ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[Lord Outrage]

Careful not to overrate Bronzong. It can't check Fire move Primal Groudon, Rayquaza w/ V-create, or Refresh Salamence (max power Gyro Ball does 42% max to no bulk Mega Salamence so if it has Refresh you lose) or Mega Rayquaza cuz its banned, but your list is fine otherwise. You also don't really want to use Gravity on Bronzong, it removes the entire reason to use it over other Steels which is the Ground immunity. It also only realistically has one moveslot to play with since you need SR/Gyro/Toxic (unless offensive TR which needs TR/Gyro/Explosion and move 4 is usually SR or EQ), so I wouldn't call it "customizable". Skill Swap is cute for getting SR up vs Sableye teams though.

Bronzong also can't beat Xerneas at full HP by itself (Gyro maxes at 80% and you are 2HKOed by +2 Focus Blast or Moonblast + Focus Blast), though this is less of an issue than it was last gen since Primal Groudon makes it easier to fit a backup Xerneas check.

To Jirachi's credit, it can paralyze Primal Groudon with Body Slam or at least make use of U-turn to dance around it.

Nobody use V-create on Rayquaza unless it's like on low ladder or something because other moves have way better utility.
Also since many has protect the only way to 2HKO it with Xerneas is 2 Focus Blasts with average rolls and without missing.
Other than that it can set up Sr vs common defoggers like Arceus Water and Latias.
It also counters Ground Arceus, Mega Diancie, Latios, Latias, Sand Rush Excadrill, Rayquaza, Shaymin-S and Lugia.
Add to that the ability to set up trickroom vs salamence and ekiller and many others on offense which makes it the best tr setter in ubers.
It also releases Groudon from sr and allows it to run sd and break stall.
for me it's B rank material.

 

[Knuckstrike]

You people are giving bronzong way too much credit for checking mons. Almost 1 in 3 rayquaza run Vcreate, even on the higher ladder (1760 stats give Vcreate as 28%, higher than the 0+ stats). Xerneas indeed has to hit two focus blasts IF it lacks HP fire. And even then, relying on focus blast missing isn't really a way to build a check against xerneas. With its low bulk it fails to reliably beat many of the pokemon it would be a check to, even more so if that pokemon has a coverage move. Sure it sets up sr against the latis and arceus water but that's not enough to warrant an entire teamslot for a pokemon that barely does anything else.
Countering lugia and ground arceus isn't what I would call a hard counter. Sure, lugia can't do much back but the most bronzong can do is sit there and not die while lugia stalls out bronzong of gyro balls.
Arceus ground isn't hard countered: by the time bronzong switched in and got off a toxic, groundceus is already at +4 and can do around 50% with stone edge if adamant. If it does win (or it's a double down) it'll be around 10-20% and unable to do anything else in the match.

I do think bronzong is a fair trick room setter. However, it can't abuse it himself and has to explode to get anything in. Plus, jirachi can set up trick room as well and has more bulk too.

 

[absdaddy]

Nobody use V-create on Rayquaza unless it's like on low ladder

I'm not bloody low ladder.

 

[Krauersaut]

You people are giving bronzong way too much credit for checking mons. Almost 1 in 3 rayquaza run Vcreate, even on the higher ladder (1760 stats give Vcreate as 28%, higher than the 0+ stats). Xerneas indeed has to hit two focus blasts IF it lacks HP fire. And even then, relying on focus blast missing isn't really a way to build a check against xerneas. With its low bulk it fails to reliably beat many of the pokemon it would be a check to, even more so if that pokemon has a coverage move. Sure it sets up sr against the latis and arceus water but that's not enough to warrant an entire teamslot for a pokemon that barely does anything else.
Countering lugia and ground arceus isn't what I would call a hard counter. Sure, lugia can't do much back but the most bronzong can do is sit there and not die while lugia stalls out bronzong of gyro balls.
Arceus ground isn't hard countered: by the time bronzong switched in and got off a toxic, groundceus is already at +4 and can do around 50% with stone edge if adamant. If it does win (or it's a double down) it'll be around 10-20% and unable to do anything else in the match.

I do think bronzong is a fair trick room setter. However, it can't abuse it himself and has to explode to get anything in. Plus, jirachi can set up trick room as well and has more bulk too.

I'm sorry, I'll now bow down to your far superior knowledge of the intricacies and tactical genius of the Pokemon Showdown! Ubers ladder.

Bronzong is just as, if not better, a check to Xerneas then Jirachi, which was the main thing in your original post, no? And being able to set up hazards on the Lati@s twins is ABSOLUTELY enough reason to warrant a spot on a team, let alone checking Primal Groudon, Rayquaza, Salamence-Mega, Xerneas, Arceus-Water, Arceus-Ground (LOL don't bullshit me, the second Groundceus comes in so does Bronzong) Arceus-Dragon, Lugia, Trick Room and many more I can't be fucked to name. You are priding yourself far too much on a few poorly played games on the ladder, dude.

 

[Hack]

Vcreate is good on lo ray but rays only relevant set is the charti pdon lure... Why is ray relevant to anything? Zong is a big no no for sr purpose even if it runs skill swap. You dont wanna forfeit the opportunity of having the best sr user in the game over an undoubtly good, yet unnecessary sweeper on those balanced teams.

Zong tr is set is legit for may reasons and puts it in c-rank

 

[Fireburn]

You people are giving bronzong way too much credit for checking mons. Almost 1 in 3 rayquaza run Vcreate, even on the higher ladder (1760 stats give Vcreate as 28%, higher than the 0+ stats). Xerneas indeed has to hit two focus blasts IF it lacks HP fire. And even then, relying on focus blast missing isn't really a way to build a check against xerneas. With its low bulk it fails to reliably beat many of the pokemon it would be a check to, even more so if that pokemon has a coverage move. Sure it sets up sr against the latis and arceus water but that's not enough to warrant an entire teamslot for a pokemon that barely does anything else.
Countering lugia and ground arceus isn't what I would call a hard counter. Sure, lugia can't do much back but the most bronzong can do is sit there and not die while lugia stalls out bronzong of gyro balls.
Arceus ground isn't hard countered: by the time bronzong switched in and got off a toxic, groundceus is already at +4 and can do around 50% with stone edge if adamant. If it does win (or it's a double down) it'll be around 10-20% and unable to do anything else in the match.

