Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0

[Ununhexium]

I know this is mostly from ladder experience (which I get isn't quite the most credible) but I really thing Omanyte deserves A Rank.

I'll start this off by saying Omanyte is the best Shell Smasher in the tier in my opinion. It has both crazy power and Speed after a Shell Smash boost, and very little can avoid getting OHKOed after a boost, and if it can survive that, it definitely cant take 2 hits. Also, if you throw in a bit of hazard support (say SR and a layer of Spikes), even Spritzee has a chance of getting OHKOed. Pretty much every defensive core gets demolished under the sheer power of Omanyte, especially if it's running Hydro Pump for bulkier Pokemon.

Unfortunately, it can be revenge killed by Timburr, Scarf Mienfoo, and Magnemite to some extents, but I don't think that really holds it back way too much, as they are fairly manageable.

What I do think it Omanyte's best quality, however, is its ability to set up on so many things. I really like to run it with Memento support from Pokemon like Cottonee and Diglett (Cottonee in general is an amazing Pokemon lol, especially with something like HP Fire to lure and take out Ferroseed for Omanyte) because it makes life significantly easier for Omanyte. It's really easy to set up on common Pokemon such as Fletchling, Archen, Vullaby, Snubbull (really a lot of Pokemon with even super effective coverage moves) and more because of its pretty solid natural bulk which is supplemented by Eviolite. After setting up, it can proceed to smash a whole bunch of things to little bits.

Sorry if this wasn't very well written out, but in summary Omanyte is A) good at sweeping after a boost and B) good at getting aforementioned boost so it should be A rank :)

 

[Mister Magnus]

I Remember back in SPLC the sucess Corphish gave the Scrubbs and the sucess it had in LCPL , even with all that sucess, priority ,still as B+ is to little to this legend.
Corphish breaks like the whole meta with gothita support , with a DD it outspeeds most of the meta and with SD it can break the entirely bulk meta.

I honestly think Corphish deserve to be in a better position, A- is good.

 

[rhydonphilip]

I did fully see Corpish go A-, acces to STAB priority, Knock off support on Offencive sets(unlike Omanyte/Tirtouga), strong enough water force to break ballenced teams without a boost, Wallbreak after 1 boost of either Swords Dance(Bulky Offencive/Stall) or Dragon Dance(Bulkier oriented Ballence/Hyper Offencive), SuperPower to break trough opponants without support from Gothita sutch as Ferroseed,Lileep (again not too mutch). There also is The CB set, but yea.

 

[Svalkenaeres]

Now I know that I don't post much here because I'm terrible at this game, but I've been hearing a lot of complaints lately saying that the viability rankings should be cleaned up a bit, particularly in C Rank. While there are quite a few changes that could be made, I'll just bring up a few that I like and save the rest for the others.

Larvitar from C > C-

I honestly never saw the appeal in Larvitar until I gave him a fair chance, but tbh I wasn't very impressed with the results. While Larv can get very strong after Guts + DD, actually triggering Guts sucks because not only do you need a free opportunity to do so, but you're still left to be very frail because of the lack of Eviolite. It's overall strong and has a wicked offensive typing, but that typing also holds it back in the sense that it can almost never afford to take a hit. I feel like there are many more reliable set-up sweepers available to use.

Remoraid from C- > C

Remoraid can run a very disgusting Mixed Scarf set. Water Spout at full HP is doing crazy damage, and it even has Fire Blast to partner with it, which is extremely rare for water-types. Along with that, it can fire off Hustle-boosted Bullet Seeds and Rock Blasts, if willing to part with accuracy. The unpredictability combined with overall high (but not astounding) damage output allows it to act as one of the better Water Scarfers. You can even run something like Splash Plate or Expert Belt if using it on a webs team (or you're just that daring) for that extra damage.


I'll write more later when I'm more awake.

