Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[bludz]

Update time!

Mew A -> A-
Mega Slowbro A -> A-
Politoed A- -> B+
Breloom B+ -> A-
Victini B+ -> B
Kabutops B+ -> B
Dragalge B+ -> B
Amoonguss B- -> B
Sylveon B- -> C+
Azelf B- -> C+
Metagross C+ -> B-

Discussion slate:
Mega Gardevoir A -> A+
Volcarona A- -> B+
Diggersby B+ -> B
Scolipede B -> B-
Zapdos B -> B-
Thundurus-Therian B- -> C+
Cobalion C+ -> B-
Cresselia C- -> C
Mega Aggron C- -> C

I'll be making changes to the OP now.

 

[Vert]

sorry to break it to you, but its immunities and wallbreaking potential is something we're not questioning.

i am not throwing your proposed ranking back, but nidoking is not going all the way to b hella b+. if anything, b- is the highest thing i can see this going. offense is easily the most common playstyle on the ladder right now and it isn't doing anything without sucker punch or scarf (both are mediocre; former suffers from coverage loss, for example). your calcs don't mean anything when these are pretty much the only 'mons it can come in on. it can't even switch in so there you have it. ridiculous how balance teams are getting faster running tornadus-t, latias, and even weavile lol.

as a non-mega wallbreaker, you suffer competition with faster versions such as life orb scizor, azumarill, kyurem-b, hoopa-u (the big one), and manaphy. all of these have excellent typing akin to nidoking, but get more oppurtunities to switch-in and most importantly higher speed / priority. hoopa-u can tank some big special attacks like holy shit zardy's modest flamethrower. nidoking doesn't have much in this metagame except a niche limited to voltturn and spam teams (looking at those nido + aero teams, the most common archetype of these). b- is cool, but nothing higher man.

speaking of aero, just want to put out there the standard stone edge / aerial ace / aqua tail / fire fang set is pretty bad. utilizing its coverage is the main draw, like iron tail, ice fang, earthquake, crunch, thunder fang, and even fly hehe. also, it has cool utility like pursuit, hone claws, and even stealth rock. i like the 'mon and i think it could go to b+, but please take account of what people actually use outside the analysis is up to date.

going to comment for the rest of the slate considering bludz posted it while i was typing this:

gardevoir is pretty nice right now with its typing. offense has trouble considering it can trace things like lightningrod and flash fire. gets lots of switch-ins on things like garchomp and tornadus-t to net free kills like a boss. i wouldn't mind if it went to a+. it is a powerful 'mon that is seeing a ladder outbreak for a reason.

volcarona is another pokemon that should drop considering how good tankchomp is right now and the bulkier offense teams you see right now like with av tornadus-t and sdef talonflame. these two are the most prominent and someone tell me why they aren't s rank (jk) but seriously, volcarona isn't as threatening compared to an era where we saw rockers with less longevity. kind of neccesates pursuit support right now because heatran is everywhere and there isn't a good way to beat that without hp ground.

diggersby shouldn't drop to b because it eats half of these bulky offense with swords dance. set up and click your stab on the slower check and quick attack on the faster ones (lol +2 adamant quick attack ohkoes keldeo after rocks and jolly does like 85%). the 4 attacks sets are nasty - fire punch, ice punch, wild charge, knock off, low kick,... agility is pretty niche but eats some fast teams with hazards. finally, you have scarf the bane of offense. spams its broken stab moves and takes the illegal u-turn on highway lando-t. has good offensive synergy with a bunch of 'mons.

scolipede should stay for its offensive sets, zapdos and thundurus-t were bad anyways, no comments on the rest.

 

[RufflesPro]

diggersby shouldn't drop to b because it eats half of these bulky offense with swords dance. set up and click your stab on the slower check and quick attack on the faster ones (lol +2 adamant quick attack ohkoes keldeo after rocks and jolly does like 85%). the 4 attacks sets are nasty - fire punch, ice punch, wild charge, knock off, low kick,... agility is pretty niche but eats some fast teams with hazards. finally, you have scarf the bane of offense. spams its broken stab moves and takes the illegal u-turn on highway lando-t. has good offensive synergy with a bunch of 'mons..

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-285 (74.9 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

R E L A X !

+2 quick attack (ada lo) doesn't OHKO keldeo after rocks, but other than that, I agree with Vertex that Diggersby shouldn't drop. This thing's wallbreaking power is out of this world. As a balanced/semi-stall builder and user, I am always extremely careful of Diggersby when I build, and If I see it in team preview I'm immediately on my toes and I have to play super carefully vs. this.

it's really scary because it can do stuff like this:

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 442-523 (105.2 - 124.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 391-461 (93 - 109.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

but at the same time it's speed is very lackluster and would sometimes rather use Jolly, and so I think B+ is the perfect rank for it, at least for now.

 

[Jaroda]

Victini B+ -> B This is something the ranking team unanimously agrees on so it's probably going to happen no matter what, but I still wanted to warn you guys before it actually happens b/c it would be kinda shitty of us to just move Pokemon without any prior warning. Victini is really not that great in the current meta and really deserves to drop to B rank.

MixTini is actually a pretty decent wallbreaker and actually has a strong matchup vs standard stall, but it kinda sucks vs offensive teams and suffers from a bunch of obvious flaws like SR weakness, weakness to common types, Pursuit weakness, the speed drop caused by V-Create making it pretty easy to take advantage of, plus it doesn't get to many opportunities to attack vs most teams since it gets worn down so easily, overall it's not really a B+ set on its own, and the other sets really aren't enough to make it B+ material either. Band struggles a lot with all the Tankchomps running around and its main STAB has really common resistances. Wisp+Taunt's lack of recovery and SR weakness prevents it from consistently checking stuff like Gardevoir and YZard, and it's a pretty niche set in general. Sub PuP and Scarf are kinda bad tbh, Sub PuP is Chomp food, and Scarf is just way too easy to wall and doesn't really check any sweepers (loses to XZard, loses to Altaria, loses to Sand Rush Exca), so there's little reason to run it over other scarfers. Its status as a Fairy check is a lot less valid nowadays, Clefable runs TWave, Altaria runs EQ, Diancie is Diancie, it only really checks Garde which still does a lot w/ Hyper Voice. Not a bad Pokemon by any means, but it's just not on par with the rest of B+ rank.


