Serious US Election Thread (read post #2014)

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termi

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OR

good
  • immigration reform
  • not putting up with gender dysphoria bullshit
  • no bullshit epa
  • no cancerous aca
  • isn't going to cuck out to environmentalists and EU
  • isn't corrupt
  • represents american dream
Whether you call this good depends on whether you are anti-LGBT, anti-science (humans do fuck up the environment, this has been proven by countless studies and to deny their legitimacy is unworldly), anti-statistics in general (read this (thanks veiva) to see why privatized health care is not a good idea at all) and finally does not not understand that the american dream is an outdated and infeasible concept. Basically, what I'm trying to say that if you consider all of these things good, you're probably stuck in the mindset of the Americans of a few centuries ago.

If you want me to give any further explanation on my points, go ahead and ask, I'm not really in the mood to write an essay featuring arguments and shit to prove why most of these points are fucking terrible (and it's not like you gave any arguments either lmao).

Finally, don't use the word "cuck" if you don't know what it even means. Most people who use it seem to target any left wing policy with it and aim to destroy any sort of discussion with this incorrectly used buzzword. Refrain from using it and maybe use actual arguments instead.
 
OR

good
  • immigration reform
  • not putting up with gender dysphoria bullshit
  • no bullshit epa
  • no cancerous aca
  • isn't going to cuck out to environmentalists and EU
  • isn't corrupt
  • represents american dream
That is complete...you know what? Forget it!! I'm not going to get into an argument with you!!! I think all we can agree is that our views are almost completely different!
 
To say that 'the world is going to shit' as a result of climate change is as meaningless as it is false, and to me is on precisely the same level as Republicans who deny the existence of anthropomorphic climate change altogether, because they arise from the same mindset of ignorance.
Not sure if this applies to me (since I did claim anthropogenic climate change is "the most important global issue facing humanity and modern life"), but my remark was in a context of the bad policies Republicans espouse. I'm well aware that the best measures we can take are reactionary. Even still, the sheer cost, among all measures, is exceedingly high even now, because, in brief:

  1. Anyone living on land that's at risk of rising oceans will have to migrate. Even assuming modern water control techniques are used to combat flooding temporarily, there are many places it's simply not an option, such as Florida; due to porous limestone, pretty much the entire state will flood because the water will literally come out of the ground.
  2. Better sustainable farming methods in less favorable environments, because fertile farming lands are rendered useless by drought or less favorable weather (or, again, rising oceans).
  3. In general, worse weather conditions, namely droughts and severe storms.
  4. Security issues as foreign regions (and domestic regions, assuming points 1-3 aren't dealt with) are destabilized due to inaction or inability to preemptively handle the issues above. It's reasonable to think that we're seeing this today in places like Syria.
  5. Massive changes in ecosystems, leading to mass extinctions. Most terribly, this is unavoidable, no matter what we do (unless we can reverse warming itself). Increased CO2 doesn't just mean life dies to increased temperatures, either; increases in ocean CO2 means higher acidity, which is disastrous for many ocean life (coral being a common example).
Not acting, or acting too late, will cost humanity more than preemptive measures. Migrating millions of people now is cheaper than when infrastructure is at-risk and entire swathes of land are already flooding. Similarly, ensuring productive and sustainable farming is possible in advance means famine won't be an issue. And of course, equivalent sentiments for the other points.

I liken it to universal healthcare, which is ridiculed as being "free" healthcare by the right (followed by an almost meme-like question of "Who do you think is going to pay for it?"). In the case of universal healthcare provided by the government, compared to the other option of private healthcare or nothing, both options have an inherent cost. In the former, everyone pays into a pool via some tax, but everyone can receive adequate care; in the latter, those who can't afford healthcare cost society in many forms (loss of labor, cultivation and then spread of dangerous sicknesses with large cost of life or productivity, and also long-term costs such as mental illness and physical disabilities). Funnily enough, the latter ends up costing more than a one-payer system, making the GOP's do-nothing alternative costlier.

