Serious Catalonia's independence

[Vineon]

The primary reason is generally one of language and culture, I'd assume, which your goals seems to be to belittle.

Then comes economical reasoning or at least economical framing.

And the US did secede from Britain mainly because of economical reasons so yes, you have seen that happen in your part of the globe. One could argue the resulting geography was in the US' best interest.

I'm not so sure whats laughable about a world with a bunch of smaller states that reflect national identities a bit more accurately rather than larger ones in which they collide.

 

[destinyunknown]

inflamatory

Sorry, WHAT?
Catalan is definetely NOT an invented language and it NEVER disappeared. Lol until the 15-16th century Catalans didn't even speak Spanish. Although the language was intended to disappear during the 18th century and especially from 1939-1975.

I'm not gonna bother arguing with someone who says such blatant bullshit. Study some history before opening a thread such as this, good afternoon.

The primary reason is generally one of language and culture, I'd assume.

Then comes economical reasoning.

(And the US did secede from Britain mainly because of economical reasons so yes, you have seen that happen in your part of the globe)

It's always been the other way around. Catalonian companies and businessmen have always been threatening with trying to get independence in order to get favours from the government. Catalonia has never been an independent country, they have just tried to look 'different' in order to get money.

 

[billymills]

True, they already have a good amount of Euros, as it's the currency they've been using.

However, there are several practical problems. Catalonia could happily use the currency for their own transactions, just as they could use seashells or rocks. There's no issues there. The issues are all international, very important given how much of Catalonia's business is internationally focused.

1) Currency has a lifespan. As a result the EU is constantly printing new bills to replace old bills that are no longer usable. I believe Euros last longer than dollars, but US money has a lifespan of between 5-10 years depending on denomination. Beyond this lifespan point - and possibly much sooner depending on how new their Euros are, Catalonia will need to create their own currency or start buying (which would likely be made impossible).

2) EU can print new bills and coins with modified designs and do trade-ins (this has already been happening throughout 2015 in the new Europa series). Don't offer trade-ins to Catalonians and refuse the use of old bills after a certain date. EU countries are already used to this procedure, as they all did it quite recently when they traded in their old national currencies for Euros and then made old bills invalid.

3) Less effective, but cheaper and easier, the EU could offer a trade-in program just for bills printed in Spain (which are /probably/ most of the bills in Catalonia), which are marked by a V in their serial number. Allow other Spaniards (and other EU members) to trade in their V series bills for a new Spanish A series and mark V series bills as invalid.

All of these would have the effect of making the Euros Catalonia already has useless for international transactions as "Euros." This does at least mean they have a usable currency and don't need to instantly spend money to create their own, but they still will need to eventually, since money wears out (see step 1).

Maybe Spain can block Catalonia from joining the EU, or the Eurozone, but can they really force the rest of the EU to implement ridiculous legislation? I can't imagine the rest of the EU would be willing to completely invalidate Euros based on serial number at a massive scale, nor discriminate trade-ins based on nationality.

I also don't really see other countries refusing to sell currency to Catalonia. Is this really something Spain can prevent unilaterally?

And more generally, is printing currency even that big a deal? Is it something that couldn't be handled by a more strict implementation of electronic currency (require certain stores to only accept cards as payment)?

 

[Vineon]

It's always been the other way around. Catalonian companies and businessmen have always been threatening with trying to get independence in order to get favours from the government. Catalonia has never been an independent country, they have just tried to look 'different' in order to get money.

I very much doubt their sole motivation for "looking different", which you seem to describe as fabrication (a fake language, a fake identity), is in order to get money.

I feel your posts are getting a bit ugly.

 

[destinyunknown]

I very much doubt their sole motivation for "looking different", which you seem to describe as fabrication (a fake language, a fake identity), is in order to get money.

I feel your posts are getting a bit ugly.

The language actually did exist in the middle ages but lost a lot of usage, and only saw a resurgence in the late 19th century, and while it isn't fake, many words were changed forcefully in order to look different from Spanish, and I put the 'chocolate vs xocolata' example because it's probably the most ridiculous, though there are other ones. At the end of the 19th century by the way, Catalonia was thriving thanks to the commerce with the Americas. However, when Spain lost its colonies, Catalonia lost their main source of income, and businessmen started to think being part of Spain wasn't good for them. Due to this reason, the main businessmen in Catalonia took an interest in promoting the ''being different to the rest'' and rebelling when the rest of the country needed soldiers / money for the war. Thanks to this, the governments were forced to make the taxes lower for Catalonian products.

