Yeah no, lets not introduce Greninja. Why would you want that? like really. Just another stupidly powerful threat.
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Sketchmons ORAS - Diggersby and Shell Smash Banned!
- Thread starter Chopin Alkaninoff
- Start date
Greninja is exceptional because it matches Deoxys-A in offensive power on the special side (except for Psychic-Type moves) and can use moves like Bullet Punch, Fire Blast, Thunderbolt and Seed Flare to dodge attempts to cripple it with status.
Protean? You add X random coverage move to Y Pokemon, and it won't have STAB. Greninja hits 50% harder with coverage moves than equivalent strength other Pokemon, while having an amazing Speed tier and an already excellent movepool. 50% is such a huge boost that even Pokemon with substantially more Special Attack than it, like Mega Alakazam, won't hit as hard with identical coverage moves. Other Pokemon adding a coverage move just don't get as much of a payoff from doing so, and this can often mean the difference between "removes 80% of Ferrothorn's health with a Fire coverage move and then dies" vs "OHKOs Ferrothorn, laughs maniacally".
Also on Chansey/Secret Sword
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 408-484 (63.5 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No? That's a clean 2HKO. Hell, without the Life Orb it's
252 SpA Protean Greninja Secret Sword vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 314-372 (48.9 - 57.9%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
almost always a 2HKO. Maxing Chansey's HP doesn't save it: it becomes a 25~% chance of a 2HKO, without Life Orb, while adding the Life Orb back in goes back to a for-sure 2HKO even if Chansey has maxed HP to boot.
Greninja is ridiculous.
... moving on to ideas that aren't fucking terrible, I can recommend defensive Arcanine. It's a great check to Extreme Speed users between Will-O-Wisp and Rocky Helmet, and it doesn't even suffer against Ground-types if you invest in enough speed to launch off a Will-O-Wisp. It forces a lot of switches between its numerous checks and the numerous things it threatens, so I slapped Parting Shot on it to generate momentum and it's been an excellent supporter.
Additional discussion question: What have people been using for hazard control? Are you using traditional users carrying a shiny new move, or are you having more luck slapping Rapid Spin or Defog on other Pokemon?
Additional discussion question: What have people been using for hazard control? Are you using traditional users carrying a shiny new move, or are you having more luck slapping Rapid Spin or Defog on other Pokemon?
Oh, the default set must not have had protean, my mistake.
Yeah, I get the mechanics of protean. The thing is it doesn't have to be coverage that removes a pokemon's previous checks in this meta, and whereas Greninja gets STAB coverage on its sketched move it doesn't really overcome the changes in this meta that make it less favourable. Its speed tier is significantly less potent than it once was with priority everywhere, leaving it far less threatening vs offense and balance, and with far more viable defensive threats in the meta it needs to hit super effectively to have a chance of breaking through most stall mons.
So yeah, Greninja can run extra coverage to overcome a few previous checks. How is that more than Mega Metagross utilising shift gear to both break past both defensive checks and outspeeding any offensive checks while resisting priority? How is this more than Boomburst Porygon-z that has like, -1 defensive checks if running nasty plot or specs? How is it more than shift gear mega heracross that snaps stall in two effortlessly? I'm focusing on defensive answers to these because a lack of defensive checks is what people are saying makes ninja borked. This is all I take issue with really- I don't care about whether Greninja is added to the meta again, I just don't see how thunderbolt greninja is somehow more overwhelming that the other ridiculous shit in the tier.
I think Blaziken would be okay. Offensive teams have a lot of priority to handle it like Talonflame, WS Cloyster, Mega Pinsir (unless it's banned, which it probably should be) and even Prankster Spore with Thundurus/Tornadus-I, Whimsicott and friends. It can mostly be handled defensively with TankChomp (now with recovery!), Lando-T, Cofagrigus and Slowbro, as well as more niche Pokemon like Recover Dragalge and Recover Tentacruel. I don't see too much of a problem with testing it.
