-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??
- Thread starter Thorns
- Start date
Sometimes I forget that LCS players are a bunch of young, relatively immature kids (excepting Dyrus and Lemon who are like 40 lol). Then something like this bullshit with Jatt's tweet happens. The man is literally doing his job as an analyst, and the tweet in question was absurdly mild. Grow the fuck up.
Also Jatt needs to grow a spine and not write a 5 page twitlonger apology whenever someone disagrees with him.
Also Jatt needs to grow a spine and not write a 5 page twitlonger apology whenever someone disagrees with him.
Share your pick'em group picks so I can shamelessly get the icons.
You will rise 2 Divisions
1,552
MMR
The Average MMR for this league is 1,388.
My advice has worked so far. Hopefully I get gold 2 tonight after playing for 4 days. Xin Zhao and Annie were the only champs I played.
1,552
MMR
The Average MMR for this league is 1,388.
My advice has worked so far. Hopefully I get gold 2 tonight after playing for 4 days. Xin Zhao and Annie were the only champs I played.
Last edited:
Honestly I don't get why people think NA is so bad.
The international scene has been a tougher and tougher competition for years now, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 2/3 NA teams advance through groups.
I don't see any making the finals, but outside of Korea I really think that NA has a good shot to beat anyone.
And yes I'm well aware that I sound like a homer but frankly I despise CLG and don't like TSM, I just think that the region has improved a LOT over the last year and I'd be surprised if the NA teams are pushovers like a lot of people seem to think.
The international scene has been a tougher and tougher competition for years now, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 2/3 NA teams advance through groups.
I don't see any making the finals, but outside of Korea I really think that NA has a good shot to beat anyone.
And yes I'm well aware that I sound like a homer but frankly I despise CLG and don't like TSM, I just think that the region has improved a LOT over the last year and I'd be surprised if the NA teams are pushovers like a lot of people seem to think.
i think if CLG don't move on they are underperforming. people say FW are good but TSM beat them fairly handily at IEM and they weren't even dominant in their own region after that, so the only team that should actually be a threat is KOO, and KOO is probably only the third best from korea.
i don't think C9 will win more than 1 game given how good their group is. ahq dumpstered both FNC and TSM at MSI, and iG has a top 5 midlaner and one of the best junglers in the world. everyone says FNC is doing incredibly well too. i think there's very little hope left for them, given that top will almost assuredly get run over by huni/zzitai, and C9's early game jungling is honestly pretty poor. even when they won NA regionals they were losing the early game almost every game. incarnati0n and sneaky are both really good, but honestly i don't think they're good enough to carry against this competition.
TSM looked pretty bad in semis/finals of NA playoffs (even when they beat liquid), but i don't think KT is far enough ahead of the west to be considered a lock. i think it was pretty clear that SKT is miles better than the rest of korea, so there is a chance that TSM makes it out, though i expect them to get pummeled by LGD. bjerg can probably run over xpeke in his current state because honestly xpeke played super poorly in EU playoffs, but i don't know if it's enough to snowball vs OG given that the rest of his team is worse at every position except debatably support (and mithy has performed way better than lustboy over the last split).
i'd be surprised if more than CLG made it out of groups, but i think TSM as the 2 seed is within the realm of possibility.
i don't think C9 will win more than 1 game given how good their group is. ahq dumpstered both FNC and TSM at MSI, and iG has a top 5 midlaner and one of the best junglers in the world. everyone says FNC is doing incredibly well too. i think there's very little hope left for them, given that top will almost assuredly get run over by huni/zzitai, and C9's early game jungling is honestly pretty poor. even when they won NA regionals they were losing the early game almost every game. incarnati0n and sneaky are both really good, but honestly i don't think they're good enough to carry against this competition.
TSM looked pretty bad in semis/finals of NA playoffs (even when they beat liquid), but i don't think KT is far enough ahead of the west to be considered a lock. i think it was pretty clear that SKT is miles better than the rest of korea, so there is a chance that TSM makes it out, though i expect them to get pummeled by LGD. bjerg can probably run over xpeke in his current state because honestly xpeke played super poorly in EU playoffs, but i don't know if it's enough to snowball vs OG given that the rest of his team is worse at every position except debatably support (and mithy has performed way better than lustboy over the last split).
i'd be surprised if more than CLG made it out of groups, but i think TSM as the 2 seed is within the realm of possibility.
