Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Physical Tyranitar]

Zygarde from C- to C
Okay from what I can see (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) Zygarde hasn't had much spotlight on it since it was introduced because people generally passed it off as an inferior Garchomp, and admittedly, in many ways it is. After all, Zygarde has pretty low attack, a shallow movepool, and a completely useless ability. Compared to the other Dragons in OU, it just doesn't hit hard enough and it isn't very fast to be honest. But despite these traits, Zygarde is nothing short of a threat if used right. It's bulk is pretty high, and it's 108/121 physical defense is very, very high. To come with this bulk, it also has some sweet moves to help it function as a wall or shuffler. And, should you choose to use a Dragon Dance Zygarde, it has Dragon Dance and ExtremeSpeed, both of which Garchomp would kill for. It's support movepool is tight but usable, with options such as Glare and Dragon Tail. It's one of the bulkiest non-Ubers Dragons, and it's one of the best ParaShufflers in the game. Although it isn't a top-tier threat, I think that C- may be a little too far for a highly underrated dragon in my opinion.

 

[The Diabolic Gift]

Cincinno Unranked -> D Rank

Cleaner with enough speed and power to guarantee revenge kills against viable threats such as unboosted Pinsir-Mega.

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 560-680 (206.6 - 250.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Cincinno being able to revenge kill Mega-Pinsir is not it's niche. Cincinno is also able to revenge kill a +1 Mega Diancie after rock damage, Substitute Kyurem Black, Banded Azumarill, Sub Keldeo and Tyranitar and that is it's niche.


252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 210-250 (87.1 - 103.7%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 370-440 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 400-480 (104.1 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 178-211 (61.1 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 310-370 (90.9 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 360-430 (111.4 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Cincinno may not be better than Talonflame, Weavile, and tons of other Pokemon as a cleaner or a revenge killer but it revenge kills a variety of Pokemon that few or no other Pokemon can at the same time as well as passes through mons like Sash Breloom that tend to irritate other revenge kills with Rock Tomb or Spore.


Overall Cincinno has a niche in Overused, it might not be the best pokemon... but it has a niche.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-29019927
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290201347
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290202152
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290203921
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290209444
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290210690
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290213172

 

[Karxrida]

Those replays are bottom ladder, and it barely did anything in most of them. You didn't even use the fucker in #3.

Honestly I don't see any good reason to use Cincinno. There are tons of better revenge killers out there that aren't easily walled by common things like Ferrothorn or Skarmory, aren't frail as fuck, and are just... better.

 

[Rosen]

Is there any reason Kyurem is even ranked at all? What exactly is this thing's niche?

 

[The Diabolic Gift]

Is there any reason Kyurem is even ranked at all? What exactly is this thing's niche?

Don't really see one, other than higher spa than kyurem-b (which isnt a niche) it shouldnt be viable tbh

Edit: Im not actually recommending people use Cinccino much. I suggested it as D rank for a reason. It can be viable but it's torn by it's many flaws

Mega Hera can beat everything you just named besides pinsir and diancie while not being choice locked and actually hitting more then 6 mons

Yes mega-heracross can but it's not a REVENGE KILLER.
Cinccino is not a wall breaker thus it functions differently

 

[DJTHED]

Is there any reason Kyurem is even ranked at all? What exactly is this thing's niche?

Kyurem typically runs Sub+Roost with Ice Beam, and the fourth slot I believe usually goes to Earth Power/Draco Meteor?/Toxic in OU. This set being that it has only special offensive attacks makes it better to use on Kyurem than on Kyurem-B. It's also better at PP stalling due to having Pressure. This alone justifies where it's currently ranked.

 

[The Diabolic Gift]

Also Cinccino can make the "if you switch out I can U-turn for a free switch" scenario


D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

Honestly I don't see any good reason to use Cincinno. There are tons of better revenge killers out there that aren't easily walled by common things like Ferrothorn or Skarmory, aren't frail as fuck, and are just... better.

fail at doing any more than that
Crippling flaw
And are often Severely outclassed because of it

This has absolutely no reason against why it should not be D rank, There are better revenge killers but no revenge killer can defeat all those pokemon at the same time. Hense why it's D rank. Obviously it could be frail and worse than most revenge killers and still be D rank. In fact by definition of D rank you described all the flaws about D rank listed. Basically you said nothing that Pokemon in D rank don't all have.