Now for my own nomination: Cobalion C+ -> B- I brought this up a while ago, but now I've used this thing a lot more and I really think it deserves to move up. I've been experimentiong with different sets than the standard STABs/Rocks/Volt Switch, and I've been impressed by how well they've performed. For instance, I've been using a Sub SD set, and while it's kinda weak even after a Swords Dance, it does set up really easily, espeically against bulkier teams which use stuff like Ferrothorn and Sableye which are just food for Cobalion. Given that its checks are pretty prevalent it's not going to sweep most teams, but SD isn't really the point of the set anyway, it's more something it can use to break through bulkier teams if it needs to, and it does help from time to time. (
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292715459 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292715459 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292724877 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292779014 bunch of replays, some of then featuring Cobalion hadling things it's supposed to lose to quite well)

I've also used SubToxic, which I've actually found even better since it's a lot more consistent, it's rarely ever deaweight since it's almost always going to be able to poison something, like here for instance http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-292806945, I only have one replay, but trust me, this kind of stuff happens pretty much every battle, though to a lesser extent. Really, the main impression I get from Cobalion is that, outside of Close Combat and Iron Head, it can run whatever combination of moves it wants, be it SR+Volt Switch, SR+Taunt, Sub+Taunt, Sub+SD, Sub+Toxic, Magnet Rise+Toxic, Magnet Rise+Taunt, Magnet Rise+SD, Stone Edge+SD, Stone Edge+Toxic, Volt Switch+Toxic, and so on. While it's always going to struggle against something, it's completely moveset dependant, there's no single thing that can take on every set comfortably, and as a result, it's very easy to screw over switchins, and pave the way for something else to sweep. It's a very flexible Pokemon which can perform different roles depending on what its team requires of it. It's just a solid support Pokemon in general, and it's defenitely on par with the rest of B- rank imo.

Regarding the SubSD set specifically, may I ask what makes it worth using over Terrakion if at all? A few weaknesses are shuffled around, but Terrakion sees much more from a SD from its higher Atk stat, and the better defense is rendered moot from CC defense drops and Substitute anyway.

 

[Srn]

Mega Gardevoir A -> A+
It's fine where it is. It's very consistent at wallbreaking and all that, but it faces tons of competition in that department, and it doesn't have the raw power of char-y or mega medi.
Volcarona A- -> B+
Support. Volc is ridiculously good at sweeping a few teams, but that's about it. It has lots of checks, and requires lots of support to be used effectively, thus its kinda matchup based. Sure, it has a few hidden powers it can toss around, but that only alleviates one of its many checks, so it'll still need lots of support.
Diggersby B+ -> B
Scolipede B -> B-
Zapdos B -> B-
Thundurus-Therian B- -> C+
Neutral on all of these, haven't used much
Cobalion C+ -> B-
I think I outlined my reasoning for my dislike for this mon:

Another off-topic nom i'd like to make is Cobalion C+-->C

I really only see this thing used to counter bisharp and set rocks, a role which faces quite a bit of competition from bulky chomp and hippo.

As a steel-type, it can hardly check dragons. Garchomp is a hard check, and it can't do much back to dragons without a pissweak hp ice. Latios straight up does half with draco to cobalion, and cobalion is slower+the best it can do back is iron head or thunder wave. Char-x melts it and kyu-b earth power has an 81.3% to OHKO.
As a steel-type, it doesn't really check fairies either. Mega Diancie cleanly 2hko's with its stab, and Mega Gardevoir has a good shot at OHKO'ing with 1 spike. Cobalion's iron head also has a 25% chance to 2hko clefable, so clef can pretty much just t-wave and recover until para and proceed to set up or just switch out and break through when it comes in again. Mega Altaria also takes 60-70% from iron head and does 70%+ with a +1 jolly return, hardly qualifying cobalion as even a check. Special variants will blow straight through it of course. And last but not least cobalion is almost 2hko'd by AV azu play rough.
As a physical attacker, it has no reasonable chance of breaking through common walls such as lando-t, slowbro, quagsire, and mega-sableye, it'll be hard pressed to even make a dent in defensive skarmory or hippo. The most it can do is toxic or volt switch, and neither are surefire ways to even annoy physical walls.
As a fighting type it can counter bisharp but loses to weavile knock off+low kick most of the time. It does a good job checking some other less prominent dark types, like mega sharpedo or tyranitar, but others like m-gyara can just set up on it in regular form and be fine most of the time. And keldeo is an excellent check to all the above, as is any other fighting type with any bulk (hera, conk, fuck even defensive nape isn't bad)

"HUR DUR MUH MOMENTUM"
Too bad every remotely bulky ground type that already counters you stops volt switch too. Fuck even hp ice needs investment to 2hko bulky chomp.

Maybe it could be a cool pivot with volt switch but its hard-stopped by pretty much any ground.
Maybe it could use SD but it has way too many other things it wants to do. Thunder wave (which is kinda sad when every ground switches in on you for free), toxic, sd, close combat, iron head, volt switch, stealth rock, hp ice, etc. It has to pick 4 of all of those it wants to mess with, and without a certain move its just fodder for a different third of the tier that'll require around 2 mons to check/break.
Maybe it could make good use of its speed tier but its general lack of power (90 base attacking stats) and mediocre stabs don't carry you too far.
It's not as if offense is lacking options to get rid of it either. Lando-t, garchomp, gyarados, mega-manectric, mega scizor, starmie, thundurus, mega-hera, victini, volcorona, and char-y can all take a hit, set up on/kill/take another and kill it, and there countless things that can revenge kill it like psychic latios, specs keldeo, torn-t, etc etc etc.

It's an average fighting, a shit steel, a terrible pivot, and outclassed in its extremely specific roles. I really dislike cobalion and think it should move down :]

That about sums that up.
Cresselia C- -> C
Support, its not bad.
Mega Aggron C- -> C
Nah, it should stay where it is because a 2x weakness and ability to set rocks is NOT enough to distinguish or justify the use of it over mega scizor. Zor is just so so so much better with reliable recovery and fighting neutrality; and it actually has decent speed. Offensive SD variants will blow past even rotom-w, something you'll never see maggron do.

 

[AM]

Breloom B+ -> A-

Breloom Wins Again

Mega Gardevoir A -> A+
Volcarona A- -> B+
Diggersby B+ -> B
Scolipede B -> B-
Zapdos B -> B-
Thundurus-Therian B- -> C+
Cobalion C+ -> B-
Cresselia C- -> C
Mega Aggron C- -> C

No comment on the current changes I think they were all more or less appropriate.

As far as the current slate goes....

M-Gard is a little too overrated™ for A+. I get the logic of where some people come from this but that's more of a symptom of over-dependency on fat builds than M-Gard having some amassed effectiveness in the meta-game. This would be easier to argue if I got some logic from ranking team on this cause this is kind of vague. I think TDK has been advocator of this for a bit considering he uses it on a bunch of builds. His builds effectiveness though stem more from the support that M-Garde is being provided, the classic Keld + TTar + Chomp combo, than M-Gardes own individual traits being what propels the success of these kind of teams tradtionally.

