Voting for ban perish song
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Ladder ORAS 1v1 [3v3 Team Preview]
- Thread starter The Immortal
- Start date
Hate to break it to you but the alt had to have PS in it ;~;
For fun, I decided to make a quick overview of super-effective-move-weakening berries in 1v1, since I'm personally a huge fan of them. If you're willing to sacrifice an item slot, you can lure in and kill threats that might appear to trouble your team otherwise. This guide is a work in progress! (Thanks to those in the OM room who helped with examples, mostly NickXVZ, Iv1 and aesf.)
Babiri Berry: Perhaps the single most useful one of these, the Babiri Berry is used primarily on Fairy-types to bolster their solid defensive typings by allowing them to check common Steel-types like Mega Mawile, Mega Metagross, and Mega Lucario. In addition, these Fairies can become much more solid counters to Dragon-types that commonly run Steel-type coverage (Dragonite and Kyurem-Black come to mind). The primary users of Babiri Berry are Whimsicott (read Melodic D Minor's post in the 1v1 Viability Rankings for more details) and Sylveon.
Charti Berry: I've never seen this used, but I suppose it could be used to counterteam a Rhyperior user, live a Rock Wrecker, and 2HKO by taking advantage of the recharge turn.
Chilan Berry: Needs to see more use; any Pokemon can use this and better handle Specs Meloetta, Porygon-Z, Slaking, Mega Lopunny (if you have Protect to handle Fake Out), and more.
Chople Berry: Might be worth using on a Counter Blissey to avoid an OHKO (though Eviolite Chansey is better in most other circumstances). I also considered using this on Tyranitar, which also learns Counter.
Coba Berry: Very little utility, as Flying-type attacks are fairly rare in 1v1. Fighting-types can run this if the ladder becomes infested with Talonflame (no relevant Grass or Bug-types with a free item slot are weak to Flying). Coba Berry also weakens Mega Charizard Y's Air Slash, but since Mega Charizard Y goes for Blast Burn most of the time anyway, it's generally not worth running.
Colbur Berry: An excellent answer to Knock Off, and very little else. Dark-type attacks aren't really seen enough to justify the use of this berry.
Haban Berry: Only usable on Dragons, but certainly a very viable option, most notably on Kyurem-Black, which becomes a surefire answer to other Kyurem-Blacks, Garchomps, Dragonites, Haxoruses, Latioses, and the like. Functions similarly to Weakness Policy Kyurem-Black, but without requiring an excessive amount of bulk investment.
Kasib Berry: Most of the relevant Pokemon that are weak to Ghost are offensive Mega Evolutions like Alakazam, Gardevoir, and Gengar. This is a pretty horrible item choice in most cases.
Kebia Berry: Never seen it used, but I feel like it could see some use on Sylveon, as Dragon-types also commonly run Poison-type coverage. (Whimsicott can live a Landorus-I Sludge Wave more often than not with Kebia Berry, but this is an incredibly obscure case.)
Occa Berry: Mega Charizard Y can generally KO Pokemon even after Occa Berry thanks to the boost from sun, but Mega Charizard X can be walled by using Occa Berries on Pokemon like Whimsicott and Scizor. Unfortunately, Y's usage is generally significantly higher than X's on most of the ladder, so it's difficult to justify using this in most cases.
Passho Berry: Also deserves more use to help deal with Mega Gyarados and Greninja. Rhyperior can easily live a Waterfall from Mega Gyarados even though Solid Rock is negated for instance. It's debatable if Endure + Custap Berry just outclasses that, however. aesf cites Diancie as a potential user of this berry.
Payapa Berry: Never, ever, ever seen this and I honestly didn't know it existed until recently. However, it looks interesting for Fighting-types, at least when Alakazam is being used on the ladder. Those with strong Dark type coverage can easily retaliate against it (Conkeldurr comes to mind). It's also potentially useful against Hoopa-U, which usually runs Psychic or Psyshock (per omnisc). Unfortunately, the very existence of Gardevoir-Mega, which tends to use Fairy-type moves to hit these Fighting-types, makes this berry useless unless some serious counterteaming is taking place. (NickXVZ points out that Infernape could make use of this berry, since it's neutral to Fairy. I've seen Infernape used on the ladder recently so, who knows — this could be useful.)
Rindo Berry: Makes Rhyperior a Mega Charizard Y counter, most notably; it can also take some random Grass Knots with this berry and a little investment. Again, Endure + Custap might outclass this. Could also potentially be utilized on Water-types like Manaphy to have a better matchup against Mega Charizard Y. Swampert can run this to surprise Mega Charizard Y and Energy Ball Specs Meloetta and OHKO back with Mirror Coat (thanks Articuno I).
Roseli Berry: A newcomer in Generation VI for obvious reasons, this berry could be useful on Dragons, most notably Kyurem-Black, to more effectively take on Gardevoir-Mega, Sylveon, and Mega Altaria and living their Hyper Voices/Beams with enough bulk investment.
Shuca Berry: Generally unused because of the existence of Air Balloon; at least the berry doesn't immediately announce its existence. Unfortunately, the main non-Mega Steel-type, Heatran, is still effectively weak to Ground with this berry, and it doesn't have the power to OHKO common users of Ground-type moves, so it prefers the immunity provided by Air Balloon. Most other Ground-weak Pokemon are Mega Evolutions.
Tanga Berry: It's hard to imagine why anyone would want to use this. The most commonly used Bug-type move, from my experience, is Mega Heracross' Pin Missile, and Tanga Berry only activates on the first hit. Bug weaknesses are rare anyway.
Wacan Berry: I once lost with Magnezone against a Wacan Berry Superpower Azumarill, so I suppose that's a decent, if strange, lure. Otherwise, Electric-types are not common enough to justify this getting any use. Another one of those berries that mostly works for counterteaming. If you see a lot of Magnezones or Mega Manectrics on the ladder, it might be worth considering this on Manaphy, Keldeo, Mandibuzz, and the like.