I do think bronzong is a fair trick room setter. However, it can't abuse it himself and has to explode to get anything in. Plus, jirachi can set up trick room as well and has more bulk too.

Uhhh there are a few inaccuracies here:

1. ORAS Xerneas hardly uses Hidden Power Fire. Scizor isn't common enough for it. If it's using Hidden Power it's probably going to be Ground.
2. It is absolutely a counter to Lugia. Lugia can't hurt Bronzong while it just gets Toxiced. Levitate also means its harder to wear down with Spikes shuffling.
3. Arceus-Ground usually doesn't runs Adamant. It needs the speed to tie fast Wisp Arcs/Mence.

Bronzong is also a better Trick Room user than Jirachi, I don't think that's disputable. Levitate is key since it gives Bronzong more chances to get it up, and it can make good use of Gyro Ball for offense or Explosion to buy a switch for a teammate (which is relevant since you only have so many turns to make use of Trick Room). Jirachi's advantages (Wish, paralysis, better Speed, Iron flinch) are not put to good use on teams with Trick Room in mind, which need strong, instant offense to make good use of the turns. Bronzong's reasonably strong Gyro Ball (with investment it actually hurts) and Explosion allow it to provide some of this itself so it isn't a momentum suck. Jirachi can't do this.

 

[Knuckstrike]

I have underestimated bronzong's capabilities of countering Groundceus. Also I thought lugia might run sub which renders bronzong useless but that is very uncommon.

Can you elaborate on the fact how bronzong counters xern better than jirachi though Krauersaut? I think I gave my reasoning as to why it's a worse check.

I don't like how bronzong just sits there and can't cripple anything bar toxic. Though I suppose it earns a C rank based on the fact that it's one of the best TR setters and doesn't die in two hits to many pokemon.

 

[Krauersaut]

I said 'just as, if not better, a check to Xerneas." They both 2hko and get 2hko'd, so it comes down to utility outside of simply checking Xerneas, in which case Bronzong offers far more.

 

[Knuckstrike]

I said 'just as, if not better, a check to Xerneas." They both 2hko and get 2hko'd, so it comes down to utility outside of simply checking Xerneas, in which case Bronzong offers far more.

I would disagree with the statement of 'They both get 2hko'd so they do the same job of checking xerneas.'
Jirachi does a better job because it can actually cripple xerneas with thunder wave. Afterwards it can use iron head and will beat xerneas 70% of the time and otherwise leave it paralyzed at less than 50%. On the other hand, bronzong leaves it low but cannot cripple xerneas in such a way.

Also, there's very few moves that bronzong has that jirachi misses. The two main ones are confuse ray and hypnosis which are both shaky.

 

[Aberforth]

Bunch of nom's here again.

Kyogre to S:
I was against this a couple months ago, but the recent metagame trends (decline in Latis, Ho-oh balance being more common, stall being more used) make me think this whale could go back to S. The Calm Mind Rest set practically destroys stall by itself, the physically defensive set is a very good option on balanced teams to have a secondary measure against things like Salamence and Ho-oh (also being a good way of discouraging ho-oh from going for sacred fire), and the calm mind three attacks set can murder a very large number of balanced teams that aren't capable of handling Water/Ice/Electric coverage. So yeah the metagame trends make me feel it should rise again.

Arceus-Ground to A:
While the SD set is still very good, I cant help but feel like it just isn't as good as the other Mons in A+. Darkrai is among the most constraining mons in the tier, Arceus-Ghost has 3 viable sets, all of which are good, Gengar is Gengar, Ho-oh is still fantastic in a game where keeping stealth rock on the field is difficult, and I just nom'd Kyogre to go up to S. Nothing much has changed for Arceus-Ground really, but I feel it is more in line with the latis than it is in A+. Also opportunity cost has gone up with more Arceus forms being used then there were when Arceus-Ground went to A+.

Diancie to A-:
While it was overhyped a bit at the start of ORAS, I feel Diancie should go back up to A-. Diancie Ho-oh remains a very potent offensive combination, magic bounce as an ability is just fantastic, and much like the latis it no longer needs to run a +speed nature, and can so 2hko a large portion of the meta.

Arceus-Dark to B:
Its just gotten worse at breaking stall. Now Blissey runs snatch so Darkceus cant beat it consistantly, clefable outright counters darkceus, ttar are now running low kick to hit it, ext. Its gotten worse than it was before and should move down as a result.

Kangashkan up to B+:
Ya I just feel this mon is underrated. Very good matchup vs HO, has good options to provide defensive utility (low kick means it can check ekiller, for example) and it hits pretty damn hard for balanced teams too. Hard countered by sableye so I suppose it could stay B as a result of that, but I do feel it belongs more in B+ than B.

Lucario up to B:
One of the better stallbreakers, its reliance on iron tail can hurt it but still better than blaziken and stuff.

Arceus-Ice to C+:
I think we overhyped it after Donkey and Dice. Ice is a fantastic attacking typing but considering the large number of steel types that roam around for Xerneas that beat it, as well as ho-oh being very good and beating it in most situations so long as stealth rock isn't on the field, and being revenged by Pdon unless it has gotten 4 calm minds up, I feel it should move down a little.

Jirachi to B-:
I think its just a better version of genesect. It doesn't get download but serene grace is a lovely ability that has never once caused me to rage quit thank you very much, and scarf healingwish is always going to be fantastic. (to be clear I think the reason it should move up is the scarf set, not the rocks set).