 

[Firebird101]

The Diabolic Gift

This is as good a time as any to post this, since it's kind of related. For unranked -> ranked nominations, posting directly in the thread isn't necessarily your best course of action. Since the VR council are the ones who decide what is ranked, we are the ones you need to convince. You are most likely better off PMing one of us with some replays + your argument, maybe a team with said mon (that can allow us to test out its capabilities), etc... either simultaneous to your post or prior to it. You can think of it as an optional screening process that will give you an idea of whether the nomination will be taken seriously or not. The difference is that with already ranked pokemon, we're obviously going to at least consider every nomination, whereas nominations like Milotic or Donphan and things of that nature probably will not be considered.

 

[pika pal]

Cincinno Unranked -> D Rank

Cleaner with enough speed and power to guarantee revenge kills against viable threats such as unboosted Pinsir-Mega.

252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 560-680 (206.6 - 250.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Cincinno being able to revenge kill Mega-Pinsir is not it's niche. Cincinno is also able to revenge kill a +1 Mega Diancie after rock damage, Substitute Kyurem Black, Banded Azumarill, Sub Keldeo and Tyranitar and that is it's niche.


252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 210-250 (87.1 - 103.7%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 56 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 370-440 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 400-480 (104.1 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinccino: 178-211 (61.1 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock)
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 310-370 (90.9 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Choice Band Cinccino Bullet Seed (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 360-430 (111.4 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Cincinno may not be better than Talonflame, Weavile, and tons of other Pokemon as a cleaner or a revenge killer but it revenge kills a variety of Pokemon that few or no other Pokemon can at the same time as well as passes through mons like Sash Breloom that tend to irritate other revenge kills with Rock Tomb or Spore.


Overall Cincinno has a niche in Overused, it might not be the best pokemon... but it has a niche.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-29019927
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290201347
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290202152
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290203921
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290209444
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290210690
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290213172

How many teams are going to need a single slot in order to revenge all of those though? They're not exactly speed demons that take something incredibly fast to stop, and even if they were, offensive Starmie can beat every one of those bar Kyurem-B just as well since Revenging usually indicates those mons being down at least a bit of health, sits at the same Speed tier, has Analytic to punish the mon when it retreats from the obvious Revenge Kill, and can run Rapid Spin or Recover if not a 4th coverage option in the fourth slot, and that's without a Choice item. So Cinccino is outperformed as a Revenge Killer. Also, most of these mons get their Subs on a forced switch or something incredibly passive, meaning a Revenge Kill probably isn't how you'd go about dealing with them.

Mega Heracross as a Skill Link user has the bulk to compensate for its speed and the power to break something besides a mediocre bulk target with a SE move, also able to free a slot for Sub or SD. Cinccino's niche, if there is one at all, is incredibly small and does not outweigh its flaws in any degree for even very specific teams. The definitions were also gotten rid of because they made the rankings a mess when proposals threw them around more than making comparisons to how well it performs relative to other ranked Pokemon.


On a different note, what set(s) are currently keeping Suicune in B+? The best I can think of is as a win condition or shuffler (Roar set) on more defensively inclined balance teams, and stands up okay to non-NP Hoopa-U, but what does it do in particular compared to other defensive mons or CM sweepers?

 

[bludz]

Went over this before but just having a certain set of attributes that isn't copied by another pokemon doesn't mean a pokemon should be ranked, or that its niche is relevant. Hell if you want to go simply by the logic 'nothing can do exactly what it does' then that opens up the floodgates for just about everything. There has to be a reason that this specific set of unique attributes makes a pokemon worthy of being ranked.

Saying it can revenge kill 6 random threats doesn't prove it's worthy of being ranked. I am glad you posted replays (man you've gotta be the first in a while), but those were all low level matches and didn't really provide much reason why it should be ranked.

Cleaned up some one liners. The Diabolic Gift I'm going to ask that you refrain from double posting when you could use the same post and also to everyone just remember that this isn't the place for one line posts. Please provide some substance so we can have a quality discussion.

pika pal one of the main things Suicune has going for it is its sheer bulk. While yes it relies on an inconsistent recovery move, it also becomes a status absorber for this reason. While Clefable also does this, the water typing is pretty nice in checking things like Talonflame / Mega Metagross / Excadrill as well. Generally Slowbro is also a nice for this but has more weaknesses, is slower, and is more susceptible to status ailments, all things which hold it back to some degree. I was against Suicune being in B+ at one point but after using it on a few teams I think it's worthy of the rank and it's kind of a big threat since it can be annoying to break. It's also a nice Weavile check which is a plus in this metagame.