That's not all and many other things happened, but one thing is clear, Catalonia has never been an independent country. The zone currently known as Catalonia was just some little kingdoms with little relation between them in the early middle ages, then became part of the Crown of Aragon, and finally, the Crown of Aragon formed together with the Crown of Castilla what is known today as Spain. So there's not a real ''different identity''. Catalonian culture is also not much different to the one of the nearby zones in Spain. Every region has something that differentiates it from the rest, but Catalonia isn't an exception in that.

 

[Vineon]

In the end, what really matters is how they feel. As opposed to how you feel. If Catalans is what they identify themselves as primarly then it happens to be what they are. That Catalonia has never been a country before really shouldn't matter.

And a different language is actually a pretty large distinction I feel, especially in Europe where most of the continent is mostly divided by language groups. There is only one Spanish country in Europe after all. Perhaps there should be a Catalan one, should they want it.

 

[destinyunknown]

In the end, what really matters is how they feel. As opposed to how you feel. If Catalans is what they identify themselves as primarly then it happens to be what they are. That Catalonia has never been a country before really shouldn't matter.

And a different language is actually a pretty large distinction I feel, especially in Europe where most of the continent is mostly divided by language groups. There is only one Spanish country in Europe after all. Perhaps there should be a Catalan one, should they want it.

And I am not saying otherwise. I wouldn't care about it, if it weren't because people that feel proud of being both Catalonian and Spanish are being harassed and pushed out. In Catalonia, if you want to express yourself, and your ideas aren't pro-independence, you have to use a seudonym when they publish due to fear of losing your job (or worse). Language isn't an actual barrier because all people in Catalonia speak Spanish (but not all speak Catalonian however). The other problem, and the reason why I am explaining the lack of actual motives to ask for independence, is that the Catalonian goverments in the last 15-20 years have tried to force Catalonian culture and marginalise the people that don't go along with that.

So I ask, do only the Catalonians that want the independence deserve ''having their own country''? What about the other 50% of Catalonians that don't want it? Is it fair that they don't have freedom of speech? Is it fair that they are marginalized, and will be marginalized even more if Catalonia becomes an independent country?

 

[Bughouse]

Maybe Spain can block Catalonia from joining the EU, or the Eurozone, but can they really force the rest of the EU to implement ridiculous legislation? I can't imagine the rest of the EU would be willing to completely invalidate Euros based on serial number at a massive scale, nor discriminate trade-ins based on nationality.

I also don't really see other countries refusing to sell currency to Catalonia. Is this really something Spain can prevent unilaterally?

Most other European countries (especially big daddy Germany, who has the most votes in the European Parliament) don't want to see a separatist movement work well because it inspires copycats, and most every country has some group that wants out. Bavaria wants out of Germany to some degree, for example. Kosovo is another obvious example, which tried to separate and most countries just don't even recognize as independent. Arguments about who's a part of what country are not good for the EU's mission of a united Europe.

 

[billymills]

Kosovo is recognized by 23 of 28 EU states, including Germany (and not including Spain). Bavarian independence rarely gets over 2% of the popular vote.

I don't think you've addressed my point.

 

[UncleSam]

What does it matter whether they should or shouldn't be their own country. What matters is that they lack the capability to secede from Spain as well as either the military strength or the legal basis with which to appeal to other potential EU allies for aid.

There's no way Spain will let Catalan go and no way anyone else sticks their neck out for a 53% majority. Whether they ought to be able to secede is a philosophical question; the simple fact is they can't at this time.

 

[jumpluff]

What does it matter whether they should or shouldn't be their own country. What matters is that they lack the capability to secede from Spain as well as either the military strength or the legal basis with which to appeal to other potential EU allies for aid.

There's no way Spain will let Catalan go and no way anyone else sticks their neck out for a 53% majority. Whether they ought to be able to secede is a philosophical question; the simple fact is they can't at this time.

I'm not sure why you're trying to shut down discussion (which I personally found interesting and informative, knowing little about Catalonia) to reiterate a point you already made. The philosophical question matters and continues to matter in part pragmatically because many separatist movements throughout the EU and the world will continue to make independence bids, in situations where the debate may not be shut down purely by inevitability, in part because for anything pragmatic to change those structures that may prevent Catalan independence there must also be a philosophical debate as well as serious action, and in part because it's interesting. It certainly matters to the Spanish/Catalonians. I'd also argue that the situation of various separatist movements and their relations to the geopolitical zones they're associated with is hella important in general given the current disputes that are held over sovereignty, even ignoring its own intrinsic importance to itself and to the situation of those in Catalonia.

