ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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Kyu-W needs to be ranked higher. Are we seriously ranking the likes of Bronzong and Arceus-Dragon in B while this monster is sitting in C+?
Kyu-W has perfect synergy with Primal Groudon, the best pokemon in the tier, as everything that resists ice is completely and utterly fucked by it. P.Don also provides SR and Paralysis support while dealing with Xerneas and Ho-oh who think they can take advantage of a choice-locked Kyu-W.
Kyu-W on the other hand destroys just about everything P.Don hates including but not limited to Groundceus, defensive Yveltal and Lugia.
Chansey, the only pokemon who can attempt to wall it, is unviable as long as Mega Gengar is a thing (another great partner for Kyu-W, by the way, but I'm not emphatizing this as much as P.Don because it's a mega and not nearly as splashable) and Blissey who runs Shed Shell can't take two Focus Blasts so it's not a surefire counter.
Kyu-W also deals with the occasional Sturdy Skarmory and Forretress leads nonsense, is a very viable Sleep Absorber with its Scarf set if it's running Sleep Talk so it can check Darkrai if needed, threatens almost every single hazard setter/defogger/spinner (Ferrothorn, Exca, Tentacruel, Giratina, several Arceus formes, Bronzong, Klefki and more).
If you need a special nuke who can punch holes without worrying about resists (because you can count on one hand the number of viable ice resists in the tier) and who's a lot more versatile than most people give it credit for (both choice sets are viable and so are LO, Sub+3 attacks, SubRoost and surprise resist berries) Kyu-W is your guy. Now people get it out of C+ because it's just painful to look at.


arceus dragon is a bit worse than arceus water but has a few things that make it situationaly better, bronzong can check the lati twins, check ekiller lacking shadow claw, check xerneas if it's still healthy, check mmence in some scenarios, some other stuff, and sets up rocks. we've been over kyu-w in the past and you know this, at this point I don't even know if you're trolling or not. I'm probably doing the wrong thing by taking the bait, but if you want a detailed counter argument to every point you could bring up, please check out the last 7 or so times you've posted and re-read the posts we've made. they should explain, all of them combined in great detail, why you're wrong. and unless arceus grass stall starts becoming a common playstyle, you will continue to be wrong.
 

Krauersaut

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Seriously, Nayrz, please blacklist Kyurem-White from discussion. It was funny making wisecracks and reading essays about it for ~3 pages of this thread, months ago. The joke's gotten old. QueenOfHax, you should stop being so stubborn and hellbent on making a shitmon out to be a dominant presence in this tier, and instead be receptive to the VERY accurate information that myself and players far better than me have already given you. Kyurem-White nukes shit, we get it. But the only team that's objectively weak to it is the one that's forced to sac something if it leads, because after that, Stealth Rock and its shit speed tier and defensive typing (and hell, its defenses aren't that great either) are the bane of its virtually irrelevant existance. C+ is generous, and we only put it there to stop this incessant whining about a Pokemon who truly doesn't matter in this metagame. I'd say more, but I'd just be recycling the ridiculous number of arguments that have already been made. Stop trying to convince the plethora of new users that come and look at this thread for help that a half-assed Deoxys-Attack actually has any presence or impact in ORAS Ubers.
 

haxiom

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^ To elaborate on reasoning which may be apparent to most but not others, Deoxys-A as a lead can't beat Mega Sableye at all; Deoxys-S is much better at preventing Defog and circumventing anti-leads with Rocky Helmet and Skill Swap. Thoughts on the LO Deoxys-A set? I think it can be hard to get away with no defensive synergy for a mon but offensively its not bad. B+ is probably appropriate though.
 
yeah, i think that Deoxys-A should definately go to B+. the Lead set is completely outclassed by Deoxys-S, not only because of Mega-Sableye, but he's also screwed by Kangaskhan and priorities. Deo-S is generally more versatile with Speed + bulk.

Life Orb is generally a better set imo, because it can pass through his checks with Coverage, for Example Ice Beam 2HKOs Mega Sab and Yveltal (Knock off is a bit subpar imo, only hitting Mewtwo? Latios is hit hard by Ice Beam anyway an Aegi can use King's shield to soften up the hit) Fire punch hits klefki and Ferro harder (superpower does a ton anyway.) while KOing Scizors. The problem is how easy is KOed by Priorities from Arceus, Klefki, and Yveltal, and pursuit trapped by Mega Scizor and Aegislash.