Kyuremwhite ditto to D/unranked again plz I really dislike them both.

 

[Hack]

lol @ kyogre to s what the holy shit

It should to go to b+ if anything, it's extremely overrated. The fact that you can never have it in and say "oh here I'll just get off this guaranteed strong hit" because Pdon is on almost every good team cannot be understated. Pogre needs to guess every time it attacks, and even if you are pretty sure someone wouldn't want to sack their Ho-oh that you are in vs, it's still a play that involves chance just because the best mon in the meta is immune to your STAB and your strongest coverage move.

Also, Kyogre is slow, it's physically frail (it needs to invest in defense to hold up but gets 2hkod by some common phyiscals anyway) and for every defensive set the lack of lefties will hold it back. Even if you remove its checks, guaranteeing a sweep is almost impossible considering it's that slow.

The CM+Rest set is one way ticket to get owned by any offense, infact any set with ogre aside twave ones are going to be super weak to HO, which is one of the worst weakness a team can have.

Where is the physically defensive set good? It has never been /good/. It has always been a shitty middle ground between a real support groudon check and an anti status mon.

Every team has a way of handling the CM+3 atk set. I don't care if the team just has Pdon as its check, Kyogre is still slow and even more physically frail with this set... Very easy to exploit.

However, the biggest point is as always: synergy. How on earth can you justify this mon on balance when it doesn't check 1 single thing well? Using Kyogre on balance means you are strapped to 5 slots to handle more offensive playstyles and in reality this never flies. Look at steels SPL finals team, the Kyogre there ultimately was a wasted slot in that specific match-up. So on what team exactly does this mon fit on? I never actually consider the option of using any set aside Twave+Waterfall because at least that can catch some ppl off guard and sorta check CM Arcs. But even then, it's still just a mon that doesn't explicitly counter or check anything while being prediction reliant to work.

to B+ it goes

 

[DoubleOD]

That is such a good post. Steel should just redo the entire Viability rankings by himself.

As the lynchpins of effective stall, Mega Sableye and Lugia have been underrated for far too long.
Agree with the Latias drop. Have no idea what it was doing in S- 6 months ago. That's pretty ridiculous.

I'd lean A- for Primal Kyogre than B+. There is something to be said for having a mon that can hit things really really hard on the Special side, and besides Xerneas and CM Arc forms (which you have to dedicate a slot to), this tier is somewhat lacking in that respect. Life Orb Mewtwo does not hit nearly as hard as rain-boosted Primal Kyogre. I've started to see numerous Primal Kyogre run Water Spout as a lead to just hit the first thing that comes in super hard. I'm sure we could find a nice niche or set for Primal Kyogre that would be useful against all forms if we worked at it long enough.

 

[Fireburn]

Minor nitpick: Modest Latios can't OHKO standard support Primal Groudon at full HP (252/200 Impish maxes at 90%, max/max Careful maxes at 79%). It'll be good for very little afterward but saying it can OHKO while Latias can't isn't 100% accurate. I do agree that Latios should probably be a little higher than Latias though.

Klefki could probably drop but I wouldn't put it lower than A-. It is very true that most of the stuff it checks has ways to overcome it (Yveltal starting to run Heat Wave hurts a lot), but Klefki's ace in the hole is still role compression. Nothing else Spikes and checks Xerneas/Lati@s/M2/Darkrai/Yveltal/Lugia/Shaymin + emergency checks any fast non Ground/Electric-type sweeper in one slot. Bronzong comes kind of close but can't Spike, check Dark-types at all, and is worse vs Mewtwo due to lack of Prankster TWave. Bronzong doesn't synergize well with things that can Spike. I also hesitate to call TR Zong a "counter" to Double Edge Mega Salamence and Klefki not since it beats it in a similar fashion Klefki does (ie uses Thunder Wave Trick Room to stop the sweep and sacs itself because +1 DEdge 2hkoes oopsy)

It is worth noting Klefki can beat Mega Sableye with Dazzling Gleam and some EVs in Special Attack (88 gives ~80% chance to 2HKO which is good enough). I don't think this changes any KOes on Klefki but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The main thing you lose by ditching Play Rough is worse chip vs Xerneas (which admittedly can be bad).

"Skarmory counters Primal Groudon without a Fire-type move" - only if it also lacks Swords Dance since you get 2HKOed by +2 Stone Edge, and considering that most Groudon run Fire-type moves you can't really ever trust Skarm to take it on. The "optimal" set of Toxic/Defog or Spikes/Roost/WW has no room for Counter which makes actually beating Refresh Salamence and SD Groudon using Skarm a somewhat questionable prospect. Skarm also can't actually beat Mega Diancie without Iron Head since it just clicks Moonblast until you run out of Roost PP. There's also Lugia which walls mostly similar things but synergizes better with pure Spikers like Klefki or Ferrothorn, and isn't weight vs sp. attackers since it can stay in with Multiscale (whereas Skarm just gets owned). I don't Skarm is A- worthy because of this (tl;dr 4mss, losing to most sp. attackers, competition with lugia on fat teams).

 

[Hack]

I disagree with skarm and klefki. Klefki being in the same rank as zong and lower than skarm doesn't make any sense. Viability is defined as how many teams you can use said mon on, and klefki is simply much more splashable than the other steels. Skarm itself will always be shut down by mega sableye and it while it checks major threats in sd arceus and mence, it is also just bait for a fair amount of mons. Depending on 4th move it can also have big trouble with mega diancie which is uncharacterstic of a steel type. Zong is a bad SR mon and a niche TR setter. It surely has some merit but it's really not that great.

The things you point out about klefki are mostly true but let's face it. Heat wave yveltal? Hp fire latios? There is always room for counterplay vs those kinda sets, you can easily scout with something like ho-oh on your team. Idk to me the ability to emergency para just about anything (especially DARKRAI who you are completely dismissing throughout your entire post) is still really good. And spikes are good too. And not to mention klefki is one of the most likely mon to actually lure in pdon/ho-oh and successfully landing toxic on a switch.

