In all honesty, Deej actually has a solid point to compare them. And I wouldn't say Charziard supports teams as teams support him, some players even complain in the NU room about how it's tough to pull off his sets anyways. And sure Pyroar has lacking coverage but when you think about it, being able to hit past substitutes with Hyper Voice and being able to pull off will-o-wisp is definitely not that bad. And sure Zard's choice specs hits hard but it does have counters:
If Ice attacks alone made a Pokemon, the likes of Regice, Rotom-F, and Cryogonal would not be in such deplorable positions.
You tell me; I am running out of arguments to give while the only rebuttals I've had so far fall along the lines of "Vanilluxe can do things too" without actually explaining what they are. I mean the E Ranks can 'do things too' if that's the logic used here.
I don't want to go too in-depth in to this argument because I don't want to come over as a rude, hardheaded person because I 100% respect your opinion and can see where you are coming from.
Yeah I have to agree with you here. the surprise factor isn't really a big deal, even though people normally don't really pay attention to items in the team preview. It's a good way to scout though, although I think I saw someone post something about special zard w/o an item and Acrobatics > Air Slash, which looked really promising to me. The surprise-factor is fairly small with Zard, but the same thing can be said for Pyroar. there are 3 main moves and then a toss-up between WoW, Overheat, Flame Charge, Wild Charge, or Taunt. I'd say the former ones are the most used and I haven't seen Wild Charge being used a lot at all, as it's more of a counterteam-thing.
To be honest Ive been running a more offensive variant of Steelix with 244 HP/ +176 Atk/88 SPdef that can pressure Non-Max Def Xatus that run 252hp/252 Def Timid by being able to 2hko them 26% of the time while they can only 2hko you with heat wave 14% of the time (and they have to hit twice). Plus most Xatus are switching into Lix to prevent rocks so they are playing a risky game with spamming Roost and praying you dont get a crit/high rolls. However, Max Def Xatus with Bold or Xatus with Rocky Helmet give you issues however Max Def Xatu gives up a good speed tier for things like Base 70s and it can easily get 2hkoed by Chans Ice Punch now that it cant outspeed and bop with psyshock. Also giving up on Colbur means they have to run another fighting resist. Also, giving up on a bit of spdef isnt the worst thing in the world since Tauros isnt too common and they are running Scarf mostly so they dont have the LO to 2hko you with FBlast plus they have to be locked into Fblast in the first place which is setting them back. Rambling at this point but I dont see why Lix cant get around Xatu and on more offensive teams it can just run SF LO special with rocks and easily 2hko Xatu unless it gets some CMs under its belt first.I don't want to go too in-depth in to this argument because I don't want to come over as a rude, hardheaded person because I 100% respect your opinion and can see where you are coming from.
I think there are many more things to go over on the Viability rankings, one of which I will go which is why I'm going to keep it short but here are some things that Zard has over Pyroar:
- It's a fighting check. even though it's highly pressured by SR, it can still come in on most Hariyama and Hitmonchan sets, especially the Physical wisp-set, which doesn't have an item and makes it an even easier switch-in to Knock Off. Sure, its a shaky check, but it can switch in to most things while Pyroar can't as it will easily get boned by a Mach Punch / CC.
- It has recovery in Roost and isn't limited to max. 5x switching in when SR are on the field as it can find an opportunity to Roost off most damage dealt to it when switching in to things that it resists. Zard also has actual defensive utility, which Pyroar absolutely doesn't.
Yeah I have to agree with you here. the surprise factor isn't really a big deal, even though people normally don't really pay attention to items in the team preview. It's a good way to scout though, although I think I saw someone post something about special zard w/o an item and Acrobatics > Air Slash, which looked really promising to me. The surprise-factor is fairly small with Zard, but the same thing can be said for Pyroar. there are 3 main moves and then a toss-up between WoW, Overheat, Flame Charge, Wild Charge, or Taunt. I'd say the former ones are the most used and I haven't seen Wild Charge being used a lot at all, as it's more of a counterteam-thing.
with that being said I definitely can see where you are coming from but I think Zard is right where it belongs at the higher end of A+.
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ok now I also wanted to touch on this thing as it has been sitting at A+ for way too long and I think it's good enough to be S-Rank.
A+ -> S
Steelix is pretty much a staple on almost all Balance-teams, because it is so good at what it's supposed to do. It checks so many things and there is almost no reason not to consider using it as a Rocker on stall-balance teams, and even on offensive teams that need a solid pivot + rocker.
Steelix is easily comparable to the other bulky grounds in the tier but the Steel-typing does it really well and here are some things Steelix has over Rhydon, Piloswine or Torterra.