UncleSam i'd say it's because despite CLG's dominating 3-0 over TSM, the wins themselves were actually very sloppy (especially game 1) and we have yet to see how well CLG performs against a team that can competently draft. we've also yet to see CLG play against a team with a strong carry top laner, since Impact was relegated to tanks during the TiP set. worlds has strong top laners in spades - smeb, ssumday, marin, etc. to a certain degree, the same applies to bot lane competition in NA.
TSM has as strong of a staff as any team outside of Korea, to say that they 'don't draft competently' is just plain wrong. Additionally, 'sloppy' is just another word for 'close'.
Maybe CLG will play poorly and lose games they shouldn't. But I haven't seen any indication in their actual play (ie outside of history) that that will happen.
C9 definitely has a tough road and is unlikely to get through groups. The other two it seems to me have very strong chances, especially as neither has to deal with SKT, the only team that I think truly outclasses either.
Maybe CLG will play poorly and lose games they shouldn't. But I haven't seen any indication in their actual play (ie outside of history) that that will happen.
C9 definitely has a tough road and is unlikely to get through groups. The other two it seems to me have very strong chances, especially as neither has to deal with SKT, the only team that I think truly outclasses either.
TSM's drafting may have improved since MSG, but you can't look at their pick/ban phase during the LCS finals and say they did a good job. They had zero adaptation over 3 games and allowed CLG to play exactly what they wanted.
I wouldn't say the games were close at all, either. CLG should have dominated all three games after 15 minutes, but had pretty poor map movements at times and gave up towers/dragons for free. Teamfighting in games 1 and 2 were sloppy, and some of Xmithie's Gragas ults were god-awful in the first game. He also never bought a Sightstone the entire series (on Gragas, Gragas, Ekko iirc) and the rest of CLG didn't pick up the slack, so their vision control was poor. It never felt like TSM outplayed CLG when they took small leads during the series, it felt like CLG was playing poorly and handing them free advantages.
Maybe I'm being nitpicky. Do I think CLG is going to do well in their group? Yeah, of course - I'm expecting they'll finish 2nd, with a possible shot at 1st if they're as good as other teams say they are in scrims, and if KOO can't adapt to 5.18.
I wouldn't say the games were close at all, either. CLG should have dominated all three games after 15 minutes, but had pretty poor map movements at times and gave up towers/dragons for free. Teamfighting in games 1 and 2 were sloppy, and some of Xmithie's Gragas ults were god-awful in the first game. He also never bought a Sightstone the entire series (on Gragas, Gragas, Ekko iirc) and the rest of CLG didn't pick up the slack, so their vision control was poor. It never felt like TSM outplayed CLG when they took small leads during the series, it felt like CLG was playing poorly and handing them free advantages.
Maybe I'm being nitpicky. Do I think CLG is going to do well in their group? Yeah, of course - I'm expecting they'll finish 2nd, with a possible shot at 1st if they're as good as other teams say they are in scrims, and if KOO can't adapt to 5.18.
Well what I didn't realize previously was that they will be playing with a new jungler. While not a huge deal, that could be a cause for concern nonetheless.
Also I don't think that the obsession with sight stone is really merited. Upgraded trinket is so much better and cheaper and sight stone is such a waste of a slot in most cases that could simply go towards a permanent pink ward + sight stone that only costs 250 gold in the trinket slot.
Also I don't think that the obsession with sight stone is really merited. Upgraded trinket is so much better and cheaper and sight stone is such a waste of a slot in most cases that could simply go towards a permanent pink ward + sight stone that only costs 250 gold in the trinket slot.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
Is that why none of clg upgraded their yellow trinket except zion? Like Jebus said no one picked up the slack in putting down or buying wards in lieu of the sightstone, so CLG lost vision on the map and it was patchy overall throughout the series and you could clearly see the results of it because TSM would immediately find CLG in a bad place and take what they can.
Last edited:
I've seen that video before LizardMan and unfortunately it's not really accurate. Each tier has slightly improved attitudes on average, but the difference isn't really noticeable except over a large number of games. Most of the difference between tiers lies in skill level of the players themselves (which it is much easier to see the difference between tiers in).