I don't think all separatist movements are all equal for the reason I don't think all nationalism is equal but personally I thought the matters raised so far are all worthy lines of inquiry.

 

[UncleSam]

I'm not trying to shut down discussion I'm re-iterating a point because no one countered it previously and I was hoping someone would. If no one does then it'll serve to frame the discussion as a philosophical one, which not everyone is interested in. Action never really arises from philosophy in my opinion; occasionally philosophy will inspire dogmatism which will incite the people into revolution, but examples of philosophy inspiring change are pretty much limited to interactions between Britain and it's former colonies (and even those interactions, such as with India, could be argued to not really be philosophically driven) as far as I know. I'm open to being persuaded that it matters, however.

As for the Catalonians, what matters are their own interests, not whether the rest of the world agrees they 'should' be able to be independent but not in their current circumstances.

 

[Bughouse]

Kosovo is recognized by 23 of 28 EU states, including Germany (and not including Spain). Bavarian independence rarely gets over 2% of the popular vote.

I don't think you've addressed my point.

billymills Kosovo receives support for humanitarian reasons. There was a borderline genocide. Catalonia has had no such thing happen (at least not since Franco, who had a habit of killing most everyone).

And there are plenty of other examples with more support than Bavaria that I could have said. Even just limiting myself to Western Europe I could say Cornwall, Basque Country, Galicia, South Tyrol, Corsica, Åland, Flanders... I could go on. Separatist movements are common across Europe.

In any case, no other country besides Spain is needed to keep Catalonia out of the EU. Any constitutional change has to be approved by all member states. Spain alone can veto. Greece and Bulgaria have kept Macedonia out. Anyone could keep Kosovo out (especially Serbia, if Serbia got in first). Charles de Gaulle vetoed British membership at first, even. The next president Pompidou had to change France's position.

What I don't know is how the procedure to be allowed to be in the Eurozone (when not an EU member) works. The formal EU policy is that only EU states can use the Euro. The only countries not in the EU allowed to use the Euro at the moment are the tiny ones, Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, and the Vatican, which is just practical.

Kosovo and Montenegro also use the Euro, but their cases are very unique and they have no formal agreement. They're relying on just the Euros they have already circulating. And the ECB DOES say they're not happy about it.

Could Catalonia try to do this too? Sure. Could the EU react to it in defense of their monetary policy? Absolutely. Manipulating another country's currency could easily be characterized as an act of war.

At the end of the day I think losing the Euro would be inevitable. Someone else pointed out business leaving the region, which is an even likelier outcome if the Euro is lost. All in all, separating is economically disastrous for Catalonians.

 

[dsm77773]

And I am not saying otherwise. I wouldn't care about it, if it weren't because people that feel proud of being both Catalonian and Spanish are being harassed and pushed out. In Catalonia, if you want to express yourself, and your ideas aren't pro-independence, you have to use a seudonym when they publish due to fear of losing your job (or worse). Language isn't an actual barrier because all people in Catalonia speak Spanish (but not all speak Catalonian however). The other problem, and the reason why I am explaining the lack of actual motives to ask for independence, is that the Catalonian goverments in the last 15-20 years have tried to force Catalonian culture and marginalise the people that don't go along with that.

Oh wait, were have you heard that? Yeah language is not a barrier, but I disagree qith the government part. Intolerance goes both ways as well. There is no discrimination to not-pro-independentism people, well, not at such a degree, while catalanofobia (hate to pro-indepententism) as extended to all the country. As I said intolerance goes both ways and this is not helping either side.
The Spanish government isn't much better either, they've threatened us repeatedly (even getting to say they'll send us tanks if needed!) and compared us with nazism. The popular reply is that more and more people are joining the pro-independentism movement, and I'm pretty sure that if that didn't happen, we wouldn't be discussing this.
Furthermore, some of the new laws are actually limiting our freedom of speech. Youmight have to pay a fine just for talking bad about the government or to promote independence. That's more proper of a dictator than of democracy. (EDIT: Note that this law affects Spain as a whole and not only Catalonia)

So I ask, do only the Catalonians that want the independence deserve ''having their own country''? What about the other 50% of Catalonians that don't want it? Is it fair that they don't have freedom of speech? Is it fair that they are marginalized, and will be marginalized even more if Catalonia becomes an independent country?