Yache Berry: Pretty useful, most notably for taking Ice Beams from Kyurem-B and Greninja. The best user is Dragonite, which against Greninja is also assisted by Multiscale. Whimsicott, Garchomp, and Landorus are other potential users.
That's all for now — let me know on here or PS if you have additional suggestions.
Resist Berries!
Babiri Berry: Perhaps the single most useful one of these, the Babiri Berry is used primarily on Fairy-types to bolster their solid defensive typings by allowing them to check common Steel-types like Mega Mawile, Mega Metagross, and Mega Lucario. In addition, these Fairies can become much more solid counters to Dragon-types that commonly run Steel-type coverage (Dragonite and Kyurem-Black come to mind). The primary users of Babiri Berry are Whimsicott (read Melodic D Minor's post in the 1v1 Viability Rankings for more details) and Sylveon.
Charti Berry: I've never seen this used, but I suppose it could be used to counterteam a Rhyperior user, live a Rock Wrecker, and 2HKO by taking advantage of the recharge turn.
Chilan Berry: Needs to see more use; any Pokemon can use this and better handle Specs Meloetta, Porygon-Z, Slaking, Mega Lopunny (if you have Protect to handle Fake Out), and more.
Chople Berry: Might be worth using on a Counter Blissey to avoid an OHKO (though Eviolite Chansey is better in most other circumstances). I also considered using this on Tyranitar, which also learns Counter.
Coba Berry: Very little utility, as Flying-type attacks are fairly rare in 1v1. Fighting-types can run this if the ladder becomes infested with Talonflame (no relevant Grass or Bug-types with a free item slot are weak to Flying). Coba Berry also weakens Mega Charizard Y's Air Slash, but since Mega Charizard Y goes for Blast Burn most of the time anyway, it's generally not worth running.
Colbur Berry: An excellent answer to Knock Off, and very little else. Dark-type attacks aren't really seen enough to justify the use of this berry.
Haban Berry: Only usable on Dragons, but certainly a very viable option, most notably on Kyurem-Black, which becomes a surefire answer to other Kyurem-Blacks, Garchomps, Dragonites, Haxoruses, Latioses, and the like. Functions similarly to Weakness Policy Kyurem-Black, but without requiring an excessive amount of bulk investment.
Kasib Berry: Most of the relevant Pokemon that are weak to Ghost are offensive Mega Evolutions like Alakazam, Gardevoir, and Gengar. This is a pretty horrible item choice in most cases.
Kebia Berry: Never seen it used, but I feel like it could see some use on Sylveon, as Dragon-types also commonly run Poison-type coverage. (Whimsicott can live a Landorus-I Sludge Wave more often than not with Kebia Berry, but this is an incredibly obscure case.)
Occa Berry: Mega Charizard Y can generally KO Pokemon even after Occa Berry thanks to the boost from sun, but Mega Charizard X can be walled by using Occa Berries on Pokemon like Whimsicott and Scizor. Unfortunately, Y's usage is generally significantly higher than X's on most of the ladder, so it's difficult to justify using this in most cases.
Passho Berry: Also deserves more use to help deal with Mega Gyarados and Greninja. Rhyperior can easily live a Waterfall from Mega Gyarados even though Solid Rock is negated for instance. It's debatable if Endure + Custap Berry just outclasses that, however. aesf cites Diancie as a potential user of this berry.
Payapa Berry: Never, ever, ever seen this and I honestly didn't know it existed until recently. However, it looks interesting for Fighting-types, at least when Alakazam is being used on the ladder. Those with strong Dark type coverage can easily retaliate against it (Conkeldurr comes to mind). It's also potentially useful against Hoopa-U, which usually runs Psychic or Psyshock (per omnisc). Unfortunately, the very existence of Gardevoir-Mega, which tends to use Fairy-type moves to hit these Fighting-types, makes this berry useless unless some serious counterteaming is taking place. (NickXVZ points out that Infernape could make use of this berry, since it's neutral to Fairy. I've seen Infernape used on the ladder recently so, who knows — this could be useful.)
Rindo Berry: Makes Rhyperior a Mega Charizard Y counter, most notably; it can also take some random Grass Knots with this berry and a little investment. Again, Endure + Custap might outclass this. Could also potentially be utilized on Water-types like Manaphy to have a better matchup against Mega Charizard Y. Swampert can run this to surprise Mega Charizard Y and Energy Ball Specs Meloetta and OHKO back with Mirror Coat (thanks Articuno I).
Roseli Berry: A newcomer in Generation VI for obvious reasons, this berry could be useful on Dragons, most notably Kyurem-Black, to more effectively take on Gardevoir-Mega, Sylveon, and Mega Altaria and living their Hyper Voices/Beams with enough bulk investment.
Shuca Berry: Generally unused because of the existence of Air Balloon; at least the berry doesn't immediately announce its existence. Unfortunately, the main non-Mega Steel-type, Heatran, is still effectively weak to Ground with this berry, and it doesn't have the power to OHKO common users of Ground-type moves, so it prefers the immunity provided by Air Balloon. Most other Ground-weak Pokemon are Mega Evolutions.
Tanga Berry: It's hard to imagine why anyone would want to use this. The most commonly used Bug-type move, from my experience, is Mega Heracross' Pin Missile, and Tanga Berry only activates on the first hit. Bug weaknesses are rare anyway.
Wacan Berry: I once lost with Magnezone against a Wacan Berry Superpower Azumarill, so I suppose that's a decent, if strange, lure. Otherwise, Electric-types are not common enough to justify this getting any use. Another one of those berries that mostly works for counterteaming. If you see a lot of Magnezones or Mega Manectrics on the ladder, it might be worth considering this on Manaphy, Keldeo, Mandibuzz, and the like.
Yache Berry: Pretty useful, most notably for taking Ice Beams from Kyurem-B and Greninja. The best user is Dragonite, which against Greninja is also assisted by Multiscale. Whimsicott, Garchomp, and Landorus are other potential users.
That's all for now — let me know on here or PS if you have additional suggestions.