So yeah, nominating Deoxys-Attack for B+. he is still very strong but he's very difficult to put on teams because he doesn't provide any Defensive switch-in.
 
huh, deo-a is a potent lead as well mainly because it's way less passive giving it a bit of a better matchup vs the majority of teams, just not those teams that have a sablye on them. it's more versatile as a lead already because you can always save it if you think another mon is better suited and use it later on in the match for *espeed*/a hazard/nuking something, something deo-s generally can't do because it's more passive. also I don't see how deo-a is that much less effective at preventing defog between (+ spatk) psycho boost and knock off. I'm on mobile atm but I'd imagine arceus ghost can't defog and then stay in without dying, nor can arceus water.

It's more versatile since it's not inherently limited to one set, though yeah life orb is the better one. It's one of the best really hard hitters there is because it actually just ohkoes shit and has decent coverage as well, though admittedly a slight 4mss. A relatively strong espeed is nice too if your team at any point doesn't have a good way of dealing with ekiller/xern/darkrai/mewtwo/etc other than staying in with your current mon, after which deo-a often can finish them off. Insanely dangerous if you can fit u turn support!

Personally I took dice's comment the other way around and it made me wonder why he would think deo-s should be a subrank lower than deo-a (which it probably shouldn't, but I wouldn't mind honestly). Deo-a is not considerably worse when you consider both of its sets, I don't think it should drop. Plus it's significantly better than most of the stuff in b+ (maybe not latias, but it fits in well with mons like pogre in my opinion!)
 

Colonel M

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For what it's worth - while Deoxys-A may not shudder stall teams (especially with Mega Sableye in tow), it can be a menace against hyper offense because switch-ins have to consider what it may carry.

I asked dice to clarify quick and:

00:39 Colonel_M also Dice
00:39 dice hi
00:40 Colonel_M you meant DX-A down a tier from DX-S right?
00:40 Colonel_M or vice versa?
00:40 dice deo-a down
00:40 Colonel_M thats what i figured
00:40 dice or deo-s up

I would argue DX-S up to A actually. DX-S is just your best lead in most instances over DX-A for sure, though DX-A has an upper hand against hyper offensive teams since hyper offense has few safer switch-ins. Putting in DX-A in B+ probably is justified at the end of the day, but its ability to go into a more offensive role and have few checks behind it is something that is difficult for me to brush off. It's only so-so versus stall and teams that have a crapload of priority - and those with priority have to predict well against DX-A in order to get in safely.
 

haxiom

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So regarding Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A-

We have a few options. We can:
1) Deoxys-S moves up to A, Deoxys-A stays in A-
2) Deoxys-S stays in A-, Deoxys-A moves down to B+
3) Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A both stay in A-

I actually most agree with the first option. Deoxys-A is a pretty powerful offensive option, mostly I'm referring to the Life Orb. Defensively, Deoxys-A offers basically nothing other than maybe picking off very weakened foes with Extreme Speed. However, offensively, it's unboosted power is better than most of the Pokemon in A-. There are a few Pokemon that Deoxys-A is relatively comparable to in A- rank: Mewtwo similarly offers minimal defensive support, but is still a powerful and somewhat versatile offensive Pokemon that also has a certain factor of unpredictability. Rayquaza gives maybe a soft one-time check to Primal Groudon (especially if Rayquaza uses Charti Berry) and maybe Primal Kyogre once as well. Offensively, it's powerful, but it's still frail. Basically, I think LO Deoxys-A is threatening in regards to raw power to compare to these Pokemon which aren't necessarily as immediately threatening and difficult to switch into, but have small upsides in other areas, though still all being relatively frail (of course, Deoxys-A is by far the most frail though). Compared to B+ Pokemon like Excadrill which is situationally threatening, Mega Mewtwo Y that is sort of like LO Mewtwo but has a much higher opportunity cost, etc. I think that Deoxys-A separates itself from these.
That said, Deoxys-S is a far superior entry hazard setter and suicide lead to Deoxys-A, a role in which it is basically unmatched. Between Skill Swap and Rocky Helmet, it can beat a decent amount of its supposed anti-leads. Just the fact that standard hyper offense is as consistent and powerful as it is says something to Deoxys-S's effectiveness in this metagame on the whole. The way I see this is that Deoxys-A doesn't really fit in B+, and it is more accurate to have Deoxys-S in A than it is in A- with Deoxys-A.

Also I'd definitely write stuff for these rankings if we decide to do that.
 