Similarly, I have equal distaste for many seemingly popular liberal positions that have no realistic basis, including:
  • Extreme reductions in the military budget. I agree with Eisenhower's warning about the military-industrial complex, but that's a different issue compared to better utilization of our existing military. Instead, we should have better oversight, much tighter contractor accountability and regulation, more sensible budgeting requirements/guidelines, and better utilization of the current labor potential. Cutting the budget won't fix anything, it's a band-aid and could very well cause more problems in the future.
  • Stricter gun laws in reaction to gun crime. Logistically it makes no sense and it's a band-aid solution yet again; instead, we should work to improve education in poorer areas, reduce poverty and improve income mobility, have better mental health facilities/treatment, and work to rehabilitate existing criminals to keep them from recommitting (I have zero-tolerance for zero-tolerance policies, har).
  • Extreme "green" policies (yes, otherwise liberal movements oppose nuclear; just because anti-environment groups/corporations do as well doesn't mean it's absent among liberal thinkers). The stupid hatred for nuclear energy is beyond words, considering nuclear energy is a crap-ton better than coal/natural gas. It's also more efficient than solar/wind/water, especially in places that make solar/wind/water unfeasible. The same goes for insanely expensive carbon reduction regulations; we need to work towards energy sustainability, yes, but it's not something that can be done overnight.
  • Open-border immigration policies. Ideally, yes, borders are a hurtful concept in some global sense, but idealism isn't always practical. In many ways, open-borders hurts citizens (see companies using temporary visas to replace American citizens and immigrants simply refusing to immigrate integrate into their new country in Europe) and even immigrants (i.e., less pay/benefits for an immigrant compared to a citizen, some cruel kind of indentured servitude [see temporary visas; "accept your position or go back to your country"]). I'd like to note I find open-trade equally bad, since companies can abuse workers in other countries (including slavery, violence/intimidation [such as using militias in third-world countries], horrible/fatal working conditions, child labor, and overall terrible working conditions and destruction of existing livelihoods) at a distance and without repercussion.
This also includes common sentiments that aren't quite policies, such as:
  • "We should have let the banks fail." No, that would have been dramatically worse, especially the common worker. Instead, we should (and did) bail them out. However, we should have begun implementing policies to prevent this in the future, including breaking the banks down gradually. The burden would be spread out over a longer time period, and we could have fixed, or at least been on the road to fixing it. Instead, the banks have since become bigger. Great.
  • The reverse-Orwellian privilege/victim phenomena. Overt self-censorship is just as bad as Trump or Carson spewing their hateful nonsense. Similarly, rejection of individual responsibility is just as extreme as rejection of the social pressures that mold an individual and his actions. Hate is bad in any direction. I feel the cliched SJW phenomena is reserved for (albeit very loud) minorities in these groups, but I'd like to point out that the majority can also be just as loud in presenting a better platform without extreme ideologies while also rejecting these atypical individuals...
  • "Everyone is special!" and participation trophies. In some technical sense, yes, everyone is unique. However, not everyone is equally capable, either due to genetics, upbringing, traumatic events, whatever; life isn't fair. However, as a society, we should work towards make the "starting point" as fair as possible. From there, nurture passions, offer education and advice, and reward competency and hard work.
  • Hypocrisy in regards to religions other than Christianity and non-Western cultures. I am anti-religion, and therefore show no favor to any religion. It's a disservice to point out flaws in Christianity, while ignoring equally terrible, and many times worse, flaws in other religions. Pointing out how Islam promotes anti-progressive measures isn't Islamaphobic, it's the reality of the situation. The same goes for other world religions, and the logic applies to other cultures with anti-progressive values. In a similar vein, atheism/anti-religion views are just as senseless as religious ones when critical thinking is rejected (see anti-vaxxers, alternative medicine, anti-nuclear/extreme-green, emotions/feelings over facts/logic, etc).
I'd also like to add that being absolutely rude/aggressive/confrontational isn't a good debating method (relates to the reverse-Orwellian point above, I suppose), but that's a common method between both Democrats and Republicans, left-wing and right-wing, and pretty much any two opposing thoughts. An example can be found above (Myzozoa's post); yes, the content of his/her argument is correct, but the delivery far from proper, which creates unneeded hatred/turmoil... Yes, while UncleSam's post was confrontational and generalizing, this does not mean replying in kind is right.
 
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Aldaron

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ok i'm deleting various posts in the last page that just take this thread completely off rails and turn this into another "let wackos spew off" iteration

For something exceedingly simple to get it back on track...what did you think about Hillary's Benghazi hearing and what do you think about the media's follow ups (left side claiming a "big win" for her, going so far as to saying that + Biden dropping has her swiftly with all the momentum Bernie had taken previously, and right side saying she got away with lying)

that said thank you veiva for not being one of those wackos, your posts honestly are a pleasure to read
 
Just curious, what do you guys think of the Republican debate last night? I just want to get some thoughts.
I'm decently right wing on the political spectrum, which isn't common with most of the folks here, so getting my perspective may be useful.