I think Volcarona is a major threat but I can acknowledge that Talonflame being as good as ever in nurturing tons of builds with its Wisp variants which is found on a lot of good builds is part of its issue. Garchomp isn't primarily the issue with Volcarona by the way which was mentioned above, the opportunity to set up with it can be difficult and as such its potential is riding on getting that turn to boost, easier said than done. Fine with it dropping.

Diggersby shouldn't drop. Diggersby is one of those mons that put people on high alert so that it doesnt find an opportunity to set up seeing as how it can decimate cores and mons under its speed tier barring a couple of priority users. It's also this illusion, like M-Aero, that there is some sort of necessity in terms of a single moveset or implication of 4mss which is still a stupid argument no matter how many times people use it to justify reasoning. The Earthquake, Ice punch , Fire Punch, SD Jolly Life Orb combo is one of the ultimate wallbreaking tools to scare off the majority of common leads in the meta which includes rockers such as tankchomp, Lando-T, and Heatran and spikers such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory. It can cater its movesets to screw over tons of teams or supplement cleaners in punching holes for a late end game for its team-mates. Its negatives won't ever really put it at A- or in the A ranks in general anytime soon but B+ is a good rank for those mons that can be a major threat that should be accounted for in terms of battling, with Diggersby being one of those. One of the best tools to cheese the ladder as well if you're into doing that.

Scolipede should stay for its offensive sets. The meta hasn't really changed away from it and it dropped already for the issues before.

Still think people underrate Zapdos for the sake of dropping it to B- with the likes of pretty bad mons like Infernape lol but stuff like Toxicroak and Lucario reside in B- and they have some generally equal effectiveness while some of the B exert more presence in the meta. Fine with a drop from that perspective.

I think Thundy-T is kind of a big hit or miss which I find is a trait very common to the C+ and below things even the B- stuff in some ways. I talked with Celtic a bit about it where he had some good points as a decent cleaner for opposing weathers but meh I haven't seen a ton of good squads where I was like "damn it's more of a threat than Entei" yes that's a pretty big generalization but hopefully people get the idea. Also I'll elaborate after and granted I think Thundy-T is a hit or miss but Cobalion isn't as big of a threat as Thundy-T is, so confused on the logic of a rise.

Albacores reasoning for Coba rise is sort of like the way people hype Victini to death in how it has this amazing versatility but being versatile isn't the same as being versatile and effective at the same time, something that Victini suffers from with a bunch of flaws that come to fruition in practice that is always ignored. Cobalions versatility is a lot of theorymon like you're not going to be exerting some presence like some of the better B- and C+ stuff are, such as AV Metagross who provides blanket utility in trapping Latis, pivoting into Jirachi, and other aspects. Srn sums it up more or less but not in the way it should drop. Fine in C+.

Cresselia isn't even that bad, a solid psychic option on the conventional Char-Y archetypes who need a pivot of sort to Latis, M-Cham, M-Lopunny, among others. I normally pack it with Twave and some mixed bulk with Rocky Helmet to threaten contact attackers but it is fat as shit and a hipster balance tool. It isn't by any means fantastic but C is a good place for it.

Fine with M-Agrron moving up but not any higher. I could probably justify Mega Steelix over M-Aggron on some builds tbf and M-Zor being a thing granted its bulky set is hyped to hell gives it some competition.

Tyrantrum should probably drop, just saying.

 

[Ramses]

Update time!

Mew A -> A-
Mega Slowbro A -> A-
Politoed A- -> B+
Breloom B+ -> A-
Victini B+ -> B
Kabutops B+ -> B
Dragalge B+ -> B
Amoonguss B- -> B
Sylveon B- -> C+
Azelf B- -> C+
Metagross C+ -> B-

Discussion slate:
Mega Gardevoir A -> A+
Volcarona A- -> B+
Diggersby B+ -> B
Scolipede B -> B-
Zapdos B -> B-
Thundurus-Therian B- -> C+
Cobalion C+ -> B-
Cresselia C- -> C
Mega Aggron C- -> C

I'll be making changes to the OP now.

Mega Gardevoir is fine in A. With the meta shifting over morso to offense it can't find as many opportunities it'd like to terrorize the opposing team. Although a bit shaky it does face a bit of competition from Mega Diancie who can choose which playstyle it wants to excel against. The Calm Mind set gives it the upper hand against balance and Stall and is legitimately good, it's just that the Rock Polish set is a lot better currently in our fast paced meta. Meh.

Volcarona is more of a tougher subject. It isn't bad per se, it's simply the fact of needing free turns to setup and as the meta gets quicker and more offensive, it's hard to meet that goal. By any means it is effective in what it can do, but the requirements needed to meet a sweep is easy on paper, but difficult in practice. Agreed.

Thundurus-T has always imo faced fierce competition with Thundurus-I. They're essentially the same with different abilities and stats. Thundurus-T more or less is an poor man's Thundurus-I, and fails more than it succeeds. Matter of fact it really has no specific niche that's such a huge one that it make it better than the likes of Mega Blastoise and Infernape, who can spin and output a large sum of damage and coverage and wall high level threats such as Weavile and Mega Scizor respectively. Agreed.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Update time!

Mega Slowbro A -> A-

I'm actually a little surprised by this.

current slate

Mega Gardevoir A -> A+ Not honestly sure what changed to make Gardevoir stronger, so I oppose the change. Maybe I'm ignorant to something that happened, but generally megavoir is more useful in a more balance and stall based metagame. From everything I've seen and heard, offense is the dominant playstyle.
Volcarona A- -> B+ I agree with this. Volc hasn't been doing as much for me recently.
Diggersby B+ -> B There are so many Pokemon that outspeed and take minimal damage from quick attack right now and it's wallbreaking prowess hasn't really been needed. I agree.
Scolipede B -> B- Bulky chomp, Talonflame, lando-T. Not much needs to be said here.
Zapdos B -> B- I disagree with this nom. Sub roost Zapdos is pretty strong right now...or at least strong enough to keep Zapdos in B imo.
Thundurus-Therian B- -> C+ I felt like this was a long time coming. There are much better electric type stops and it's speed tier is really trash right now.
Cobalion C+ -> B- I've been messing around with Cobalion a lot recently and I'm impressed. Great bulk, solid speed, and amazing support options in taunt, t-wave, volt switch, rocks. If you ever have a Weaville weakness, Cobalion is a pretty nice add.
Cresselia C- -> C I've faced a couple of Cress stall and semi teams and it's done well enough. I agree with the nom.
Mega Aggron C- -> C Really solid against offense and there's a lot of offense right now. I agree with the nom.

