Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are underrated. In the right hands, they can both cause massive destruction.
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Super Smash Bros 4 (Spoilers ITT)
- Thread starter LonelyNess
- Start date
How on earth is Falco better than Fox? Fox is easily a top 10 character while Falco is really mediocre and has much, much less in terms of results.
The only characters I can really see as getting good results as a result of their buffs are Mewtwo, Bowser, and Lucas, because their buffs all drastically improved them as characters (whole Lucas had less improvement than either he was quite a bit better than both before the buffs). I could definitely see all 3 of these characters getting good results in the future but that all depends on who actually decides to pick them up.
After a week of having him, how good do you guys think Cloud is?
To me, he feels like he is at the top of mid tier. He has an admittedly terrible recovery without Limit Break, but he has great aerial game, good range, a decent projectile, and above average mobility. In addition, he has confirms to Finishing Touch and LB Cross Slash from full hop dair and nair at mid percents.
I'm not to sure how he stacks up against the top tiers, but I feel that he can take them. (Maybe except Sheik.)
To me, he feels like he is at the top of mid tier. He has an admittedly terrible recovery without Limit Break, but he has great aerial game, good range, a decent projectile, and above average mobility. In addition, he has confirms to Finishing Touch and LB Cross Slash from full hop dair and nair at mid percents.
I'm not to sure how he stacks up against the top tiers, but I feel that he can take them. (Maybe except Sheik.)
If anything, Falcon and Ganondorf are the most overrated characters in the game. Both characters have numerous flaws, such as being easy to combo, having terrible recovery, and poor frame data. Ganondorf is especially bad in this game because he has virtually nothing to deal with rolling, with his only tool against it being wizkick, a risky move with virtually no reward.
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Cloud is one of those characters who's every move is great. There won't be a time where any of your moves has been staled several times because you have so many options (unless you're spamming, which isn't that bad since Cloud spam isn't that hard to deal with and staling you Blade Beam means your aerials and stronger moves are fresh). Even Climhazzard is useful offensively. Going into Limit Break makes you alot better as you have three great kill options and way better recovery. It also puts alot of pressure onthe opponent, one false move and they die.
From my experience, all of Cloud's matchups are doable. Even Shiek. Let her do her 0-70 combo and from there she can't do anything because she has no kill moves. Just don't go offstage or you pretty much lose a stock.
There are two ways you can use Cloud's Limit Break in my opinion. Don't charge it at all except when you use it to cancel your lag or bait your enemy, or charge it as fast as possible in order to be faster, have slightly better combo potential, a recovery move that doesn't suck, and constant pressure on your opponent. I'd say the way you use limit break depends on matchup.
From my experience, all of Cloud's matchups are doable. Even Shiek. Let her do her 0-70 combo and from there she can't do anything because she has no kill moves. Just don't go offstage or you pretty much lose a stock.
There are two ways you can use Cloud's Limit Break in my opinion. Don't charge it at all except when you use it to cancel your lag or bait your enemy, or charge it as fast as possible in order to be faster, have slightly better combo potential, a recovery move that doesn't suck, and constant pressure on your opponent. I'd say the way you use limit break depends on matchup.
Ness and Falcon will realistically never win a national as long as Sheik, ZSS, Pikachu, Ryu, Mario, and Rosalina exist. It's the same case as Falcon and Icies in melee, they're good characters, but they'll just never win a big tournament. Falcon in sm4sh has bad matchups against all top tiers and most high tiers outside of Rosalina and maybe one or two even MUs, and Ness gets shut down by Sheik and Rosalina so hard it's ridiculous.
You gotta actually hit w/ blade beam to make it count towards staleness queue so there's that.
It's really hard to judge where he is on the tier list atm but I can say that he's at least not a bad character. He's got everything except a bad grab game and a lackluster recovery, which honestly are HUGE flaws that would otherwise undoubtedly make him top tier, but he's got enough amazing tools to balance it out and the end result is a very well-designed, very balanced character that's pretty good. None of his matchups seemed that bad to me, Sheik wins of course but nothing like 70:30 or anything.
What really saves Cloud from low tier is the fact that out of all the sword users his nair is probably the best in terms of how fast it comes out, the fact that it has really little lag/autocancels, and is an amazing spacing tool because of its range and hitbox. He also can't be needle camped to death by sheik because needles and blade beam will trade and Sheik always loses all trades.
Cheryl.
Celesteela is Life
Finally someone here who didn't cross Lucario out :Dred x means i can never realistically see them getting top 8 at a us national without buffs, a single slash means i can see it with more metagame development or good people playing them but not right now.
So how have the shieldstun changes affected your own gameplay, if at all?
I play Mario and Shulk and still feel shieldgrabbing is very powerful on the receiving end. The formula apparently gives you more frames of shieldstun than in Melee but it doesn't feel as powerful without options like SHHFL'd aerials and multishines. And perfect shielding is still just fucking overpowered in 4 (and Brawl), lol. If they had Melee powershielding, shields might even be balanced in 4.
eta: That all being said, I haven't messed around with aerial approaches since the Cloud patch. A lot of landings have been sped up.