Greninja on the other hand would be too much, sadly. While pretty much every Pokemon in this metagame has a way to hurt their counters, the combination of Protean and high speed would be overwhelming to deal with. Imagining Greninja with STAB E-Speed, Blue Flare, Bolt Strike, Knock Off, Sucker Punch and stuff like that seems scary.
No opinion on Deoxys-D.
I like the idea of a move clause limiting to 2 users of the same sketch move that was mentioned a page or two ago btw. That would make it so that there's less spam, but there's less collateral damage to teams that really do need to sketch a move more than once (like VoltTurn teams or teams with multiple defoggers).
On Mega Pinsir, I feel that it's definitely overcentralizing and overpowered in Sketchmons. Having an extra moveslot with E-Speed to fit moves like Stone Edge, Earthquake and Knock Off lowers the number of counters and checks significantly, making it easier to take out things like Physically Defensive Mega Ampharos, Zapdos and other typical checks to it. Its E-Speed is also stupidly strong for how quick it is, OHKOing even resists like Mega Diancie and Thundurus which should be checking this thing. It also has the fastest E-Speed of all the -ate mons, making it near-impossible to take out with other priority. It's not frail either, making even Mega Metagross a shaky check since it needs Rock Slide of all things to get an OHKO on it. It's too hard to check it properly on a team and should go one way or another.
I'd be open to banning Extreme Speed sketches as a whole tbh, since Diggersby, Mega Glalie and Mega Alt are still somewhat problematic with it (especially the former imo). BellySpeed also seems pretty cancerous, but I haven't seen that in action yet. Just banning Mega Pinsir seems like an okay move though.
My most successful has been Volt Switch Starmie on a VoltTurn team though. It gets momentum after spins this way and hits Slowbro while also remaining a Keldeo check. It's a pretty cool spinner.
Greninja on the other hand would be too much, sadly. While pretty much every Pokemon in this metagame has a way to hurt their counters, the combination of Protean and high speed would be overwhelming to deal with. Imagining Greninja with STAB E-Speed, Blue Flare, Bolt Strike, Knock Off, Sucker Punch and stuff like that seems scary.
No opinion on Deoxys-D.
I like the idea of a move clause limiting to 2 users of the same sketch move that was mentioned a page or two ago btw. That would make it so that there's less spam, but there's less collateral damage to teams that really do need to sketch a move more than once (like VoltTurn teams or teams with multiple defoggers).
On Mega Pinsir, I feel that it's definitely overcentralizing and overpowered in Sketchmons. Having an extra moveslot with E-Speed to fit moves like Stone Edge, Earthquake and Knock Off lowers the number of counters and checks significantly, making it easier to take out things like Physically Defensive Mega Ampharos, Zapdos and other typical checks to it. Its E-Speed is also stupidly strong for how quick it is, OHKOing even resists like Mega Diancie and Thundurus which should be checking this thing. It also has the fastest E-Speed of all the -ate mons, making it near-impossible to take out with other priority. It's not frail either, making even Mega Metagross a shaky check since it needs Rock Slide of all things to get an OHKO on it. It's too hard to check it properly on a team and should go one way or another.
I'd be open to banning Extreme Speed sketches as a whole tbh, since Diggersby, Mega Glalie and Mega Alt are still somewhat problematic with it (especially the former imo). BellySpeed also seems pretty cancerous, but I haven't seen that in action yet. Just banning Mega Pinsir seems like an okay move though.
I have a defensive variant of Scrappy Pangoro on a team, but it seems to get overwhelmed by the powerhouses of the meta. Defog Clefable has been solid on another.
My most successful has been Volt Switch Starmie on a VoltTurn team though. It gets momentum after spins this way and hits Slowbro while also remaining a Keldeo check. It's a pretty cool spinner.