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I saw a cool Swampert set a long while ago running CounterCoat, with Rindo allowing it to counter Zard Y (so long as it's not predicted and WoW'd first) and Energy Ball Specs Melo. Beats quite a few things and a bit less predictable than aggron or wobbuffet, honestly.
The suspect test has ended.
Ban - 35 votes
Do not ban - 7 votes
35/42 = 83%
Perish Song is now banned from 1v1. Thanks to everyone that participated!
Ban - 35 votes
Do not ban - 7 votes
35/42 = 83%
Perish Song is now banned from 1v1. Thanks to everyone that participated!
Cheers on the 1v1 community. Without perish song, the people can play peacefully without having any trouble worrying about Perish Song and the opponent being slower than them or having Trick Room.
You will also see less 0-0s in 1v1 tournaments.
Also, I ask this question. Does Lapras even have viability anymore? All it can do now is basically curse set up (and that won't always be enough) or it can just have STAB moves and be lucky if it beats a Salamence-Mega or a really bad Charizard-Mega-Y.
You will also see less 0-0s in 1v1 tournaments.
Also, I ask this question. Does Lapras even have viability anymore? All it can do now is basically curse set up (and that won't always be enough) or it can just have STAB moves and be lucky if it beats a Salamence-Mega or a really bad Charizard-Mega-Y.
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This and it's great that players are no longer forced to race a 2/1 turn clock. Now slower sets can shine!
Very good the promised day is here, though its not like I didn't see this coming. It was pretty easy to see that the community wanted Perish Song gone, without it we can expect more potent stall & Set Up sets. Its defiantly going to be enjoyable playing and not having to blind taunt every Melo / Azu.
Hey guys, there's something I've been meaning to bring up here for a long time, but didn't, to not disrupt or take attention away from the Perish Song discussion, namely the Trick/Switcheroo + Choice Item strategy. I'm suggesting that it's an unhealthy and broken strategy for 1v1 and that it should be banned. This might come as a surprise or sound ridiculous to some people, but I'm not saying this lightly. I have spent some considerable amount of time thinking about this, and trying to think of acceptable counters and I've come to the conclusion that there aren't any.
There’s much to say about this so I don't know if I'll get it all in this post but here goes.
A choice item gives a boost in speed or power in exchange for being able to only use the 1st move the pokemon used since acquiring the choice item. When someone decides to use a choice item they are crippling themselves on purpose in order to gain an advantage in speed or power. That cripple they gave themselves should be exploitable by the opponent, and it really is, unless they use trick. Furthermore, it cripples the opposing poke, a poke that might have a set that requires the use of more than 1 move to work. What this means is that if the trick user suspects that you will lose if you rely on more than 1 move to win, they can use trick and you will then have instantly have lost the battle if their suspicion was true.
So to the people who say “TrickChoice is just a counter to stall”: no, it doesn't just counter stall. TrickChoice beats every non-mega in 1v1 that doesn't rely on 1 move only.
Let's check some example pokemon strategy archetypes TrickChoice beats here:
- Stall ✔
- Defensive setup ✔
- Offensive setup ✔
- Wear down strategies (offense moves + recovery just in case, is still offense) ✔
- Coverage moves + a priority move (this is offense by the way) ✔
- Multi-move gimmicks (this can still be offense) ✔
- Pretty much else beside pure offense and megas (correct me if I'm wrong) ✔
What other options do you have left? Just massive offense that can outspeed and OHKO or take a hit and OHKO, and megas (which will be addressed below).
I believe the reason no one has complained about TrickChoice is because it isn't used as much as everything else and that most people are using massive offense and megas already which TrickChoice doesn't work against. To them TrickChoice isn't an aspect of the battle, instead it's just about type and stats advantages in the match-up, just a battle of types, speed, and power.
So who are the main offenders?
Meloetta @ Choice Specs
Porygon-Z @ Choice Specs / Scarf
Victini @ Choice Band / Scarf
Of course there's also Togekiss, Jirachi, Alakazam, Hoopa-U, Latios, Chandelure, and Rotom.
I have been told to "just use megas or offense", but that is not an acceptable counter in my opinion. Firstly, just because you used a mega or an offense poke that doesn’t mean that you will win. The Trick poke still has 3 other moves that could beat your poke, especially with a potential power or speed advantage to your own poke, not to mention potential typing and stat advantage.
How many pokes can take a band V-Create for example without being defensive? Which is what TrickChoice takes care of.
Secondly, lets say we assume megas are a straight up counter (they aren't), should a metagame be reduced to only megas, a small fraction of all of the available and viable pokemon?
You shouldn’t be forced to use a very specific strategy like utter offense, nor should you be forced to use megas in a balanced metagame.
In conclusion from above, TrickChoice not only easily beats everything else, it also puts up a good fight and can win against OHKO-type of offense and megas, depending on match-up. From this we can conclude that there are very few downsides to using TrickChoice and that it's just playing on easy-mode.
TrickChoice has always been an obnoxious strategy even before gen6, but at least then it did have an acceptable counter, Mail. Mail doesn't exist in gen6. And even if you used Mail, you would be putting yourself at a massive disadvantage because it's like not having an item vs everything that doesn't use trick. But at least that was available as counter-play. When Mail existed good players would think twice before using Trick when holding a choice item. Now people just mindlessly use TrickChoice without even having to consider potential repercussions.
Now you could tell me to use the abilities Sticky Hold or Klutz, but I've already considered using those and the pokes that get them are very few and aren't viable at all. I've even gone as far as to try Magic Room to deal with TrickChoice, but that is also not viable at all in 1v1 and I could tell in detail why if needed. Protect + Disable mega Banette does beat all choiced pokes, but it isn't useful for much else, it isn't viable in the current 1v1 meta and you shouldn't be forced to use it.
Finally, I believe part of the reason TrickChoice hasn't caught any attention in 6v6 metagames is because the battle isn't instantly over because of it there. If subjected to it you could still switch out, switch back in and use another move, and maybe switch out again. 1v1 is fundamentally different in that regard, and this really needs to be considered when balancing the metagame. The Perish Song ban is an example of such a consideration and that's a step in the right direction, Perish Song is not broken in 6v6 but it is in 1v1. These are some very serious points I've made and none of them should be taken lightly.