I'm actually not too upset with what CNBC did. Sure, they may have intended to make the Republicans look like some joke and just have constant in-fighting, but in-reality, it showed how much comradery the Republicans have in-terms of fighting this incredibly biased media, as well as showing just how good each candidate is on their issues. (at least, economically, CNBC asked jack on foreign policy) It definitely shows people that Republicans have a serious chance of winning this election, and I personally like that.

In-terms of the candidates, Marco Rubio held his own quite well, and I can respect that, even though I disagree with a few of his foreign policy decisions, and enough to where he isn't my ideal candidate, but I actually think Ted Cruz stood out the most in this debate. He was the first man to bring out the obvious bias in the questions that were meant to provoke infighting rather than the substance the candidates have. He correctly responded well to bias that people, generally on the far left, brought up like the absurd 77 pay gap myth, and responded with his own personal life with a single mother and how none of the plans that the Democratic nominee have brought up thus far has done anything for women. (Fiorina did this as well, but Cruz's response was far more personal and garnered my attention) He also endorsed Rand Paul's economic policies to reduce payroll taxes while emphasizing the fact that the IRS needs to go, which I personally believe is absolutely awesome and I would love to see in action. Speaking of Rand Paul, he did excellent given the amount of time he had, his economic policies and him bringing up the idea that we should be able to audit the federal reserve was amazing, he's still my #1 choice. Fiorina was also very good on economic policies, and I like how she emphasized on how this convulated tax code doesn't make a huge difference to big businesses but severely handicaps the middle class. That being said, I still can't support her unless she takes back what she says about bombing Russia. Trump is Trump, he did well and I'm glad to see that, no surprise there. Ben Carson got low speak time, but what he said about political correctness was spot-on. Everybody else did well, but nothing spectacular.

That's basically about it for me, I'm sure people here will give you quite a different response, so I felt like I should give mine out. :P
 
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brightobject

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A reporter asked Ted Cruz what should be done about the debt limit and he responded that the new media was too biased in asking questions about irrelevant issues. This makes me angry. to say the least. Biased media or not, you should be doing your best to answer the questions given during a debate, instead of ignoring the questions and instead attacking the moderators of the debate.

I do think your point that certain issues went unaddressed is important, but regardless of whether or not it was conducted incorrectly, the reaction by the candidates was petulant and rather immature.

I'm relatively uncertain as to what they actually want...questions like 'Talk about how awesome you are?' It's one thing to be mad that certain questions aren't being asked. It's another thing altogether to be mad that questions are too 'hard.'
 
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A reporter asked Ted Cruz what should be done about the debt limit and he responded that the new media was too biased in asking questions about irrelevant issues. This makes me angry. to say the least. Biased media or not, you should be doing your best to answer the questions given during a debate, instead of ignoring the questions and instead attacking the moderators of the debate.

I do think your point that certain issues went unaddressed is important, but regardless of whether or not it was conducted incorrectly, the reaction by the candidates was petulant and rather immature.

I'm relatively uncertain as to what they actually want...questions like 'Talk about how awesome you are?' It's one thing to be mad that certain questions aren't being asked. It's another thing altogether to be mad that questions are too 'hard.'
The reporter asked it in a way that would've made Ted Cruz look like an enemy had he answered, had the reporter said "What do you think should be done about the debt limit?" there would be no problem.

The reporters were acting quite stupid, they deserved to be called out otherwise CNBC would've made the Republicans look like a joke. Carson is the second most successful candidate so far and all they gave him were the silliest of questions, one of which about him supporting a company that supports gay marriage to try to make Carson look like some massive homophobe for heavens sake, and I think we can all say that talking about actual foreign policies is far more important.

I haven't seen Republicans just refusing to answer/getting angry over questions that aren't trying to bring said candidate(s) down. Donald Trump, one of the candidates most accused of just being an irrational dick, has answered truly unbiased questions (the interview he had with Don Lemon on 9/30/15 is a good example of this) without getting angry at the person at the question. The questions at the CNBC debate were worded in such a way that had they simply answered they would be given such a bad rep. This doesn't seem like such a hard concept to understand, and it seems like a concept that a person in any political spectrum would understand, but I don't think a good portion of people do.
 

