shield is preferred over Spiky since I don't care as much if they status me once I have Perish Song set up, whereas the attack drops are invaluable.
dusk raimon
Banned deucer.
Is that the set I used my epic speed tie winning skills to beat? God perish song needs a ban, makes HO more viable If it's banned, even my specs Ray can't ohko that madafaka, with aerilate Boomburst.
Teams as in plural? I mean, I can understand this when it was the old 1v1, but with the current setup it's mostly a rock-paper-scissors matchup that, when drawn correctly, you should always be able to win with an optimal trio and a good RPS. I peaked #1 with 4 Pokemon that I rotated.
Regarding the Choice Trick debate I saw earlier (I don't come here often lol), I feel like this is mostly a complaint as this honestly isn't hard to play against unless all of your Pokemon are all similar (and hence all lose to it), which is just poor teambuilding.
Ok, so hackmons 1v1 has been out for a day now, and I feel prepared to give my thoughts on the tier as far as banning broken strats go.
Mewtwo - this thing is one of the most versatile mons in the game that can out power and out fool others. Mewtwo X can deal out massive damage then KO with e speed thanks to a sash. also mewtwo y can prankster spore then set up tail glows and sweep. Also mewtwo can appear as mewtwo X then mega evolve into Y and wreak havoc. As i mentioned before sash mewtwo is a pretty unbeatable force with a focus sash. (I know it isn't a true unbeatable force, so no troll comment with a set that beats mewtwo pls)
Chansey - this thing is awful to play against. The only way my team can beat this monster is to win a speed tie and imprison with giratina, so at best one of the best mons in the tier gets a 50/50 with it. The only sure fire way to beat this is the normalize gengar set. Also on this I could see chansey being banned just to be replaced, so imposter is probably what needs banning.
Mega Rayquaza - the mon that got banned from the ubers tier probably deserves another accolade- a ban from hackmons 1v1. the fake out/e speed/boom burst/water move is a set that wreaks havoc on the meta. (I do actually run this mega ray, so Personally I would like to see this beast stay).
Mega Gengar - the normalize set beats almost anything except prankster, faster mons, and fake out/e speed mons with -ate abilities. Personally I don't mind this set, but it has the potential to limit the meta game, so I'm pro banning it.
Focus Sash - this item is banned from regular 1v1, and deserves a ban here with every single mon having access to super powerful moves that deal big damage then e speed for the KO.
Sleep - sleep moves are a big concern for a lot of people, but personally I'm not that against it. So, with personal opinion involved I vote for the ban of spore, but the allowance of dark void to remain in the tier.
Perish Song - this was a plague in regular 1v1, but to my surprise it hasn't been super viable with all the truly powerful mons. The only one I've seen have consistent success would be shuckle. I'm truly only adding this, because I know a lot of people wouldn't be happy with it off the list.
Conclusion - With the tier being hackmons I definitely don't want to go on a banning spree, but right now I personally feel that the meta is restricting creativity and needs some help. I truly don't want all the things listed banned, but a few would definitely help. Even though the tier is new I've laddered a lot, and I've had decent success (I'm currently number 1 on the ladder under the account viability rules- proof will be at end). I almost forgot, but shedinja should be looked into since it cripples the meta game with its sturdy 1 hp. I know other strategies deserve a place on the list, but this is everything I could think of. Feel free to discuss anything in the post; like I said it all shouldn't be banned, but some stuff definitely needs to go.
Mewtwo - this thing is one of the most versatile mons in the game that can out power and out fool others. Mewtwo X can deal out massive damage then KO with e speed thanks to a sash. also mewtwo y can prankster spore then set up tail glows and sweep. Also mewtwo can appear as mewtwo X then mega evolve into Y and wreak havoc. As i mentioned before sash mewtwo is a pretty unbeatable force with a focus sash. (I know it isn't a true unbeatable force, so no troll comment with a set that beats mewtwo pls)
Chansey - this thing is awful to play against. The only way my team can beat this monster is to win a speed tie and imprison with giratina, so at best one of the best mons in the tier gets a 50/50 with it. The only sure fire way to beat this is the normalize gengar set. Also on this I could see chansey being banned just to be replaced, so imposter is probably what needs banning.