I'll expand on Cobalion a bit later, but I'm on my phone right now.

 

[TheNegativeOne]

Haven't been HERE in a while, but I see some interesting stuff's been going on.

Mega Gardevoir A -> A+
HELL YES
This thing breaks stall, can 2HKO just about everything with STAB and it's coverage moves, can use taunt, cripple potential switchins like Scizor with Will O Wisp, and can fit very well on a team if you need a Mega. SUPPORT

Volcarona A- -> B+
Disagree
Volcarona doesn't deserve a drop for a few reasons. 1: Fire STAB with a secondary type that covers most things that resist it is amazing, as Fire is a good, spammable type once Heatran is gone and threats are weakened. 2: It has access to arguably the best boosting move in the game, Quiver Dance, boosting it's Special Attack and Speed, making it a very devastating and powerful late game sweeper, as well as boosting it's special bulk, pressuring special attackers. 3: It can work as a bulky set up sweeper too, providing something to help with it's middling physical bulk. It does have flaws, like being weak to priority thunder wave, Azu, Talonflame, and the dreaded stealth rock, but it should be used mostly as a late game sweeper, so these pokemon should either be weakened or taken care of, and rocks should be removed. It does however force you to run hazard removal support, so you decide whether it's worth it or not.

Diggersby B+ -> B
No. Just no.
I see the argument against it, but this thing is such a powerful late game cleaner and sweeper, it's ridiculous. It's power is huge (Pun intended), has access to priority, and smacks just about everything with a 2HKO using either Return or Earthquake. It is, however, walled by some common pokemon (i.e Skarmory and Gengar), but as with Volcarona, it's such a strong late game cleaner that I think B+ is justified.

Scolipede B -> B-
No opinion
Zapdos B -> B-
Neutral
While this thing is pretty niche, it works. And it works VERY well for it's job. It's a bulky wall that checks flying types, Scizor, Scarf Excadrill, and ground types. It acts a decent pivot and momentum grabber with Volt Switch, can remove hazards, spread toxics around, and more. I get that it's mostly outclassed by Thundurus in most scenarios, but I feel like B is the appropriate ranking for this mon considering what it does.

Thundurus-Therian B- -> C+
Meh.
Cobalion C+ -> B-
Nope. No opinion.
Cresselia C- -> C
PLEASE GOD NO.
In all seriousness, Cresselia is NOT good. It gets destroyed by very common strategies and pokemon, such as Dark Spam, Mega Scizor, Mega Sableye, Gengar, Mega Gyarados, and is set up bait for all of these mons. It's too passive to really pose any sort of threat, is set up fodder for most the entire offensive metagame not 4x weak to it's moves, and has trouble fitting ANYWHERE other than hardcore stall.

Mega Aggron C- -> C
No opinion.

 

[NotSoClutch]

Cresselia C- -> C
PLEASE GOD NO.
In all seriousness, Cresselia is NOT good. It gets destroyed by very common strategies and pokemon, such as Dark Spam, Mega Scizor, Mega Sableye, Gengar, Mega Gyarados, and is set up bait for all of these mons. It's too passive to really pose any sort of threat, is set up fodder for most the entire offensive metagame not 4x weak to it's moves, and has trouble fitting ANYWHERE other than hardcore stall.

No opinion.

What's wrong with a Pokemon that's good in stall? The C ranks are left for Pokemon that are niche but are strong in performing said niche. Also, it is far from destroyed by dark spam.

252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 170-204 (38.2 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 216-254 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 146-174 (32.8 - 39.1%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO

It's too passive to do anything back, but being able to avoid a 2HKO from Bisharp's knock off (albeit itemless pursuit trap Bisharp) shows just how fat Cress truly is and this bulk along with it's pure psychic typing and levitate allow it to check Pokemon nothing else can for stall.

 

[Kibblecat]

Quick question before I think about some response to the current slate... I know it hasn't brought up individually yet, but given that Politoed and Kabutops moved down in the same slate and MegaPert/Omastar are both also a sub rank below Politoed (and Kingdra), what is the precedent for Kingdra staying where it is? I understand the point that Politoed being a sub rank above Swimmers was a bit outdated etc. but given that Politoed is *still* a sub rank above every other swimmer besides Kingdra, it feels pretty counterintuitive to me at a glance to keep Kingdra where it is, particularly when comparing it to MegaPert who, over other Swift Swimmers, has enough bulk and moveslots to set up Rain himself, and also an entirely separate niche in his Curse set which lets him have something of a function outside of rain (compared to Kingdra's only other niche of Critdra, which doesn't really compare in OU) and so, at least on the face of it, Kingdra and Pert should at least be ranked on par, and even then only if there's absolutely no way that Pert will rise above it eventually.

I'm not nomming Kingdra down for now (naturally there's no real metagame related argument for it in this post), or for Pert to move up at all, but if there isn't a rationale to Kingdra's placement in relation to the rest of the rain play style, I'll probably come back later with something more of an argument for Kingdra to drop.

 

[AM]

Quick question before I think about some response to the current slate... I know it hasn't brought up individually yet, but given that Politoed and Kabutops moved down in the same slate and MegaPert/Omastar are both also a sub rank below Politoed (and Kingdra), what is the precedent for Kingdra staying where it is? I understand the point that Politoed being a sub rank above Swimmers was a bit outdated etc. but given that Politoed is *still* a sub rank above every other swimmer besides Kingdra, it feels pretty counterintuitive to me at a glance to keep Kingdra where it is, particularly when comparing it to MegaPert who, over other Swift Swimmers, has enough bulk and moveslots to set up Rain himself, and also an entirely separate niche in his Curse set which lets him have something of a function outside of rain (compared to Kingdra's only other niche of Critdra, which doesn't really compare in OU) and so, at least on the face of it, Kingdra and Pert should at least be ranked on par, and even then only if there's absolutely no way that Pert will rise above it eventually.

I'm not nomming Kingdra down for now (naturally there's no real metagame related argument for it in this post), or for Pert to move up at all, but if there isn't a rationale to Kingdra's placement in relation to the rest of the rain play style, I'll probably come back later with something more of an argument for Kingdra to drop.

I suggested to bludz awhile back that Kingdra + Politoed should occupy the same rank because realistically those are the two mainstays of rain. The other rain mons aren't a necessity or don't have an increased effectiveness towards the style. Every good rain build I've seen has these two together. Politoed being the catalyst to rain and Kingdra being what I think is the best swift swimmer there is to offer. M-Swamps niche in curse isn't relevant because it's not good and Gastrodon exists who performs the role much better to begin with.