Er sorry kinda tired missed the question. CM/SleepTalk or CM/Roar as you alluded to are still its main sets

 

[Take Azelfie]

Can someone explain why normal Kyurem is on the list, all it does is have less everything with a different ability that seems very situational.

 

[Vinc608]

That is been already said, Kyurem runs a SubRoost set with Ice Beam and filler. It completely destroys stalls because it can win 1vs1 Chansey thanks to Pressure and Seismic Toss number. It also beats Ferrothorn if SR is not up, 4 Substitutes easily PPwast Gyro Ball s'Ferrothorn. It also has a better special attack stat.

 

[RufflesPro]

Yeah I don't think Cincinno should be D rank

I think it should be C+ EZ

this thing has so much coverage and such as good ability in skill link omg

CB Tail Slap does an amazing ~55% to tank chomp, but that's only if they choke and they have sand veil, because cincinno dies after the fourth hit just from recoil ...

don't worry though, you can knock off its rocky helmet doing a clean 15% crippling it for the rest of the game.

don't even worry though, you know what it does for steel types? there's this move called wake-up slap that has an immaculate 2% chance to 2hko 0 def heatran after lefties, too bad it doesn't have room for this move ...

you know whats my favorite part of using cincinno though? It has to be that its STAB CB Tail Slap does a SPICY ~35% to defensive Lando-t (oh if its rocky helmet it just dies though >.<)!!! unfortunately uninvested u-turn does ~39%, which is more than my stab cb tail slap :(((((

enough talk about cb though, the real viability is in king's rock because you have a skillless ~46% to flinch with tail slap!!!11!!


All jokes aside, this doesn't deserved to be ranked, it has no place in ou

 

[Wimblesaurus]

Yeah I don't think Cincinno should be D rank

I think it should be C+ EZ

this thing has so much coverage and such as good ability in skill link omg

CB Tail Slap does an amazing ~55% to tank chomp, but that's only if they choke and they have sand veil, because cincinno dies after the fourth hit just from recoil ...

don't worry though, you can knock off its rocky helmet doing a clean 15% crippling it for the rest of the game.

don't even worry though, you know what it does for steel types? there's this move called wake-up slap that has an immaculate 2% chance to 2hko 0 def heatran after lefties, too bad it doesn't have room for this move ...

you know whats my favorite part of using cincinno though? It has to be that its STAB CB Tail Slap does a SPICY ~35% to defensive Lando-t (oh if its rocky helmet it just dies though >.<)!!! unfortunately uninvested u-turn does ~39%, which is more than my stab cb tail slap :(((((

enough talk about cb though, the real viability is in king's rock because you have a skillless ~46% to flinch with tail slap!!!11!!


All jokes aside, this doesn't deserved to be ranked, it has no place in ou

Forcing in Tankchomp and Lando-T really isn't all that great an to aspersion to cast upon a physical revenge killer, just saying.

Diabolic also kind of undersold the lists of threats it can beat.

Putting the RU set in the calc gives me:

Clefable (54.7 - 66.1% Tail Slap vs. 50.8 - 60.1% Moonblast)
Manaphy (93.1 - 109.5% BS vs. 56.7 - 67% Scald)

Half of S-rank right there. There's a lot more, but I feel like those are a good start.

I'm not saying it's the messiah of OU, but it gets a laundry list of OHKO's against offensive pokemon and fucks up even the fattest water types something fierce.

 

[Halcyon.]

I think I can speak for the rest of the ranking team when I say that Cinccino will not be ranked. Please move on.

 

[SaberSeven]

I would like to nominate Zapdos to be demoted to B-. Simply put, it's outclassed in pretty much everything it does. In the Defog department, Latios and Latias are both better due to them not being weak to Stealth Rock like Zapdos is and can either slam something with a Draco Meteor/Psyshock in Latios's case or give another mon a chance with Healing Wish in Latias's case (although Latias's viability appears to be dropping at the moment).

Offensively, Thundurus-I outclasses Zapdos with the ability to cripple an opposing Pokemon with Prankster T-Wave, setting up with Nasty Plot, or Taunting a mon like Ferrothorn before it can set up hazards. Sure Zapdos has Roost, but with the Stealth Rock weakness and how offensive the metagame is right now, Zapdos will be hard pressed to find an opportunity to Roost.