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave
Pangoro @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 212 HP / 40 Atk / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Gunk Shot / Parting Shot
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 184 Def / 72 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Thunder Wave
Pangoro @ Leftovers
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 212 HP / 40 Atk / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Gunk Shot / Parting Shot
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
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I wouldn't mind just a limit to 1 sketched move per team really, because its not at all unusual to see multiple shift gears, boombursts and espeeds all on the same team, and I think it would force some more creativeness in the meta. I guess we could try out 2 first though?
Also in terms of hazard control Mega Sableye has been fantastic for me.
Also in terms of hazard control Mega Sableye has been fantastic for me.
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Limiting 1 or 2 Sketch moves is fine. It's better than facing 3-4 Extremespeed team or just 3-4 Geomancy/Shell Smash team (which WILL be used if Extremespeed is banned, so don't ban Espeed pls).
Blaziken seems fine tbh. It's not about "adding anything to the meta or not" (I never used that argument anymore). It's basically "this is probably broken by OU standard but not broken on Sketchmons standard."
On Greninja, don't forget that it also get it's own STAB Extremespeed, Boomburst, V-Create and basically anything to make it more unpredictable. Not to mention it's fast. Don't unban.
Blaziken seems fine tbh. It's not about "adding anything to the meta or not" (I never used that argument anymore). It's basically "this is probably broken by OU standard but not broken on Sketchmons standard."
On Greninja, don't forget that it also get it's own STAB Extremespeed, Boomburst, V-Create and basically anything to make it more unpredictable. Not to mention it's fast. Don't unban.
You didn't list Landorus-I in any of those list, just saying.Ok so I was thinking on stuff that could be unbanned. While at first nothing looked safe to unban, a closer look gave me this results:
Blaziken was banned for its ability to grab Attack and Speed boosts and pass them (which cannot do now) or sweep with them. It also has access to a near-unresisted STAB combo. However, it is initially slow and frail. With so much Shift Gear and strong priority out here, Blaziken might have a hard time at dealing with Mega Pinsir or Cloyster for example. Being weak to Flying- and Water-types really sucks (Azumarill in particular resists its STAB) and more mons get recovery now so they might me potential counters. Not 100% sure on the unban, what do you think?
Again not sure on this one, while it's naturally fast is extremely frail so gets destroyed by Mega Pinsir and Mega Altaria. Serperior beats it too after a boost. Greninja it's so frail it probably wouldn't be able to set up and wreak shit. Still very scary, so I'd want to hear the community's opinion.
This guy has the same problem as those above but more extreme. It's OHKOed by almost every attack so FakeSpeed or Cloyster can wreak it. It desesperately needs its Sash to do anything. However it is ridiculously powerful, fast, and versatile coverage-wise, so I'm a bit afraid unbanning it could centralize the meta around priority.
A more safe unban than it's hyper offensive brother, Deoxys-D may not hold up against the ridiculous powerhouses of the metagame (and Gothorita if it lacks Taunt). However it still has enough bulk to set up a ton of hazards, so it might be too centralizing.
Same as Blaziken but more ridiculous.
For obvious reasons:
Aegislash
Arceus (all formes)
Darkrai
Deoxys
Deoxys-S
Dialga
Genesect
Gengar (Mega)
Giratina
Giratina-O
Groudon
Groudon (Primal)
Ho-Oh
Kangaskhan (Mega)
Kyogre
Kyogre (Primal)
Kyurem-W
Lugia
Lucario (Mega)
Mawile (Mega)
Mewtwo (base and both megas)
Palkia
Rayquaza
Rayquaza (Mega)
Salamence (Mega)
Shaymin-Sky
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zekrom
Well here is my arguement on why the ninja is broken. And if you still believe its unbannable after reading this, frankly your stupid and shouldn't be battling competitively anyways.
Its simply uncounterable. <cue shocked gasps> Yes folk, the Star Spangled Ninja is uncounterable by OU standards. It can OHKO or 2HKO the entire meta.
Here are a couple scenarios.