M-Swampert doesn't really make a rain build better, it supplements it. The logic was that these two should be in the same rank as such I suggested to the ranking team to consider that hence what I assume is their current placement now which I believe is appropriate.

Edit: To clarify I'm sure bludz and the others will respond to your question but I figured I would let you know how that discussion started up.

 

[asterat]

Am I the only one around here who wants to see Gliscor go up a rank? It may have been a bit better before the metagame turned to offense b/c of manaphy, but it is still an excellent stallbreaker, and can check a lot of very scary pokemon in a way that a lot of similar mons can't. For reference, I have been using the standard spread of 244 HP/192 SpD/72 Spe. (Careful) I am sure better spreads exist but the one from the analysis has been serving me really well so I don't feel obliged to change it. I have been using SD/EQ/Facade/Roost (although I have fooled around with Protect > Roost.) This set... handles both Clefable and Sableye. And for the record, it does it much better than Heatran, which is another threat that Gliscor can get around pretty easily. I use facade, but knock off can be used - my problem with it is that it is very weak on itemless pokemon / mega pokemon, making Gliscor not much of a threat at all to a lot of pokemons. The main counters to the set I have been using are Skarmory and Gengar, but past that you have to rely on unaware or other somewhat gimmicky stuff - it has little to no hard counters. Offensive teams have to kill with something faster, which is doable, so it is often somewhat of dead weight against them. To its credit though, it can stand up to garchomp pretty well and can check a lot of things with roost. Against balance, it is monstrous, beating down popular pokemons like Heatran, Starmie (defensive, scald doesn't 2HKO,) Venusaur, Landorus-T, Sableye, Clefable, Excadrill (same as starmie, barring flinch,) Magnezone, Diancie, Metagross, Rotom-W, Tyranitar, Hippowdon, etc. It can't hard counter all of these mons, but the insane recovery of 12.5% per turn plus healthy roosting means that even attacks doing 55% or something are not going to be enough to bring it down very easily. Also, a lot of the mons doing that much damage are weak to earthquake or will take a lot from facade. It also has a bunch of other sets, although in my opinion sd gliscor is far and away the best. It's kind of like how SpD talonflame is better than sd or cb talonflame. Gliscor isn't flawless, but it's really damn good and I would hate to see its role in the OU metagame downplayed by keeping it in the same tier as the other A tier mons. I feel like right now it is certainly better than Mega Scizor or Diancie, both of which reside in the A+ tier. I think either moving down some A+ mons Gliscor is flatly better than or moving up Gliscor is necessary to accurately reflect the metagame.

Magnezone should move up to A. This thing has become really common on balanced or more offensive teams, because it performs a really important role really efficiently: it kills Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and Scizor. It can also trap stupid things like Klefki, Excadrill (without sand), other Metagross Metagross (sorta), and Jirachi (though this one is iffy.) I can't really see a reason to not use scarf right now, because it can revenge kill Excadrill and check manaphy, as well as generally revenge killing anything up to Serperior. Specs means that a fair amount of the time those steels are going to kill you instead (Excadrill, Superpower Scizor, fire punch jirachi, Metagross) and you don't really need the extra power most of the time. Anyways, removing those few key steel types allows a bunch of mons to run wild and terrorize the rest of the opponents team - examples are Serperior (you can run HP ground without ferrothorn, skarmory, scizor) DD Altaria (ferrothorn, scizor, skarmory, excadrill,) SD Gliscor (skarmory,) Pinsir (skarmory,) Gardevoir (skarmory, jirachi, metagross, excadrill, scizor,) Diancie (ferrothorn, skarmory, scizor, jirachi, excadrill,) Kyurem-B (everything,) CM Raikou (ferrothorn,) Weavile (Scizor,) etc. The list goes on. Another thing is that Magnezone is not dead weight without these few mons to eliminate. By virtue of your opponent not carrying those few mons, the sweepers I listed above and others will run rampant a lot of the time. Dedicated stall teams can't block with Skarmory, balance can't spam Ferrothorn, and offense can't rely on Metagross or Excadrill to check these things anymore. Basically, the only steel type that will remain after Magnezone is Heatran - which is thankfully weak to Earthquake and water moves. Also, if you knock off its leftovers you can continually switch in Magnezone and inflict irreversible chip damage with volt switch. For all of this, I think Magnezone deserves a rise to A. It's definitely more viable than Alakazam, Celebi, or Rotom-W.

 

[Kibblecat]

I suggested to bludz awhile back that Kingdra + Politoed should occupy the same rank because realistically those are the two mainstays of rain. The other rain mons aren't a necessity or don't have an increased effectiveness towards the style. Every good rain build I've seen has these two together. Politoed being the catalyst to rain and Kingdra being what I think is the best swift swimmer there is to offer. M-Swamps niche in curse isn't relevant because it's not good and Gastrodon exists who performs the role much better to begin with.

M-Swampert doesn't really make a rain build better, it supplements it. The logic was that these two should be in the same rank as such I suggested to the ranking team to consider that hence what I assume is their current placement now which I believe is appropriate.

Edit: To clarify I'm sure bludz and the others will respond to your question but I figured I would let you know how that discussion started up.

Thanks very much for the clarification, and it's a good point about Mega-Swampert not making rain builds better per se, at least not in the same way that Kingdra is (usually) a better option than other swift swimmers (mainly Kabutops/Omastar and Ludicolo, I guess...). Is it not considered a redeeming feature that Swampert can set up rain and function as a Swift-Swimmer without being on a dedicated rain build? I suppose the best argument against it would be that there's not really a niche for such a feature and it becomes just another kind of set up sweeper, to the point where it doesn't compare to Kingdra's merits that get it into B+, and as always there's the whole mega-slot argument to go with it.

 

[Reiddos]

Gardevoir A -> A+
I agree with this rise. Mega Gard has been a really strong pokemon since it's inception and in the current balance meta good lord can it put in some work.
The set of hyper voice , f blast and , psyshock means it can hit almost anything incredibly hard.
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 205-243 (52 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery - Can't switch in to t wave you. The standard it 2hk0's clef calc which we all know makes a wall breaker useless if it cant break clef.

232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 205-243 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock - 3hk0ing a chansey pretty impressive with max def and hp investment. The pressure gard puts on Chansey is enormous.

These calcs are sorta just here to show the insane damage output by garde. It's got the wall breaking. Really good typing as it can switch into the lati twins pretty comfortably at all times which is a huge bonus when vsing offense.