I used a lot Larvitar and I can say that this is not a bad mon, and it does not deserve C-.
Larvitar is fine in C imo. Larvitar has a very unique niche with DD + STABbed EdgeQuake and Guts.
I'm used to play with Eviolite instead of Flame Orb, it gives him a very decent bulk who allows him to set-up quite easily.
One sympathic point for him is that he is probably one of the only physical sweepers able to set-up on Ponyta. Rock typing allows to set-up on Fletchling's Acrobatics and put a huge pression. Also EdgeQuake + Superpower is a very powerful coverage (eventually Iron Tail if fairies make you cry) and can break many walls, like Porygon/Munchlax/Archen Eviolite/Ponyta/Chinchou.
Imo, C- is weak, he is better than the others C- Rank. But C+ is too high. Should stay in C imo

I played Remoraid lin like 2 teams, so I don't have a lot of experience with this. I just can say that he is, without sweb, the best abuser of Water Spout in the metagame. Hustle version is "playable" but not great. Funny to use and potentially dangerous if the opponent chokes, but very hard to use in a serious team. I never tried the critical with Sniper but imo this is gimmick at best. ScarfSpout is cool and it does not stay walled by Ferroseed like other spout users. Also he has some cool coverage moves that make him interesting. Imo ScarfSpout is C, Physical is D and Critical is E. So, I agree with the fact that C is not too much. C is cool, for his versality and because Water Spout is a nuke.

 

[Fiend]

I was looking at the viability rankings last night, and I saw several things which I disagreed with. There are more, but these nominations will reflect how my more controversial thoughts stand (Spritzee to A for example.) Please give your thoughts on the following:

S-rank:
Reserved for the very best Pokemon in the LC metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

.

A-rank:
Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC metagame and can sweep, wall, or support the majority of the tier. These Pokemon require less support than other Pokemon to be used effectively and have few flaws that can be overlooked when compared to their outstanding traits.​

Timburr --> A+

Reasoning

Timburr is a pokemon of great utility and high notoriety. However, despite how effective Timburr is within the metagame and how threatening and supportive it can be throughout the match, it fails to fit within the definition of the S rank and being moved down to A+ better reflects Timburr's viability. Its inability to both sweep and cover threats while acting as a status absorbent is the downfall of Timburr and can create issues with its Bulk Up set. Running Poison Jab over Bulk Up makes its most prevalent switch ins falter, but this manages to make Timburr overall less threatening due to now lacking the ability to sweep and how prone Timburr is to being worn down. Still an amazing pokemon, but in practice falls slightly short compared to how amazing it is on paper.

Abra --> A+

Reasoning

Abra is in the top 6 attackers in the tier with Life Orb and stupidly splashable when using Focus Sash--which gives it probably the 3rd best risk/reward ratio in current LC. That ratio and how people are forced to play around Sash even on LO sets is what pushed Abra into S-, however when forced to act as a Safety net you put yourself down a pokemon for half of the game. This prevents Abra from abusing its quirks until you need stop a threat. Abra's flaws of being entirely dead early to midgame, being just too weak Sashed, too easy to rk Orbed, and generally sacrificing or crippling a teammate to get itself onto the field and to preserve itself really create a pokemon who fits the definition of A+ better than any form of S.

Gastly --> A+

Reasoning

Gastly has roughly 3 switchins, only one of which is somewhat common. The only mandatory moves on Gastly are STABs which allows for great options of HP Fire / Psychic / Sub disable / HP Fighting / Sucker Punch to be used and better tailored to your team to fix holes or just to be fun. The standard sets alone are more than good enough to break most of the balance teams we see currently. Sitting at 18 speed and being impervious to Webs also means that Gastly has great matchup versus offense as well, not to mention how the non existent stall and regen core teams get snapped in half. The Sub 3 attack sets really abuses how Gastly does abuse switch ins, and allows for Gastly to beat the opponent who tries to outplay while capitalizing on fodder.

Drilburr --> A-

Reasoning

Drilbur is actually very annoying to consider when building; most teams rely on a flying type to not get cleanly swept by scarf EQ. Although the fact of the matter is Drilbur fails to secure enough OHKOes even after knock off support, despite such powerful EQs. This creates an issue where Drillbur is forced to take a hit in order to get a kill; Drilbur cannot often afford to do this. This is again an issue if you use Drilbur as your spinner for the reasons that it loses to all spinblockers and opens itself to being KOed. Taking the turn to get up SR is also an issue, especially since it invites in the other common spinner Staryu. The scarf set and ability to run pressure the common Volturn archetypes while threatening hazard clearing does still leave it rather effective and irksome to play around leaving it fitting under A-.

B-rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. Their niches are often slightly smaller than those that are in A and S rank, which leads them to face some competition for a teamslot.​

Larvesta --> B+

Reasoning

Laresta fails to truly beat Timburr and forces reliable removable of hazards on your team. While it doesn't suffer from needing burns to beat Fighting-types as Ponyta does, it still loses to Diglett. Pivoting around with U-turn and smashing many things with Flare Blitz is great though this just accentuates Larvesta's distaste for SR and forces recovery more often. Low speed makes said recovery harder to nab, and with Stone Edge Mienfoo being not uncommon, Larvesta's niche of being a Fighting counter is unreliable had.