Defensively, Zapdos can check BirdSpam, but Rotom-W does the same thing and has access to Will-O-Wisp. Zapdos also loses to Flare Blitz Talonflame while Rotom-W tanks the hit with its Water typing. Rotom-W also provides switch initiative with Volt Switch. Zapdos does have access to the move, but Volt Switch on it isn't good on it.

Hindering Zapdos even further, Outside of Defog, Roost, and Thunderbolt, Zapdos can only pick one move to beat a Stealth Rocker of its choice. If it goes with Heat Wave, it beats Ferrothorn, but loses to Garchomp, Landorus-T, and Hippowdon. If it goes for Toxic, it can deal with Hippowdon and defensive Garchomp, but it loses to Landorus-T, more offensive variants of Garchomp packing Swords Dance, and Ferrothorn. If it goes with HP Ice, it beats Landorus-T and Garchomp, but Hippowdon, and Ferrothorn beat it. Not even gonna mention SpDef Heatran because with Toxic and Taunt, Heatran's not even going to care about the coverage move Zapdos picks because let's face it: HP Ground on Zapdos isn't doing its coverage any favors.

tl;dr: Zapdos finds itself outclassed in this metagame offensively and defensively and can lose to a handful of the tier's Stealth Rockers depending on the coverage move it picks. Therefore, Zapdos should be demoted to B-.

 

[Albacore]

I agree that Zapdos is a pretty shitty defogger, however we shouldn't forget that Defog isn't it's only set. SubToxic is probably its best set, since it can really do a number on slower teams, and can cripple a bunch of checks to it, notably Electric and Ground types (http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-290743754 replay here of it putting in work, it's not the best showcase of its abilities but it's literally the first battle I got and the opposing team was just unable to deal with it and i'm too busy/lazy to battle even more).

However, that particular set has probably gotten worse recently for various reasons. M, much like Togekiss and Mew which were discussed earlier in this thread, it really doesn't appreciate the rise of faster balance teams and the demise of slow passive ones, and suffers competetion from Kyurem which, while definitely inferior defensively, has way better coverage, and most importantly, has 101 HP Subs, enabling it to much more reliably beat Chansey (though Zapdos does beat TWave variants and can break past Toxic variants if it predicts correctly). In fact, while it is pretty good at screwing over slower teams, there still are a ton of things in this tier which can pretty much do that but with added benefits, not just Kyurem and the previously mentioned Togekiss and Mew but also Manaphy, Jirachi, Hoopa-U, Gliscor, all of which are either a better defensively or a better at that particular job, which usually gives them an edge over Zapdos. When you compare it to these other options, Zapdos really doesn't provide too much outside of countering Torn-T and some Scizor sets, so the competition is definitely very fierce. For instance, that team I just used on the replay doesn't really fear Torn-T or Scizor too much, and would probably work even better with something like Jirachi or Manaphy or Hoopa-U>Zapdos, and would have been just as annoying, if not more annoying for the opposing team to deal with than the Zapdos variant. Also, getting completely shut down by Excadrill, one of the biggest thretas in the tier, can't possibly be a good thing.

I can see Zapdos dropping for these reasons but even so, it should be judged for its SubToxic set primarily since that's the set that's keeping it B rank in the first place.

 

[woyaojinkela]

Excadrill from A+ to A
I am not too good at Ou but excadrill should be A imao. To me, it is only great in sand. With the weather nerf, weather teams aren't as great as last gen. The spinning set is fine, but it is not too much better than Donphan. The choice scarf has a harsh competition with lan-t. The only good thing that scarf excadrill has over lan-t is rapid spin. But locking into rapid spin is kind of bad, since you usually need to switch out each time you use it. The opponent stealth rocker can easily take advantage of that. Excadrill is neither that bulky nor fast as a spinner. 110/60/65 isn't good, so isn't 88 speed. It also lacks a reliable recovery unlike starmie, another spinner. Excadrill also doesn't have much good coverage. The only good coverage it has is just rock slide, which isn't exactly powerful. Skarm pretty much laughs at excadrill.
The sandrush one is pretty good though, but being only really good in sand team doesn't make a pokemon A+ in my oponion. I know it was ubers last gen, these are just my thoughts about excadrill. (I am new here, so the formats is probably pretty bad... I apologize for that. My English is pretty bad too)