Just overall such a great mon.
Definitely worthy of A+ as it can wall break and its 328 speed help it clean late game also

 

[Albacore]

Regarding the SubSD set specifically, may I ask what makes it worth using over Terrakion if at all? A few weaknesses are shuffled around, but Terrakion sees much more from a SD from its higher Atk stat, and the better defense is rendered moot from CC defense drops and Substitute anyway.

Much better defensive typing, for one. Saying that "a few weaknesses are shuffled around" is really misleading when you're comparing Steel, arguably the best defensive typing, and Rock, one of the worst. The higher bulk isn't a moot point at all, you're using Close Combat after using your bulk to set up as opposed to before so it, and Substitute makes said bulk more important as opposed to less. Terrakion simply cannot reliably set up Substitutes against anything, unlike Cobalion which subs on a handful of Steel- and Dark-types. There's also the benefit of STAB Iron Head hitting Fairies, particularly Unaware Clefable which walls Terrakion (Cobalion doesn't 2HKO the phys def variant, but it does do enough to the point where it's forced to recover you're very likely to beat it through a flinch. But the two really aren't that comparable, you're not using SD Cobalion to sweep or break walls, you're using it primarily as a support pokemon that has the potential to take advantage of bulkier Pokemon. It's more similar to bulky SD garchomp or CM clefable in how it functions.

Not going to elaborate on the recent update since most moves have already been discussed as length, I will talk about Azelf though since that actually wasn't discussed : Nowadays, even the most offensive teams require some kind of defensive backbone, and this usually falls to the SR setter. As a result, suicide leads are pretty much dead, since running a bulky SRer like Garchomp or Landorus-T is almost always much more beneficial than running something which provides barely anything but guanateed rocks (and it's not like Garchomp or Landorus-T have a hard time finding an opening to get rocks up). Azelf is just a really niche Pokemon that only fits on very specific teams, and thus, fits better in C+ than B-, the latter of which has Pokemon like Toxicroak, Chensaught, Tentacruel and Mandibuzz which, despite having limited niches, have more valubale roles, are less easily replaced for something else, and fit on a much wider range of teams.
Comparing Azelf to Metagross, both are very good at their jobs but barely do anything else, and suffer competition from Pokemon which do their job worse but are overall better. The difference here is that Azelf's role is less valuable, and it suffers competition from even better and more splashable Pokemon than Metagross does.

If you have any questions about why a certain Pokemon moved or didn't move just feel free to ask and I'll explain.

My thoughts on a few of the noms :

Hide

Mega Gardevoir to A+ : I'm actually opposed to this moving up, mainly on the basis that, while is is an extremely good stallbreaker, when you compare it to megas in A+ it just neccesitates more support, and teamswith it have less potential for flexibility. Stuff like MZam, Lopunny and Diancie are not only hugely threatening offensively, but also provide a safety net against certain things. garde only really checks Latios and some special attackers kinda, it won't prevent you from getting run over by any sweepers. While it often amplifies your dominance when your opponent is in a bad position, it's not the kind of Pokemon which can significantly change the corse of the battle, it won't really help you gain momentum back when you lose the upper hard.
Also Focus Blast sucks and Garde relies on it a lot, even when compared to MZam who at least has Shadow Ball for weakened Steels (MGarde can run Shadow Ball too I guess but it's really not worth it)
Volcarona to B+ : Adressed this a while ago, I feel like, while it can easily sweep a lot teams, it isn't as splashable and requires way more support than anything in A-, it fits better an B+ alongside Pokemon like Togekiss, Terrakion and Suicune, which can either be extremely devastating or completely useless depending on matchup.
Scolipede to B- : It's fine in B rank. Toxic Spikes I guess have gotten slightly worse recently, but they are still very potent, especially on offnesive teams which ofetn carry Pokemon that absolutely love TSpikes, and Scolipede is pretty much the only viable Tspiker for offense. Plus, people really underestimate how scary a BPed speed boost to a wallbreaker can get, some teams just crumble to a +2 Manaphy or Hoopa-U. LO cleaner isn't greta by any means, but it is still decent, Garchomp and Lando-T aren't exactly hard to wear down, and Scolipede is actually surprisingly powerful, Hippowdon takes like 40% from Megahorn so it doesnt' need to be weakened too much.
Cresselia to C : Sure why not. It's the most passive thing ever and suffers a lot of competition from Reuniclus, Slowbro and Latias, but it is bulky beyond belief and acts as a blanket check to a pretty large amount of threats. I feel like dropping it all the way to C- as soon as Landorus got the boost was an overreaction, it's still an okay Pokemon.

 

[TheNegativeOne]

k

What's wrong with a Pokemon that's good in stall? The C ranks are left for Pokemon that are niche but are strong in performing said niche. Also, it is far from destroyed by dark spam.

252 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 170-204 (38.2 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 216-254 (48.6 - 57.2%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 146-174 (32.8 - 39.1%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO

It's too passive to do anything back, but being able to avoid a 2HKO from Bisharp's knock off (albeit itemless pursuit trap Bisharp) shows just how fat Cress truly is and this bulk along with it's pure psychic typing and levitate allow it to check Pokemon nothing else can for stall.

Swords Dance, the most common set, straight OHKOs Cress.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 507-601 (114.1 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
So that point is now moot. It's also, as stated, way too passive to do anything of note back to Bisharp. So, yay.

And if I can talk about two things that user asterat talked about, I support a rise for both Gliscor and Magnezone. Gliscor is VERY good in this meta, is able to tank hits from powerful attackers (It lives Mega Lopunny's Ice Punch from full with the SpDef set, for example), and can absolutely dismantle stall and slow balance. As for Magnezone, this thing applies so much pressure, removes obnoxious steel types that can make sweeping for pokemon like Mega Scizor, Mega Altaria, and even Gliscor easier. It's also not really hard to fit on a team, isn't weak to rocks, and nabs momentum with Volt Switch. There's really no reason for this to not rise considering what it can do for a team.
Not much more to say about it that asterat didn't go over.

So, in short:

Gliscor: A -> A+
Magnezone: A- -> A

 

[Collusion]

Discussion slate:
Mega Gardevoir A -> A+
I'm on the fence, honestly. Mgarde doesn't need as much support as chary to wallbreak and doesn't really have a switchin on offense, and base 100 speed is fast enough that it can come in on 2 or 3 mons on even Offense and click hyper voice to blow holes. While it's easily pressured on offense, it doesn't need a turn of set up and it has acceptable special bulk, enough to come in after a special attacker like Mane kills something and force it out, blowing a massive hole in something or straight up kill it. It's obviously great at dismantling bulky teams but it's equally deadweight as manaphy against offense.
Volcarona A- -> B+
Definitely. This thing needs far too much support and is stopped by too much (like every fire type ever). It can QD and hurt stuff sure, but its setup opportunities are only against some special attackers and Fire/Bug/Grass is walled by a lot. It's quite easy to apply pressure to volcarona teams as well.
Scolipede B -> B-
Outclassed hard by other spikers in the tier. Finds a niche as a tspiker. The only direct comparison this really has is Custap Skarm, but in the current meta wasting a whole teamslot on a lead spiker is pretty "eh". Definitely drop this.
Zapdos B -> B-
Wish this was done earlier, but zapdos is a terrible pokemon that kills so much momentum, is a mediocre defogger because 1) It's weak to rocks and 2) All the rock setters can hit it super effectively. On top of that, Electric/fire (please don't run hp ice unless you want to be the defogger that is total spikes bait) coverage is set up bait for so much.