The point you make about Klefki being a worse mon in practice doesn't fly. I'd say it's rather the opposite that stands true. Theoretical encounters of hp latios, heat wave yveltal and fire move mewtwo surely make the mon look riskier but it really isn't that bad. In practice klefki forms a sound foundation for flexibility. It- just like primal groudon- has a very volatile role. It is able to adapt what it can do in a game depending on the opposing team. Not many mons have that flexibility.

Klefki can maybe be viewed as overrated, but zong and skarm aren't even close to its viability. Writing a long post is fine at times but I doubt these 20 likers actually agree that skarm is a better mon than klefki.

I agree with most other things, though the real point of discussion should be what the fuck mewtwo and mewtwo-y are doing in a rank and what ghostceus is doing in a+.

 

[Level 56]

Yeah Mega-Kangaskhan should move up to B+. Steel already explained what Mega-Kangaskhan is capable of. This replay shows that Mega-Kangaskhan is still a good mon to use in the current metagame.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-ubers-43435

Skarmory is fine where it is now. It can check top threats such as ekiller and mence, can set spikes but other than that, it doesn't have many uses. It Is totally shut down by stall teams, struggles against balance teams too. Its a mon which gives few uses and needs TOO much support to function. Threats like Ho-oh, Xerneas, Mega-Gengar, Darkrai, Primal-Groudon, Primal-Kyogre, Mega Sableye, Mewtwo, Yveltal easily force Skarmory to switch out and the mon which comes in takes great amount of damage. Not to mention, Skarmory also loses to Refresh mence.

While Klefki has many uses if compared with skarmory in the current metagame. Klefki pressures threats like Darkrai, Lati@s, Lugia, Yveltal, Xerneas, can predict and toxic Primal-Groudon/Ho-oh when they try to switch in and is a great spikes setter.

Bronzong is also much like skarmory, its completely shut down by stall teams, has very few uses and needs too much support. So there is no way Klefki should be placed below Skarmory.

Other than that, I agree with most other things steel said.

Also, I agree with Hack that the main point of discussion should be about why Mewtwo / Mewtwo-Y and Ghostceus are placed so high in the list.

I was actually wondering a few days ago that why Ghostceus is A+, when the only reason it is used in teams is to check ekiller. Well, what if ekiller is carrying Magic Coat, it's pretty much useless then. It probably has some uses outside of cheking ekiller, but there is no way it should be in A+ rank because all other mons currently in A+ rank have clearly more uses than Ghostceus. So yeah Ghostceus should be placed in A- or A.

Will post thoughts on Mewtwo / Mewtwo-Y later

 

[Antacool]

First off, I'd like to nom Ho-Oh for S Rank again. I've been using it a lot lately, and my long-standing opinion that it is one of the best, if not the best offensive 'mon in Ubers, has only been cemented by this recent usage of the Firebird. It is easily on the level of the other 3 S-Rank threats. I don't think this is a disputable fact. Ho-Oh is one of the few Pokemon with no counters; it can get by most checks with Thunder Wave and a well-timed paralysis alone. The other S-Rank mons can't boast of this; even things like Extreme Killer and Xerneas are countered by Clefable, and Mega Salamence will not be able to break through Skarmory. This lack of counters is in part due to Flying being such a phenomenal offensive typing, particularly when Ho-Oh chokes out every Flying resist with a coverage move.

But there's more factors that make it so strong. Ho-Oh is also a very versatile Pokemon; Substitute/Roost/Thunder Wave/Tailwind/Whirlwind/Sleep Talk/Earthquake/Flame Charge can all be viably run as third or fourth moves without the feeling of the 'mon having 4MSS. It can also run Life Orb or Choice Band and can go bulky or fast. It's also nigh on impossible to build a team where absolutely no Pokemon are abused by Ho-Oh; even great teams tend to have at least one or two Pokemon it can switch somewhat freely in on, and if they don't have those then they have at least a few things Ho-Oh beats one-on-one. Pokemon such as Latias, Ferrothorn, Dialga, Arceus-Ghost, Giratina-O, Mega Gengar, Mega Sableye, Klefki, Arceus-Dark, Clefable, Aegislash, Mega Scizor, and Skarmory all give Ho-Oh free turns. These free turns are only made better by the phenomenal ability Regenerator actually rewarding the Ho-Oh user for switching out of the opponent's checks to it.

Speaking of these checks, let's see how they handle Ho-Oh:

Primal Groudon: 248 HP / 56+ Def variant is 2HKO'd by a combination of Life Orb Brave Bird and Earthquake after Stealth Rock. Ho-Oh can easily EV to outpace this (apparently people typically only run like 16 speed on it or make it -spe????), not to mention that it needs to run the subpar Stone Edge to even be considered a check. Choice Band Ho-Oh also 2HKOs with just Brave Bird.

Tyranitar: Earthquake 2HKOs even Shuca variants, nothing to say about this one.

Arceus-Rock: Probably the "best" check to Ho-Oh. Choice Band Earthquake does an average of 75% to it. Compound this with a Sacred Fire that manages to burn and Rockceus doesn't hold up as a check at all in longer games, or if the opponent manages to play well enough to get Ho-Oh in a lot. Rockceus is also basically out of the picture versus Thunder Wave variants with Earthquake; it really only walls the uncommon Subroost Ho-Oh.

Arceus-Water: Another good check to Ho-Oh on paper. However, the fact that Judgment does around 50% to it makes it very easy to fish for burns against, at which point Brave Bird wears it down phenomenally. Thunder Wave followed up by Brave Bird spam also ruins it the instant it succumbs to a 25% chance. Jolly Ho-Oh also outpaces some Waterceus =[|]

Landorus-T: Really unable to do much of anything if it gets burned. There's also this calc: -1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 166-196 (43.5 - 51.4%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.