Soul Fly

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1. Could CNBC moderators have perhaps gone out of their way to ensure the questions weren't patronising? Sure.
2. Did the questions egg candidates to attack each other? Obviously. It's a televised debate dummy. Grow some balls.
3. Were the questions baseless/non-substantiative/biased? Nop.
4. In what scenario would any answer to such confrontational questions give bad rep in any and all circumstances? If your policy stance is borderline retarded.

The CNBC debate was probably the first time that the candidates were seriously grilled about their over-the-top agendas. And if any attempt to question it sounds like an attack it just goes to show how outlandish most of the tax-plans and foreign policy that the GOP has propped itself upon. Probably obviously in response to the increasingly absurd hardline stances of Trump (and Carson to some degree) making them hilariously our of touch to with any (realistic) attempts at a usually more moderate brand of politics. Any attempt to question most of these ludicrous policies will sound like an attack.

As for the questions, aggressive or not they were very substantive. However Carson and Trump gave answers that ranged from laughably vague to absurd non-sequiturs when asked about their budget and immigration stances (Trump in one case lied straight-up to a moderator on the H1B visa question). Jeb Bush fumbled, Rubio dodged uncomfortable ones with the same whiny complaints, and Fiorina tried poise herself as a champion for women but instead probably convinced everyone she was on drugs with that hilariously false statistic about how 92% of the laid off workers in the 2008 crisis were women or something.
And most ironically Ted Cruz's wildly popular lambast came ironically as an invited response to again a rather substantial question asking why he opposed the bipartisan budget deal (which he obviously didn't answer). No doubt smart popularity move, also completely on bad faith.

But sure, please continue believing in your tinfoil theories of the paid biased media. Let's have Fox host all future GOP debates with the candidates thrown politically corrrect meatballs.
 
The reporter asked it in a way that would've made Ted Cruz look like an enemy had he answered, had the reporter said "What do you think should be done about the debt limit?" there would be no problem.

The reporters were acting quite stupid, they deserved to be called out otherwise CNBC would've made the Republicans look like a joke. Carson is the second most successful candidate so far and all they gave him were the silliest of questions, one of which about him supporting a company that supports gay marriage to try to make Carson look like some massive homophobe for heavens sake, and I think we can all say that talking about actual foreign policies is far more important.

I haven't seen Republicans just refusing to answer/getting angry over questions that aren't trying to bring said candidate(s) down. Donald Trump, one of the candidates most accused of just being an irrational dick, has answered truly unbiased questions (the interview he had with Don Lemon on 9/30/15 is a good example of this) without getting angry at the person at the question. The questions at the CNBC debate were worded in such a way that had they simply answered they would be given such a bad rep. This doesn't seem like such a hard concept to understand, and it seems like a concept that a person in any political spectrum would understand, but I don't think a good portion of people do.
Yeah, most of the questions were worded in a way to demonize the gop. Really unfair that these important debates are being shitted up with liberal bias and hidden agendas.
 

toshimelonhead

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Yeah, most of the questions were worded in a way to demonize the gop. Really unfair that these important debates are being shitted up with liberal bias and hidden agendas.
FFS CNBC is NOT a liberal channel - they have Rick Santelli who sparked the movement of the Tea Party and Larry "I only believe in supply-side economics" Kudlow. Even Becky Quick bashed Paul Krugman before the 2012 election when Krugman claimed the United States does not have a problem with the national debt. What CNBC IS, however, is a group of journalists who know what they are talking about when it comes to American business and have the cajones to call candidates out when they are flat out lying. And they caught Donald Trump, Marco Rubio, and Ben Carson red-handed. I tried to use as conservative of sources as possible for the hyperlinks, too.

/end rant
 
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  1. Anyone living on land that's at risk of rising oceans will have to migrate. Even assuming modern water control techniques are used to combat flooding temporarily, there are many places it's simply not an option, such as Florida; due to porous limestone, pretty much the entire state will flood because the water will literally come out of the ground.
This applies especially to me, since I live in Florida. If most of the scientists are right, if the Koch brothers get their way, the home I'm currently living in will end up underwater.
Of course, if that happens, there will be a lot of pissed off people, and I'm hoping that if the Koch brothers and the rest of the Big Oil CEOs aren't put away for the rest of their lives for corruption and destroying the environment, the people whose lives will be ruined will take the law into their own hands. I know very damn well that this is an extreme point of view, but for those of us who could lose our homes to climate change if action can be taken, beating the bastards within at least an inch of their lives for using their money to bribe politicians to ignore the issue, just so that they can be lazy and not develop more environmentally friendly energy sources/rake in even more money, seems rather reasonable.
Any candidate who refuses to address climate change will not get my vote, and I hope doesn't get elected. And I pretty much agree with the rest of your post as well.
 