Cottonee --> B+

Reasoning

It's a fantastic support pokemon with common hard counters which take less than 10% from Cottonee. With Giga Drain being its only recovery (Sub Leech isn't viable), and this being backed by god awful attack, Cottonee is prone to being worn down. Encore does act as a safety net for teams, while Memento makes every sweeper function much better in every matchup. Unfortunately it lures in Pawniard which enjoys Memento, but this can be abused to remove it with HP Fighting. This does show how Cottonee wants to do 6 things with 4 moves, resulting in Cottonee being used for its typing and movepool but not able to fully make use of both. Often Cott is forced to chose between being able to hit Fighting types hard enough or do any damage to Water types. Being Giga Drain-less also makes Cottonee have absolutely 0 recovery which overall decreases how it performs in games that last for more than 20~ turns. Again, Cottonee on paper is stronger compared to how it actually performs.

Bellsprout --> B

Reasoning

Not entirely useless without Sun, but close enough that Bellsprout can not be considered supportive in any sense (for example, often take the place of the water resist, but cannot beat something as simple as Chinchou) akin to Aipom's inability to be a team player. This is strongly outshined by how lethal Bellsprout is under sun, but that does stress the fact that you are entirely hinged upon a different pokemon (Vulpix) for being useful in a match simply screams relying heavily on team support. This is a defining trait of a lot of B pokemon. Sleep Powder and stupid strength with nifty 30% poisons make playing around Bellsprout annoying, but this creates a stronger parallel to Doduo (annoying to switch into, some uncommon hard counters though, the rampage ends when you get something faster/strong prio in) and Cranidos (needs help to get up to a strong enough speed, OHKOes and 2HKOes enough that it can come in several times a game, but offers nothing to help support the team besides a bad Fletch check) than it does Corphish and Bunnelby. Collectively this makes me feel that Bellsprout should drop.

Pancham --> B

Reasoning

Panda doesn't find much use on many teams simply due to being a great wallbreaker but a poor Pawniard switch in (which is one of the reasons Fighting types are a given on teams); it has a very cute niche of making stall lose to a single pokemon and having amazing synergy on trap teams, however you are often hard pressed to find a reason to use Pancham even when it theoretically fits. While it does reliably beat ever Fighting Counter, it struggles to beat most things faster which results in problems versus the more common archetypes. Even on dual fighting it struggles to be used over Timburr and even Croagunk and Scraggy as the former two allow for Scarf Foo to be ran while Scraggy abuses the extra wear on Fairies and makes a better sweeper/scarfer than Panda. The core of Scraggy + Pancham seems promising thanks to direct synergy of removing basically everything which would wall +1 High Jump Kick, but even this is subpar as both of your Fighting types truly do not like Pawniard. Too much competition at everything it does besides SD, which isn't a good enough in the current meta to stay higher than B.

C-rank:
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.​

Lickitung --> C+

Reasoning

lol.

 

[tcr]

Disagreeing with Cottonee and Lickitung lowered.

Lickitung is probably the only reason that Stall-oriented teams can actually work, since it passes the biggest wishes in the game. Combined with Spritzee, you form a solid healer backbone for any team, thus allowing you to actually stall things out, with Highly bulky mons like Tentacool, Hippopotas, Lileep, etc. Things that are bulky af but usually are not viable due to a lack of recovery options are easily slotted onto teams now with an excellent wishpasser. Yes, it has a small niche, that's the whole point. No it does not require any amount of "support" for it, other than what any Normal-type Pokemon needs. (even less if you run other moves like Knock Off or Counter or Body Slam, since it can support its own team by luring in a physical threat, or by knocking items off, or by paralyzing things.) I'd say immense bulk, a fantastic movepool, that includes a support movepool, giant Wishes, all outshine the bad parts of Lickitung, in that it has little offensive prescence, which it doesn't really need. Its also set up for things, but there isn't really much you can do when that is what stall is: a giant cesspool of mons that are easily set up on by the right thing. I'd say it creates its own role and differentiates itself from Porygon and Munchlax in that it is the only one who passes Wishes, and can even check Fighting-types fairly well with Counter.