This is not about deserving having their own country, is "having our own country is worth this?".
While not-pro-independence people do have freedom of speech, they should talk now or never. They're not marginalized, but if they become marginalized if Catalonia becames an state, then independence is not worth it. Catalonia should represent both sides no matter what.

 

[destinyunknown]

Furthermore, some of the new laws are actually limiting our freedom of speech. Youmight have to pay a fine just for talking bad about the government or to promote independence. That's more proper of a dictator than of democracy. (EDIT: Note that this law affects Spain as a whole and not only Catalonia)

This is not about deserving having their own country, is "having our own country is worth this?".
While not-pro-independence people do have freedom of speech, they should talk now or never. They're not marginalized, but if they become marginalized if Catalonia becames an state, then independence is not worth it. Catalonia should represent both sides no matter what.

As you said, the first thing affects the whole of Spain, and nobody is happy with it in any part of Spain.


As for the freedom of speech of not-pro-independence people, I am sorry but it doesn't exist. I personally know a couple of columnists that have been forced to write under a seudonym due to being threatened. The only people that can show an anti-independence point of view in Catalonia without fear of losing their job or suffering acts of violence are probably politicians (for now...) and people that don't live in Catalonia anymore (eg: Pau Gasol). I also do know a case of a college student who got beaten up after showing his views on independence in public. And that's just what I know, various cases of this type of violence have appeared on the news over the last years.

 

[Vineon]

Is there really just not a proper term for "not-pro-independence people"?

 

[dsm77773]

As you said, the first thing affects the whole of Spain, and nobody is happy with it in any part of Spain.

That's what I'm complaining about.

As for the freedom of speech of not-pro-independence people, I am sorry but it doesn't exist. I personally know a couple of columnists that have been forced to write under a seudonym due to being threatened. The only people that can show an anti-independence point of view in Catalonia without fear of losing their job or suffering acts of violence are probably politicians (for now...) and people that don't live in Catalonia anymore (eg: Pau Gasol). I also do know a case of a college student who got beaten up after showing his views on independence in public. And that's just what I know, various cases of this type of violence have appeared on the news over the last years.

Intolerance goes both ways I'm afraid, I already said that, maybe I just wasn't clear enough. That's not helping either side at all. Pro-independentism people get opressed by the government and I know cases the other way round: a woman whose "Estelada" (pro-independence flag) was burned and she was lucky the whole house didn't. On the 9th November voting, two not-pro-independentism entered in a school and tried to ruin the voting, they were stopped by members of a rugby team that were voting at that moment.

Is there really just not a proper term for "not-pro-independence people"?

I'm sure there's a better word for this, but I just don't know it. You know I'm not native, and I got only a decent level of English.

 

[UncleSam]

How about 'anti-independence'?

Not saying this is an official name but surely it would make this less confusing.

Also with respect to intolerance of other viewpoints, generally it garners little sympathy with the international community to say 'but they do it too!' That means very little and does not address the problem raised with the independence movement stifling opposing speech or viewpoints (I have no clue whether this assertion is true or not by the way, but if it is then I've not seen it adequate addressed).

 

[Vineon]

Something like Scotland's "unionists" would be much better.

 

[Aldaron]

It seems you guys are going back and forth discussing whether something is justified in happening due to ideological concerns and whether something should or is likely to happen due to practical concerns.

Not that discussing both within context is bad but I'm seeing posts that say it should happen for ideological concerns countered by posts saying it shouldn't happen for practical concerns.

Like, I understand countering an ideological point with a practical one and prefacing with "ignoring the ideology behind this, this can't happen for x, y, and z," but I feel like it's more fruitful to not ignore the ideology and discuss the ideology separate from the practical concerns.

Also, there are some posts in here that are unnecessarily rude / flamey...relax people.

 

[JES]

Furthermore, some of the new laws are actually limiting our freedom of speech. Youmight have to pay a fine just for talking bad about the government or to promote independence. That's more proper of a dictator than of democracy. (EDIT: Note that this law affects Spain as a whole and not only Catalonia)

Ouch! I'd raise a huge fuss if they did that in my country. Like I'd demand those responsible to be taken out of power.

 

[Bughouse]

18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection
"Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

I'd have to see the Spanish laws in question, but government limits on speech that leads to action (aka incites) are common across the globe.

 

[boo836]

There's no way in hell Spain (or the other major European countries) will let this happen without a massive majority. 72/135 is not nearly enough to secure independence. If there were a near-universal outcry from the region that they wanted to be sovereign then I'm sure other countries would listen, but this is way too close for anyone outside of Catalonia to get behind, and as such the Spanish government will quell this easily. There's no way England or Germany or anyone else will go against Spanish national law for the sake of 53% of Catalonian voters.