Mega Rayquaza - the mon that got banned from the ubers tier probably deserves another accolade- a ban from hackmons 1v1. the fake out/e speed/boom burst/water move is a set that wreaks havoc on the meta. (I do actually run this mega ray, so Personally I would like to see this beast stay).
Mega Gengar - the normalize set beats almost anything except prankster, faster mons, and fake out/e speed mons with -ate abilities. Personally I don't mind this set, but it has the potential to limit the meta game, so I'm pro banning it.
Focus Sash - this item is banned from regular 1v1, and deserves a ban here with every single mon having access to super powerful moves that deal big damage then e speed for the KO.
Sleep - sleep moves are a big concern for a lot of people, but personally I'm not that against it. So, with personal opinion involved I vote for the ban of spore, but the allowance of dark void to remain in the tier.
Perish Song - this was a plague in regular 1v1, but to my surprise it hasn't been super viable with all the truly powerful mons. The only one I've seen have consistent success would be shuckle. I'm truly only adding this, because I know a lot of people wouldn't be happy with it off the list.
Conclusion - With the tier being hackmons I definitely don't want to go on a banning spree, but right now I personally feel that the meta is restricting creativity and needs some help. I truly don't want all the things listed banned, but a few would definitely help. Even though the tier is new I've laddered a lot, and I've had decent success (I'm currently number 1 on the ladder under the account viability rules- proof will be at end). I almost forgot, but shedinja should be looked into since it cripples the meta game with its sturdy 1 hp. I know other strategies deserve a place on the list, but this is everything I could think of. Feel free to discuss anything in the post; like I said it all shouldn't be banned, but some stuff definitely needs to go.
Rumplestiltskin
I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Just wanted to give some quick input about Chansey / Imposter.
You are forgetting the aspect of that Imposter only gives 5pp of each move to the poke. This means that there are many ways to pp stall the Imposter if your poke doesn't lose to its own moves. As such, it means that normalize gengar is not the only sure fire way to beat Imposter with.
That's true, and the only reason I mentioned gengar is because chansey can't even damage gengar, so it's truly a sure fire win. Other sets can stall out chansey, but in a tier dominated by offense and PS; I personally haven't seen a lot of people able to stall out 20 turns of PP. I know what I'm running could be different from you, but I just feel that it deserves a ban because it definitely restricts the meta game.
I agree with some of the points you said. I'll try to respond to everything.
Mewtwo: I don't think this is broken. Depending on the set, many things are capable of reliably beating this. An example set is Fur Coat Giratina with Metal Burst, a set I found is very effective in the current meta. Another one is a Sashed Huge Power Aerodactyl-Mega, which I have been running with great success. It can OHKO with Dragon Ascent and there are only a few Mewtwos that are capable of threatening it (sash + priority [loses to priority dactyl], spore + king's shield [50/50]). There are many other ways of beating this, although it is very good. Random Sash mons are very effective often, though losing if they can't OHKO or the Mewtwo has multihit moves
Chansey: Chansey is not broken in this meta. You define exactly what it runs. As Rumple said, you can run things that can PP stall, or simply things that have an item that allows it to beat Chansey. An example of this is Gengar-Mega with Judgment and Secret Sword (but that's just one example, and there are many more that are viable). Another possible thing is running a Rocky Helmet on a Parental Bond pokemon with very few powerful attacks, and have them all be contact. Sashes are also a good way of beating Chansey (have a move strong enough to KO chansey Here's a neat gimmick set that I haven't tried but could be very effective (and is Imposter proof):
Rayquaza-Mega @ Sky Plate
Ability: Aerilate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Precipice Blades
- Quick Guard
This fits into the category of PP stalling, but you can use Quick Guard until Chansey runs out of moves and struggles to death. In addition, it is Aerilate Ray, so it's probably quite effective by itself. Fake Out allows it to break sashes and get free damage in, and Espeed lets it finish things off, but Precipice can be used for coverage.