Cottonee is probably one of the most versatile mons I've come across. Tons of sets are viable, standard encore+memento, Tailwind, LO Sweeper, Berry Juice pivot, etc. It's typing makes it so easy to fit onto teams its ridiculous. The problem I think you have is that you expect it to do too much. Its not supposed to check Fighting+Water+Pawniard as well as being able to allow your teammates to set up, and also have great recovery. If it had all that it would easily be S+ tier. Its a glue / support mon, you use it to patch up holes or specifically support your team (for example, Memento on most standard things, especially with Belly Drum teams, or Tailwind / Stun Spore on teams with other sweepers that might not necessarily want to lose their grass / fairy). It can carry a plethora of moves in order to check certain things. If your team loses to Pawniard + Chinchou _ Fighting types + needs Stun Spore bc its slow or something, odds are its just poorly made. IDK, you don't use Croagunk if you need like 5 things checked, you use it if you hneed fights checked for the most part, and focus on that.

 

[Merritt]

I'd like to voice my disagreement towards Drilbur dropping. While you stated its flaws well, you did miss the role of sand sweeper, which is where it becomes absurdly dangerous. The LO set (which can be run outside of sand too if you're ballsy, it has good enough speed for it) has like 5 things which can avoid a 2HKO from its coverage Slide/EQ/Shadow Claw/PJab, and because it's fairly fast you need something that can not only take the hit but outspeed and OHKO. That's not even counting when it's under sand, where the number of things that can switch in is limited to uh... not really anything. You can revenge kill it with priority, sure, but it has to be either strong priority after Drilbur's been weakened (Fletch Acro doesn't OHKO non-evio 36/0 drilbur) or SE powerful priority, which is also pretty limited. It's just as lethal as Bellsprout in weather (who incidentally I think you're kind of underselling in how damn effective it is under sun) and even when you're using it as a spinner it puts high pressure on the opposing team since it's actually quite powerful.

Even Pumpkaboo, who's the spinblocker that's tailor-made for stopping drilbur from spinning, can be 2HKOed by Shadow Claw if you choose to run it and you have rocks up. Get rocks and a spike up and Pumpkaboo can't switch in at all.
236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Shadow Claw vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Shadow Claw vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

It should remain in A in my opinion. A lot of the rest of the stuff is spot on though, down with S-!

 

[Berks]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-289352000

Porygon to wherever Timburr and Abra are, more to follow

 

[Merritt]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-289352000

Porygon to wherever Timburr and Abra are, more to follow

note: that was a min roll, unless Levi is running one of the weirdest scarfoo sets ever. Porygon™ does not come with a HJK survival guarantee. Your slot will not be refunded if your Porygon™ faints to a HJK.
236 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 20-26 (76.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (75% after rocks)[68.8% chance to OHKO if you're adamant]

I support removing Timburr and Abra from S- rank and putting them in A+. They're very good mons, along with Porygon, but I don't think they're so clear cut above the rest of A+ that they deserve their own rank (except maaaybe Spritzee).

 

[Berks]

note: that was a min roll, unless Levi is running one of the weirdest scarfoo sets ever. Porygon™ does not come with a HJK survival guarantee. Your slot will not be refunded if your Porygon™ faints to a HJK.
236 Atk Mienfoo High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 20-26 (76.9 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (75% after rocks)[68.8% chance to OHKO if you're adamant]

I support removing Timburr and Abra from S- rank and putting them in A+. They're very good mons, along with Porygon, but I don't think they're so clear cut above the rest of A+ that they deserve their own rank (except maaaybe Spritzee).

Oh okay so I'm a hax Lord but pory also took out both Timburr and Archen, and has a variety of other sets it can run with varying effectiveness ie Agiligon, Trace full wall, even Scarf I've seen before

It's just as good as Timburr and Abra imo so just rank them together whatever you do with them

 

[Celestavian]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-289352000

Porygon to wherever Timburr and Abra are, more to follow

+1 236+ SpA Porygon Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 18-22 (75 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sorry, that's just Levi being bad.

UPDATE (finally):

S- tier -> A+

I've moved Abra and Timburr down to A+ as a result of the huge amount of support for it, and entirely got rid of S- as a tier.

Binacle: C+ -> D

Really, the only thing keeping me from making this Smog Frog rank like Eevee and other such outclassed Pokemon is that it does have a niche in Tough Claws boosted attacks, with the exclusion of its Rock STAB. It's not like Eevee where Bunnelby does literally everything better than it; Cross Chop, in particular, OHKOes 236/196 Porygon at +2 87.5% of the time and always OHKOes standard Ferroseed barring misses, neither of which Tirtouga can do.

