ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[hyw]

Both 252+ Primal Groudon and 208+ Life Orb Ho-Oh 2HKO full HP Primal Kyogre with Precipice Blades and Brave Bird, respectively, so Primal Kyogre can't switch into either's offensive variants. Additionally, it's 1HKO'ed by a +2 Precipice Blades so I don't consider Kyogre to be a soft check at all. I think Ferrothorn should be B- since it doesn't really counter anything just checks a bunch of stuff mediocrely but Primal Kyogre equalling Mewtwo in standing sounds just right to me.

 

[Hack]

I would like to add to this discussion by saying that I am in 110% concurrence with Hack, Sweep, and perhaps others (I have not read every post here) regarding the ranking of Primal Kyogre. Primal Kyogre is, in my opinion, just as over-centralizing as Primal Groudon in ORAS but in an antithetical fashion; the two's abilities go hand-in-hand when concerning the viability of Pokémon in this tier in general. The reason that Primal Groudon is on 99% of teams can be largely attributed to the mere existence of Primal Kyogre, as it would otherwise be too overwhelming of a threat.

This is reflected in the changes I made to a team that I built in XY, which underwent major tweaks upon the arrival of ORAS. In XY, the team that I made consisted of the following: Deoxys-S, Groudon, Darkrai, Rayquaza, Xerneas, and Ekiller. My team-building process for this team reflects the over-centralization of Kyogre in XY as the team was built to abuse its prevalence. This was done by switching Groudon into Kyogre's move, letting it die as it leaves sun up on the field, then bringing in one of the four set-up sweepers to sweep. This is done whilst keeping Stealth Rocks on the field and wearing down the opponent's team before the sweeper is brought in. Credit for this tactic goes to alexwolf and Transcendent God Champion who came up with the idea of beating Kyogre by utilizing Groudon's sun in BW, and I believe orch can attest to the effectiveness of this team and tactic through the numerous games we have played in preparation for the currently on-going XY tournament.

However, the introduction of Desolate Land and Primordial Sea altered the landscape of the metagame entirely. Since the Sun brought by Drought fails to replace the Rain brought by Primordial Sea, I had to give my Groudon a Red Orb to turn the tables on Primal Kyogre. The fact that this team subsequently became the principle outline for standard hyper-offense proves the fact that while Primal Kyogre is a threat necessary to be reckoned with, the reality of Primal Groudon running rampant alongside it means that, one, Primal Kyogre has a difficult time doing its job, which leads to two, that it faces competition from Primal Groudon in checking threats. Due to the overvaluation of Primal Kyogre in ORAS by the Ubers community, there may be those who disagree with Primal Kyogre's ranking, but this post serves as a bolster to the drop in this Pokémon's ranking.

Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. That Primal Groudon is on every team has almost nothing to do with the existence of Primal Kyogre, I'm really not seeing where you are coming from.

I can sorta agree with dice regarding the inconsistency of having it in the same rank as m2 so eh. A- or B+ doesn't really matter too much to me.

 

[QueenOfHax]

Kyurem-W is a shitty mon that I really couldn't care about less.

No it's the #1 special wallbreaker in the tier, especially now that Primal Kyogre's viability is being put into question. Get this thing in the B+/A- rank where it belongs because being into the C-ranks with Mega Slowbro and Mega Aerodactyl is downright insulting. As long as Primal Groudon is shitting all over every single ice resist in the tier Kyu-W will be spamming absurdly powerful STAB Ice Beams all day long and OHKO (or 2HKO at worst) everything else.

 

[Hack]

hahahahaha xd not u again

 

[Freeroamer]

How is it that Kyurem-W always gets brought up? This thing offers next to 0 defensive synergy on your build, is checked by arguably the most common Arceus formes on balance and stall and offers little vs offense unless it dons a scarf, diluting it's wallbreaking power, and in general including this mon in your build will result in a flawed build. Can we actually blacklist discussion on this mon and just agree to leave it where it is because it always makes the thread go shitty for a few days.