I'm expecting some “TrickChoice is easy to beat" replies, but like I said before, just because you already use the strategy or pokemon that sometimes or always beats the suggested broken thing in question, doesn't make it any less broken. Everything has a counter, but that doesn't mean that everything should be allowed in a balanced metagame. Even if the counter is already being used by a majority of the players.
Edit: Protect + Disable Banette, not Sableye
There’s much to say about this so I don't know if I'll get it all in this post but here goes.
A choice item gives a boost in speed or power in exchange for being able to only use the 1st move the pokemon used since acquiring the choice item. When someone decides to use a choice item they are crippling themselves on purpose in order to gain an advantage in speed or power. That cripple they gave themselves should be exploitable by the opponent, and it really is, unless they use trick. Furthermore, it cripples the opposing poke, a poke that might have a set that requires the use of more than 1 move to work. What this means is that if the trick user suspects that you will lose if you rely on more than 1 move to win, they can use trick and you will then have instantly have lost the battle if their suspicion was true.
So to the people who say “TrickChoice is just a counter to stall”: no, it doesn't just counter stall. TrickChoice beats every non-mega in 1v1 that doesn't rely on 1 move only.
Let's check some example pokemon strategy archetypes TrickChoice beats here:
- Stall ✔
- Defensive setup ✔
- Offensive setup ✔
- Wear down strategies (offense moves + recovery just in case, is still offense) ✔
- Coverage moves + a priority move (this is offense by the way) ✔
- Multi-move gimmicks (this can still be offense) ✔
- Pretty much else beside pure offense and megas (correct me if I'm wrong) ✔
What other options do you have left? Just massive offense that can outspeed and OHKO or take a hit and OHKO, and megas (which will be addressed below).
I believe the reason no one has complained about TrickChoice is because it isn't used as much as everything else and that most people are using massive offense and megas already which TrickChoice doesn't work against. To them TrickChoice isn't an aspect of the battle, instead it's just about type and stats advantages in the match-up, just a battle of types, speed, and power.
So who are the main offenders?
Modest Nature
- Hyper Beam
- coverage move (Psychic / Psyshock /Energy Ball / Hyper Voice / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Dazzling Gleam / Thunderbolt)
- coverage move
- Trick
- Hyper Beam
- coverage move (Psychic / Psyshock /Energy Ball / Hyper Voice / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Dazzling Gleam / Thunderbolt)
- coverage move
- Trick
Modest / Timid Nature
Adaptability
- Hyper Beam
- coverage move (Ice Beam / Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse / Thunderbolt / Psychic / Hidden Power)
- coverage move
- Trick
Adaptability
- Hyper Beam
- coverage move (Ice Beam / Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse / Thunderbolt / Psychic / Hidden Power)
- coverage move
- Trick
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Zen Headbutt
- coverage move (usually Bolt Strike)
- Trick
- V-create
- Zen Headbutt
- coverage move (usually Bolt Strike)
- Trick
Of course there's also Togekiss, Jirachi, Alakazam, Hoopa-U, Latios, Chandelure, and Rotom.
I have been told to "just use megas or offense", but that is not an acceptable counter in my opinion. Firstly, just because you used a mega or an offense poke that doesn’t mean that you will win. The Trick poke still has 3 other moves that could beat your poke, especially with a potential power or speed advantage to your own poke, not to mention potential typing and stat advantage.
How many pokes can take a band V-Create for example without being defensive? Which is what TrickChoice takes care of.
Secondly, lets say we assume megas are a straight up counter (they aren't), should a metagame be reduced to only megas, a small fraction of all of the available and viable pokemon?
You shouldn’t be forced to use a very specific strategy like utter offense, nor should you be forced to use megas in a balanced metagame.
In conclusion from above, TrickChoice not only easily beats everything else, it also puts up a good fight and can win against OHKO-type of offense and megas, depending on match-up. From this we can conclude that there are very few downsides to using TrickChoice and that it's just playing on easy-mode.
TrickChoice has always been an obnoxious strategy even before gen6, but at least then it did have an acceptable counter, Mail. Mail doesn't exist in gen6. And even if you used Mail, you would be putting yourself at a massive disadvantage because it's like not having an item vs everything that doesn't use trick. But at least that was available as counter-play. When Mail existed good players would think twice before using Trick when holding a choice item. Now people just mindlessly use TrickChoice without even having to consider potential repercussions.
Now you could tell me to use the abilities Sticky Hold or Klutz, but I've already considered using those and the pokes that get them are very few and aren't viable at all. I've even gone as far as to try Magic Room to deal with TrickChoice, but that is also not viable at all in 1v1 and I could tell in detail why if needed. Protect + Disable mega Banette does beat all choiced pokes, but it isn't useful for much else, it isn't viable in the current 1v1 meta and you shouldn't be forced to use it.
Finally, I believe part of the reason TrickChoice hasn't caught any attention in 6v6 metagames is because the battle isn't instantly over because of it there. If subjected to it you could still switch out, switch back in and use another move, and maybe switch out again. 1v1 is fundamentally different in that regard, and this really needs to be considered when balancing the metagame. The Perish Song ban is an example of such a consideration and that's a step in the right direction, Perish Song is not broken in 6v6 but it is in 1v1. These are some very serious points I've made and none of them should be taken lightly.
I'm expecting some “TrickChoice is easy to beat" replies, but like I said before, just because you already use the strategy or pokemon that sometimes or always beats the suggested broken thing in question, doesn't make it any less broken. Everything has a counter, but that doesn't mean that everything should be allowed in a balanced metagame. Even if the counter is already being used by a majority of the players.
Edit: Protect + Disable Banette, not Sableye
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I disagree with Disable+Protect being unviable. With the popularity of choice items in 1v1, a set that beats all them is a pretty good choice. I want to disagree with the rest of your points, but your argument is too similar to the arguments against Perish Song. I can't refute any other of your points so I support a test of Choice+Trick.