Larvitar: C -> C-

There was some hype with this paired with Chespin going around a few months ago, but tbh this thing was never good.

Anorith: C- -> C+

Anorith is pretty underrated IMO, so I'm agreeing with the nomination for it to go to C+. It has the niche of a SR setter that beats the crap out of most Defog users, while also being able to spin and having a good Speed tier and deceptively huge Attack stat. Being weak to the hazards it wants to spin sucks though, as well as having low BP moves and a relatively shallow movepool.

Larvesta: A- -> B+

Fiend has it correct here: as good as Larvesta is, it requires a lot of support to keep from being massacred by hazards, and can't check some of the things it should such as Mienfoo who run Stone Edge a lot and Timburr who can muscle past it, especially with a Guts boost. It's also pretty slow unlike Ponyta, which while good for things like a slow U-turn, also means it takes a lot of hits before being able to do anything back. Also the Flying weakness hurts.

Pancham: B+ -> B

Further decay of the once overhyped cute little panda.

Wingull: D -> C-

Wingull isn't D rank material imo, and the nominations in this thread have swayed me to move it up, if only a little bit. It does have a niche of being 19 Speed with respectable power, and although it is weak to SR and despises anything faster than it, it's got Hurricane's power and typing to save it.

Everything else suggested since I last updated this either requires more input or has too many negative comments in this thread or too much doubt on my end to go through with the change. Specifically, I'd like to see more discussion on Gastly and Drilbur, because those two are pretty relevant to the metagame.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Everything else suggested since I last updated this either requires more input or has too many negative comments in this thread or too much doubt on my end to go through with the change. Specifically, I'd like to see more discussion on Gastly and Drilbur, because those two are pretty relevant to the metagame.

Natu and Remoraid have both been argued and have gotten 0 negative arguments however i did love to argue about remoraid some more n_n.

Remoraid as Jac already explained frillish's use compaired to remaoraid.
Remoraid has amazing offencive pressence in movepool, speed and ability not to speed it's use to be mixed, sadly mutch like many other things like meowth it lacks defences to take any form of priority, lack priority him self, it's physical pressence is slightly hindered by 80% from hustle, and offencive stats still aren't high enough to say they easly wallbreak. However i did still see it be as effective as Meowth/Teddiursa as a revenge killer.
To C Mid? Natu as suggested C+

 

[gali]

I actually agree that remoraid should go up, the mixed scarf set is really cool. STAB water spout+hustle bullet seed/rock blast+any of its other 38192627 coverage moves makes it hard to switch into. prio kind of ducks it over and it hates hazards so it shouldn't be any higher than mid c but it's still a cool mon

 

[Merritt]

Azurill

yes thank you

As for Drilbur, I already said a lot of my piece, but I want to emphasize how scary LO Drilbur can be. It has coverage to hit everything it wants to hit and has virtually zero counters. If it gets an SD up, which isn't too hard considering how easily it scares things out, it just OHKOs so many things. If you SD on the Pumpkaboo switch in, foongus switch in, or whatever your opponent thinks is going to stop Drilbur, it just dies depending on your coverage.

+2 236 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Drilbur Shadow Claw vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 21-27 (77.7 - 100%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 236 Atk Life Orb Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 19-23 (86.3 - 104.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

If you get it under sand too, then it easily gets multiple KOs. It's also surprisingly bulky, all things considered, since it can take a fletchling acrobatics from full, which not a lot of LO neutral to flying can claim. It really should stay at A in my opinion, but it's not good enough for A+.

Gastly I wouldn't be opposed to going to A+, but at the same time it wouldn't be quite as good as many of the current A+ mons. It's very good, but I'm not sure it's A+ level.
e: unless you're talking about moving it down, in which case you're crazy.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Nominating Porygon for S

Before I begin, I am fully aware that people may initially be a bit hesitant for this because we're so used to Mienfoo and Pawniard sitting at the top, but please hear me out.
Porygon's combination of bulk, power, and versatility is unmatched. No other Pokemon is able to function consistently and effectively as both a top-tier wall and an extremely powerful offensive threat the way Porygon can, and I believe that its incredible prowess at what it does is on equal footing with the current S-rank Pokemon.