Mega Rayquaza: One of the reasons Mega Ray is so good in BH is because it kills things on the switchin. There are very few things that can consistently switch into Mega Ray in BH because of its power to 2hko everything. However, it has plenty of counters in 1v1 because things that it doesn't ohko basically beat it. Again, Fur Coat Metal Burst Giratina, to name one example. Another is Pixilate Diancie Mega, which can survive a Fake Speed and use ESpeed to get a KO on ray. Another is random sash mons with a protecting move (I use Groudon-Primal and Aerodactyl Mega)
Mega Gengar: Mega Gengar is annoyingly good, and I personally want it banned, but that's just because I have trouble fitting in counters to it. I'm not sure if it's really broken so I'll withhold judgment.
Focus Sash: I think that this actually helps balance out the offense. There are so many strong, fast attackers in Hackmons (especially with Huge Power), and Focus Sash makes it so there's a bit more strategy than just "fastest mon that has strong attacks wins automatically". I don't think that something being banned in 1v1 is a good reason to ban it in Hackmons 1v1 considering how different the two metas are and how TI wanted to start fresh with the bans here.
Sleep: I know I'm the one who told you to mention this in your post but I'm not really sure about it anymore. Again, it beats my playstyle (like M-Gar) but I'm not sure if it's actually broken or just very good. Withholding judgment here.
Perish Song: I think that this move is much more broken here than in regular 1v1. It's impossible to tell if a mon is perish at team preview, unlike regular 1v1, so it's much harder to decide when to use a Perish Song counter. Additionally, bulky Pokemon like Giratina and Shuckle can run moves that ensure that if the opponent does not OHKO them, they lose. For example, the annoying omnipresent Giratina set I've seen so much has Prankster Perish Song (possibly with a sleep move), a sitrus berry so when they survive they can make a sub with priority, protect, and then perish song happens. It's impossible to beat these without running an offense member capable of OHKOing gira, which is where Focus Sashes come in very handy. I think most players agree with the idea of banning PSong.
Just as a side note, I don't think that proof of being high on the ladder is necessary to make arguments. I treat most opinions the same, not thinking too much about who stated them. I'd love to be proven wrong on any one of my points by someone at any stage in the ladder.
Honestly, I think that this meta is very creative and lots of niche sets can prove to be very good. I don't want to spoil anyone else's sets by posting them here but I've seen many really creative sets that beat me reliably.
Yeah just reached the top of Hackmons 1v1 Ladder! Here is my team.
Arceus @ Life Orb
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Extreme Speed
- Thousand Arrows
- Leech Seed
Blissey @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Perish Song
- Boomburst
- Earth Power
- Seismic Toss
Kyogre-Primal @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Water Spout
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Leech Seed
I discovered some interesting things that helped make my team become very good.
Parental Bond is a great way to check Focus Sash.
Run Leech Seed for Shedinja if a slot is open.
Choice Scarf Blissey is God in this metagame pretty much. It pretty much covers Imprision users and standard offense.
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dusk raimon
Banned deucer.
The tier is actually very stally, with most of the best sets being stall based, making it harder for offense to function, although I'm not saying offense is bad. It's just prankster imprison transform and perishsog. Are very hard to beat.
Can you give an example of a common stall-based set? The most frequently seen things don't really fall into that playstyle, or any playstyle we're used to in singles metagames. For instance, how would you categorize Perish Song (anti-stall?), Imprison + Transform, Skill Swap/Entrainment Normalize, and the other strategies that are more or less unique to this metagame?
tbh sash is easy to play around if you have fakespeed or parental bond. Its a good item an all but not ban worthy IMO.
Parental Bond does beat Sash, at least Sash on frail Pokemon, but Fake Out + Extreme Speed is not really the most reliable counter, since any Sash Pokemon can run Spiky Shield to block Fake Out and force the foe to incur a little bit of damage, making for an easier KO. Someone started running Feint on their Kyurem-B to beat me the other day, which I suppose is a viable, if gimmicky, option.