Edit: sorta nitpicking but your Victini set should list Bolt Strike in the second slot and Zen Headbutt slashed in the third slot. There see very few cases where Zen Headbutt outs damages V-Create, so its used mostly if you need a STAB move without drawbacks. Meanwhile Bolt Strike is a necessity against Water types like Gyarados.
Edit: sorta nitpicking but your Victini set should list Bolt Strike in the second slot and Zen Headbutt slashed in the third slot. There see very few cases where Zen Headbutt outs damages V-Create, so its used mostly if you need a STAB move without drawbacks. Meanwhile Bolt Strike is a necessity against Water types like Gyarados.
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Well, using Protect + Disable Banette means that u are almost guaranteed a loss vs anything that isn't holding a choice item. And that's not gonna work in high ladder. And that's the reason Protect + Disable Banette doesn't have much use in 1v1.
Edit: here's another Protect + Disable set, and why it isn't that good
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I honestly find that Chansey is capable of beating most Trick + Choice, although it uses different sets to beat different mons. For example: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/1v1-259348760
Meanwhile Counter Chansey beats any Victini set not running a special move for some reason, due to Trick having less pp than Counter.
And finally, I'm forced to ask what's so bad about running a mega? Whether it's stall or offense, setup or Straight-out attack, a mega will be decent at it, and being forced to run one mega on a team doesn't sound particularly bad TBH. If you want to run stall, which is probably the playstyle hit hardest by this tactic, then Mega Sableye, Mega Venusaur, Mega Slowbro and Stall Mega Zard X are all highly viable.
Honestly, I just don't see Trick + Choice as being as uncounterable as Perish Song was.
Finally, if there is ever a ban, I'd be highly surprised if it weren't a Trick ban, as Trick + Choice would be needlessly complex.
Meanwhile Counter Chansey beats any Victini set not running a special move for some reason, due to Trick having less pp than Counter.
And finally, I'm forced to ask what's so bad about running a mega? Whether it's stall or offense, setup or Straight-out attack, a mega will be decent at it, and being forced to run one mega on a team doesn't sound particularly bad TBH. If you want to run stall, which is probably the playstyle hit hardest by this tactic, then Mega Sableye, Mega Venusaur, Mega Slowbro and Stall Mega Zard X are all highly viable.
Honestly, I just don't see Trick + Choice as being as uncounterable as Perish Song was.
Finally, if there is ever a ban, I'd be highly surprised if it weren't a Trick ban, as Trick + Choice would be needlessly complex.
I'll address your points in the order you made them.
Regarding that replay, just 1 Energy Ball spD drop from that serene grace Meloetta would have been enough for Meloetta to win, which had a 59% chance to happen in the 4 turns of Energy Ball before Hyper Beam. This means that Chansey is not a reliable and acceptable counter for all TrickChoice in high level play. And let's just for arguments sake say it was, then that's still 1 counter, which doesn't change the nature of the TrickChoice strategy. All it does is prove my point, which is that "TrickChoice beats every non-mega in 1v1 that doesn't rely on 1 move only", and this Chansey relied on 1 move to win. And the same applies in the Counter Chansey vs Victini match-up.
As for the highly viable megas you mentioned, I knew from experience that they are not highly viable vs the most common TrickChoice pokes, but I did some calc's just in case.
Mega Sableye
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Venusaur
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 254-300 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 342-403 (93.9 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 255-300 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 356-422 (97.8 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 410-486 (112.6 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 350-414 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Mega Slowbro
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 266-314 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 460-542 (116.7 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Charizard X
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Charizard X: 442-522 (122.7 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Charizard X: 192-226 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (some meloetta's run hyper voice in case of substitute)
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Venusaur
252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 254-300 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 342-403 (93.9 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 255-300 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 356-422 (97.8 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 410-486 (112.6 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 350-414 (96.1 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Mega Slowbro
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 266-314 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Slowbro: 460-542 (116.7 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Charizard X
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Charizard X: 442-522 (122.7 - 145%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Charizard X: 192-226 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (some meloetta's run hyper voice in case of substitute)
Now, just because you don't see TrickChoice being just as uncounterable as Perish Song, that doesn't make my points any less valid, nor should they be taken any less seriously. TrickChoice is a very unhealthy strategy to keep in a competitive 1v1 metagame.
Also Trick by itself has a number of legitimate and non-broken uses, and so do Choice items by themselves, and Trick + Choice wouldn't be an unprecedented ban.
Ok, I'll accept that it beats every non-mega that doesn't rely on one move. That said, Chansey is normally a mon that relies on more than one move, and I think the fact that it can adapt to at least beat Victini shows that there's quite a bit of flexibility to be considered. Moreover as I said in the chat in that video DEG had recently changed his EVs; beforehand Seismic had 4HKO'd meaning Chansey had >50% chance of winning. A faster, less bulky spread is more common from my experience too. In any case, I think it a fair example of a mon at least sometimes capable of winning despite a tactic designed explicitly to defeat walls such as itself.
Mega Sableye: Metal Burst. GG Victini. Honestly I'm not sure I can think of a choice + trick mon that beats sableye reliably.
Mega Venusaur: Ok TBH I don't even know why people run this poke, with all the subs everywhere I've never really seen it as particularly viable TBH. That said, it can sleep powder tini after the V-Create and then eq or something? IDK. With Leech Seed and Synthesis, it seems like you'd probably need bad luck like a 1st turn wake to actually lose here. Factoring in Sleep Powder miss it's at worst gonna be a 50% win, surely.
In terms of Meloetta, I never claimed countering a Psychic poke with a Poison poke was a good idea. But you can have separate counters for Melo and Tini, surely.
Mega Slowbro: Again, it beats Tini. I never claimed countering a Special Attacker with a Physical Wall was a good idea <_<
StallZard X: Beats a fair number of threats still. But, sure, there's something of a lack of P-Z counters and true Melo counters, lemme throw out a few more.