I play Mario and Shulk and still feel shieldgrabbing is very powerful on the receiving end. The formula apparently gives you more frames of shieldstun than in Melee but it doesn't feel as powerful without options like SHHFL'd aerials and multishines. And perfect shielding is still just fucking overpowered in 4 (and Brawl), lol. If they had Melee powershielding, shields might even be balanced in 4.
eta: That all being said, I haven't messed around with aerial approaches since the Cloud patch. A lot of landings have been sped up.
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That doesn't make them unviable as secondaries or mains with secondaries covering those matchups, or even mains with bracket luck (FOW took 9th at EVO, seriously, 9th out of 2000).
The two biggest examples are Ness (now) and old Luigi, who lead to amazing performances. Larry Lurr and AnTi have had great performances at CEO and TBH5 using Luigi as a counterpick character, and Nakat is a national threat that uses Ness alongside Pikachu and Fox to create an unique triangle of coverage. Would I recommend playing 3 characters, no, but someone like Ness has such an extreme advantage state that justifies him being an amazing secondary for top tiers like ZSS and Rosalina, being able to more consistently take on the Pikachu's and Metaknight's that give them trouble.
Falcon's different, I'd argue that he's perfectly viable as a national threat if you have a CP character for Sheik/1.1.4 messes with the premature intangibility on Vanish (stomp).
The shieldstun change is literally the reason why i'm still playing this game. Robin's LS aerials being safe when space correctly is godsend.
Imagine being Lucario and being able to constantly being able to shield pressure because even though you can DI away from the Aura Sphere charge it still puts you in a position where one Aura Sphere blast can bop that shield. Then, it's always practical. :3
FOW actually got 7th :^) and Shaky's places top 8 at multiple tournaments.
I think this was going on the basis that the character would be used solo?
Bracket luck is possible but improbable, and even if the Ness player does get extremely lucky they're still likely to lose to some random Sheik lmao.
Not saying you're wrong on any of this (you're not) but saying Ness and Luigi can go far with a secondary is kind of assumed, especially considering we've seen it happen (at least the latter) multiple times before. It's just with such horrible MUs, the chances of winning a national with Ness / Luigi solo-mained is difficult and very unlikely at this point in time, as Shaky / FOW can't seem to break past 5th due to poor Ness MUs, and I don't think Mr. Con Con has ever made it to top 8 at a national.
Nope, you can still shield pressure with it. It's not something you can do with absolutely no charge, but with a quarter/half charge you can still lock in for a brief period just like you could with the previous patch.
Unpopular opinion, old school Luigi was never top tier, at the very best he was a middle zone between the worst top tier and the best high tier. His movement speed (or lack thereof) was too much for his strong combo and kill game to make up for, as was and is demonstrated by his bad matchups to most but not all top tiers.
It changed a looooot of small things that all add up in a match to the point where the change is actually really big. For starters, literally every move (except for roy's sweetspots I believe) got safer on shield, so that alone is big enough. But then there are characters like diddy who's dtilt got a huge buff because of the shield stun, and same goes to his banana, which on shield can lead to more guaranteed grabs due to shieldstun etc. Sheik's fair is even more safe on shield. ZSS's landing uair and nair can't be punished oos seeing how her frame 1 jab will beat all options. Same goes for Falcon except his jab is frame 2 and his uair is safe on shield. Ryu's fair/bair are insane on shield in terms of shieldstun + shield damage, Peach's dair is practically unpunishable on shield (used to be slightly punishable before), so ur only option is to roll out... and many other examples. They all affect tournament play.
edit: not to mention that now everything does way more shield damage than before cuz of the new shieldstun mechanics. shieldbreaks are a lot more probable and there are setups for them now.
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(godlike) melee roster
https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-3/fantasy/roster/64756e8d
smash 4 roster
https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-3/fantasy/roster/88f5037b
https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-3/fantasy/roster/64756e8d
smash 4 roster
https://smash.gg/tournament/genesis-3/fantasy/roster/88f5037b
Rooting for Ranai and Dabuzsensei as well as Armada, westballz and m2k.
Tristate will also win smash 4 crews easily.
Tristate will also win smash 4 crews easily.
post the melee fantasy in the melee thread nerd
also for crews, imo it's a close call between socal tristate and japan, can't tell who'll win
Just throwing some stuff out there.
Abadango will beat Dabuz, MK vs Rosa is free and Abadango has way more practice in it than Dabuz.
Ranai will beat Nairo and fight ZeRo in winners finals, Ranai destroyed Nairo in crew battles in Japan (going in with less stocks at the start), and then AFTER that Nairo also lost to MJG's villager.
Also fantasy. I'm pretty sure everyone that only has 10 left picked Johnny Westside at this point.
Abadango will beat Dabuz, MK vs Rosa is free and Abadango has way more practice in it than Dabuz.
Ranai will beat Nairo and fight ZeRo in winners finals, Ranai destroyed Nairo in crew battles in Japan (going in with less stocks at the start), and then AFTER that Nairo also lost to MJG's villager.
Also fantasy. I'm pretty sure everyone that only has 10 left picked Johnny Westside at this point.