Defensive Porygon is unquestionably the most effective bulky blanket check in the metagame. The sheer number of Pokemon that it is able to soft check is absolutely ridiculous, and by ridiculous I mean it is able to switch into standard SR Eviolite Pawniard and win the majority of time. Adamant Eviolite Drilbur's Earthquake fails to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, so if you can't hit harder than that, then yup Porygon checks ya. 26/16/16 bulk is comparable to Spritzee's 27/16/14, but unlike Spritzee, Porygon can actually be pretty tough to switch into, between its decent 15 SpA and enormous offensive movepool, and can recover its health instantly as opposed to relying on Protect, which is an enormous boon for a wall. These traits allow even defensive variants of Porygon to be much, much easier to fit onto more offensively-inclined teams; on the other hand, the sheer number of Pokemon it can check in a single slot, and its ability to countertrap Diglett, make it just as tough as Spritzee to pass up for defensive teams. I might as well mention now that it's one half of arguably the best core in the metagame, PORYSPRITZ, but Spritzee is merely A+; I'm trying to argue that Porygon is above that.

Enter bulky attacker Porygon, which is probably my favourite set to use in LC right now because it's just soo damn strong. Even if Porygon doesn't grab the Download boost - which isn't difficult to get at all when there are 13 Pokemon, as well as 5 specific sets for other Pokemon, out of a total of 60 Pokemon in the S/A/B ranks, that Porygon will not usually get the +SpA boost against (give or take a few because counting is hard) - its Tri Attack is comparable to Adamant Pawniard's Iron Head, certainly not easy to shrug off. However, if it does, then there are a grand total of 0 viable switch-ins to a simple set of HP Fire or Fighting/Tri Attack/Psychic/Recover. LO/Band Mienfoo has Trubbish/Koffing/Skrelp, LO Abra has Stunky/Munchlax, Gastly has Stunky/Chespin, even LO SF Cranidos meets its match in Hippopotas. Unless you're willing to use Specially Defensive Berry Juice Scraggy, in which case I counter with the equally viable Hyper Beam Porygon, there is literally nothing worth running that can safely switch into a Porygon set that only has a single, mostly unimportant variation in its movepool (the only difference between the two when it comes to viable safe switch-ins is that HP Fire leaves it open to Hone Claws Aron, whereas HP Fighting loses to Swords Dance Honedge and defensive Pumpkaboo). Of course, you could always sack a Pokemon and then trap a troublesome wall-breaker, but that won't work on Porygon, because its Recover can outheal LO Diglett's Earthquake. It's also much harder to force out with the threat of a revenge-kill, or simply play around with smart switches, because even a more offensive set like this one has 25/14/14 bulk before Eviolite; in fact, Porygon straight up wins against standard Taunt Mienfoo and Timburr in a lead match-up, quite the checks there. Its bulk is comparable to traditionally defensive Pokemon like Foongus and Timburr, which, by the way, don't rank amongst the hardest hitters in the metagame, and is certainly enough for Porygon to still act as a check to prominent offensive threats threats such as Fletchling, various Shell Smashers, and Sash Abra. The only Pokemon with a comparable level of both bulk and power to bulky attacking Porygon are Munchlax and Wailmer, but I do not think I need to go over why Porygon is many times better than Munchlax in the average match, not sure about Wailmer though.

I would like to emphasize Porygon's versatility some more here, because there isn't really anything else in the metagame quite like it. The main sets have a lot of variation themselves; for example, Thunderbolt can be run on either set to check Water-types, and Shadow Ball covers all of Pumpkaboo-Super/Gastly/Gothita/soon to be freed Misdreavus in a single slot. However, it also has a fair number of other, completely different sets that are viable, albeit not to the same extent as the main sets. Fast Trace Porygon is quite nice to better check Bellsprout and to annoy bulky Mienfoo, and still has as much bulk as bulky attacker Porygon, which is, again, very bulky. Agility Porygon is a decent late-game cleaner that itself is extremely versatile, between its item and choice of moves. Porygon can hit 14 Speed, allowing it to take advantage of its big damage with a Download boost to run a threatening Choice Scarf set. I think I've lost to OP's LO webs-abusing Porygon. There are a ton of other, more gimmicky options available to it, such as Trick Room, Toxic + Conversion, and Gravity, but I won't go into these; my point is that Porygon can do way too many things, and can be tailored to fit into just about any reasonable role.