In other words, nothing is going to happen. Maybe the leaders will be arrested but more likely independence will be declared illegal, and things will remain exactly as they are currently. Catalonia has no legal basis nor force of arms upon which to enforce independence, and no possible allies against the overwhelming majority of Spanish citizens, for whom losing Catalonia would be disastrous economically.

Hopefully this doesn't end with an assassination or mass imprisonment of chief secession leaders but I wouldn't rule it out; that would be a pretty stupid move by the Madrid government though, since that's basically the only way that other powers would back this movement. They will probably continue to treat this exactly as they have been treating it and just ignore it while affirming that it is in fact illegal, because there's really nothing that Catalonia can do about it.

Spain would be embarrassed if it resorted to declaring bans on speech and thought. We're talking about a country still reeling from fascism, and you think action of that scope and scale would go over well?

But I came here to argue that it makes a lot of economic sense to drop the Euro. As it stands, Spain's trade deficit is astounding. It's a better idea to drop a high Euro in favour of a smaller currency, lest they perpetuate Spain, Italy, and Greece's economic woes

 

[jumpluff]

Don't really understand this insistence on acting like there is not philosophy behind 'pragmatism' or current world conditions from UncleSam and Aldaron. Action is guided by ideas as much as ideas are guided by action. The systems upon which the geopolitics of this situation are predicated both originated in and are maintained philosophically. Bughouse just posted a super concise example without even explaining the philosophy behind it. I agree that whether it can happen now is different to whether it should but don't see why they should necessarily be divorced.

boo836 I think Spain would be more embarrassed to lose Catalonia than to repress them (for the same reason you think the inverse, namely that Spain has a pretty recent fascist history), particularly if it did not gain much attention outside of Europe. Countries are still pretty sensitive about Territory. Agreed that dropping the Euro might not be the worst thing in the world for the Catalonians, but what would their trade prospects look like after independence?

 

[Aldaron]

Don't really understand this insistence on acting like there is not philosophy behind 'pragmatism' or current world conditions from UncleSam and Aldaron. Action is guided by ideas as much as ideas are guided by action. The systems upon which the geopolitics of this situation are predicated both originated in and are maintained philosophically. Bughouse just posted a super concise example without even explaining the philosophy behind it. I agree that whether it can happen now is different to whether it should but don't see why they should necessarily be divorced.

boo836 I think Spain would be more embarrassed to lose Catalonia than to repress them (for the same reason you think the inverse, namely that Spain has a pretty recent fascist history), particularly if it did not gain much attention outside of Europe. Countries are still pretty sensitive about Territory. Agreed that dropping the Euro might not be the worst thing in the world for the Catalonians, but what would their trade prospects look like after independence?

You didn't get my point.

I'm not saying there isn't ideology behind pragmatism. Every action (well almost every) has reasoning / ideology behind it, lol.

I am saying using pragmatic reasoning based on ideologies that aren't related to the originally presented ideological point to counter that ideological reasoning won't get anyone anywhere.

I guess I could have been more explicit and said "using pragmatic reasoning using different ideological backing than the ideologies being presented is pointless," but I assumed that was obvious.

I even mentioned that I understand using pragmatic reasons to counter ideology so long as the context (same ideological conversation, or ignoring the ideology presented by the first) was appropriate.

For example, Vincent is using the ideology of culture and language to argue pro liberation, while others are countering using the practical geopolitical points brought up that are based in economic ideology, not the cultural ideology Vincent was mentioning. Only after some flaming / harsh words did one of the posters resort to responding about the cultural points Vincent brought up.

It just so happens that when people talk casually that things like language and culture are thrown in the ideology category and things like economic viability are thrown in the pragmatic category. Both can obvious be both ideological and pragmatic...but what point is there in responding to a cultural claim with economic ones? Sure, you can argue the importance of each, and that is certainly one way to go , but what I was seeing was simply "point based on ideology A brought up, countered by point based on ideology B. " Little commentary on why B is more important than A. Little commentary on why A is more important than B. Without either, who cares about either point? It's just stating things.

I'm not going to get into ideology vs. pragmatic categorization but those were simply labels I attached to the points. Those words aren't significant at all. If Vincent is going to bring up a point on culture, a fruitful discussion would either have counterpoints based on culture or discuss why culture isn't as important as social / economic / whatever concerns.