 

[Hack]

How is it that Kyurem-W always gets brought up? This thing offers next to 0 defensive synergy on your build, is checked by arguably the most common Arceus formes on balance and stall and offers little vs offense unless it dons a scarf, diluting it's wallbreaking power, and in general including this mon in your build will result in a flawed build. Can we actually blacklist this mon because it always makes the thread go shitty for a few days.

isn't it just better to blacklist the only user who makes the thread go shitty for a few days?

 

[Colonel M]

I fear becoming the next QueenofHax but I'll at least get the ball rolling.

This might be a little early for me to say, but I would like to propose Mega Tyranitar to be ranked.

From what I have been told Mega Tyranitar was oft downplayed because it was a Pokemon that was inferior to others. As in the XY Uber analysis:

Mega Tyranitar is quite bulky and powerful, but it's a poor choice in Ubers due to Mega Salamence, Gengar, Diancie, and Sableye all providing a much larger amount of utility than it.

I greatly disagree. DD Mega Tyranitar is a Pokemon that can open opportunities for Primal Groudon and Xerneas better than others state. For some examples:

- Darkrai commonly run Sludge Bomb as their final move of choice. In fact Focus Blast is so rare it is barely even mentioned as a move option:

14:01 Colonel_M !usage1337 darkrai, moves
14:01 TIBot Dark Void 99.699% | Dark Pulse 99.175% | Sludge Bomb 81.538% | Nasty Plot 73.152% | Ice Beam 13.267% | Substitute 5.954% | Focus Blast 4.855% | Taunt 4.160% | Other 18.200%

In this scenario Mega Salamence has a harder time coming into Darkrai than even Mega Tyranitar since the risk of running Ice Beam is almost 3 times greater than running Focus Blast. In no way can Mega Gengar step into Darkrai unless Mega Gengar has Mega Evolved and Mega Sableye takes risk in taking +2 Dark Pulse.

- Mega Tyranitar overcomes some threats for other teammates better than others.

With examples of Mega Salamence and Primal Groudon Offensive Mega Salamence and Primal Groudon still struggle greatly against threats such as Lugia, Skarmory to some extents (if PDon runs double dance), and Giratina (this one is rarer so its minor to mention). Mega Tyranitar can actually get through Lugia and Skarmory since its STABs are much more effective against Lugia and Skarmory than MMence's are. Again, there is some truth that PDon can overcome Skarmory for MMence, but that requires HO PDon to sacrifice a setup move or another attack for it.

In fairness Mega Gengar is hard to argue against, but you have to realize that Mega Gengar does its job very well. The problem is that regular Gengar is still somewhat prone before Mega Evolution (though it can switch into some attacks, it is still a frail Pokemon that has to watch out on being predicted against). Mega Gengar is also quite prone to Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak, which are moves that can be seen on Giratina-O and Yveltal.

Diancie is kind of a funny one. It's a Pokemon that pairs nicely with some offensive threats. One of the few upper hands Mega Tyranitar has over Diancie is that Mega Tyranitar isn't gimped as much by Primal Kyogre. Though defensive variants can cause a headache offensive Primal Kyogre is OHKOed by Stone Edge over 50% of the time without Stealth Rock. Mega Tyranitar is a little less prone to the Steel-types, but I wouldn't necessarily write home about them either.

Mega Sableye is not really for Hyper Offensive teams. It's designed more around defensive teams - which DD Mega Tyranitar will not participate in.

Personally I know this argument might not say a whole lot; however, I would like the Uber Viability people to re-consider Mega Tyranitar as a potential threat in the Uber conquest. It's a Pokemon that can create holes and opportunities for hyper offensive teams while packing resistances to common priority moves. Best of all its typing is -just- good enough against some of the very common Uber threats such as Darkrai. To be more conservative on its ranking, I'm going to start by proposing it in C Tier. If it pleases the court I will compare Mega Tyranitar around capable Pokemon; however, I would like to first ask about the Uber QC team to re-consider Mega Tyranitar's viability before possibly arguing for no reason.