Your Sylveon just BB a poor pokemon, and looking great. A ninja comes in, and your like "pssh, 130 SpD bit... " Bop! Gunk Shot OHKO'es. You send a Steel thinking meh. Itcant do shit to me, Bop! Blue flaring death. Now a third of your team died trying to figure out what set it runs.
And that's just it. Trying to learn what set it runs means losing a lot of teammates.
Scenario.2
Chansey be wallin shit, and The ninja comes in. Chansey laughs, then gets fuked by a below the belt hit. You send in MegaPinsir, confident the ninja is ded. But ninja's don't solely really on attacks. It pops a King's Shield, halves your attack and turns your saviour into a liability. Try to set up, Death by beam. Switch out, risk something dying or ninja can just U-Turn out, rinse and repeat. And assuming rocks are on the field, that MegaPinsir is really a liability.
So guys, as you can see, ninja is broken in standard and broken even more in Sketchmons.
So can stop NinjaTalk and talk about something else?
Edit: Didn't realise we stooped. My phone showed the new discussion after I posted this, my bad. But still, my post still stands.
Its simply uncounterable. <cue shocked gasps> Yes folk, the Star Spangled Ninja is uncounterable by OU standards. It can OHKO or 2HKO the entire meta.
Here are a couple scenarios.
Your Sylveon just BB a poor pokemon, and looking great. A ninja comes in, and your like "pssh, 130 SpD bit... " Bop! Gunk Shot OHKO'es. You send a Steel thinking meh. Itcant do shit to me, Bop! Blue flaring death. Now a third of your team died trying to figure out what set it runs.
And that's just it. Trying to learn what set it runs means losing a lot of teammates.
Scenario.2
Chansey be wallin shit, and The ninja comes in. Chansey laughs, then gets fuked by a below the belt hit. You send in MegaPinsir, confident the ninja is ded. But ninja's don't solely really on attacks. It pops a King's Shield, halves your attack and turns your saviour into a liability. Try to set up, Death by beam. Switch out, risk something dying or ninja can just U-Turn out, rinse and repeat. And assuming rocks are on the field, that MegaPinsir is really a liability.
So guys, as you can see, ninja is broken in standard and broken even more in Sketchmons.
So can stop NinjaTalk and talk about something else?
Edit: Didn't realise we stooped. My phone showed the new discussion after I posted this, my bad. But still, my post still stands.
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sin(pi)
lucky n bad
For everyone saying KFC is handled by priority - you can give it espeed as its sketch move.
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Extreme Speed vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 239-282 (74.9 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it can't OHKO talon)
It's not the strongest thing in the world (barely 2HKOs Mega Pinsir), but yeah.
And can we not unban greninja? It chooses what walls it, now with even more unpredictability™.
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Extreme Speed vs. 88 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 239-282 (74.9 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (it can't OHKO talon)
It's not the strongest thing in the world (barely 2HKOs Mega Pinsir), but yeah.
And can we not unban greninja? It chooses what walls it, now with even more unpredictability™.
It actually can with Life Orb:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Extreme Speed vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 311-367 (95.1 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
But yeah, E-Speed probably pushes it over the edge. If we ever do decided to ban that move though, we should give Blaziken another chance.
I think unbanning Landorus-I and Blaziken would add a new dynamic to the meta. Maybe Deoxys Def can be unbanned. The power creep is can handle reliable recovery DD, and stall needs all the support it can get.
EDIT: It loses a lot of coverage and utility inusing Espeed. Its hard walled by bully ghosts, so It might want something to smack certain weaknesses like Bolt Strike and Gunk Shot. And you can always just ban Speed Boost =3
Anyways, here is a set I've been swept by and I'm comfident its great.
Suicune @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Ability: Pressure
IVs: 0 Atk
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Quiver Dance
EDIT: It loses a lot of coverage and utility inusing Espeed. Its hard walled by bully ghosts, so It might want something to smack certain weaknesses like Bolt Strike and Gunk Shot. And you can always just ban Speed Boost =3
Anyways, here is a set I've been swept by and I'm comfident its great.