Giratina @ Mental Herb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 126 Def / 126 SpD
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Imprison
- Transform
- Will-O-Wisp
this is one example of the transform+imprison(we really need a shorter name for this) sets I've seen, Giratina isn't the only Pokemon that runs this set well, you can never tell if a poke has this set at all, and if you didn't select a counter for it, you've lost, and even with a normalize Gengar set, they could still win, wisp them, then wait for them to die, this makes running a counter almost required. you don't need to ban the moves entirely, just not allow Pokemon to transform while under an imprisoned status, or use imprison while under a transformed status. this will also allow people to counter impostor Chansey more easily, since it would no longer be able to use the opponents imprison.
this is just one of several things that could be done, but one thing is clear, this set must be banned, one way or the other.
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 126 Def / 126 SpD
Impish Nature
- Taunt
- Imprison
- Transform
- Will-O-Wisp
this is one example of the transform+imprison(we really need a shorter name for this) sets I've seen, Giratina isn't the only Pokemon that runs this set well, you can never tell if a poke has this set at all, and if you didn't select a counter for it, you've lost, and even with a normalize Gengar set, they could still win, wisp them, then wait for them to die, this makes running a counter almost required. you don't need to ban the moves entirely, just not allow Pokemon to transform while under an imprisoned status, or use imprison while under a transformed status. this will also allow people to counter impostor Chansey more easily, since it would no longer be able to use the opponents imprison.
this is just one of several things that could be done, but one thing is clear, this set must be banned, one way or the other.
Hackmons 1v1 update: I've added Endless Battle Clause and banned Heal Pulse. It should be obvious why.
I have pretty much been competing with Dr. Phd. BJ for the top spot on the ladder. We have pretty much have gone back and forth. We are over 100 above 3rd at the moment.
To reach my way to the to again I replaced Arceus with Mega Rayquaza but did the exact same set that I used before I switched but with Aerilate instead.
Mega Rayquaza is a great way to be priority that has no immunities unlike most other Pokemon.
I would recommend Parental Bond mostly on Special Attackers since they can not take advantage of Pure Power and are not at all concerned of Spiky Shield.
The best way to defeat Imprison is to defeat it as quickly as possible. Or you could Imposter if your opponent's set is not Imposter proof. The thing about is Imprison is that it can be run on a wide variety of pokemon so your Imprison check will not always work on all pokemon. Like Mega Rayquaza has to wake up first to defeat Mega Aggron while it may plow through anything weak to Flying or is running low defense in exchange for Speed.
Honestly if I had to choose to suspect anything in the entire tier it would be all the Prankster spam. Many tactics such as Imprison and Spore are viable due to Prankster. These sets could be still used on Deoxys-S but it would be easier to wear down. It would be way easier on the meta if people are not being forced to run Safety Googles to protect themselves from these tactics. Also this ban is also not complex so it does not confuse users at all.
I know I got so high on ladder without using Prankster, Spore, or Imprison but it is still centralizing in Hackmons 1v1.
To reach my way to the to again I replaced Arceus with Mega Rayquaza but did the exact same set that I used before I switched but with Aerilate instead.
Mega Rayquaza is a great way to be priority that has no immunities unlike most other Pokemon.
I would recommend Parental Bond mostly on Special Attackers since they can not take advantage of Pure Power and are not at all concerned of Spiky Shield.
The best way to defeat Imprison is to defeat it as quickly as possible. Or you could Imposter if your opponent's set is not Imposter proof. The thing about is Imprison is that it can be run on a wide variety of pokemon so your Imprison check will not always work on all pokemon. Like Mega Rayquaza has to wake up first to defeat Mega Aggron while it may plow through anything weak to Flying or is running low defense in exchange for Speed.
Honestly if I had to choose to suspect anything in the entire tier it would be all the Prankster spam. Many tactics such as Imprison and Spore are viable due to Prankster. These sets could be still used on Deoxys-S but it would be easier to wear down. It would be way easier on the meta if people are not being forced to run Safety Googles to protect themselves from these tactics. Also this ban is also not complex so it does not confuse users at all.