Zygarde from C- to C
Okay from what I can see (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) Zygarde hasn't had much spotlight on it since it was introduced because people generally passed it off as an inferior Garchomp, and admittedly, in many ways it is. After all, Zygarde has pretty low attack, a shallow movepool, and a completely useless ability. Compared to the other Dragons in OU, it just doesn't hit hard enough and it isn't very fast to be honest. But despite these traits, Zygarde is nothing short of a threat if used right. It's bulk is pretty high, and it's 108/121 physical defense is very, very high. To come with this bulk, it also has some sweet moves to help it function as a wall or shuffler. And, should you choose to use a Dragon Dance Zygarde, it has Dragon Dance and ExtremeSpeed, both of which Garchomp would kill for. It's support movepool is tight but usable, with options such as Glare and Dragon Tail. It's one of the bulkiest non-Ubers Dragons, and it's one of the best ParaShufflers in the game. Although it isn't a top-tier threat, I think that C- may be a little too far for a highly underrated dragon in my opinion.

In my opinion, Zygrade is more inferior with dragonite than garchomp. Dragonite also has dragon dance and extremespeed, also very very bulky. Zygrade can be a parasuffler with glare and dragon tail, while dragonite can thunder wave and dragontail, dragonite is probably better at it because of roost. You usually run zygrade over dragonite because of stealth rock, because zygrade doesn't take much damage from it, dragonnte lose 25% of its health and lose multiscale.

 

[DennisEG]

Ok so first Cinccino is just bad pokemon for OU to be ranked.

Talking bout Mew to A- i think the metagame is just evolving at that point that people are just abusing Sableye and people dont like that mon try to counter that with Offense wich is overwhelming for Balance/Stall-ish squads, so how is mew affected by this you may ask, well Mew was the ultimate stallbreaker + Balance killer in late XY earlier ORAS when the wallbreakers were too strong to run stall but SpD Mew was a solid option to spread burns and defog realiable and break stall pretty easily with Taunt + Recovery and residual damage, but right now as Albacore's said above Mew had way too many troubles in the current metagame that slowly was losing usage and this is due to Sableye, Lum bisharp, Diancie and Weavile most of the time, being two mons really good right now which leave Mew in a bad spot because is a momentum killer but dont get me wrong not every team is using Weav or Sable so mew still had decent usage because BO is a really good playstyle right now and this kind of team rely on bulky fat walls that have recovery so mew can stall those out pretty easily, so in conclusion Mew is not than good right now but still usable and think it deserve drop a rank due to all this consequences.

Respect to Politoed i think rain is way to match up realiable so when less rank have it's ok, Politoed is always paired with Swamp, Kabu, Omastar, and Kingdra all this mon need rain to being a threat in OU imo, so just dont run politoed with them and basically these mon are cripple and imposible to shine by his own, so if Politoed drop rank the other mons should too. I Exclude Torn-t here because is a great mon by himself and doesn't need rain to shine.

 

[RufflesPro]

I, too, agree that Zapdos is a very bad defogger, but IMO what's keeping it B rank is not its ability of defogging.

Zapdos's viability lies in the fact that it's a solid defensive Pokemon with solid typing and decent damage output and coverage. Most importantly, I want to highlight the fact that physically defensive Zapdos is almost completely useless in this meta. The best Zapdos is specially defensive.

Specially Defensive Zapdos (248 HP / 84 Def / 176+ SpD) is extremely good in the meta because it can stop, weaken, or cripple so many special threats that otherwise pressure Balanced a lot. The biggest four special mons that SpD Zapdos takes on are: Mega Alakazam (granted zapdos only weakens if encore/taunt, but with rocks it becomes a lot more manageable, and if 1v1 Zapdos usually wins), Tornadus-T, Gengar, and non-NP Thundurus (Mega Mane too). These four Pokemons in particular give nowadays Balanced a really hard time, especially Mega Zam, Paint Split/Taunt Gengar, and LO Torn-T. Thankfully Zapdos is able to take them on, avoiding the 2HKO from all of them and can 3HKO back.