Mega Salamence: Non-Refresh variants cannot take a burn. Refresh variants also lose to Thunder Wave because Life Orb Ho-Oh 2HKOs even max hp / max defense Mega Salamence with Brave Bird after Stealth Rock. Meanwhile, defensive Salamence's Body Slam does less than 50% back on a high roll. Choice Band Ho-Oh outdamages Roost recovery as well; essentially, if Stealth Rock is up or the game goes on long enough, Mega Salamence will fall to Ho-Oh.

Lugia: This 'mon is a similar case to Salamence, except unlike Mence its only way of consistently damaging Ho-Oh is clicking Toxic and spamming Roost. It checks non Thunder Wave or Substitute or Roost variants of Life Orb Ho-Oh pretty well, but Choice Band overwhelms it the instant Sacred Fire burns a switch-in
(252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Lugia: 211-249 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). Jolly Ho-Oh is faster than Lugia as well. Lugia doesn't ~enjoy~ switching in with Stealth Rock up as well, and if really anything manages to status it (like Pdon, for instance) then it's not gonna take on any Ho-Oh.

Kyogre-Primal: If it hasn't taken any prior damage it forces non Jolly variants out one-on-one. Can't switch in for shit; Life Orb Brave Bird 2HKOs Max HP / Max Def Bold variants without needing Stealth Rock, and 0/0 variants are OHKO'd by Life Orb Brave Bird after Stealth Rock (obviously, CB Brave Bird OHKOs without needing Rocks). Bringing it in on Ho-Oh is a pretty massive gamble since the only move it really wants to switch in on is Sacred Fire, which it usually isn't locking itself into or clicking, particularly versus balanced teams that have this 'mon...

Physically Defensive Yveltal: Words cannot express how bad this set is. Jolly Ho-Oh ends it, no questions asked. The instant it comes in on a move not named Earthquake, Tailwind, or Thunder Wave, it's forced on the defensive, particularly if Rocks are up, and Foul Play won't KO Ho-Oh. This means that Ho-Oh very easily fishes for burns versus it, and the instant it's burned it is no longer a check. If Stealth Rock is up, Choice Band Ho-Oh can realistically beat it without even needing to burn it; all it has to do is spam Brave Bird and then switch out, since the move outdamages its Roosts.

I know I'm taking Ho-Oh and putting it in a vacuum and saying that it beats all its checks when the opponent is giving it enough free turns to do so, which might not seem entirely fair. There certainly are 'mons that force it out one-on-one, like Zekrom and Rayquaza (in most cases), that are admittedly adequate offensive checks in practice. And who can forget the awkward Stealth Rock weakness? Whilst Ho-Oh is the best wallbreaker in Ubers, it seems that there are Pokemon that can do better versus more offensive teams by virtue of having higher base speed stats. I'm not gonna try to make the case that Ho-Oh is good versus the standard offensive team of Deoxys-S/Darkrai/Xerneas/Primal Groudon/EKiller/Mega Salamence with just standard defogger or magic bouncer support, because it isn't.

Instead, I'm gonna make the case that Ho-Oh is good versus that standard team with spinner support. A Rapid Spinner paired with a Sleep Talk Ho-Oh is one of the very very few ways to indefinitely prevent Deoxys-S teams from getting Stealth Rock up whilst making Darkrai next to useless; the opponent can't simply lead with Darkrai and force the spinner out, because Ho-Oh counters that. You don't even need to lead with your spinner versus Deoxys-S teams if you have a solid enough defensive backbone to handle Xerneas/EKiller/Mega Salamence (this should be a given) and double dancing Primal Groudon. You can attempt to anti-lead their anti-lead, which gets you momentum versus smart players when it works, and even if the opponent does lead with Deoxys-S then there's no repercussion to switching your spinner in on that and clearing rocks away. This is because the opponent's Darkrai, a realistic switch-in to Rapid Spin and one of the opponent's two tools for beating teams with a decent defensive backbone, is unable to do anything versus a Sleep Talk Ho-Oh when Stealth Rock is off the field. Ho-Oh is also pretty good versus offense when it is running the often-overlooked Tailwind or Flame Charge sets, which clean through weakened offensive teams remarkably well since they outpace everything after a single turn of setup and are very strong. Even if Ho-Oh isn't running these sets, nothing on HO generally wants to set up on a Choice Band Ho-Oh locked into Brave Bird (or really any Life Orb Ho-Oh), meaning there's a sizable risk to the opponent setting up as opposed to attacking what's in front of them. This means that your checks to Primal Groudon/Mega Salamence/Arceus/Xerneas can switch in much easier since they run little risk of stomaching a +1 or +2 attack. Considering that the combination of Mega Salamence/Arceus/Xerneas is largely as good as it is because each Pokemon sets up and beats the counters for one of its teammates and Ho-Oh makes these mons not want to set up in one-on-one scenarios, Ho-Oh is also good versus offense in this abstract way.

And then there's the Stealth Rock weakness, which seems to be the most common argument for Ho-Oh not being in S-Rank. I don't understand this argument. 90% of teams should have a Defogger anyway, and it isn't hard to fit one of Salamence, Giratina-O, Latios, Latias, Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Water, Skarmory, Arceus-Ghost, or Mega Scizor on a team. All of these 'mons have utility outside of clearing Rocks for Ho-Oh; I can expound upon the general utility of each 'mon here at anyone's request, although that would be going off on a bit of a tangent.

Even if you don't want to use any of those Pokemon, then great! There are spinners too! Excadrill, Cloyster, Tentacruel, and Forretress can clear hazards off for Ho-Oh as well. I'm going to go as far as saying that, on an offensive team, Ho-Oh doesn't need support from anything other than a spinner to function to the best of its ability. The replay linked in the previous sentence features a team I recently built for round 6 of seasonal with nothing but Cloyster to prevent hazards for Ho-Oh; you'll notice that shrang doesn't get his rocks up at any point in this game.