Suicune @ Leftovers
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Ability: Pressure
IVs: 0 Atk
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Quiver Dance
Must've skipped out from the Ubers list, should go to "Stuff screaming do not unban". EDIT: We can give it a chance if you want.
My opinions:
Unban Blaziken.
I'm not sure on Mega Blaziken and nobody commented about it, just saying.
Unban Deoxys-D, 160/160 defenses are cool until you realize it has garbage HP. It's nothing too special on this meta.
Do not unban Greninja. It was my idea I know, but if it's broken it's broken.
Do not unban Deoxys-A. Nobody commented on it either but it's clear it'll wreak too much shit.
Maybe have a suspect ladder for a week to see if these Ubers are broken, then vote to unban them.
Mega Blaziken shouldn't be much different than regular really. It's weaker than Life Orb Blaziken, but at the same time it has more longevity with +10 defenses, lack of reliance on Life Orb and marginally higher speed. If Blaziken gets unbanned, trying Mega Blaze too wouldn't be a bad idea.
Deoxys-S/A/N would definitely be broken with their speed and unpredictability. Similar case to Greninja but without Protean and with an insane amount of speed.
Lando-I shouldn't be too bad. Some of the other wallbrakers and sweepers are pretty much on par with it now anyway. Its speed is low enough to check offensively and it lacks good priority to compensate. Quiver Dance would probably be the most threatening and that doesn't seem too bad.
Deoxys-S/A/N would definitely be broken with their speed and unpredictability. Similar case to Greninja but without Protean and with an insane amount of speed.
Lando-I shouldn't be too bad. Some of the other wallbrakers and sweepers are pretty much on par with it now anyway. Its speed is low enough to check offensively and it lacks good priority to compensate. Quiver Dance would probably be the most threatening and that doesn't seem too bad.
This isn't how the suspect philosophy is supposed to be followed. We suspect to keep the metagame healthy. that is the current goal, something can be unhealthy if it's broken, centralising, puts the game in the hands of rng, does its job too well for the metagame to handle or is uncompetitive. We are looking at multiple pokemon who are suspect worthy in the current metagame, multiple. We are also looking at a possible ban on insane set up and strong priority, as even tho they are a move and their effectiveness depends on the user they are broken in and itself and does not benefit the metagame more than it harms it.
When you discuss unbanning Greninja, Landorus-I, Blaziken ect you are shitposting. And you might think this isn't fair and your opinion doesn't matter, but if you believe these pokemon, Greninja, Landorus-I and Blaziken (These are the only borderline unbans), you are unexperienced. And that isn't something awful, but it should be taken to heart. If you want to know why these mons, and any other mons, were banned, read yourself up on all the suspect threads in the recent years, they perfectly lay it out for you.
I've followed every Omotm for six months now, dearly. I've peaked number one and held it for over a week on three out of the six omotm. Whatever your opinion on people, and me, are when it comes to the topic of banning you should tread lightly. It's very easy to misunderstand, and you should really listen to experienced players, if their opinion is valuable is for you to decide, but only after you actually know their reasoning. The reason any experienced player will tell you why Greninja, Landours-I and Blaziken is the following.
Greninja
What makes Greninja different from any other uncounterable pokemon is a couple of things. First of all, when we say uncounterable it's not like Hydreigon uncounterable, where your moves are barely going to 2HKO. It's still an uncounterable pokemon, but it's not as feared since you might be able to switch around with it more lightly. Then you have the Hoopa-U(Greninja) type of uncounterable, where your moves aren't going to barely top 50, or 2HKO after SRs. No, your moves are going to cleanly do a nice 70%, regardless of the pokemon switching in. But this also means when versing offence a pokemon like Hydreigon can be switched around on and you can live one hit and then force it out, but in the case of Hoopa(Greninja) that attack is just going to OHKO, making your opponent, bar prediction, sack one pokemon each time Hoopa is sent out. This can be mitigated by a slow speed, poor typing or poor defences. But in the case of Greninja its speed will allow it to outspeed the majority of the viable/popular metagame with ease and OHKO mons left and right. And when you give Greninja a sketchmove this just goes to all fucking hell, doesn't matter what move it is, Greninja gives it stabs and breaks the metagame.