Krauersaut

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i don't see how writing stuff for the viability rankings would be any more useful than linking their analysis page, seeing as it would just be a watered down version of it. also, it would take a considerable amount of time to implement if they were to have any decent length (say 1-2 paragraphs).

now that being said, if nayrz/fireburn/sweep wants to go through with it, i'd be more than happy to help :] (and would reserve kyogre-primal because fuck fireburn)
 
<Nayrz> whats ur thoughts on it fireburn
<Fireburn> just link analysis imo

done - thats gonna be a pain to change when the thread gets updated...

re: the idea - it would take a large amount of work to complete and the benefit is only giving a shortcut and v baseline intro to what the mon does, which doesn't appear to help as much as you would think. whats the difference between writing small paragraphs for this thread and just reading the intro on the mon's analysis? if you really wanna know how a mon fits into the meta, there aren't any shortcuts. if the response is "well the intros on the analyses suck" then that's something that can and will have to be changed.

however this isnt a 100% set in stone decision - if there is overwhelming support and a better explanation as to how it would help then i (and the mods) will reconsider.
 
So regarding Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A-

We have a few options. We can:
1) Deoxys-S moves up to A, Deoxys-A stays in A-
2) Deoxys-S stays in A-, Deoxys-A moves down to B+
3) Deoxys-S and Deoxys-A both stay in A-

I actually most agree with the first option. Deoxys-A is a pretty powerful offensive option, mostly I'm referring to the Life Orb. Defensively, Deoxys-A offers basically nothing other than maybe picking off very weakened foes with Extreme Speed. However, offensively, it's unboosted power is better than most of the Pokemon in A-. There are a few Pokemon that Deoxys-A is relatively comparable to in A- rank: Mewtwo similarly offers minimal defensive support, but is still a powerful and somewhat versatile offensive Pokemon that also has a certain factor of unpredictability. Rayquaza gives maybe a soft one-time check to Primal Groudon (especially if Rayquaza uses Charti Berry) and maybe Primal Kyogre once as well. Offensively, it's powerful, but it's still frail. Basically, I think LO Deoxys-A is threatening in regards to raw power to compare to these Pokemon which aren't necessarily as immediately threatening and difficult to switch into, but have small upsides in other areas, though still all being relatively frail (of course, Deoxys-A is by far the most frail though). Compared to B+ Pokemon like Excadrill which is situationally threatening, Mega Mewtwo Y that is sort of like LO Mewtwo but has a much higher opportunity cost, etc. I think that Deoxys-A separates itself from these.
That said, Deoxys-S is a far superior entry hazard setter and suicide lead to Deoxys-A, a role in which it is basically unmatched. Between Skill Swap and Rocky Helmet, it can beat a decent amount of its supposed anti-leads. Just the fact that standard hyper offense is as consistent and powerful as it is says something to Deoxys-S's effectiveness in this metagame on the whole. The way I see this is that Deoxys-A doesn't really fit in B+, and it is more accurate to have Deoxys-S in A than it is in A- with Deoxys-A.

Also I'd definitely write stuff for these rankings if we decide to do that.
I completely agree with deo-a being better than most things in b+ and about on the level of a- mons, it definitely belongs there. But would you really say deo-s is even comparable I'm viability to mons like latios, klefki and arceus water? It's a really limited mon, don't forget viability in almost inherently defined as how easy it is to fit a certain pokemon on a team. Deo-s isn't NEARLY as splashable as the other a mons, and only fits in with a certain type of team. It may essentially define that type of team, but still all those deo-s ho teams are all terribly linear and there's only so much you can switch up with them.

Deo-s doesn't belong in A, deo-a doesn't belong in B+; keep both in A-.
 
I feel like Normal Kyogre is better than D rank. Kyogre believe or not this was S rank material in XY and every gen before that but now all of sudden it has dropped to all the way to D Rank.
The main reason for the sudden decline was the release of the Primals. Primal Groudon turned a match-up upside down and Pogre outclasses in SpA and bulk. Also Soul Dew did not exist in XY either so that hurt too.
However Normal Kyogre still has a niche. It can run Choice Scarf. You may think that Kyogre is shut down easily by pokemon such as the Latis and Primal Groudon but it is still the sweeper it was before. It just needs more support from teammate to get the job done. Having pokemon such as Arceus Ground help Kyogre by helping eliminate a potential check to Kyogre. Xern or Yveltal could help on the Latis. You can even run your own Latis with Kyogre.
Kyogre is still Kyogre it just has more checks and counters.
 