I know I got so high on ladder without using Prankster, Spore, or Imprison but it is still centralizing in Hackmons 1v1.
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Not much of a h1v1 player myself, but I feel the basic and strongest is Huge Power/Parental Bond Groudon-Mega. Its sheer bulk and power really fit together!
dusk raimon
Banned deucer.
It's too slow, literally that's it's problem, there are stronger mons such as Ray and the mewtwos, it has to rely on Lum berries or speed boosting items so as not to get sleeped/ohkoed on outspeed. It is quite easily beatable due to everything being able to run water moves, and it isn't retaining the water immunity
On Kyogre I have created a set to completely counter fakespeed users, as the other members of my team had trouble beating them depending on coverage moves. I run fur coat specs ogre to bulk all their attacks, with its massive special defense, and now massive defense. It is ohkoed by none of the most common fake speeder attacks, and is able to ohko the most common (mewtwoX, diancie and Ray)
Here is the set:
Kyogre-Primal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Fur Coat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Steam Eruption
- Seed Flare
- Trick
I'm 5 elo behind U now bruh xD
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Imprison suspect for ban! Or even just make it incompatible with Transform Yes or no?
Here are some really big abusers of this.
Speedy Pranksters
Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore/Dark Void
- Spiky Shield/King's Shield
- Imprison
- Transform
Deoxys-Speed is one of the biggest abusers of Imprison because it's the fastest Pokemon and it can use its Prankster technique to use Spore or in some cases Dark Void. Most Pokemon don't wake up one or even two turns after, so Deoxys can freely use Imprison and Transform. Once it does that, the battle is over unless the opponent gets really lucky. In some cases, the opponent just forfeits not even knowing if struggle has enough power to win this.
Bulky Imprisoners
Lugia/Giratina/Arceus @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster/Magic Bounce/Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt/King's Shield/Spiky Shield
- Imprison
- Transform
- Dark Void/Spore
I'm putting these 3 Pokemon together because they are really bulky and hard to KO leaving them to a big advantage. These Pokemon are also very common abusers of Imprison because of that this. These Pokemon are basically almost unstoppable due to their bulk and abilities to use Imprison. Pranktser is for priority to go first in battle most of the time, and if that doesn't work, there's Lum Berry. Magic Bounce is for Pokemon that use Spore and Dark Void. They can bounce it back and use Imprison so the Pokemon can't use them. Soundproof is just in case the opponent has Lum Berry and decides to randomly use Perish Song which is another thing I will discuss in this post.
Magic Bounce Gengar
Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore/Dark Void
- Imprison
- Transform
- King's Shield/Spiky Shield
I'm keeping this one by itself because Gengar-Mega is something different in this situation. Magic Bounce Gengar plots an unexpected twist because the opponent would usually think it's Normalize, but wait, it's not! It's a sneaky Imprisoner used to counter the Pokemon that tend to use Spore and Dark Void, going straight for the Imprison.
Just plain random Imprison users
(Does not include Missingno)
Although most random Imprison users can be beaten by some of the other ones I put above on this list, random Imprison users still limits the opponent to have 0-2 turns to do something no matter what they try to do. Most of them will try to put your Pokemon to sleep or they would just use Imprison and Transform hoping that they wouldn't get KOed. Basically anything can randomly use Imprison and Transform, and it just limits the metagame to only a few Pokemon that may be able to stop it including other Imprison users.
Perish Song suspect for ban! Yes or No?
Perish Song to be honest, In my opinion it has less problems than Imprison, but still should be banned as to what a lot of its community folks say. Perish Song is a move that is basically the bane of 1v1's existence. It apparently is also a bane to Hackmons 1v1 as well. Although this can be countered by Soundproof (ex:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hackmons1v1-267308807), Soundproof is the only ability that can actively beat it and it is still a problem to the metagame as it also limits usage in the meta. It gives the Pokemon only 3 turns to do anything and along with that, they lose the battle if they are faster than the opponent.
Here are some big abusers of this. The biggest abusers are actually usually the same as the Imprison users in a way because they perform a sequence of stall as well to be able to win.