Though he is sleeping and leaving for school trickroom can also attest to Mega Tyranitar's prowess.

 

[Freeroamer]

I've never tried an offensive Mega Ttar but why would I use it over Mence?(That's not a loaded question btw, it seems to me apart from a couple of very slight niches such as setting up on Darkrai with Sleep Clause active and reduced rocks damage Mence is just a better setup option)

 

[Krauersaut]

DD Mega Tyranitar isn't something I'd recommend, but I can attest to the mon working defensive wonders. It can hit fantastic EV benchmarks such as OHKO'ing Latias with Pursuit on the switch-out, OHKO'ing Salamence -Mega with Stone Edge and surviving a Focus Blast from Gengar-Mega, to name a few. You could even get away with a Resttalk Rock Tomb set, which I've played around with and I know others have as well. I don't particularly care about where this mon ends up, but it's worth noting that it finds a defensive niche in Ubers, however slight.

 

[Colonel M]

I've never tried an offensive Mega Ttar but why would I use it over Mence?(That's not a loaded question btw, it seems to me apart from a couple of very slight niches such as setting up on Darkrai with Sleep Clause active and reduced rocks damage Mence is just a better setup option)

Like Mega Salamence, Mega Tyranitar can take advantage of some gimped Pokemon and set up on them. They both set up on slightly different Pokemon, but their results can be just as terrifying.

One example are the Lati twins. Mega Tyranitar can swap into them and easily set up one or two Dragon Dances depending on what they used. Very rarely do Latis pack a SE move against Tyranitar and offensive Latios can only cripple Mega Tyranitar with Memento (which can also apply to Mega Salamence anyway). Even at -2 Latios has a 50% chance to OHKO Mega Salamence after Stealth Rock with Draco Meteor. At best Draco Meteor is doing pitiful damage and forces Latios to either Memento or give Tyranitar free reign to setup. Latias is a little less intimidating for Mega Salamence, but the point is Mega Tyranitar can swap into both Latis as another example and threaten them to either sacrifice themselves or let Tyranitar set up.

Ho-oh is another example that doesn't want to realistically stay into Tyranitar either. Though Mega Salamence can game with Refresh it requires the sacrifice of Earthquake and makes it lose some grounding against a lot of threats that resist Flying (Dialga). There is also Intimidate; however, Salamence doesn't really want to switch into a Ho-oh in fear of Brave Bird doing quite a chunk to it. It's risky with Tyranitar and there are likely better teammates like PDon for Ho-oh; however, it's hard to really shrug off Tyranitar being able to handle Ho-oh slightly better. The only exception where Mega Mence might handle Ho-oh better is if Mega Mence comes in on the revenge and is the Bulky DD Mence.

Yveltal is one more example that Mega Tyranitar has a slightly better chance of handling than Mega Salamence. Mega Tyranitar resists both of Yveltal's STABs and Focus Blast is extremely rare (less than 5% use it). Provided that Mega Tyranitar doesn't switch into STAB Foul Play it can set up on Yveltal without too many issues and KO it with +1 Stone Edge. Though it is dangerous for Yveltal to switch into Mega Salamence, Mega Salamence doesn't want to switch into defensive Yveltal because Foul Play will do a significant amount of damage if Salamence attempts to set up and can play dirty mind games against Mega Salamence with Taunt. Not to say that Yveltal will completely overcome Mega Salamence (especially defensive Mega Mence), but it is a bit more problematic for Mega Salamence.