Krauersaut

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Kyogre is still Kyogre it just has more checks and counters.
To the cringe quotes database we go!

On a more serious note, you're ridiculously understating just how bad the generation shift hurt Kyogre. Most teams pack at MINUMUM two checks to Primal Kyogre, and often, they don't even try to. They just fall into place. (See: giant, fire breathing dinosaur.) For a Choice Scarf Kyogre to even have the slightest chance at putting in weight in a match, the conditions have to be like, better than perfect. Your argument for its viability consists of "it's teammates beat its checks jajaja xd!" and "it COULD do well.", neither of which can be seriously taken into account in an argument for an individual Pokemon's viability. Scarf Kyogre can't switch in on anything except revenge kills, and even then will find itself cock blocked by a plethora of options from Primal Groudon to Arceus-Water to every Dragon type ever. There's literally no argument for this mon's viability.

YES I REALIZE I'M SAYING THIS HAVING SAID THE EXACT OPPOSITE 6 MONTHS AGO. THINGS CHANGE :<
 
However Normal Kyogre still has a niche.
Would you mind explainng its niche to me, because I can't think of it. If you look at other mons that are C Rank, you certanly can find a niche for them. Mawile is an offensive Xerneas Check, Ditto is able to (kinda) check Set-Up Sweepers, Gothitelle is able to trap a lot of passive mons and beat most CM Arceus-Forms 1 on 1. Even though they require a lot of support, they will put in some work if give them the right support.
The Problem that normal Kyogre has is that the only thing that it does is using a watermove. Other than that it is just dead weight. At this point you can just use POgre because it does the same, but isn't
cock blocked by a plethora of options from Primal Groudon to Arceus-Water to every Dragon type ever.
POgre simply outclasses it and can hit its switch ins for a decent amount of damage because it isn't choice locked. There is absolutely no reason to use it when you could use POgre. It doesn't matter how much support your team provides, Kyogre won't make use of the given opportunity beacuse it can't.
Keep it in D Rank
 

Freeroamer

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Only reason you would ever use reg ogre is for the scarf set, as it's the one thing the primal can't do, however scarf users are generally terrible in this metagame barring a few exceptions, mainly because they can't actually revenge kill boosted threats(RP Don, GeoXern, DD Mence) and because they give setup opportunities away. Scarf Ogre is especially pretty terrible considering its main output of damage is stopped cold by a Pokemon that has somewhere between 70-80% usage even on ladder. Theoretically some teams could get overwhelmed by a Scarf Kyogre once primal groudon has been removed but as krau said a lot of teams will have a secondary water resist so even if it somehow overcomes don it will still need more support/prediction to be able to spam it's water STAB.
 
i think it's silly to rate arceus-ground higher than water and ghost when i find the former terribly overrated and hardly as splashable. double ground really does bring more issues than meets the eye even if groudon isn't really a true ground but eh... there haven't been many builds using groundeus that i've liked at all. arc-water and ghosteus are just way more solid imo as a defensive utility. groundeus obv takes the cake on the offensive standpoint tho.. really hate how it's a pdon 'check' weak to burn.... if u get plumed on the switch and u get zarel'd ur sweeper is kinda boned... i mean in theory u have another solid pdon check too but u cant ever be sure of the game state and how reliable it will be to come in on a certain set. lugia being so high seems kinda outta place too... it fits on one of the shakier archetypes and on an occasional balance.. not really a fan. it owns if u can fit it but that's the issue. deo-s should be a for sure.. definitely much more usable than deo-a.. spikes deo-a isn't really that great imo and sr is only worth using if your team really needs the jump vs deo-s teams.
 

hyw

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Whether it's A+ or A, I think the three Arceus forms should be equally ranked, perhaps with Arceus-Water being ranked higher than the other three. In my opinion, Arceus-Water is the best support Defog Arceus due to its defensively awesome typing which grants it a resistance to Sacred Fire and Lava Plume, albeit it does come with the trade-off of getting hit super effectively by Dialga's Thunder. On the other hand, Arceus-Water cannot opt for any other set, but the Defog set alone fits easily on stall and balance teams.