Do you have concerns about spinners or defoggers not blocking hazards as consistently as they should? It's not hard to supplement them with a Magic Bouncer in Diancie or Sableye, which are really easy to fit on teams and are totally cool and viable Pokemon that also have niches outside of supporting just Ho-Oh.

If you missed it, the point I'm making is that while Ho-Oh does need support to remove Stealth Rock, it is not remotely hard to fit something that prevents hazards on a team, and a method of hazard prevention should be on the vast majority of good teams, anyway. Seriously, how is there anything but a small opportunity cost to fitting one or two of 15+ viable methods of hazard removal with niches outside of removing hazards onto a team?

In summation, Ho-Oh fits the criteria of S Rank quite well, since:

- There is very little opportunity cost to its use. You have over 15 methods of hazard prevention to choose from in a tier where ~32 other Pokemon are considered by the community to not be absolute nichemons. At least one of these 15+ Pokemon/sets should be on the vast majority of good teams anyway...

- It is an incredibly powerful offensive threat, competing with Pokemon like Darkrai for the title of best wallbreaker in the game. It has the ability to beat literally every defensive check to itself under easily achievable circumstances, and it beats more than two thirds of the tier one-on-one.

- It is powerful on the defensive spectrum, too. Its Special Defense stat is ridiculous, and it's able to comfortably switch in on and check Latias, Dialga, Arceus-Ghost, Gengar, Giratina-O, Mega Sableye, Arceus-Dark, and more. Regenerator (and maybe even Roost) makes it a great check to several Pokemon like Latios, Deoxys-A, Shaymin-S, Darkrai, and Xerneas in one-on-one scenarios. Nothing else in Ubers can take down those Pokemon and then proceed to heal itself back up to full health by simply clicking the "switch" button and pivoting in on the 1+ Pokemon that are inevitably Ho-Oh bait on the opponent's team.

If I was as motivated to write term papers as I was to write Ho-Oh noms I would be the best student ever. Fairly sure I just passed the 2000 word mark and this post isn't even finished yet.

This is exactly why this beast should be ranked in Ubers.
Not even 2HKO by Ho-Oh, and place easily Stealth Rock on it.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

This is exactly why this beast should be ranked in Ubers.
Not even 2HKO by Ho-Oh, and place easily Stealth Rock on it.

View attachment 48799

I'd rather run Rhyperior over Solrock if I wanted a soft counter to Ho-oh. Maybe this thing should be ranked as well. (k I get it rhyperior has no recovery but it has much better bulk + offensive presence + dragon tail)

 

[Antacool]

I'd rather run Rhyperior over Solrock if I wanted a soft counter to Ho-oh. Maybe this thing should be ranked as well. (k I get it rhyperior has no recovery but it has much better bulk + offensive presence + dragon tail)

Eviolite Rhydon / Rhyperior and Solrock are all three the best Ho-Oh's soft checks.
Solrock has the advantage to check as well 90% of Pdons and Mega Salamence (which is priceless imo in a meta where those threats are very common)
But Dtail Rhyp can check SD Arceus Forms bar Groundceus, such as Ekiller and SD Ghostceus, which is also very nice.

 

[Kebabe]

Mons that should fall all way down to hell (unranked): Scolipede, forretres, scizor, metagross, lopunny and slowbro.

And speaking of hell, satan aka gothitelle should really be ranked, maybe a B-rank.

I don't think I have to elaborate on this so I won't unless someone don't get it.

 

[Antacool]

I don't even understand the point about the TR set being niche; what TR setter isn't niche? It's better at setting the move than, say, Palkia or Diancie.

I invite you to dicover my TR team featuring zong in Ubers Teambuilding Competition. To answer to this, it's a backup check to threats such as Xerneas, SD groundceus and E-killer lacking Shadow Claw (and even with you can invest a bit on def to survive +2 Sclaw). Something that Diancie and Palkia absolutely cannot.

Finally, I don't see the point why we should reject Solrock on an analysis. The offensive metagame in Ubers is today based on Normal/Fire/Fly/Rock + EQ coverage, that means Solrock has a niche, and I'm serious. I peaked top 10 ladder at least 3 times with Solrock since XY, one being 1st in XY with TR, one in ORAS stall, and one with only PU teams with it, just to say.

 

[Hack]

it's a bad SR pkmn because it introduces massive opportunity cost. You forfeit the best SR user in the game (pdon) for a sweeper set, but on a team with a balanced mindset rather than an offensive (due to the inclusion of zong) will in my opinion never have a kind of advantage for a sweeper pdon > a support one. You also spend a slot on a mon that doesn't check as much as it is weak to. Klefki is to me, better, because it compresses a check to an amount of threats that has more weight than that of zong. The only thing that really counters is xern and arceus-ground while klefki has unparalleled utility vs offensive teams. Not to mention zong inevitably requires you to run a dark check- which is terribly hard to synergize with the mon. Fairys are rather off putting because now you have 2 ho-oh weak mons and will inevitably result in a weaker build.

I don't quite understand how you can argue for zong being better than klefki or whatever it is that you are trying to do, klefkis twave utility makes it easier to fit with tanks like pdon/ho-oh. Don't care about the randoms sentiments you are making regarding other users teams because 2 of those teams are bad and one has plenty of counterplay to something as obscure as 4 atks latios (seriously dude what).

Don't even try to talk out klefki of being a good darkrai answer, that's just plain dumb.

I understand TLDRing is cool because it gives your texts the appearance of large authority but you and me both know that posting damage calcs I already know and considered just doesn't help your case if you wanna convince me. Jabs like "baseless statements" aren't either when shit like "Klefki is a shitty spiker" and "Klefki being worse in practice" is equally baseless. Normally I'd say you'd have shot at convincing me if you structured your rhetorics better, but I can't really say you will ever convince me that Skarmory and Zong are better mons than Klefki, so I'll just drop the debate here.