The bolded parenthesis below are for Trick Room Perish Song users!
Surprise! Deoxys-Speed is an abuser...
Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash/Lum Berry/Iron Ball
Ability: Prankster/Soundproof/Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD (252 Spe)
Sassy Nature (Timid Nature)
IVs: 0 Spe/(31 Spe)
- Spore/Dark Void
- Perish Song
- King's Shield/Spiky Shield/Substitute
- Curse/ (Trick Room) (Shell Smash if Contrary)
Ah yes, Deoxys-Speed, The very least Pokemon you would expect to run Perish Song and win. Perish Song Deoxys-Speed is tricky to go against. Trick Room Deoxys-Speed will hurt your chances of winning by an awful lot. The best way to beat this is to basically use Soundproof Pokemon with Safety Goggles like that Dialga in the replay link above.
Dialga @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Doom Desire
- Tail Glow
- Substitute
- Spacial Rend
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Doom Desire
- Tail Glow
- Substitute
- Spacial Rend
Bulky Perish Song users
Arceus/Lugia/Giratina @ Focus Sash/Lum Berry/Iron Ball/Toxic Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Prankster/Soundproof/Poison Heal/Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD (252 Spe)
Sassy Nature (Timid Nature)
IVs: 0 Spe/(31 Spe)
- Spore/Dark Void
- Perish Song
- King's Shield/Spiky Shield/Substitute
- Curse/(Trick Room) (Shell Smash if Contrary)
Bulky Perish Song users are commonly abused because they use their bulk as an advantage to win using Perish Song. These Perish Song users are usually extremely hard to KO as they also got King's Shield to lower the opponent's attack as well as having a likely chance of having a high Special Defense nature and max Special Defense EVs.
Really Slow Perish Song users
Shuckle/Marowak/Ferrothorn @ Focus Sash/Lum Berry/Iron Ball/Custap Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Prankster/Soundproof/Contrary/Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spore/Dark Void/Copycat
- Perish Song
- King's Shield/Spiky Shield/Substitute/Recover
- Curse/Dig/Dive/Trick Room (to override the opponent's Trick Room) (Shell Smash if Contrary)
Perish Song users that are really slow do not really need Trick Room. They are just Perish Song users that use Perish Song and stall their way through victory mostly by spamming Prankster Substitute or Custasp berry Dig/Dive with Prankster Copycat. There are other options though. These guys can also use Sturdy and the Custasp Dig and they can run Soundproof to surprise other Perish Song users and win. Contrary one other option because you can raise your Defense and Special Defense while lowering speed and like I said before, The slower Pokemon wins the battle. These guys are just the most common Perish Song users you would expect to be used. These Pokemon also have many options for moves that they can use because they provide many different strategies using these common slow Perish Song users.
I think I'm done here. Now discuss!
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dusk raimon
Banned deucer.
Don't ban psong Plz, my ace uses it, but being honest it is Rly broken with abilities and mvoes maximising the usage and ability of psongOk so, many people have been laddering, and I (not the only one) have been noticing the many Imprison users and how it limits the meta. To my personal opinion, I think there should be an Imprison suspect or at least should be banned. This is because any Pokemon can use Imprison and Transform and there are almost no ways of stopping them. What Imprisoners usually do is use Imprison and Transform, leaving usually 0-2 turns to actually do something to stop them. Some are fast Pranksters that use Spore/Dark Void and then use Imprison and Transform. Some just use a lot of bulk to take advantage by using Imprison and Transform, and others are just completely random Pokemon that use Imprison and Transform and all 3 kinds tear so many teams to shreds.
Imprison suspect for ban! Yes or no?
Here are some really big abusers of this.
Speedy Pranksters
Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore/Dark Void
- Spiky Shield/King's Shield
- Imprison
- Transform
Deoxys-Speed is one of the biggest abusers of Imprison because it's the fastest Pokemon and it can use its Prankster technique to use Spore or in some cases Dark Void. Most Pokemon don't wake up one or even two turns after, so Deoxys can freely use Imprison and Transform. Once it does that, the battle is over unless the opponent gets really lucky. In some cases, the opponent just forfeits not even knowing if struggle has enough power to win this.