Attitude plays a big role in the long run, but game-to-game won't make that much of a difference. Same goes for having a large champion pool (particularly at multiple positions).
Attitude plays a big role in the long run, but game-to-game won't make that much of a difference. Same goes for having a large champion pool (particularly at multiple positions).
Sightstone does give you better vision than an upgraded trinket plus affords you the opportunity to use the sweeper trinket to deny enemy vision, without giving up yours, which is nice in a world without Oracle's and also FUCK VAYNE. Related note, I think SS is underrated in general but maybe it's just me never quite fully understanding the modern metagame. Sightstone is far superior a gold item than ye ol' Philo Stones and Hearts of Gold (and even more so our newer support-oriented ones which are worse), I'd love to see more solo laners grab one. Top's usually on an island anyway and the increased warding power on SS means not getting lane ganked all day. Mid can cover both jungle entrances and is in the best position to deep ward the enemy jungle outside of rote counterjungling.
I think expecting a solo laner to spend 800 gold on 150 health is just a bad idea when you could be spending 75 and 100 gold on a green and pink ward during your first back and using your trinket smartly. Being 800 gold behind on completing Triforce or Deathcap is a big deal and can lead to a period of the game where you are completely inferior to your lane counterpart. I think it's especially bad on a top laner since there's only two entrances to your lane and one of them should be covered for the most part by your jungler and mid lane. You can just upgrade yellow trinket at level 9 and it provides you with plenty of vision without slowing down your build, and since top lane is an island it's arguably the most effected by falling behind in your lane matchup, no reason to deliberately put yourself further behind.
Not that I'm against more vision, I just think there's smarter ways to go about it for solo laners.
Not that I'm against more vision, I just think there's smarter ways to go about it for solo laners.
I really don't think that SS on a mid or top laner is good at all lol. The 150 Health is NOT worth it to set you behind almost a glacial shroud, or completing merc treads, or other 700-900 items. On top lane you don't really need to ward as much as say bot and mid, so you don't really need any extra vision bar the trinket and a green ward or two. Mid definitely does not want to delay their power spike at all. A ton of matchups nowadays come down to who is more aggressive than whom, such as Zed v Yasuo, Azir v Fizz, Ahri v Fizz, Yasuo v Ahri, among other wishy washy matchups I'm forgetting. A good example of what happens in mid lane when you don't invest in any combat stats are Tear stackers. Champions like Karthus, some Kassadin builds, Anivia, Ez mid (idk if anyone still builds), Varus, Veigar, Cassiopeia, and Jayce all are not strong at all during early - mid game (bar some cassiopeia and depends on veigar matchup). It's really hard for you to all in someone with just a Doran's ring as your combat item after you shovel out 700 gold for a tear. Mid lane is all about early pressure and maintaining lane dominance in order to be able to roam. Investing in an 800 gold item that is really unnecessary is not efficient of your gold lol. Especially since the only places you can "ward" are your side lane bushes and river (no sane mid laner is just going to walk into the enemy jungle and place deep wards alone. Supports can do it because they aren't really "needed" as much as a mid or top laner. They don't really lose out on a wave crashing against a tower since they don't farm anyway, and most are tanky, allowing them to get out easily and safely).
the other point (besides the power spikes for solo laners, which is very important in a 1v1) is that laners nowadays don't roam nearly as much as junglers/supports so you're not getting as much mileage out of that extra sightstone
usually two sightstones is enough to maintain good vision control, and any additional benefits from sticking another one on your laners is outweighed by the fact that they're going to get dumpstered in the 1v1
usually two sightstones is enough to maintain good vision control, and any additional benefits from sticking another one on your laners is outweighed by the fact that they're going to get dumpstered in the 1v1
Winning the vision game is supposedly so important but apparently it's just a... whatever the word I'm looking for is. Mirage? Something like that.
Not to say you need four Sightstones on a team, there's a point where more vision's just going to get increasingly redundant, but still. Champion matchup and jungle influence dictates the flow of lanes far more than early itemization choices or even runes/masteries. Upgrading Ruby Crystal to SS really only costs you 400g in stats (admittedly, the full 800g delays a future power spike) and it pays for itself quickly enough to see the benefit sooner than later, to say nothing of the nebulous value of the actual vision advantage you procure. One catch pays for it and avoiding being caught has a similar value on the opposite side of things, yes?