 

[Sweep]

Re: steelphoenix's proposed changes

Ho-Oh: A+ --> S

I'm fine with this after reading your argument. I'm on the fence, but it's absolutely dominant when rocks are off the field. TWave variants can mess with Deo-S leads, at least forcing it into a 50/50 between Taunting the predicted Thunder Wave or yoloing and using SR. In that regard I don't think Ho-Oh necessarily needs to get automatically curbstomped by HO.

Primal Kyogre: A+ --> B+

Agreed, it's a fairly decent Pokemon in this metagame due to its pure power and ability to lure and cripples many of its checks with TWave and / or Earthquake (I've said physical was probably its best set since the start of ORAS and still believe it, point goes to Trickroom and I), but as you and Hack said the vanilla Water typing and mediocre physical bulk does it 0 favors in this metagame in terms of fitting onto balance, and it isn't fast enough to fit onto heavy offensive teams that could forgive its inability to check anything effectively. B+ sounds about right, even though I feel its strengths are being downplayed in this thread.

Latias: A --> A-

A- at best, and I'd even argue for B+. This is a Pokemon that I never never once justified over Latios due to its inability to check anything efficiently without a janky EV spread, like the slow, weak Latias that invests in physical defense solely to check RP Groudon with Dragon Claw. It does little to no damage vs. defensive teams and is easily overwhelmed by offensive teams doe to its inability to beat many Pokemon 1-1 (the best it can do is use Draco Meteor on Primal Groudon I guess). Steels wall it to no end, and it's Pursuit bait for Tyranitar / Aegislash.

What does Latias check in this metagame? It's a mediocre Primal Groudon switchin for the reasons steelphoenix highlighted, Kyogre very often runs Thunder Wave (and SHOULD run it), it can't switch into Rayquaza and gets picked off easily by Extreme Speed when its health is middling...it's very easy to adjust to. Latias also gets murdered by Extreme Killer Arceus, Darkrai, Xerneas, Ghost Arceus, and a slew of other common offensive threats. It is WAY too easy to deal with for practically any team and I STRONGLY support it dropping to B+ (although I'm OK with A- if people think this is a reliable Defog user despite getting trounced by Klefki / Tyranitar / DTail Primal Groudon / Ferrothorn).

Healing Wish is cool but this really is not a mon I like using on offense...at all...and it doesn't have the moveslot on balance.

Lugia: A--> A+

sure thing

Mega Sableye: A- --> A

sure thing

Skarmory: B+ --> A-

sure thing

Klefki: A --> B+

A- please. On one hand, I agree it is EXTREMELY easy to take advantage of its garbage stats by bopping it with niche sets or coverage moves. Heat Wave Yveltal and Block GeoXern give it massive problems, support Arceus and Latios can chip it very easily with Earth Power / HP Fire (or even Psyshock) respectively, etc. But the overall great match-up it has vs. common Defog users, as well as its ability to circumvent one (although not both) Magic Bounce users with either Dazzling Gleam or Flash Cannon as its attack move cannot be understanded. It is damn good at setting up Spikes and damn good at luring in stuff and Toxic'ing them...I cannot wait until I draw an opponent unfamiliar with ORAS Ubers in the open and Toxic their Primal Groudon switchin. B+ is too harsh, but I agree A is too high considering Ho-Oh, SD Groundceus, and Primal Groudon all exist.

Mega Kangaskhan: B --> B+

begrudgingly OK with this

Arceus-Dragon: C --> B-

Agreed with the B- rank, Dragonceus is a neat Mence check that resists Sacred Fire (but still gets smashed by Ho-Oh after a couple of switchins) and soft-checks Primal Groudon. It's usable if your team really needs its positive attributes but Xerneas and Steels make its life hard (although Fire Blast can deal with Ferrothorn and Klefki sorta, idk how you're gonna fit Defog onto your team in that case unless you want to run two Dragon types). I used it right before QC checking its analysis and find I needed to double switch out of it a lot to deal with the stuff it invites in. Thank goodness Primal Groudon exists! It's average at best but usable, B- is fine. I really hope people don't act like this thing is good just because it has a niche and is the "new kid on the block."

Tentacruel: Unranked --> C+

haven't used this mon enough to comment, this seems alright though

Bronzong: Unranked --> B+

Too high, I'd argue for B- instead. Yes, checking Xerneas /SD Groundceus and reliably setting SR is nice compression, but Bronzong loses to way too much in this metagame and cries if it sees a Mega Sableye (unless you want to use Skill Swap and spam it every time Zong comes in, in anticipation of a MSab switch). It clowns on Diancie (huge) and checks some Salamence, but a +1 Double-Edge does a TON and it just loses to Refresh variants. Also, checking Latias isn't a relevant niche; if I wanted a SR setter that could check Latias I can just use Wormadam-S xd

This is also massive Ho-Oh and Spikes-bait.

Apologies for any spelling/grammar errors but there's no way in fucking hell I'm going over this and GP checking it all on my phone

You wrote this dissertation on your phone? LOL

 

[Hack]

Idk Sweep , I can't agree with you about Klefki. I used to think it was really shit back in early SPL, Donkey putting the thoughts in my head probably helped me form that opinion but w/e. I just feel Klefki is the pinnacle of sound balance building. It compresses the exact amount of threat checking that you need in the slot with utility to support more offensive mons with status spread and spikes. It being such a great check to Darkrai in particular, especially when the meta really has few viable scarfers, if any, is just a too good attribute to pass up on for balanced squads. I can surely understand that gimick sets from Latios or more or less questionable mons like Yveltal and Mewtwo have chances to break through but it doesn't actually change much because having Klefki on your team means you won't get swept by the likes of DD Mence, Xern (no gimicks please) or Darkrai. And that is extremely important.