Landorus-I
Landorus-I was banned for making the metagame centralised around itself, its presence made teams forced to run obscure checks and shit like Cresselia or Mega Latias. Having the ability to 2HKO basically any viable mon, and have to excellent set up moves in Rock Polish and Calm mind, which again dealt with two playstyles in itself, whilst regular All-out-attack maimed balance. It was also one of those mons that did 70% to basically any relevant mon, same as Greninja. In Sketchmons it will get access to Oblivion wing, quiver dance, Hurricane(Sheer force boosted). Basically anything that troubled it before wont be able to touch it now.
Blaziken
At this point of the post I'm pretty exhausted. Blaziken destroys all playstyles, like the above. It has viable and excellent ways to beat Espeed spam, in Espeed of its own, King Shield and Chilan berry. It also has a nice typing that allows it to occasionally set up a substitute. Blaziken also has this snowball effect with it, it's incredible hard to stop once it gets going, once it sets up an SD its pretty much over. It's mere presence makes slowbro so insanely common because of how inconsistent most of its answers are, being able to hit on both sides of the spectrum hard with modest/adamant doesn't help either
TLDR: Too many bannable moves/pokemon in the tier already, we're not going to unban more broken mons now EDIT: This doesnt mean we should exclude unbans, it's should just be really fucking low on the priorities list
aesf people have basically agreed on the Mega Pinsir ban, it's stupidly good and centralising. Can we ban it and move onto the next issue, in this order: Gothirita Quick ban, Thundurus suspect, espeed ban(not restricted, ban) and shell smash/geomancy restriction.
When you discuss unbanning Greninja, Landorus-I, Blaziken ect you are shitposting. And you might think this isn't fair and your opinion doesn't matter, but if you believe these pokemon, Greninja, Landorus-I and Blaziken (These are the only borderline unbans), you are unexperienced. And that isn't something awful, but it should be taken to heart. If you want to know why these mons, and any other mons, were banned, read yourself up on all the suspect threads in the recent years, they perfectly lay it out for you.
I've followed every Omotm for six months now, dearly. I've peaked number one and held it for over a week on three out of the six omotm. Whatever your opinion on people, and me, are when it comes to the topic of banning you should tread lightly. It's very easy to misunderstand, and you should really listen to experienced players, if their opinion is valuable is for you to decide, but only after you actually know their reasoning. The reason any experienced player will tell you why Greninja, Landours-I and Blaziken is the following.
Greninja
What makes Greninja different from any other uncounterable pokemon is a couple of things. First of all, when we say uncounterable it's not like Hydreigon uncounterable, where your moves are barely going to 2HKO. It's still an uncounterable pokemon, but it's not as feared since you might be able to switch around with it more lightly. Then you have the Hoopa-U(Greninja) type of uncounterable, where your moves aren't going to barely top 50, or 2HKO after SRs. No, your moves are going to cleanly do a nice 70%, regardless of the pokemon switching in. But this also means when versing offence a pokemon like Hydreigon can be switched around on and you can live one hit and then force it out, but in the case of Hoopa(Greninja) that attack is just going to OHKO, making your opponent, bar prediction, sack one pokemon each time Hoopa is sent out. This can be mitigated by a slow speed, poor typing or poor defences. But in the case of Greninja its speed will allow it to outspeed the majority of the viable/popular metagame with ease and OHKO mons left and right. And when you give Greninja a sketchmove this just goes to all fucking hell, doesn't matter what move it is, Greninja gives it stabs and breaks the metagame.