Bulky Imprisoners
Lugia/Giratina/Arceus @ Lum Berry
Ability: Prankster/Magic Bounce/Soundproof
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt/King's Shield/Spiky Shield
- Imprison
- Transform
- Dark Void/Spore
I'm putting these 3 Pokemon together because they are really bulky and hard to KO leaving them to a big advantage. These Pokemon are also very common abusers of Imprison because of that this. These Pokemon are basically almost unstoppable due to their bulk and abilities to use Imprison. Pranktser is for priority to go first in battle most of the time, and if that doesn't work, there's Lum Berry. Magic Bounce is for Pokemon that use Spore and Dark Void. They can bounce it back and use Imprison so the Pokemon can't use them. Soundproof is just in case the opponent has Lum Berry and decides to randomly use Perish Song which is another thing I will discuss in this post.
Magic Bounce Gengar
Gengar-Mega @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spore/Dark Void
- Imprison
- Transform
- King's Shield/Spiky Shield
I'm keeping this one by itself because Gengar-Mega is something different in this situation. Magic Bounce Gengar plots an unexpected twist because the opponent would usually think it's Normalize, but wait, it's not! It's a sneaky Imprisoner used to counter the Pokemon that tend to use Spore and Dark Void, going straight for the Imprison.
Just plain random Imprison users.
(Does not include Missingno)
Although most random Imprison users can be beaten by some of the other ones I put above on this list, random Imprison users still limits the opponent to have 0-2 turns to do something no matter what they try to do. Most of them will try to put your Pokemon to sleep or they would just use Imprison and Transform hoping that they wouldn't get KOed. Basically anything can randomly use Imprison and Transform, and it just limits the metagame to only a few Pokemon that may be able to stop it including other Imprison users.
Now since, Imprison is out of the way in discussion on this post, let's move to Perish Song!
Perish Song suspect for ban! Yes or No?
Perish Song to be honest, In my opinion it has less problems than Imprison, but still should be banned as to what a lot of its community folks say. Perish Song is a move that is basically the bane of 1v1's existence. It apparently is also a bane to Hackmons 1v1 as well. Although this can be countered by Soundproof (ex: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/hackmons1v1-267308807), Soundproof is the only ability that can actively beat it and it is still a problem to the metagame as it also limits usage in the meta. It gives the Pokemon only 3 turns to do anything and along with that, they lose the battle if they are faster than the opponent.
Here are some big abusers of this. The biggest abusers are actually usually the same as the Imprison users in a way because they perform a sequence of stall as well to be able to win.
The bolded parenthesis below are for Trick Room Perish Song users!
Surprise! Deoxys-Speed is an abuser...
Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash/Lum Berry/Iron Ball
Ability: Prankster/Soundproof/Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD (252 Spe)
Sassy Nature (Timid Nature)
IVs: 0 Spe/(31 Spe)
- Spore/Dark Void
- Perish Song
- King's Shield/Spiky Shield/Substitute
- Curse/ (Trick Room) (Shell Smash if Contrary)
Ah yes, Deoxys-Speed, The very least Pokemon you would expect to run Perish Song and win. Perish Song Deoxys-Speed is tricky to go against. Trick Room Deoxys-Speed will hurt your chances of winning by an awful lot. The best way to beat this is to basically use Soundproof Pokemon with Safety Goggles like that Dialga in the replay link above.
Dialga @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
- Doom Desire
- Tail Glow
- Substitute
- Spacial Rend
Bulky Perish Song users.
Arceus/Lugia/Giratina @ Focus Sash/Lum Berry/Iron Ball/Toxic Orb/Leftovers
Ability: Prankster/Soundproof/Poison Heal/Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD (252 Spe)
Sassy Nature (Timid Nature)
IVs: 0 Spe/(31 Spe)
- Spore/Dark Void
- Perish Song
- King's Shield/Spiky Shield/Substitute
- Curse/(Trick Room) (Shell Smash if Contrary)
Bulky Perish Song users are commonly abused because they use their bulk as an advantage to win using Perish Song. These Perish Song users are usually extremely hard to KO as they also got King's Shield to lower the opponent's attack as well as having a likely chance of having a high Special Defense nature and max Special Defense EVs.