Mega Venusaur: Ok TBH I don't even know why people run this poke, with all the subs everywhere I've never really seen it as particularly viable TBH. That said, it can sleep powder tini after the V-Create and then eq or something? IDK. With Leech Seed and Synthesis, it seems like you'd probably need bad luck like a 1st turn wake to actually lose here. Factoring in Sleep Powder miss it's at worst gonna be a 50% win, surely.
In terms of Meloetta, I never claimed countering a Psychic poke with a Poison poke was a good idea. But you can have separate counters for Melo and Tini, surely.
Mega Slowbro: Again, it beats Tini. I never claimed countering a Special Attacker with a Physical Wall was a good idea <_<
StallZard X: Beats a fair number of threats still. But, sure, there's something of a lack of P-Z counters and true Melo counters, lemme throw out a few more.
Mega Aggron: I didn't mention this because it was somewhat obvious and not entirely stall, however I've seen a few people running Rest which most certainly makes it a stally mon. Moreover, not a single choice + trick mon will beat it that I know of.
Togekiss: 252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 144-169 (38.6 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
8 SpA Choice Specs Togekiss Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meloetta: 115-136 (33.7 - 39.8%) -- 29.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
In other words, the Togekiss can safely Air Slash turn 1, if melo tricks it loses and if not Toge can Twave next turn then roost stall.
I will admit that it's a difficult strategy to beat for stall. However, despite different mons often needing different counters, it certainly isn't impossible for stall to beat, and Stall will never exactly have an easy time in this meta (outside of Chansey and arguably Aggron), the fact that it's viable is good enough.
I voted for a Perish Song ban because there were no counters on stall and few enough even including other playstyles. Trick + Choice is far more easily counterable, and possible to counter (if not easy to counter) on stall. I therefore believe it not to be broken.
That's enough reason to ban right there. Centralization aside, this is the same level of boring that Perish Song caused, it promotes the use of 1 move strategies while making almost all other approaches useless.
But TrickChoice doesn't stop at that, like I said in my initial post, it can also beat megas as proven by the calcs I posted and 1 move strategies as well. I can post more calcs for different archetypes than bulky megas and you will see that those 3 most common TrickChoice pokes can also beat them.
Chansey can win match-ups by just using Counter, that means it doesn't rely on more than 1 move to work. TrickChoice completely shuts down all strategies that require the use of more than 1 move to work, unless mega.
Except that that's not true at all, The 3 most common Modest Meloetta spreads that show up in the usage stats are at least 240 EV's in HP, which means it's a 5HKO.
Like I said earlier, this is 1 potential check, and an S rank poke at that, with many possible sets. And it uses Counter, a move which if successful will probably OHKO the opponent, and that counts as offense, even if bulky. Also, Chansey can many times win by just spamming Seismic Toss alone and live whatever you throw at it. If the TrickChoice tactic was intended to just beat walls, then it has also while not even trying to, beaten a vast majority of different archetypes in the process.
Your point here is that some megas beat the TrickChoice pokes, which I never even disputed in the 1st place. Secondly, you're saying that it's purely match-up based and that that's ok. But it's not ok, the TrickChoice pokes have an advantage in power (or speed in other cases) that they have made an intentional sacrifice for. A sacrifice that means that they all could easily be beaten by anything that exploits that they can only use 1 move, such as Disable, Torment, a typing change, pp stall, etc. That sacrifice is nullified by trick, and on top of that, they are imposing it on you, making your poke only be able to use the 1st move it picked.
First of all, this quote "...and possible to counter (if not easy to counter) on stall.", if I'm understanding it correctly, you are saying that stall easily counters TrickChoice? Stall almost always requires the use of more than one move in order to succeed, so you statement (if I understood it correctly) is just not true. And about stall having the possibility to counter TrickChoice, whatever stall that would counter TrickChoice, that would be the exception rather than the norm.
Secondly, this is getting kind of repetitive, but TrickChoice doesn't only beat stall, it beats almost any set that relies on more than 1 move, minus the megas, while still being able to beat sets that can rely on just 1 move and megas.
Also, just because TrickChoice invalidates a huge pool of pokemon and sets in a different way than Perish Song did, doesn't mean it's not broken.
Not to mention that you are ignoring the arguments about Mail and how TrickChoice is a broken concept for 1v1, which each hold a weight of their own and are enough reason for a ban.
Why do people think that stall has to be the best playstyle in every metagame? Even suspecting trick + choice is honestly a hilarious thought. Megas are extremely viable here since they have no opportunity cost, and stall even has access to certain megas. Perish song was op vs offense as well since it forced you to 2HKO Meloetta and Azu. But Trick wastes a moveslot a lot of the time. And it doesn't even unconditionally beat stall. It doesn't even beat stall and that isn't even a sufficient reason to ban. Can we please move on?
Okay lets go over whats wrong with your post:
- Nobody is asserting that Stall should be the best playstyle in every metagame, or even 1v1. What we are asserting is that Stall needs to be viable.
- Suspecting Trick + Choice isn't hilarious or ridiculous. People should be open minded about suspects. Rumplestilskin brought up several good points, you shouldn't just laugh them off, you should debate them.
- As we previously stated before, not all Megas beat Trick/Choice users, you assume that every Trick/Choice user needs to use Trick every match up, Victini wins alot of match ups just by using Band boosted V-create.
- Does Trick have to unconditionally beat stall to be broken? No, and its hardly a waste of a moveslot. Is Fusion Bolt a waste a move slot on Kyurem-B because it doesn't beat Gyarados all the time? No, its not. Trick doesn't have to be useful in every single matchup, it just needs to win matchups you would otherwise lose to earn a spot.
- So no we shouldn't move on, because the subject has barely been discussed and you have done a poor job of refuting Rumplestilskin's points.