Is 250g to upgrade trinket, for a commensurate amount of vision, just the sweet spot where you're getting "enough" vision without spending "too much" gold? What about the value of not having the red or blue trinkets? The fact you have to wait until Level 9 before your vision control isn't ass? I've never seen anyone mash Rejuv Beads solely to win lane (except in the BRNA tournament) and supports still rush Sightstone in favor of lane-dominance items like Giant's Belt, so obviously there's some give and take itemizing for lane versus lategame. Hell, Ignite vs Teleport. And Sightstone isn't even the same thing as Tear, which people deride for the similar delay in power spiking yet still sees spot usage where appropriate. Tear gives literally (almost) zero benefit on purchase, where Sightstone is still giving the HP of its Ruby Crystal and immediate max vision control. I'm not saying solo laners everywhere should be buying Sightstone, I'm saying on paper it looks like something that people should at least try. The propensity to dismiss it merely on the grounds of "lol ull get dumpstered in lane" is a short-sighted viewpoint that has led to it being vastly underexplored competitively.
On a related note, how quickly do you replace a destroyed Vision Ward? Do you stick it back in the same spot because it's more likely to see action or further back so it's less likely to be destroyed as quickly again?
Not to say you need four Sightstones on a team, there's a point where more vision's just going to get increasingly redundant, but still. Champion matchup and jungle influence dictates the flow of lanes far more than early itemization choices or even runes/masteries. Upgrading Ruby Crystal to SS really only costs you 400g in stats (admittedly, the full 800g delays a future power spike) and it pays for itself quickly enough to see the benefit sooner than later, to say nothing of the nebulous value of the actual vision advantage you procure. One catch pays for it and avoiding being caught has a similar value on the opposite side of things, yes?
Is 250g to upgrade trinket, for a commensurate amount of vision, just the sweet spot where you're getting "enough" vision without spending "too much" gold? What about the value of not having the red or blue trinkets? The fact you have to wait until Level 9 before your vision control isn't ass? I've never seen anyone mash Rejuv Beads solely to win lane (except in the BRNA tournament) and supports still rush Sightstone in favor of lane-dominance items like Giant's Belt, so obviously there's some give and take itemizing for lane versus lategame. Hell, Ignite vs Teleport. And Sightstone isn't even the same thing as Tear, which people deride for the similar delay in power spiking yet still sees spot usage where appropriate. Tear gives literally (almost) zero benefit on purchase, where Sightstone is still giving the HP of its Ruby Crystal and immediate max vision control. I'm not saying solo laners everywhere should be buying Sightstone, I'm saying on paper it looks like something that people should at least try. The propensity to dismiss it merely on the grounds of "lol ull get dumpstered in lane" is a short-sighted viewpoint that has led to it being vastly underexplored competitively.
On a related note, how quickly do you replace a destroyed Vision Ward? Do you stick it back in the same spot because it's more likely to see action or further back so it's less likely to be destroyed as quickly again?
B R A I N L I C K E R
Banned deucer.
MrE i'm surprised that you're advocating the use of more wards, I didn't think wards were that popular in Bronze 4
Just upgrade trinket it's the same thing as Sightstone for 550 less gold. Also the upgraded sweepers are horrible just buy Pinks they are significantly stronger in every way and cheaper than upgrading Sweepers (which you need to do to get any remote use out of it). Remember that the Wraiths smite buff is better than Sweepers in every way possible so I never understand why any jungler except for Fiddlesticks wants a Sweeper.
Pink wards should be placed when you need control around an objective. Generically placing them without any plan in mind in the immediate future is a waste of gold. You should plan on them being destroyed after the objective is taken and just buy another one pre-preemptively so that you can place it at the next objective. Basically, Pink wards are 100 gold permanent sweepers that you buy.
Pink wards should be placed when you need control around an objective. Generically placing them without any plan in mind in the immediate future is a waste of gold. You should plan on them being destroyed after the objective is taken and just buy another one pre-preemptively so that you can place it at the next objective. Basically, Pink wards are 100 gold permanent sweepers that you buy.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
"Jungle influence controls the lane more than early items"
"Expect your pinks to be destroyed... permanent sweepers for 100 gold"
SEND. HELP.
"Expect your pinks to be destroyed... permanent sweepers for 100 gold"
SEND. HELP.