I'm not saying Mega DD Tar lacks flaws, but against some teams it can puncture through a little bit better. Both aren't huge fans of Mega Sableye, but Mega Tyranitar has a better chance tackling Lugia and denting Skarmory. As an added bonus - Refresh DD Salamence can also lose to Mega DD Tar...though with EQ the latter could happen too I guess with bad play. *shrugs*. The biggest advantages to Mega Tyranitar over Mega Salamence are:

- Resisting common priority moves (Sucker Punch and Extreme Speed)
- Setting up on different powerful threats (Latis, Darkrai, Yveltal, Ho-oh to some extent)
- Beating some Pokemon easier than MMence (Lugia to some extent, Skarmory)
- By removing those two threats it makes it easier to set up HO threats such as Double Dance Groudon.

I've found GeoXern and Double Dance Groudon paired with Mega Tyranitar was a great trio. Sand can also be super trolly because it breaks things like Focus Sash.

 

[LeapsFrog]

I believe that Mega-Tyranitar should be ranked. Looking at Mega Tyranitar on paper it has the exact same ability as Tyranitar but has better base stats. What's noteworthy is that it has 100/150/120 defenses compared to 100/110/100. It also has 30 more attack as well. Tyranitar does run Life Orb so it does not suffer from not being to have an attack boosting item.
I believe that Mega Tyranitar is in fact better than standard Tyranitar, however it wastes a mega slot which is why not as many people use it. I would put in B+ which is the same rank as Tyranitar. Tyranitar is viable without a Mega Stone but using it as your Mega makes it slightly stronger. It may not be enough to warrant being used as your Mega but the point is that it is stronger than Tyranitar and should be deeply considered on any team without a mega.
Mega Salamence
Mega Gengar
Mega Sableye
These Megas seem to be the current Big 3 of Megas according to rankings. People still are able to handle using other Megas such as Mega Diancie, Mewtwos, and Kangaskhan that are in the B area of the rankings. Mega Tyranitar is probably in that area as well so it definitely deserves to be ranked.

Also I said this earlier but it was not really agreed with but is seeming to receive more support from other users.
Excadrill need to be ranked lower than Tyranitar. Excadrill the majority of the time relies on Tyranitar for sand. Even when it does run without Tar, the sets that are run are inferior to the sand sets. We need to raise Tyranitar or lower Excadrill to show to users to who use the rankings to build teams that Excadrill is recommended to be with Tyranitar.

 

[Sweep]

Stop fanboying Kyurem-W, there's nothing wrong with having a dissenting opinion but there's a difference between thinking something is underrated and proposing a wallbreaker with shitty defensive typing and inability to actually break stall for A- rank (no, Specs Focus Blast with hazard support is NOT breaking Blissey in practice -- ever -- as that assumes perfect conditions AND your opponent leaving Blissey in to eat two consecutive Focus Blasts in a tier where Fairies and Ghosts exist).

I don't like how badly Tyranitar loses to Primal Groudon, and while on paper +1 Earthquakes will hurt Groudon enough for Xerneas to break it, teams will carry at least two Xerneas checks anyway so you'll need to sucessfully overload their other check as well. Tyranitar would be a nifty check to Ho-Oh if it didn't fear a Sacred Fire burn, but it does...I'll try it when I get time next week to see if it's QC worthy, finishing up a short vacation right now.

 

[Colonel M]

I don't like how badly Tyranitar loses to Primal Groudon, and while on paper +1 Earthquakes will hurt Groudon enough for Xerneas to break it, teams will carry at least two Xerneas checks anyway so you'll need to sucessfully overload their other check as well. Tyranitar would be a nifty check to Ho-Oh if it didn't fear a Sacred Fire burn, but it does...I'll try it when I get time next week to see if it's QC worthy, finishing up a short vacation right now.

In fairness if Tyranitar gets +1 on PDon, it can beat PDon one-on-one. If you want to go for the absolute ballsy route you can try for 84 Def EVs. Provided no SR is in play it will survive a Support PDon's Precipice Blades and still 2HKO PDon with +1 Earthquake. Bear in mind it is risky but plausible.