The problems I had with Klefki builds back in SPL, which lead to me questioning its viability more, was that the teams it was used on simply lacked physical bulk. I don't remember any clear examples but there were a couple of aim/edgar builds that were simply too physically frail to be consistent. Jibaku, big user of klefki in spl, usually had different problems, mainly with Ho-oh but looking back at it, I don't think these problems were that important. His teams usually contained the required physical bulk (through stuff like msab, support arceus, even a lugia sometimes) and post SPL I began seeing a some new builds that followed the formulas, for example Outrage's RMT. I have felt the urge to use Klefki on many a balanced teams lately simply because it's the best mon at giving me a failsafe for the aforementioned Darkrai, among other things.

Overall I'm probably fine with Klefki being an A- mon, but I would not be fine giving Skarmory the opportunity to join those ranks. Anything in the A-ranks are implied to be overall solid mons in the meta- which I really think isn't the case for Skarm as it is much more match up reliant in my mind.

 

[Fireburn]

No comment on Skarmory, it's a 'mon I've been able to fit on a lot of teams recently and I think it's pretty cool (much better spiker than Klefki, checks many large threats well) but I don't really disagree with a lot of what you said. Iron Head Skarmory isn't an unreasonable set though, and I don't see Skarmory competing with Lugia when both can pretty easily be fit on the same team to give as much assurance vs physical threats as possible.

I disagree with a lot of this. Skarmory's reliable recovery and ability to consistently set Spikes on common threats makes it a better Spiker than Klefki, in my opinion. The point about Skarmory being "just bait" for a fair amount of 'mons is moot because Klefki is "just bait" for the exact same 'mons, and more. The point about Skarmory being shut down by Mega Sableye is also a trait shared by Klefki, which can't viably run Dazzling Gleam because the move deprives it of its defensive niche of paralyzing a few things and getting decent chip damage on them. The point about the fourth move is true but Skarmory certainly can run a set devoted entirely to checking Diancie whilst still walling physical attackers (Iron Head / Toxic / Taunt or Whirlwind / Roost) if the need arises. It can also run the aforementioned set with Spikes over Taunt or Whirlwind if a team struggles with Diancie but handles threats like EKiller fine; my Week 1 SPL team is an example of a team like this. I don't understand at all why Bronzong is a bad SR Pokemon; I see it as one of the best in the tier when it comes to defensive utility coupled with ease of dismantling methods of hazard prevention, up there with Primal Groudon.

Skarm only handles Kang/Drill better than Lugia which are not that hard to cover on stall (Sab and/or fat Arceus handle these well enough). Aside from that it's redundant. I guess it handles SEdge EKiller/Groundceus better too but Lugia is already good vs those guys.

I find it inaccurate to call Skarmory a better spiker than Klefki. Skarmory is completely dead weight against Magic Bounce while Klefki can at least try to chip Sableye/run coverage to beat one of two of them while Ferrothorn can beat Diancie easily and try to chip weakened Sableye with a little Speed investment (both Ferro and MSab have base 20 Speed so you can creep a teeny bit) and Power Whip. Skarm is also garb at handling Latios which is a cardinal sin of a Steel-type when trying to compress roles, and is arguably worse than having to run another MDiancie check since you can at least use SDef PDon (kind of) or a bulky Arc-Water/Ground/CM Ghost to still handle it adequately. Skarm also misses out on Prankster and can't really afford to tango with Defog Lati/Judgment Arceus since they just blow through its crap special bulk.

You also sorely undervalue the utility of Prankster TWave, but Hack already addressed that.

Klefki A/A- and Ferro/Skarm at B+ sounds about right to me. Skarm is definitely not on the same level of general utility as Klefki though.

 

[Minority]

The point Hack made about Mewtwo (normal and MM2Y) is a really good one. It's been taken for granted that this mon deserves A rank as it has just sat there for months - rarely talked about and scrutinized. I think its current rank is partly a carry over from XY as few people were ever outspoken enough to knock it down along with some complacent mindset among the general community of "well this mon isn't super easy to check" and "I guess it could do things".

It's already been stated many times that when it comes down to it all viability really means is how easily that Pokemon can be fit onto a team. When it comes to Mewtwo I don't see it as worthwhile to use as its peers in A rank, or honestly, even in A-. Back in XY there were a whole mess of reasons to use Mewtwo which is evident from the number and variety of teams that elected to use it. In ORAS I'm skeptical. I could be out to lunch, but how many good ORAS teams are there where Mewtwo actually plays an important role? Not to base my argument entirely on personal experience, but I don't have a single team that utilizes Mewtwo or MM2Y (a couple with MM2X however). I feel that this fact is an indicator that Mewtwo isn't very worthwhile to use, especially when a majority of what I build leans towards the offensive end - what should be Mewtwo's best fit as defensive sets aren't worthwhile.

The argument comes down to why should anyone use this Pokemon, and if there isn't a good answer then its hardly A rank material. In terms of role compression this Pokemon doesn't really do anything, which is troublesome as slots are valuable. Offensive prowess? Not exemplarily either, especially when common mons such as P Don, Mega Sab, and Arc Ghost are a constant annoyance. In terms of other utility, there's next to nothing; it offers no hazard support, no anti hazard support, no status immunity, no Intimidate, no ground-immunity, no priority, and few switch-in opportunities.

In past generations like ADV Ubers the lack of role compression and utility wasn't an issue because team slots were much more flexible and Mewtwo could actually tear down teams better than most other Pokemon, but this isn't the case in ORAS. I guess it's a CM user that doesn't fear Ho-Oh, and I suppose you could use it to pressure specific defensive mons like Arc Ghost that your team was willing to trade for to eliminate, but I'm not sold. Examples of really good Mewtwo / MM2Y ORAS teams would be appreciated.