I do not think that Porygon is on the same level as the other A+ Pokemon. Fletchling has one viable, somewhat predictable set, and has awfully unimpressive stats for all its revenge-killing prowess. Abra is much less predictable than Fletchling, but can still be played around without too much hassle, in that LO Abra is removed by all three trappers, and Sashbra is easily walled. Magnemite's Berry Juice set isn't too troublesome to deal with, and its Choice Scarf set struggles to gain momentum until Ground-types and Chinchou are removed. Porygon is unpredictable, difficult to play around, and requires basically no support to function. The only Pokemon that are as absurdly easy to fit onto a team as Porygon are Mienfoo and possibly Archen, but Archen is noticeably less reliable than Mienfoo or Porygon. I honestly feel that Porygon makes more of an impact in the average match than Pawniard does, because Pawniard is so easy to wear down and loses to a stray Hidden Power Fighting, whereas Porygon can stick around to mow things down throughout the match. I'm not calling for a Porygon suspect, as it rarely manages to get more than six kills per match, but I do believe that its strengths warrant a ranking amongst the best of the best.


Nominating Foongus for A

OK, so from what I understand, Foongus was originally moved down to A- because it's apparently useless after Sleep Clause is activated, which is pretty great except that it's blatantly false. Even without Spore, Foongus is one of the best available checks to all sorts of Water- and Fairy-types, while also handling Fighting- and Ground-types to some extent. Foongus is one of the best defensive pivots in the game by virtue of its typing and ability alone, as it can check some of the metagame's most important threats, as well as less seen but hugely threatening and difficult to check threats such as Corphish, over and over and over, in a way that can't even be played around bar Gothita, because pulling that sweet double switch does more damage to Spritzee than it does to Foongus. It's also not that easy to switch into, because Sludge Bomb's 30% poison chance, which is going to happen eventually because Foongus sort of lasts forever, really hurts things like Vullaby and Ponyta, and allows Foongus to just outlast its checks and counters without much of a problem. Gothita can be annoying if you're relying on Foongus as your sole check to things (doesn't want to switch in though), but the opportunity cost that comes with using Gothita is much bigger than the one that comes with Foongus, which is evident by how other Gothita-weak Pokemon are ranked higher than Foongus. All of that alone is probably enough to propel Foongus to the upper echelons of A- if not higher, but this is all BEFORE mentioning Spore, which is, needless to say, a pretty good move. The amount of things Foongus can do just makes it so easy to fit onto defensive and offensive teams alike, certainly on par with the other defensive Pokemon in A. Honestly, I don't know what else to say because I'm not sure why Foongus was allowed to drop in the first place tbh


Also supporting Gastly for A+ because cute and strong

 

[Anthiese]

Gastly for A+

Pros:
+ 18 Speed is only matched by a few (like Stunky) and out sped by 7-9 mons (most of which arent common)
+ A lot of coverage options like Gleam / EBall / Psychic / TBolt / (various Hidden Powers)
+ Could utilise KO for switchins and Sucker to play with Pawn and pick off weaklings
+ A lot of status options like Sub / Disable / Wow / Hypnosis / Taunt / Trick / Destiny Bond
+ Hex can be used in conjunction with other status effects to break apart bulky mons
+ Low HP means no IV altering for LO
+ Only vulnerable to SR

Cons:
- Super frail
- Weak to common types (Dark, Psychic)
- Vulnerable to SR still hurts


Outcome:
Gastly is textbook glass cannon. While it's movepool and low HP make it easy for it to come out with a LO and wreck havoc, it's pitiful bulk oft ruins it's chance to shine. Being susceptible to SR doesnt really help its case either, since it breaks Sash and it gives LO less time to play games. However with the massive amount of status moves it gets, there are newer, more intricate games to play. Sub + Disable ruins mons without ulterior ways of attacking it like BU Timburr, while Hypnosis and Will-O-Wisp are boosted by Hex, becoming 130 BP before STAB. Then Taunt and Trick are good for locking down opponents into attacking moves or just one move altogether. Finally, DBond is a last resort to get rid of a troublesome enemy.

As versatile as Gastly is being made to look, we've only been scratching the surface with it. Gastly's been around for a while and gained a plethora of toys to toy with. I implore you all to try out something new and nastly with this old ghost.

 

[Dakotapuppy]

Why is Flabebe not usable? I just won a tournament with It.

 

[Cheryl.]

Why is Flabebe not usable? I just won a tournament with It.

It is completely outclassed by Spritzee as a Fairy type, so there is no use to using it. Also, the other guys you fought must be pretty bad if you won with Flabebe.