Landorus-I
Landorus-I was banned for making the metagame centralised around itself, its presence made teams forced to run obscure checks and shit like Cresselia or Mega Latias. Having the ability to 2HKO basically any viable mon, and have to excellent set up moves in Rock Polish and Calm mind, which again dealt with two playstyles in itself, whilst regular All-out-attack maimed balance. It was also one of those mons that did 70% to basically any relevant mon, same as Greninja. In Sketchmons it will get access to Oblivion wing, quiver dance, Hurricane(Sheer force boosted). Basically anything that troubled it before wont be able to touch it now.
Blaziken
At this point of the post I'm pretty exhausted. Blaziken destroys all playstyles, like the above. It has viable and excellent ways to beat Espeed spam, in Espeed of its own, King Shield and Chilan berry. It also has a nice typing that allows it to occasionally set up a substitute. Blaziken also has this snowball effect with it, it's incredible hard to stop once it gets going, once it sets up an SD its pretty much over. It's mere presence makes slowbro so insanely common because of how inconsistent most of its answers are, being able to hit on both sides of the spectrum hard with modest/adamant doesn't help either
TLDR: Too many bannable moves/pokemon in the tier already, we're not going to unban more broken mons now EDIT: This doesnt mean we should exclude unbans, it's should just be really fucking low on the priorities list
aesf people have basically agreed on the Mega Pinsir ban, it's stupidly good and centralising. Can we ban it and move onto the next issue, in this order: Gothirita Quick ban, Thundurus suspect, espeed ban(not restricted, ban) and shell smash/geomancy restriction.
AllJokesAside you're not going to get anyone listening to you if you're basically insulting people. Just tone it down a little.
That being said, I don't like the idea of unbans; they add almost nothing to the metagame besides a potentially broken threat that could just end up being a massive hassle to deal with. It's simply not the best course of action.
We haven't "basically" agreed on Mega Pinsir ban; half the people don't want it to ban, and xJownage brought up a potential espeed ban, which is another possibility in the near future, potentially negating the need for a mega pinsir ban.
Another thing I want to say is that it's pretty obvious that gothorita does the same thing as goth so I'll just go ahead and Ban shadow tag and Free Gothitelle, although rip wobbuffet :(
So, as for suspects, post your thoughts (if you want, that is):
Extreme Speed, Mega Pinsir, Move Clause, Neither, or Both
EDIT: Added move clause as an option per requests
That being said, I don't like the idea of unbans; they add almost nothing to the metagame besides a potentially broken threat that could just end up being a massive hassle to deal with. It's simply not the best course of action.
We haven't "basically" agreed on Mega Pinsir ban; half the people don't want it to ban, and xJownage brought up a potential espeed ban, which is another possibility in the near future, potentially negating the need for a mega pinsir ban.
Another thing I want to say is that it's pretty obvious that gothorita does the same thing as goth so I'll just go ahead and Ban shadow tag and Free Gothitelle, although rip wobbuffet :(
So, as for suspects, post your thoughts (if you want, that is):
Extreme Speed, Mega Pinsir, Move Clause, Neither, or Both
EDIT: Added move clause as an option per requests
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Greninja doesn't just remove checks, it vaporizes supposed counters, and yes that includes relying on priority to counter it is shaky -especially since, again, it just switches out of priority abusers and comes back in later to murder things. Nor is "Thunderbolt Greninja" the only build or the primary point.
Boomburst Porygon-Z has literally nothing it can do to Specially Defensive Tyranitar, which is a pretty cool Pokemon and gets recovery if it wants is, and is a stallmon.
Shift Gear Mega Heracross stops here: 252+ Atk Mega Heracross Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.5 - 53.4%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Also it eats a Mega slot and dies instantly to Talonflame.