Arceus-Ghost has been notorious since BW2 for its SD Shadow Force set that surpasses even Ekiller in raw power, while it can opt for a defensive support set with Defog, too, albeit I personally dislike this variant as Ghost fails in providing defensive utility and synergy. Arceus-Ghost can opt for a defensive set with Will-O-Wisp, too, but this is mediocre as well due to Refresh Mega Salamence increasing in popularity, as well as the rare yet always possible Refresh Ekiller (relying on Will-O-Wisp forces you to be careful in statusing the opponent's Ekiller with another status as well, giving you less freedom when using status moves as a paralyzed or toxiced Ekiller is immune to Will-O-Wisp). In addition, changes between BW2 to ORAS with Primal Groudon receiving an immunity to Will-O-Wisp, the metagame becoming less passive with things like Ferrothorn dying out, et cetera mars its previous spot as the best Arceus form.

Finally, we have Arecus-Ground. I think that Arceus-Ground was originally put above the aforementioned two due to its ability to run both an SD and Defog support set reasonably well, whilst doing the latter job even better than Arceus-Ghost. Yet, empirically, the anomaly caused by the near-obligatory use of Primal Groudon has led players to be forced to make up for the weaknesses exposed by running double Ground types on one's team via the other four teammates. Dice touched upon this and I couldn't agree more; defensive Arceus-Ground is very hard to fit on a solid team when one chooses to run Primal Groudon alongside it and, in addition, I personally find Defog Arceus-Ground to be extremely difficult to play with well, as it relies on predicting correctly when to use Judgment against the opposing Primal Groudon as opposed to Toxicing it and pressuring with Defogs to clear Stealth Rocks. So much so that, honestly speaking, the only player that I have seen use Arceus-Ground well in any context so far has been Level 56 alone.

In short, Arceus-Water, -Ghost, and -Ground should share the same spot in ranking because Arceus-Water is the most consistent and most easy-to-fit Defogger but loses to Thunder SR Dialga, Arceus-Ghost's SD set is a slower and deadlier Ekiller but its defensive set is the worst of the three, and Arceus-Ground, while its SD set is arguably equally as threatening as Arceus-Ghosts, and its Defog set almost as good as and sometimes surpassing Arceus-Water's ability to fill out this role due to it not losing to SR Dialga, is generally less consistent in keeping hazards off the field as it is less passive and is more difficult to fit on teams due to the omnipresence of Primal Groudon, causing an overlap in typing variation.
 
Does Primal Groudon really count as a ground type defensively, it's neutral to grass, immune to water and neutral to rock. Where's the logic behind it limits teambuilding defensively when paired with Arceus-Ground?
 
it's not the nuances of typing that differentiate pdon from arceus-ground making it troublesome, but the fact that the similar typing makes arceus-ground kinda linear. i guess what i'm saying is that other arceus formes are way more unique and cover a lot more in one slot defensively (although arc-ground is one of the best offensive arc-formes). it's not that pdon is a true ground (it isn't) but having some factors of being a ground type that overlap with arc-ground makes it more suboptimal at times, and arc-ground's niche of checking pdon is p linear compared to a lot of other dudes.
 
I might be wrong, hate me if I am, but what bad trait does Pdon inherit from Ground type? It gets the SR neutrality and the stab ground move. It gets the electric resistance and the poison resistance. Am I missing something?
 

Le Chiffre

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Arceus-Ground: A

Arceus-Water: A+

Completely agree with Dice on this one.. Arceus-Ground is very redundant with Primal Groudon and share the same checks and counters. Also the sword dance set is highly overrated and is outclassed by EKilled and SD Ghostceus.

Arceus-Water is on par with Lugia in my opinion and also checks 3/5 S tier threats. (Ho-oh, Mence, Pdon) it's overall bulk and great utility (best defogger imo) should make it move to A+
 

Minority

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I might be wrong, hate me if I am, but what bad trait does Pdon inherit from Ground type? It gets the SR neutrality and the stab ground move. It gets the electric resistance and the poison resistance. Am I missing something?
Think less in terms of absolute typing and more in terms of what a different typed Arc provides for a build. Pretty much every offense team is going to be running P Don, so why allocate an Arc slot to another offensive Ground when you can run Arc Ghost, something that offers a much wider array of utility rather than (to some degree) stacking offensive roles. A similar thing happens when you consider defensive builds and Arc Water. Arc Ghost and Water are simply much more splashable than Arc Ground and much of this has to do with P Don. Viability rankings should reflect that.

Mega Ttar and Lando-T got analyses, so please rank them. C+ / B- and B- / B respectively are good starting points.
 
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