 

[Oma]

Hi I have ideas for moving things:

Staryu->A-
Staryu is a very important Pokemon in Little Cup because it is one of the only viable Rapid Spinners in the tier, but aside from spin and a high speed stat it's really underwhelming. The defensive spin set that most people use is extremely awkward because it's not actually that bulky and has to recover all the time in order to stay healthy enough to spin and check things too. It also suffers from a complete lack of offensive presence other than skillful Scald burns, so it gives away free turns to let stuff like Snivy come in and threaten Staryu's team. The lack of bulk and lack of offensive presence can even lead Staryu to fail to beat Pokemon it wants to switch in to. (calcs in hide tag) The best Staryu set imo is Life Orb because it can clean late game and also actually 2HKO Pumpkaboo and spin, but this set comes with its own flaws. It can't be switched in to any hit due to its frailty and is easily revenge killed by Choice Scarf Pokemon or Diglett. Being trapped by Diglett means that Staryu can not spin even if they lured in and killed the spinblocker, should a team have a ghost type and Diglett.

calcs

-76 Atk Ponyta Wild Charge vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 10-14 (47.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO Staryu just loses if they lose the speed tie, while in return Scald does 57.1%
-Archen knocks off on switch 0 Atk Archen Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 59.1% chance to 3HKO, Staryu's scald only pops the juice unless high roll, and then 0 Atk Archen Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Staryu: 15-18 (71.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Archen's Acro kills itemless Staryu after KOff damage

Spritzee->A
Maybe it's wrong of me to compare Spritzee to the other Pokemon in A+ but it just doesn't seem to be on the same level as Porygon, Abra, Timburr, Diglett, Magnemite etc. While it's very splashable on bulky teams, most offensive teams would much rather have the utility provided by Cottonee or the offensive presence of Snubbull in their fairy type, as Spritzee's wish passing recovery tends to eat up turns and Spritzee's mono-attacking moveset invites in Pokemon like Gastly, Skrelp, and Magnemite that can be very difficult to switch in to. Spritzee may be incredibly bulky to make up for its lack of offensive presence, but it is also the primest example of Knock Off bait. The Pokemon it wants to switch into (fighting types) all carry Knock Off, and switching in on them softens Spritzee up to be 2HKOed by close to any strong non-resisted hit. While you can run Covet to make up for this I guess, you then forfeit the utility of Aromatherapy or the ability to be a very threatening bulky sweeper. The way Spritzee hands out free turns thanks to its unchanging sets, and the ease with which it can be weakened both make it seem more like an A Pokemon to me.

Also I support Porygon to S, its ability to softcheck so much of the metagame at once while posing a substantial offensive threat is something unique to it, and it's incredibly easy to fit on a team. Levi said pretty much everything about that so I won't babble on about it.

 

[Kingler]

Na sprtizee is definitely A+ lol that thing isn't very easy to check and p much a hard stop to fighting types which is very nice. Not the most "splashable" mon but fits well in A+.

 

[Camden]

I'm also going to support Spritzee dropping to A. It gets pressured very easily, and I almost always find it loses its Eviolite in the first few turns of use because it's quite often one of the only things on a team that wants to take the hit. Yes, you can preserve the Eviolite and keep the bulk, but then you risk hurting the rest of your team just for the sake of keeping Spritzee healthy, and it's a Pokemon which is meant to be taking hits. It's also slow which makes wearing it down and forcing it to WishTect so much easier.

I need a bit more time to think about Porygon. I'm leaning towards S Rank but I have my qualms about its match-up vs certain S/A Ranks. I'll probably around soon though.

I'd also like to throw my support to moving Snivy up to A because it wallbreaks extremely well, and you are basically required to use priority or a faster mon (see Fletchling/Gastly) to beat it.

 

[tcr]

can we put deerling up in low B mid B?

Its one of the few Pokemon that absolutely loves to switch into Snivy, and can immediately pressure things with decent enough STABS (Grass / Normal isn't THAT bad) as well a good coverage move in Jump Kick. AFAIK its unranked rn, and I think with the upping of Snivy thigns that can bop it should become more meta as the tier progresses

 

[gali]

Deerling should be ranked but it's not really b- worthy. It can't really touch Gastly or Pumpkaboo (although pump can't really hurt it back, it can burn it). it's also really frail so it's not exceedingly difficultto kill. I'd say mid c's a good starting point.

 

[Merritt]

Deerling shouldn't be B-, maybe C. It gives free switches to Gastly and other ghosts, and is generally a poor physical attacker compared to others outside of countering snivy kind of. Countering an A ranked threat, while nice, isn't really B- rank worthy.

e: aaaaand literally ninja'd completely by tahu

 

[Camden]

I moved Corphish to A- since everyone thought it was A- already.