 

[Clair]

A -> A+ Disagree
Nah. Struggles against offense, especially now that Latios has almost entirely replaced Latias (meaning the margins for avoiding the Psyshock 2HKO are much slimmer) and there are an increasing number of surprise offensive Chomp leads. Even against Goth stall it's dependent on Healing Wish to reliably win. All the old issues like being reliant on Focus Blast to hit important stuff are still there as well.

A- -> B+ Agree
Agree. B+ seems to be the appropriate rank for things like Volc which are major threats but are also situational or require heavy support. Current state of the metagame is also unfriendly to it.

B -> B- Disagree

Suicide lead is pretty bad, the offensive cleaner set is what should keep it in B imo. Has a lot of counters, but they're mostly consolidated into groups which can be targeted easily enough with the right partners (e.g. Zard-X on an anti-Ground team, Zone on an anti-Steel team).

B -> B-

Don't really mind, I haven't used this thing in a while because it's just not reliable. Its effectiveness as a Defogger depends a lot on the opponent's SR setter, and in terms of threat coverage, it just doesn't perfectly synergise with defensive cores in the way that Skarmory, its main competition, does.

 

[JuanchoTacorta]

Well, meanwhile everyone is discussing on Suspect Test post, I would like to bring again the issue about Honchkrow being D rank.
The only reason I thought this mon was ranked so low, the only set considered was the physical one, being stopped by any Talonflame check. Then I discovered the mixed set and I couldn't believe what this thing does to any defensive core. Just the combination of Dark Pulse, Brave Bird (both STAB) Heat Wave, Superpower and Icy Wind breaks through any defensive mon while still threads Offense with Speed Control on T-Wave, Icy Wind again and, ofc, Moxie Sucker Punch. Sure it suffers from 4MSS, but that's what makes Honchkrow so versatile, unlike offensive Talonflame and, mainly, Staraptor. Standard EVs spread, after rocks, 2OHKOs defensive Lando, OHKOs Slowbro and gets a roll on TankChomp. Superpower OHKOs T-Tar and deals (71.6 - 84.4%) to max HP Heatran, and Heat Wave OHKOs Skarm after rocks, 2OHKOs Specially defensive, and OHKOs Ferro and Defensive M-Scizor. Pursuit+ SuckerPunch Moxie (on physical sets) gives a great pressure to 3 of the most common hazard removal in the tier, Starmie and the Latis, meanwhile its able to check Excadrill. 71 Speed is not good for an offensive mon. Although, it's very tricky. Max speed invest reachs 241, outspeeding adamant Bisharp speed tie, meanwhile max speed+nature reachs 265, outspeeding TankChomp. Also gets NP to be even a more powerful wallbreaker. (Dunno if Sablenite suspect will make bad this option)

On the other side, 100/52/52 it's pretty bad, even for a offensive mon. Dark-Flying type is pretty mediocre, weak to Electric, Ice, Fairy and Rock, even Ground+Psychic inmunnity helps a bit,it's easily outspeed by any offensive mon and 2OHKOed even by a Hoopa-U's dark pulse, which is a resist, and LO recoil is a thing. Sure, it can run Roost, but Honchkrow appreciates coverage too much. Still, Moxie Sucker Punch, the only common move all sets has, performs as a great win-con vs any playstyle. This, its flexible sets and it's offensive versatility makes Honchkrow an underrated mon who is too powerful to keep being D rank along one-dimension mons like Shedinja, Pangoro, or Haxorus. Not giving a rank because I want to read more discussion about his. Thanks for reading.

 

[yomi]

Staraptor C+ -> C or lower

a bit irrelevant but this has been bugging me for a while. this bird has been middling between c+ and b- for a long time now and i just... gotta wonder. scarf is its only actually viable set (band is really bad it doesnt do anything for a team any wallbreaker couldnt without killing themselves aside from, uh, surprise low ladder players that switch a spdef skarm in on it), and realistically, how often using this thing do you do anything but u-turn twice in a match or click final gambit vs a lead? on paper its this super strong and intimidating scarfer, but in action this thing doesnt really do much of anything something like scarf victini cant do better, and what they do isnt all that great anyways.



as for the slate now;

mega-garde is o-ver-ra-ted. sure its got absolutely, incomprehensibly nuclear strength behind it, worthy of its place right now for that alone, but its deceptively hard to get in safely against even balance, and it basically requires a healing wish mon in back these days. and honestly, 4/5 times id rather use mana or gengar or hoopa or even lo zam to clear stall and dedicate my mega slot to something with less polarizing matchups. stay a

i mean hazard lead sets are bad if only because m-sab, but scolipedes cleaner set still doesnt get the respect it deserves. it needs support for clearing its solid checks, but it does its job. stay b

diggersby always, always seems to fall just short of getting the koes it wants unless youve got absolutely full layers up. its a mean, mean sash sweeper, but like some of the calcs above show, things that it needs to tend to... not die to quick attack. id rather use loom or smth. down to b

so... what does zapdos do anymore? check 2/3 of the relevant offensive steels? i mean yeah it does it well, not losing to exca is always Cool, but that doesnt quite fit the level of utility i think of when i see blankets like amoonguss or quag. down to b-

 

[Clair]