As far as Ho-oh there is an alternative way to bypass getting burnt. If you have Xerneas as your teammate you can sacrifice Thunder for Misty Terrain. This will protect Mega Tyranitar from status and Xerneas does draw in Ho-oh nicely.

It's just examples on what could be done to get around it. I have been using Aromatherapy but I've highly considered Misty Terrain because it would protect my team a little better against the Toxic-fest.

 

[TheMagikarpOne]

This may be one of the most ridiculed posts in this thread but here it is.

Klefki----> A+

This thing basically prevents your team from being wrecked by Geomancy Xerneas, Darkrai, non-lum berry Ekiller Arceus, and most other setup sweeper except the CM Arceus formes and double dance Pdon. Sure, against pdon its basically dead weight as all it can do is Toxic against it. But against the aforementioned Pokemon above, Klefki suceeds at stopping you from complete destruction against them . It also completely walls the Latis because of it's typing. Klefki forms an effective barrier against Xerneas. Xerneas basically has to wait for one of its teamates to kill Klefki.

 

[Krauersaut]

klefki's biggest problem is lack of recovery, allowing it to get easily overwhelmed. yes, in theory, it can check all of these things. in practice? not so much. it's a fantastic last-resort stop to threatening sweepers and a good check to mewtwo, xern, darkrai, latis and yveltal, but it simply can't do it all. it's also walled by the ever-rising-in-popularity sableye, and gets destroyed by the omnipresent ground type, which makes it sad. it's where it should be for now.

 

[dice]

klefki cant even beat xern 1v1 reliably it's not a+ lol

it's good for compression but is not very pragmatic in game without some finesse

 

[xRoyUltra]

This may be one of the most ridiculed posts in this thread but here it is.

Klefki----> A+

This thing basically prevents your team from being wrecked by Geomancy Xerneas, Darkrai, non-lum berry Ekiller Arceus, and most other setup sweeper except the CM Arceus formes and double dance Pdon. Sure, against pdon its basically dead weight as all it can do is Toxic against it. But against the aforementioned Pokemon above, Klefki suceeds at stopping you from complete destruction against them . It also completely walls the Latis because of it's typing. Klefki forms an effective barrier against Xerneas. Xerneas basically has to wait for one of its teamates to kill Klefki.

Xerneas can kill Klefki by using Earth Power.

 

[Aquasition]

Xerneas can kill Klefki by using Earth Power.

Xerneas does not learn Earth Power.

 

[xRoyUltra]

Xerneas does not learn Earth Power.

my bad
Xerneas can use hp fire to hit Klefki.

 

[2NOus Prime]

my bad
Xerneas can hp fire to hit Klefki.

HP Fire isn't that great in the current meta. However Xern can run HP Ground instead.

 

[hyw]

Klefki is just set-up bait for Xerneas; not only does Klefki not stop Xerneas, but it gives it the opportunity to sweep the rest of your team.

 

[dice]

lol no.

 

[Taliheim]

Klefki is just set-up bait for Xerneas; not only does Klefki not stop Xerneas, but it gives it the opportunity to sweep the rest of your team.

To elaborate on dice's comment: All Klefkis run Thunder Wave to cripple any Xerneas audacious enough to try and set up in its face, and Play Rough to break possible substitutes. Defensive variants get worn down by Toxic, as well (edit: also forces it to Aromatherapy, which can give a free turn if played well). In fact, the scenario is reversed; Xerneas just gives Klefki free reign to either Spike up or spread status.

 

[GundamExia]

Klefki is just set-up bait for Xerneas; not only does Klefki not stop Xerneas, but it gives it the opportunity to sweep the rest of your team.

ahh what?? i though klefki could thunder wave it to oblivion bye bye geomancy speed boost, then swagger/foul play or play rough??
keys is one clown that scares the fairy queen deer.

ninja'd

 

[haxiom]

hyw was referring to the more gimmicky block rest or rest talk xern variants though they're not that common. also swag play is banned gundam