Mega Metagross is still weak to Sucker Punch, if it's not running Bullet Punch it hates priority Will O Wisp (And even if it is it still hates it), and it, again, eats a Mega slot. It also has to take sub-optimal moveslots if it wants any kind of answer to Shedinja, and it can't push through Roar-equipped Mega Aggron (+1 Hammer Arm isn't a 2HKO against Physically Defensive Mega Aggron), which, again, can carry recovery, and can Roar it out.
Please don't claim Pokemon "have no counters" baselessly.
Yay Shadow Tag is gone!
I want to see Mega Pinsir gone. I haven't had all that much trouble from Extreme Speed per se, just from Mega Pinsir, and I'm not convinced it would stop being broken just because Extreme Speed went away.
I'll probably do a more detailed post tomorrow.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Extreme Speed is certainly strong, and a big thing to prepare for. It's also annoying that there are three different types it can be, and that it's simple enough to trap or lure steels that are often the go-to counters. I nearly lost today to a banded Espeed Aurorus, which caught me off-guard considering that most run boomburst. However, it is beatable, and I wouldn't say that preparing for espeed pinsir takes a huge amount more preparation in this meta than something like Zard Y in OU.
The only ban I can get behind is a 1 espeed per team restriction. LO Diggers and probably other stuff I haven't seen yet are just as good, and Mega Pinsir isn't the problem itself. Restricting espeed to 1 per team is a lot easier, doesn't restrict anything, etc. Banning Pinsir alone is just dumb, because M-alt and Diggers can spamspeed just as much. If anything should get banned, it is extreme speed as a whole because it's that nasty 2x priority that is the problem. However, this unban would probably help a lot with espeed if it happens.
Deoxys-Defense definitely should (be the only) drop for now imo. What exactly is there even to sketch for it? It already has everything it wants as a fat ass. And everything else in this meta is insanely powerful, so it's not like it'll wall everything like it can do in standard to some teams. It'd just help as a Pinsir check, because 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-D: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and can therefore just thunderwave it and stall for recovers or just spam recover as pressure decimates the PP. It even gets taunt if you want it to deal with Gothorita assuming it's not banned. However, it won't be broken because it is complete taunt bait, and loses to most powerful darks, set up sweepers, etc.
PS;
EDIT: Voting for Move Clause now that it's an option.
Deoxys-Defense definitely should (be the only) drop for now imo. What exactly is there even to sketch for it? It already has everything it wants as a fat ass. And everything else in this meta is insanely powerful, so it's not like it'll wall everything like it can do in standard to some teams. It'd just help as a Pinsir check, because 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Deoxys-D: 120-142 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and can therefore just thunderwave it and stall for recovers or just spam recover as pressure decimates the PP. It even gets taunt if you want it to deal with Gothorita assuming it's not banned. However, it won't be broken because it is complete taunt bait, and loses to most powerful darks, set up sweepers, etc.
PS;
I'm sorry AllJokesAside , but what people are you referring to? I know Chopin Alkaninoff who is another big sketchmons player strongly disagrees with it like I do, and most of the other people who I talk to do as well. Don't blanket vote for everybody please.
EDIT: Voting for Move Clause now that it's an option.
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Oh well, I guess I'll have to wait a bit longer for a Fairy-typed Greninja.
aesf, I suggest you please consider Sketch move Clause as a solution, which limits no more than 1 of the same Sketch move in a team, as I suggested before. I think it's the best way to control spam, rather than banning Extremespeed/Shell Smash/Geomancy/etc. I remember someone told me that Smogon's philosophy enforces as few bans as possible, which is why I think this is the best solution. I don't want this to turn into continuous bans a la old STABmons, which bans a million of things. Stall teams are not nerfed by this clause, because there are like, 5 different Recover clones that you can use, so you don't have to worry about that.
Edit: also ban King's Rock and Razor Fang pls. I don't want to lose because of getting flinched to death.
Edit 2: Added Move Clause, so I no longer vote Neither to be banned.
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