Really Slow Perish Song users
Shuckle/Marowak/Ferrothorn @ Focus Sash/Lum Berry/Iron Ball/Custap Berry/Leftovers
Ability: Prankster/Soundproof/Contrary/Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spore/Dark Void/Copycat
- Perish Song
- King's Shield/Spiky Shield/Substitute/Recover
- Curse/Dig/Dive/Trick Room (to override the opponent's Trick Room) (Shell Smash if Contrary)
Perish Song users that are really slow do not really need Trick Room. They are just Perish Song users that use Perish Song and stall their way through victory mostly by spamming Prankster Substitute or Custasp berry Dig/Dive with Prankster Copycat. There are other options though. These guys can also use Sturdy and the Custasp Dig and they can run Soundproof to surprise other Perish Song users and win. Contrary one other option because you can raise your Defense and Special Defense while lowering speed and like I said before, The slower Pokemon wins the battle. These guys are just the most common Perish Song users you would expect to be used. These Pokemon also have many options for moves that they can use because they provide many different strategies using these common slow Perish Song users.
I think I'm done here. Now discuss!
Imprison definitely needs the ban. The diversity of the sets they can possibly run, and the fact is Imposter can't beat it 100% of the time, it comes down to a speed tie, unless the Imprison user runs snatch + an attacking move, in which imposter loses 100% of the time. I am voting to Ban Imprison.
Perish Song is similar to imprison. The difference with perish song is that Soundproof hard walls most sets, and most users just lose to Pbond pdon (another thing i think should be suspected, seeing as it can ohko physically defensive arceus without running adamant, but thats me). Running soundproof on every team can get a bit annoying, and can result in a wasted slot. The other thing is, Taunt / Sleep don't auto stao these sets, since some run Magic Bounce, Safety Goggles, Lum Berry, Magic Coat, and Mental Herb. Another thing, is perish song is banned in 1v1, which is something to keep in mind. I am voting to Ban Perish Song.
Perish Song is similar to imprison. The difference with perish song is that Soundproof hard walls most sets, and most users just lose to Pbond pdon (another thing i think should be suspected, seeing as it can ohko physically defensive arceus without running adamant, but thats me). Running soundproof on every team can get a bit annoying, and can result in a wasted slot. The other thing is, Taunt / Sleep don't auto stao these sets, since some run Magic Bounce, Safety Goggles, Lum Berry, Magic Coat, and Mental Herb. Another thing, is perish song is banned in 1v1, which is something to keep in mind. I am voting to Ban Perish Song.
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Fake Melo
Banned deucer.
Literally everything about Imprisonment is broken. Its super limiting, restricts teambuilding, and even at that point doesn't stop it. Its diverse and the amount of Pokemon that can use it is insane. When you know its coming, you have to be very prepared and even at that point can still lose the game. I don't like the combo, but when laddering almost felt forced to use it due to the amount of games I lost to it, and the amount of failure I got trying to counter it. Not much more to say that everyone else hasn't. Laddering without it & without a counter(If you can even call it that) is almost impossible if you want to get far. Ban Imprisonment
Rumplestiltskin
I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Imprison by itself is not banworthy and can actually be used in creative ways and is fun to use. The problem is Imprison + Transform. I strongly disagree with just a straight up Imprison ban.
I agree about Perish Song being broken because there's no switching in 1v1, which would be the main counterplay to Perish Song.
I agree about Perish Song being broken because there's no switching in 1v1, which would be the main counterplay to Perish Song.
Fake Melo
Banned deucer.
I see nothing that could be viable with imprisonment + anything other than transform. Could you give an example? I see no reason to make a ban more complex than it needs to be, when imprisonment alone isn't much imo.
I see your point so I edited my post a bit.