For anyone considering voting for Bernie I'd consider looking at this photo of his donors, it'll change your entire understanding of his character and expose him for the fraud he truly is.

If that is an actual website I want your source, as fraudulent as it may be
 
If that is an actual website I want your source, as fraudulent as it may be
It's a jest edit of https://www.opensecrets.org/ data. Pretty much just using some Firebug-like tool to edit the names of the donors (the amounts are pretty much the same, just older data I guess).

Here is Bernie Sanders's actual data.

And here is Hillary Clinton's data.

For the record, that site is pretty helpful and could give people a better idea on the interests of the candidates. There's a lot of data.

Edit: Did anyone vote in their local elections Tuesday? Especially with the political climate, more immediate progress can be made in local elections than presidential.

In my area (Cumberland County, NC), turnout was an amazing (/s) 14.3%. The incumbent mayor of Fayetteville won, sadly--and only by 673 votes. I'm certain youth apathy was the reason, which is terrible. I was #92 to vote in my voting area at 10:00 am-ish (voting began four hours prior). Of the few who voted around my time (an older man and three older women), I was by far the youngest by at least 20 years.

If a small portion of youths in Fayetteville had voted in their interests (say 10% of those between ages 18 to 24, or 5% of those ages 18 to 29), the incumbent would have lost.

For the record, the incumbent had some poor policy decisions, including using increased property taxes to increase the police budget (a poor usage of the funds if lowering crime is a priority in our local case) and poor vision for a future Fayetteville (considering the restructuring of the military, Ft. Bragg isn't the giant job creator anymore). The opposition had a much better idea for the future (essentially aligning Fayetteville with the Research Triangle by promoting and incentivizing the tech/medical sector) and also better insight into reducing crime.

So! Voting in just the presidential elections is a waste of time. Vote in your local elections, vote in your state elections, and vote in federal elections (including mid-terms!). Apathy is a ridiculous excuse, especially in non-federal elections, when the vote can be decided by a tiny portion of interested individuals. Not voting, all things considered, is worse than voting against your interests.
 
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Chou Toshio

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So, I am a middle upper-class straight Christian male with what I consider socially conservative views, a strong belief in the efficiency and necessity of free markets, small government, and the need for dedication to education and hard work to achieve the American dream, just as three generations of Asian Americans ahead of me believed in. I also have a degree in economics.

However, I do believe in moderation, and sanity-- the result is this:



I would NOT call myself a socialist, but I guess I'd be happy being called whatever Bernie Sanders is called. Better than being called whatever the fuck Carson is (9%).
 
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Chou Toshio cool link. My results are below. I pretty much already knew this, but it was a fun exercise. Too bad there's no "what do you think the pyramids were for question to make Carson go away.
Screen Shot 2015-11-11 at 10.09.55 PM.png


I think Rand really shined in last night's debate. Hopefully Kasich, Fiorina, Jeb(!) will quit.
 
Might as well send my results as well.

As for the debate, Rand Paul freaking won this; he absolutely crushed Rubio and Fiorina. Kasich and Jeb need to get out, they're just wasting slots and their money as they have a 0% chance of beating the election. Trump did fine, a derp on China but he still got
his point across, I expect the fact that Trump now officially stated that he's focusing on economic issues and immigration (though I consider that to be considerably an economic issue, though social as well) and stating that we can't afford to have America be the policemen of the world give Trump more votes from undecided/independent voters as well. (Alas, my parents main concern with Trump has disappeared) Ted Cruz did a good job, but nothing fantastic. Carson wasn't even there.

I'm very proud of the moderators; they did a good job in making sure the questions ask were tough, but not designed to make a candidate look bad. People had a good amount of time to answer substantive questions, and seeing candidates like Rand Paul take that opportunity exceptionally well makes me very excited for the next debate.
 
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Soul Fly

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macle

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id enjoy that, especially that its rand instead of someone like carson, trump, etc who would just be like look at russia derp
 
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