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With the majority of the metagame being filled with mega evolution, trickchoice isn't always completely viable, but does play a huge role in stall. With this, if the stall poke does not have a mega evolution, trickchoice can be abused to shut down stall and setup, making practically half of Pokemon useless. There are also many other viable trickchoice users, one of my favorite being Metagross. Unlike Taunt, there isn't a common way to stop someone from tricking, or switcherooing items and put you into a permanent encore, and then they proceed to KOing your Pokemon. Using specific Pokemon with the ability Suction Cups or having to use a pure mega team just so you can use pretty much any move that you wouldn't want to be encored into.
To wrap things up, TrickChoice is pretty much an endless Encore that ignores Magic Bounce... With this kind of set going around, most stall is no longer viable. I am in favor of a simple Trick-Choice ban, as it will go to greatly improving a balanced metagame.
To wrap things up, TrickChoice is pretty much an endless Encore that ignores Magic Bounce... With this kind of set going around, most stall is no longer viable. I am in favor of a simple Trick-Choice ban, as it will go to greatly improving a balanced metagame.
It does sound funny if you just read "ban Trick+Choice" but the points raised do make sense! However, it isn't a problem for everything that learns Trick. I do not agree with a Trick+Choice suspect. It is a complex and unnecessary ban. If certain Pokemon that can utilize this strategy are deemed broken, such as Victini, then we can ban said Pokemon.
Then we would have a lot of banning to do, since there's 3 very popular pokes that utilize this strategy right now, and many more that are not as popular, and I just don't see that happening or getting accepted by the players. Regarding it being a complex ban, i talked with xfix about this case on PS, and he did raise a few reasonable points about just banning Trick instead of Trick + Choice. He was arguing that there are no other viable uses for Trick to justify not banning it in 1v1. I was reluctant because I'm constantly in the process of finding new gimmicks, that could eventually become valid strategies. However, I'm willing to compromise in this case if a Trick + Choice ban would be absolutely out of the question.
I don't think Trick + Choice needs a ban, nor that it should even require a suspect test, for a number of reasons.
Firstly, I don't see having to use Megas or pokemon that are capable of winning with just one move as being particularly restrictive. Only a very small number of mons are only capable of winning when using more than one move, and also aren't megas. Having to run Mega Sableye in order to beat them doesn't seem like a particularly huge negative, given that it wins in a large number of situations anyway, and is very stally. Furthermore, if Trick + Choice is a large factor in games, the Protect/Disable strat that you claim to be uncompetitive surely has a niche?
Secondly, I don't see Trick + Choice making stall an unusable playstyle in the way you claim. I've shown a number of stall options available, from Counter Chansey (which I maintain is a stall mon) to Mega Sableye to SpD Togekiss to Mega Slowbro. Trick + Choice reduces the viability of stall somewhat, in the same way that stallbreakers in OU do, but doesn't make it entirely unusable.
Thirdly, playstyles in 1v1 are far less well-defined than most metagames. The only requirement is that you can beat any viable mon with one of your pokes, whereas in most metagames there's momentum to consider as a large factor. The upshot of this is that I find utilizing three stall mons has far less meaning in 1v1 than in OU, as where in OU you couldn't switch out SpD Heatran for Wallbreaker Zard Y and expect the team to do well, you can in 1v1. The conclusion all this is headed towards is that I don't see Stall as being a playstyle that needs to be preserved in quite the same way, as you can still run stally mons and expect them to work perfectly well even if your last mon is forced to be offensive.
The key difference here between Trick + Choice and Perish Song is that even offense often struggled against Perish Song sets, and it was a very rare strat that you needed a dedicated counter for. Having to run an offensive mon on a team, even if it were the case (which it isn't), would make Trick + Choice easily dealt with, and not force you to run a mon that otherwise weakened the team.
To add to this point even further, we have little reason to outright need to protect playstyles. Again to turn back to OU, I'll quote Oglemi in this post:
Finally, and slightly aside from the other points, it would be a terrible shame for mons that are extremely viable even when not running Trick + Choice, such as Victini or Meloetta, to get banned over this when the vast majority of players can play around the strategy already and the few others could with some slight team modification. If anything, it should be a Trick ban as this has practically no viability outside of Trick + Choice, but for the above reasons I don't believe the strategy to be broken in any case.
Firstly, I don't see having to use Megas or pokemon that are capable of winning with just one move as being particularly restrictive. Only a very small number of mons are only capable of winning when using more than one move, and also aren't megas. Having to run Mega Sableye in order to beat them doesn't seem like a particularly huge negative, given that it wins in a large number of situations anyway, and is very stally. Furthermore, if Trick + Choice is a large factor in games, the Protect/Disable strat that you claim to be uncompetitive surely has a niche?
Secondly, I don't see Trick + Choice making stall an unusable playstyle in the way you claim. I've shown a number of stall options available, from Counter Chansey (which I maintain is a stall mon) to Mega Sableye to SpD Togekiss to Mega Slowbro. Trick + Choice reduces the viability of stall somewhat, in the same way that stallbreakers in OU do, but doesn't make it entirely unusable.
Thirdly, playstyles in 1v1 are far less well-defined than most metagames. The only requirement is that you can beat any viable mon with one of your pokes, whereas in most metagames there's momentum to consider as a large factor. The upshot of this is that I find utilizing three stall mons has far less meaning in 1v1 than in OU, as where in OU you couldn't switch out SpD Heatran for Wallbreaker Zard Y and expect the team to do well, you can in 1v1. The conclusion all this is headed towards is that I don't see Stall as being a playstyle that needs to be preserved in quite the same way, as you can still run stally mons and expect them to work perfectly well even if your last mon is forced to be offensive.
The key difference here between Trick + Choice and Perish Song is that even offense often struggled against Perish Song sets, and it was a very rare strat that you needed a dedicated counter for. Having to run an offensive mon on a team, even if it were the case (which it isn't), would make Trick + Choice easily dealt with, and not force you to run a mon that otherwise weakened the team.
To add to this point even further, we have little reason to outright need to protect playstyles. Again to turn back to OU, I'll quote Oglemi in this post:
I voted to ban Perish Song not just because it outright destroyed Stall, but that it made a lot of mons hard to use, caused a lot of trouble for teambuilding for any team that didn't happen to have one of a few particular mons, and could win 1/8 of the time even when you'd brought a counter and predicted correctly. Making stall unviable is a negative, but not bad enough to outright need a ban in itself and certainly not when it only nerfs stall rather than making it unusable.