252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Zapdos: 153-180 (39.9 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 84 Def Zapdos: 169-201 (44.1 - 52.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Zapdos: 168-199 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 176+ SpD Zapdos: 153-183 (39.9 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

While I like Roost / Thunderbolt / Heat Wave / HP Ice on Zapdos to check and weaken a LOT of pokemon, I really like Discharge over Thunderbolt or T-wave over coverage move. Paralyzation cripples too many Pokemon to count, most importantly stuff like Gengar, Mega Zam, Thundurus, Manaphy, Keldeo, Mega Zard Y, Torn-T, and Lopunny (mega) are all Pokemons that Zapdos can take at least one hit from and paralyze them back, instantly making them MUCH easier to handle both with Zapdos and with the rest of the team.

Overall, I can see Zapdos dropping to B-, but I feel like it's being undersold a lot, SpD Zapdos, especially SubToxic or Thunder Wave, is a really good set that can slow down opposing extremely offensive teams and still not be a dead-weight against slower teams.

 

[IronGrahn]

Excadrill from A+ to A
I am not too good at Ou but excadrill should be A imao. To me, it is only great in sand. With the weather nerf, weather teams aren't as great as last gen. The spinning set is fine, but it is not too much better than Donphan. The choice scarf has a harsh competition with lan-t. The only good thing that scarf excadrill has over lan-t is rapid spin. But locking into rapid spin is kind of bad, since you usually need to switch out each time you use it. The opponent stealth rocker can easily take advantage of that. Excadrill is neither that bulky nor fast as a spinner. 110/60/65 isn't good, so isn't 88 speed. It also lacks a reliable recovery unlike starmie, another spinner. Excadrill also doesn't have much good coverage. The only good coverage it has is just rock slide, which isn't exactly powerful. Skarm pretty much laughs at excadrill.
The sandrush one is pretty good though, but being only really good in sand team doesn't make a pokemon A+ in my oponion. I know it was ubers last gen, these are just my thoughts about excadrill. (I am new here, so the formats is probably pretty bad... I apologize for that. My English is pretty bad too).

It seems like you don't even know what Excadrill's role is. Sure maybe stuff like Rotom-w and Skarmory stops it, but Excadrill isn't a wallbreaker, it's a mon dedicated to sweep many offensive teams. He outspeeds the entirity of the metagame at +2 and revenge kill top tier threats like ZardX, Lopunny, Weavile, Talonflame, Clefable and so on. A fast mon with an impressive 135 Atk, and that he can run Adamant w/o losing too much speed. Offensive teams survives on stalling out sand turns and LO recoil if not packing M-Zam, Azu or Breloom. Especially since the metagame is still leaning a bit offensively. He also is one the few good spinner in OU. And you mentioned that Donphan a better spinner? Give me a break.
Keep Driller at A+.
(I would make longer post, but on phone now.)

 

[bludz]

Update time!

Hippowdown: A+ -> A
Serperior: A- -> A
Latias: A -> A-
Gothitelle: B -> B+
Empoleon: B -> B-

The reasons for these moves have been covered well within the thread discussion already.

Discussion slate:

Albacore touched on the first one already but there wasn't much discussion so I've added it to this slate.

Politoed: A- -> B+
Amoonguss B- -> B
Dragalge B+ -> B
Scizor B -> B+
Sylveon B- -> C+


Skarmory A -> A+
Since this one is my own I guess I'm sort of just advertising it as a discussion point but it's really just a nomination like anyone elses lol. Spike stacking is dope right now and Skarmory's able to get pseudo free turns pretty often in a match allowing it to set up Spikes or phaze opponents into entry hazards. It's more passive than Ferrothorn but has reliable recovery, and the ground immunity lets it come in on ground types with little repercussion. Honestly just think it's not any worse than Ferro in this meta and being able to kinda spam WW if you get hazards up can be a dagger to many teams. In terms of metagame trends it sets up hazards on Excadrill (a big threat and one of the more common hazard removers), and isn't effected much by opposing hazard stackers. Has nice synergy with Ttar (scarftar + hazards is sick) to remove Latis / Starmie so you can keep your spikes up for good.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Update time!
Politoed: A- -> B+
Amoonguss B- -> B
Dragalge B+ -> B
Scizor B -> B+
Sylveon B- -> C+