Well, meanwhile everyone is discussing on Suspect Test post, I would like to bring again the issue about Honchkrow being D rank.
The only reason I thought this mon was ranked so low, the only set considered was the physical one, being stopped by any Talonflame check. Then I discovered the mixed set and I couldn't believe what this thing does to any defensive core. Just the combination of Dark Pulse, Brave Bird (both STAB) Heat Wave, Superpower and Icy Wind breaks through any defensive mon while still threads Offense with Speed Control on T-Wave, Icy Wind again and, ofc, Moxie Sucker Punch. Sure it suffers from 4MSS, but that's what makes Honchkrow so versatile, unlike offensive Talonflame and, mainly, Staraptor. Standard EVs spread, after rocks, 2OHKOs defensive Lando, OHKOs Slowbro and gets a roll on TankChomp. Superpower OHKOs T-Tar and deals (71.6 - 84.4%) to max HP Heatran, and Heat Wave OHKOs Skarm after rocks, 2OHKOs Specially defensive, and OHKOs Ferro and Defensive M-Scizor. Pursuit+ SuckerPunch Moxie (on physical sets) gives a great pressure to 3 of the most common hazard removal in the tier, Starmie and the Latis, meanwhile its able to check Excadrill. 71 Speed is not good for an offensive mon. Although, it's very tricky. Max speed invest reachs 241, outspeeding adamant Bisharp speed tie, meanwhile max speed+nature reachs 265, outspeeding TankChomp. Also gets NP to be even a more powerful wallbreaker. (Dunno if Sablenite suspect will make bad this option)

On the other side, 100/52/52 it's pretty bad, even for a offensive mon. Dark-Flying type is pretty mediocre, weak to Electric, Ice, Fairy and Rock, even Ground+Psychic inmunnity helps a bit,it's easily outspeed by any offensive mon and 2OHKOed even by a Hoopa-U's dark pulse, which is a resist, and LO recoil is a thing. Sure, it can run Roost, but Honchkrow appreciates coverage too much. Still, Moxie Sucker Punch, the only common move all sets has, performs as a great win-con vs any playstyle. This, its flexible sets and it's offensive versatility makes Honchkrow an underrated mon who is too powerful to keep being D rank along one-dimension mons like Shedinja, Pangoro, or Haxorus. Not giving a rank because I want to read more discussion about his. Thanks for reading.

Offensive prowess means nothing if it doesn't get the chance to use it. Honchkrow is slow, has a terrible defensive typing, is completely dependent on Sucker Punch against offense, and takes huge residual damage between Rocks, Life Orb, Brave Bird recoil, and its inability to use Roost effectively. Krow has the tools to shine in a good matchup with good prediction, but it's just not reliable enough to justify a teamslot.

 

[Firebird101]

Kutscher Donphan looks nice on paper but falls short in practice in nearly every aspect of the role it attempts to do even if it can role compress key roles as there are numerous better mons for every role Donphan can do in OU. I am impressed someone managed to top the ladder with it but that is not an amazing achievement in itself as there are definitely mons that you can use in OU that aren't per-se viable. There is a difference between recommendable mons that can pull their weight if you know what you are doing (which is pretty much the mons the viability rankings are supposed to reflect) and the mons good players can make it work because they know the meta front and back. I don't think Donphan deserves that stigma it gets in OU but for the record if you want to make a nomination to D rank please contact one of the ranking team members and make a extensive case that isn't just "some guy topped the ladder with it" and high level replays would be nice too.

 

[Punchshroom]

Well, meanwhile everyone is discussing on Suspect Test post, I would like to bring again the issue about Honchkrow being D rank.
The only reason I thought this mon was ranked so low, the only set considered was the physical one, being stopped by any Talonflame check. Then I discovered the mixed set and I couldn't believe what this thing does to any defensive core. Just the combination of Dark Pulse, Brave Bird (both STAB) Heat Wave, Superpower and Icy Wind breaks through any defensive mon while still threads Offense with Speed Control on T-Wave, Icy Wind again and, ofc, Moxie Sucker Punch. Sure it suffers from 4MSS, but that's what makes Honchkrow so versatile, unlike offensive Talonflame and, mainly, Staraptor. Standard EVs spread, after rocks, 2OHKOs defensive Lando, OHKOs Slowbro and gets a roll on TankChomp. Superpower OHKOs T-Tar and deals (71.6 - 84.4%) to max HP Heatran, and Heat Wave OHKOs Skarm after rocks, 2OHKOs Specially defensive, and OHKOs Ferro and Defensive M-Scizor. Pursuit+ SuckerPunch Moxie (on physical sets) gives a great pressure to 3 of the most common hazard removal in the tier, Starmie and the Latis, meanwhile its able to check Excadrill. 71 Speed is not good for an offensive mon. Although, it's very tricky. Max speed invest reachs 241, outspeeding adamant Bisharp speed tie, meanwhile max speed+nature reachs 265, outspeeding TankChomp. Also gets NP to be even a more powerful wallbreaker. (Dunno if Sablenite suspect will make bad this option)

On the other side, 100/52/52 it's pretty bad, even for a offensive mon. Dark-Flying type is pretty mediocre, weak to Electric, Ice, Fairy and Rock, even Ground+Psychic inmunnity helps a bit,it's easily outspeed by any offensive mon and 2OHKOed even by a Hoopa-U's dark pulse, which is a resist, and LO recoil is a thing. Sure, it can run Roost, but Honchkrow appreciates coverage too much. Still, Moxie Sucker Punch, the only common move all sets has, performs as a great win-con vs any playstyle. This, its flexible sets and it's offensive versatility makes Honchkrow an underrated mon who is too powerful to keep being D rank along one-dimension mons like Shedinja, Pangoro, or Haxorus. Not giving a rank because I want to read more discussion about his. Thanks for reading.

I've talked about Honchkrow before, and while I still find it an interesting mon to use, its shortcomings are simply too glaring to ignore. For those that didn't just click my link, Honch may have many tools at its disposal to weaken Flying checks, but it simply has no room to combat all of them at once. It wants Superpower for Heatran and Tyranitar, Heat Wave for Skarmory and Klefki (as well as nail Ferrothorn w/o recoil), and Icy Wind for TankChomp and Landorus-T. Even putting aside the 4MSS, Honchkrow lacks a reliable Dark STAB to hit things on the switch (most notably Rotom-W) unless you want to try Dark Pulse which requires substantial SpA investment, which detracts from Honchkrow's holepunching and sweeping ability.

What's more, Honchkrow plays sort of like a Bisharp v0.5, in that it has a stupid powerful Sucker Punch and has powerful dual STABs, but Honchkrow lacks several key advantages such as survivability (SR weakness + Brave Bird recoil), inability to boost at will (relies on Moxie boosting instead of Swords Dance), and lacks reliable Dark STAB (no Knock Off). The fact that Bisharp easily operates on dual STABs alone while Honchkrow has to jump through all sorts of hoops to get even close to the same amount of work done is also a significant factor to why Honch doesn't get a higher Rank.

 

[bludz]

lol let's make one thing clear. You can't bring up an unranked pokemon, say it's not a nomination and then talk about how it should be ranked. That's a nomination.

Gonna go back and delete some posts, but Firebird101 is hammering a point home that I think is maybe important to leave out there so his post can stay since it has a more overarching theme than just Donphan