One of the few reasons I can see for Steelix not to go S-Rank is that Xatu beats it, which is pretty huge. Regular defensive Xatu doesn't get 2HKOd by Heavy Slam and always prevents Rocks. This is a really valid argument against it going S-Rank but honestly Xatu isn't a staple on most teams and has to be wary of not getting Pursuit-trapped in order to keep SR off the field for as long as possible.
- it can switch-in and beat Musharna without too much trouble. most Musharna's run Psyshock (atleast in my experience) and even after a couple of CMs, Steelix has no trouble dealing with it as Heavy Slam + Toxic is way too much damage for Mushy to handle.
- not losing to Kangaspikes as badly as the other rockers. Steelix' immunity to Toxic Spikes, resistance to normal, combined with taking pitiful damage from Earthquake/DrainPunch.
- not having an exploitable (4x) weakness which makes it hard to lure in. Rhydon can be lured and beaten by Swellow's HP Grass while it is supposed to be a counter to Swellow. Steelix, on the other hand, is weak to Heat Wave, but 1. doesn't take that much from it and 2. will see it coming and is always wary of it.
- it will almost always get up SR, because of Sturdy. Xatu (common) and Taunt-users (not-so-common) are the only thing that stop it from getting up SR, and with the amount of spinners we have, those rocks are there to annoy your opponents team for the most of the game. most defoggers really hate Toxic too (Pelipper, Mantine) which most Steelix' run too.
There hasn't been that much discussion on Steelix, but I think there should be more posts and thoughts about it since ever since it has joined the tier it's been popular as shit, and there's a good reason for that.
I guess that's true to some extent but if you're not running Lapras for its defensive merit I'd still use Vanilluxe most of the time. It's faster (which does in fact matter against a bunch of threats I've already talked about) and a stronger Ice Beam is still useful because Water resists are more common than Ice resists. Explosion is also more effective vs most Thick Fat mons than Pump.
lol I thought this would've been obvious if you thought about it like, at all, but you're either just not understanding my points or refusing to understand. Mayhaps the reason Vanilluxe is better than some stupid LO Glalie set is that it actually WORKS in practice, and because people have found reasons to run it on certain teams? Idk why you're so fixated on comparing every other set you talk about to random shitty ones, but you're not pulling that on me. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
PU also doesn't have Sliggoo ranked. Sliggoo for E???
Thanks for respecting my opinion man, and I don't think you're rude at all. I'm just going to make one last post about Charizard going to A/A- then I'm done as I don't want to seem like I'm harping on this subject.
- You're making it sound as if LO Lapras suddenly loses all of its defensive merit, even though it still has more of it compared to Vanilluxe.
- The Glalie comment was half-facetious, it was more a jab at the concept at anything being made 'viable' if the standards are set low enough. And let's be real here, that Glalie set I suggested isn't that far off from Vanilluxe in terms of execution: you lure the Freeze-Dry resist and blow up on it, while having Ice Shard to justify its usefulness outside of that role, just that its lesser power makes it even worse at this (although its Explosion is pretty sufficiently powerful). But hey, better Speed tier and access to Spikes, that gotta mean something right?? (no, no it doesn't)
First off, when did I ever imply that you have not used Vanilluxe / theorymonning? Secondly, pot calling the kettle black here?
Rises:
Tauros A -> A+
Miltank C+ -> B
Drops:
Vanilluxe C+ -> C
Rotom-S A- -> B+
Camerupt B- -> C+Steelix A+ -> S
Dodrio C- -> C
Charizard A+ -> AAubisio We just voted on Vigoroth and Throh in the last update before this one, and I would like to see some more discussion on them with some stronger arguments and evidence to back it up before considering to move them up. I understand that these two amongst some others have received a fair amount of "hype" with the absence of Sawk and Gurdurr but just saying that its counters are gone or that it fills a gap that was left behind isn't really enough. I'm not entirely opposed to moving them up in the near future, but some more discussion on them would be appreciated, especially on Vigoroth.