Finally, and slightly aside from the other points, it would be a terrible shame for mons that are extremely viable even when not running Trick + Choice, such as Victini or Meloetta, to get banned over this when the vast majority of players can play around the strategy already and the few others could with some slight team modification. If anything, it should be a Trick ban as this has practically no viability outside of Trick + Choice, but for the above reasons I don't believe the strategy to be broken in any case.
I have to respond to this I think Olgemi's post is just so wrong, we should try to keep diversity an all playstyles viable. It's not healthy or fun when you are forced to run a certain style. Whether or not Trick+a Choice is that limiting on stall is debatable, but it needs a suspect if it is.
Stall is already viable,sableye is insanely good and beats everything you mentioned. Plus playstyles can'tcan't really ve defined in 1v1 because your 3 mons just need to be able to beat any given mon; it's not classic stall meaning that you don't need a switching to anything per se.
I know he brought up several points, they just didn't seem strong enough to warrant a suspect andsounded like they came from someone salty because his/her chansey lost its eviolite. So I will refute them again.
If victini is so good that it doesn't need trick to beat stuff, what stops me from saying something like "vcreate hits so much of the meta hard, plz ban"? What I meant when saying trick choice doesn't automatically beat stall was that the Mon is strong on its own and you should ask for it to be suspected instead. Trick choice itself is not op, its just that certain mons can use it to beat other threats.
Perish song was op because it was good in all matchups. Should shedinja be banned because it can auto beat some teams? Not at all. It needs to be procen yo reach a certain power level to be banned and I guess your definition is a lot lower.
So yes we should move on and instead you ahould prove why pz is op or why hoopa is op or why meloetta is op because trick is one option in their arsenals that is sometimes useful. Should disable be banned because it invalidates a choice item playstyle? I don't think so. And as we have proven. Trick choice fails against megas, which are insanely good, and it even loses to certain other stall mons.
Also sorry for typos and the premature post, I'm on mobile
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It is restrictive, because megas are 48 pokes, out of over 700. Now I'm not saying all 700+ pokes are viable in 1v1, but there's a considerable amount, and im not even counting undiscovered sets. You're saying that it's not a problem if almost all those pokes' multi-move sets are rendered useless. That is not acceptable for a balanced metagame.
The specs and band variants of the most common TrickChoice pokes are of course forces to be reckoned with and require pokes with some considerable bulk, which there aren't that many of. However, the scarf variants, and the other TrickChoice pokes can all be beaten by an abundance of different strategies which each has a relevant number of viable users (and yet again not even counting undiscovered sets), some of which i mentioned in my initial post.
You are once again making a point that a mega can beat TrickChoice, which I already don't dispute, furthermore, Mega Sableye loses to band Victini and specs Hoopa-U for example.
I said that Protect/Disable Banette isn't viable in high level play and in the post afterwards that Mega Alakazam is also not that good. They have a niche, but I repeat, it loses to pretty much anything that's not choiced. I'm saying that you shouldn't be forced to use it just for TrickChoice and that its existence doesn't make TrickChoice any less detrimental to 1v1.
Once again, I maintain that my point is that TrickChoice ruins non megas that require the use of more than 1 move, stall just so happens to be one of the strategies that many times require the use of more than 1 move to work. Counter Chansey and Spd Togekiss can obviously win by using 1 move only or you wouldn't be mentioning them here. Once again you are giving examples of megas beating TrickChoice as an argument.
And once again ignoring the fact that it's match-up based vs the non multi-move non-megas (megas, 1-move pokes, whatever non mega exceptions), as in some TrickChoice pokes can beat some of them.
Well, here's the thing, I never said anything about playstyles. I said that TrickChoice invalidates/ruins/beats the vast majority of pokemon archetypes, as in individual pokemon sets and strategies. So as with the same argument someone else made about Perish Song "just put something that beats Perish Song on your team" it's once again about if it's acceptable to force players to use a certain poke(s) or archetype. And also if a certain strategy can only be beaten by 1 other strategy then it's once again something that causes and guarantees Rock-Paper-Scissors battles, which is an undesirable trait for a competitive metagame (this is also another matter that should be discussed in full, but maybe not during this discussion).
Now let me explain this TrickChoice situation in yet another perspective. By using choice items, players are taking the "take pokes head on" approach. By using Trick along with that Choice item, the player is saying "take me head on, just like I choose to take everything else head on", nullifying almost all other approaches and oversimplifying the battle to just a competition of who has the right type, speed, and most damage output. If you think that kind of battle is fun that's fine by me, but don't force it upon everyone else. And defending the use of TrickChoice is defending the refusal to deal with other strategies and the potential repercussions of using a choice item.
I can't stress this enough, but diversity is something to strive for in a metagame, especially if you can achieve it by disallowing something that's conceptually uncompetitive for the specific metagame.
Something else that's worth mentioning, there's another general TrickChoice strategy that abuses the fact that not everybody is using 1-move strats or megas. Trick Scarf + Disable, an even more uncompetitive strategy that puts the user at a 2 move slot deficiency against anything else, but completely destroys almost anything that is not choiced, not mega, and doesn't O/2HKO the Trick user. These players are going great lengths and taking huge risks just because it's an instant win vs pretty much anything that doesn't fulfill the criteria above, and note that being required to not match the above criteria is very centralizing and kills creativeness and diversity. Once again this is something that causes a Rock-Paper-Scissors battle if you are using any poke that it beats.
And finally, it seems that you won't consider anything less than Perish Song level of broken as broken or deserving of a ban. I have raised so many different points as to why TrickChoice is deserving of a ban, but you have just set the bar at Perish Song level, which will probably never be met again. But that doesn't mean that there aren't any more broken strategies in this metagame and that all the problems need to be compared with Perish Song level of brokenness, or that my points and arguments are any less valid and any less requiring of action.
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