Politoed A - I think is fine is A since it is the only Dizzle user and on of the only reliable Rain Setters in the meta at the moment. Rain is also good because Rain HO is a hell of a lot more threatening than normal HO if your team isn't prepared.
Amoonguss B -> B+ - I agree because being able to put anything to sleep it a really nice niche in a fast paced game. Clear Smog isn't unique to Amoonguss but it also helps be one of those STALLmons that is hard or impossible to set up on. Personally I think Amoonguss is B+ since it forces something to go asleep unless they have a grass type and it has some perks that separates it from Venusaur like Clear Smog, Spore, and use of an item such as Rocky Helmet but it doesn't have as great as bulk and not as much of an offensive presence.
Dragalge B+ -> B - Yeah I can't say much about this thing. Psychic types are rising (Mega Alakazam and Mega Medicham) are really harming this thing as well as its role on most teams being a stallbreaker and most common stall ATM is GothStall doesn't help its case.
Scizor B -> B+ - although ultimately outrivaled by it mega, Scizor still has some strong points like being able to pick off pokemon with its Technician boosted Bullet Punches and it can help teams against Ice and Rock types as well as threaten fairies like Altaria and Clefable. U-turn being a great move since Scizor is Slow. Just great overall.
Sylveon B- -> C+ - yeah Sylveon is just outclassed at this point. No real reason of using it unless it is needed to Wish/Heal Bell and eliminate Sableye on the same team but then that is a lot of pressure and probably should be rebuilt to some degree

 

[Tressed]

Dragalge can probably move down. The popularity of spikes makes this thing's job all that much harder, since Dragalge's natural tendency of getting worn down easily only gets worse with Spikes up. I've had little success with Toxic Spikes against both Stall and Balance, those builds simply aren't very weak to them and I find myself wishing I was running a traditional Spiker instead. TSpikes do their job against offense but again, I find that Spikes would be more effective. In any case Dragalge has been really lackluster recently and I feel a drop is justified.

Scizor seems like it's in a pretty good spot right now. TankChomp going down in usage is really nice, and having things like Weavile and Torn-T being extremely popular on offence gives Scizor a pretty good time. Things like Hippowdon going down is also pretty good for it, since a lot of its hard counters are pretty easily worn down with constant U-Turning and hazard damage. tbh I've found that people have tended to underrate Banded Scizor this gen, it doesn't have a ton of amazing matchups against high tier mons but enough of them are weak to it that it can almost always help pull a team apart, either through revenge killing, Pursuit trapping, or plain old U-Turn spam.

Sylveon has been bad for a long time. Like it can sorta work as a budget Mega Gardevoir, but the emphasis is on budget here. Getting outrun by anything with Speed investment and having an only ok defensive typing means you're gonna struggle to get off more than one hit off against offence. It's also a bit of a joke against stall because as powerful as Hyper Voice is, no good stall team is going to get run over by a mon locked into a move unless it's severely weakened ahead of time, in which case you could be using a lot of other things that have more applications. In any case there haven't been any meta shifts that have favored it, nor does it have an actual niche over other options, so I'm all for a drop.

 

[Kyuzeth]

This Pokémon is not on the current slate, but I'd like to stir up some discussion.

I'm curious about whether or not Mega Manectric deserves to rise to A+. This thing absolutely shines on offensive teams (especially HO) and offense has been gaining in popularity lately; the drop of things like Hippowdon and bulky Garchomp really helps its case too. Its 135 Speed stat is highly valued, as Mega Manectric is one of the fastest Pokémon on offensive teams (tying with Mega Lopunny) and provides some really neat utility. Being the fastest unboosted Volt Switcher in the tier, Mega Manectric is an excellent scout with Intimidate and its Electric-type is highly useful with its Fire-type coverage, being able to dismantle threats like (Mega) Scizor, Tornadus-T, Weavile and Talonflame. Moreover, it still pairs greatly with other Intimidate users (most notably with VoltTurn partner Landorus-T) to greatly deter physical attackers. On top of that, Mega Manectric has remained an excellent cleaner thanks to its 135 SAtk/135 Spe stats and the aforementioned coverage. Now, that's where the good things end, as I know the thunderdog sometimes lacks in power (especially when compared to Mega Alakazam); Mega Zam is probably the big reason why this guy wouldn't rise, as it gives Mega Manectric stiff competition as a cleaner. That, and it's kind of useless against Stall teams due to the sheer bulk those teams tend to possess Still, there's so much Mega Manectric can perform in just one teamslot and it's an excellent asset on offensive teams due to its scouting, hole-punching and cleaning abilities. However, I don't know if that's enough to push this guy up to A+.