I really don't agree with this. Kangaskhan has been one of the most consistent mons and has such a big influence on the current metagame that it even has an entire team archetype devoted to it, called KangaSpikes. KangaSpikes is currently one of the most popular and consistent team archetypes on the ladder, mostly because it has such a good matchup vs. most other archetypes used, even vs. stall (if played expertly, of course). most teams rely on Xatu to keep off hazards, and Kangaskhan / KangaSpikes in general does a pretty good job at pressuring Xatu. I don't think Kanga should be compared to Hariyama just because they both have Fake Out. Kangaskhan isn't used only as a Fake Out mon, but shits on phys. def walls like Weezing (adamant silk scarf Double-Edge does around 45%), something Hariyama fails to do. and yeah, of course Kangaskhan has checks and counters, but every A+ mon has that. EQ does a significant amount to Steelix, and Steelix can easily be worn down throughout the match, especially with Spikes up. I do agree with the fact that it struggles vs. stall sometimes, but Adamant Silk Scarf Double-Edge pressures things like M-Audino quite a bit, although you do weaken yourself with Recoil quite a lot.A+ => B+
I like Kanga, but I don't think he should be this high. I mean his double priority is nice, but it seems to me it's really his main thing going for him. Getting in kanga is often a 2 turn notice for rocks on your side of the field as he's not prepared to face the great majority of rock setters of the tier even if he predicts the switch (in fact if you predict, you might aswell double switch). He isn't exactly killing much walls either actually. Gourgeist large, Mushy, Maudino and probably even quag (too lazy to calc) can all take a DE and heal off. I don't have much more to elaborate, I just don't see a reason to keep him this high, he's not that strong, not that fast (short to rotom and all 95's) and doesn't beat any particular top tier mon you really have to be cautios of. He just stops sweepers but even then he's super predictable and fake out/sucker punch are 2 of the easiest moves to switch into and he's one of the easiest mons to abuse with rocky helmet (switch in on fake out and DE recoil + helmet = huge recoil). Personnaly, for similar priority options, I'd choose yama over kanga any time (even though they're very different mons, the former just fullfills a lot more roles and isn't SR bait). Kanga is also one of the shittiest mons you can get when it comes to facing the rather popular standard stall team which carries gourgeist large, steelix, Maudino and sometimes quag (2 fillers are sliggoo and something with defog for those who don't know what team archetype I'm refering to).
Put 2 decent players against each other and make them play that stall archetype team I menitonned vs kanga spikes and I would bet on stall much more than I would on kangaspikes. If kangaspikes does win it will probably be 100% due to spikes and other team members and 0% due to kanga, let's face it. The only thing kanga does threaten of that team archetype is unboosted sliggoo and probably the defogger, so he's nowhere near threatening in terms of forcing switches.
The double priority is exactly what makes Kangaskhan such a formidable threat. It means it can double up on its role as not only a strong all-out attacker, but also as a revenge killer. This, in turn, means that it can fit on a variety of teams by being a potent threat against both balance and offense at any time in the match. However, it's not like the only thing Kangaskhan does is click Fake Out all the time; Double Edge is absolutely nothing to sneeze at. It might not be able to 2HKO everything in the way, but it chunks the majority of the tier's strong physical walls very well. You mentioned how some of those mons can just "heal off" but I'd much rather put it as "they're forced to heal off" which in turn, allows you grab back the momentum immediately. It allows you to keep the pressure on even if it's not the most favoured matchup for Kanga and chunk these Pokemon for its teammates. This is very important to note in the case of offensive teams, especially Normal spam.Gonna try and fight rank inflation here
A+ => B+
I like Kanga, but I don't think he should be this high. I mean his double priority is nice, but it seems to me it's really his main thing going for him. Getting in kanga is often a 2 turn notice for rocks on your side of the field as he's not prepared to face the great majority of rock setters of the tier even if he predicts the switch (in fact if you predict, you might aswell double switch). He isn't exactly killing much walls either actually. Gourgeist large, Mushy, Maudino and probably even quag (too lazy to calc) can all take a DE and heal off. I don't have much more to elaborate, I just don't see a reason to keep him this high, he's not that strong, not that fast (short to rotom and all 95's) and doesn't beat any particular top tier mon you really have to be cautios of. He just stops sweepers but even then he's super predictable and fake out/sucker punch are 2 of the easiest moves to switch into and he's one of the easiest mons to abuse with rocky helmet (switch in on fake out and DE recoil + helmet = huge recoil). Personnaly, for similar priority options, I'd choose yama over kanga any time (even though they're very different mons, the former just fullfills a lot more roles and isn't SR bait). Kanga is also one of the shittiest mons you can get when it comes to facing the rather popular standard stall team which carries gourgeist large, steelix, Maudino and sometimes quag (2 fillers are sliggoo and something with defog for those who don't know what team archetype I'm refering to).
People have been using normal resists in NU since forever and kanga is just one of the 100 reasons to carry one (I'd be much more concerned about swellow, zangoose and tauros since practically anything that walls those walls kanga while the opposite is not true)
Refer to my last post which I quoted here
By fitting a team I mean yama can take special attacks (and status if you run guts) aka he has another role than attacking he's therefore easier to throw on a team while you'll have to make a place for kanga making it harder to not be weak to this and that. I repeat, I know kanga can do plenty of things yama can't, that's not my point.
Ofc stall's not the only thing you're gonna face, it doesn't change the fact kanga is worthless against stall... And don't tell me he's not that bad against it, kanga is pretty much the definition of a mon that's worthless against stall, it's a staller's dream mon to face! It takes damage from all hazards and his own attack, isn't immune to toxic or burn, isn't spinning or setting hazards, isn't setting up, isn't healing or pp stalling and isn't threatening to half the team which is more than enough to wall it forever.
