Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think Hoopa-U should remain A+. True that it's incredibly strong and pressures a lot of bulky and stall teams, but it's also pressured a lot as well, not wanting to switch into many things. Even with bulky and stall teams you risk being statused. And not to mention it's extremely weak to priority users such as t-flame, scizor, mega lop and mega cham and offense in general because even if it switches into a special move, it will still take a good chunk of damage. Also the defense drop on hyperspace fury(which the sets that have these are the best ones imo) makes it weaker to be pursuit trapped. I feel like this is a hit or miss pokemon. It's either going to do destroy teams or do nothing or next to nothing.

Also I think Keldeo should drop out of S into A+ or A. I never understood why this is in S rank. Yeah spamming specs scald is pretty nice, but that's all its got going for it. It's not that versatile and there are plenty of checks in the game to deal with it such as AV torn, latios, starmie, and celebi.

Also just noticed made this post while it was updated.
I really can't say anything about Hoopa-U that hasn't been said in the last 20 posts about it being one of the best mons in the metagame right now. Specs has a grand total of zero switchins and isn't nearly as much of a deadweight against faster teams as many people describe, since it can go 1 for 1 against a verity of special attackers such as Alakazam and Latios. Also, your mention that "sets that have HSF are the best" is completely false, as specs is widely considered its best set right now. Just take a look at posts by almost any other member, they state it better than I do.

Keldeo is deserving of its S rank spot due to the fact that all of its "switchins" (Slowbro, Mvenu) Are really annoyed by burns. For instance, after being burned by scald, Slowbro struggles to switch into hydro pump. Celebi is the only one really immune to this due to natural cure, but it gets torn apart by a potential HP bug. However, the biggest reason that I think Keldeo is ranked that high is due to stupidly good defensive potential for a mon that is so excellent offensively. It actually finds switchin opportunities against many dark types such as Weavile, Bisharp, and Tyranitar as well as a plethora of more passive mons like MSable and Heatean and Scizor, the latter of which isn't even too passive. This forces the opponent to make plays instead of just relying on soft checking Keldeo, or they're most likely gonna lose a mon. Keldeo also packs nice versatility between Scarf, Specs, and Sub CM, although most of the time specs is the best. Overall, it's rather easy for Keld to whittle its own checks with scald burns, and the high amount of mons it can switch into while still having outstanding offensive presence makes it easily one of the best mons in OU.
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon

Mega Banette --> D or unranked
Mega banette is not a great mon for several reasons.
  • Anyone who is familiar with Mega Banette at all will play carefully around it to avoid losing a mon to its main niche, Prankster Destiny Bond.
  • It has no Prankster on the turn it megas, making it extremely difficult to mega safely due to its ass bulk and speed.
  • Its base 165 attack is nice on paper but its poor speed tier makes it overly reliant on Shadow Sneak which has poor power.
  • Its strongest move (Gunk Shot) isn't even stab just because of how pitiful the power of Shadow Claw is.
  • Mega Banette has a huge case of 4mss. It normally runs Destiny Bond | Gunk Shot | Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch | Filler, but it has so many options for filler (Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Disable, Knock Off, Toxic) and it really wishes it could run them all.
  • It has no notable boosting moves or strong attacks
  • In a trick room setting, Mega Banette still faces harsh competition from Mega Heracross and Mega Camerupt who both hit significantly harder, and also have much more spammable and powerful stab than it does.
  • When you consider the other, better mons in C rank like Dugtrio and Magneton, its hard to say Mega Banette truly belongs there.
  • Keldeo and Torn-T, some of the most common mons in the meta right now, give it huge issues.
  • Specs Hoopa-U, which is also very common right now, literally destroys it because Will-O-Wisp doesn't cripple special attackers.
  • There isn't a lot of reason to use it over Klefki besides offensive presence, and Prankster Will-O-Wisp can be provided by pre/non mega Sableye.
 
While the lower ranks are being tidied, I'd like to suggest Nidoqueen to D

Nidoqueen's supposed niche over Nidoking is it's added bulk at the cost of a little power, which seems like a reasonable quality to focus on as an offensive hazard setter. However, Nidoking is a niche enough hazard setter as it is and his main pro is that a lot of defoggers and spinners can't switch in on his coverage and decent power when boosted by LO and Sheer Force; he himself is also able to switch in on a lot of more passive defoggers for that reason, although he is himself forced out by a lot of offensive defoggers or spinners (Starmie, Latis and Excadrill being the main ones). Nidoqueen is still beaten or at least heavily pressured by all of the same mons, and although her better bulk can, with a defensive set, save her from a couple of 1HKOs or 2HKOs, in order to do that she has to sacrifice the ability to pressure those mons in return, effectively allowing them all to switch in for free. There are just so many better defensive entry hazard setters available in OU, toxic spikes and Sheer Force boosted attacks (which are still pretty weak) being her only relevant niche over most of them. The main reason to pick Nidoqueen as a defensive hazard setter is that she can soft check Mega Manectric while healthy. Even then, Tentacruel and Scollipede are usually (depending on the situation and team) better setters of Toxic Spikes, and with Protect+EQ included Scollipede can check Mega Manectric too in some situations.

EDIT: all that said about Nidoqueen as a bulky toxic spiker with some offensive presence, I've also realised that Dragalge exists too.

Naturally as an offensive hazard setter she's just entirely outclassed by Nidoking.

Her relative weakness compared to Nidoking is sort of already reflected but tbh I think her tiny and extremely team-specific niches are more at home in D rank.

Similar note, what is Froslass doing? Sure, nothing else has her combination of Spikes, Destiny Bond and Ghost typing, particularly with her speed tier, but those could be listed as reasons to try to use it in any tier... doesn't mean it's actually viable - what specifically does it achieve that can actually yield results in OU to make it any more viable than the average D rank mon...? Could anyone shed some light on this, please? I'm sure I'm missing something. If not, I'll nom that to D too. As an offensive hazard setter, it's successfully pressured by enough common threats including most priority users and all relevant magic bouncers while it's just too weak to offensively pressure anything in return; resultantly, using it in OU can in all but the most select of situations end up just making one's own life more difficult for oneself, when there are just better offensive Spikes users around. It's not a terrible mon, but as a hazard setter it's no better or worse than Roserade which is just functionally different (and also has much better offensive presence and more valuable utility), and also resides in D rank. The main issue with Froslass as a hazard setter is that it only really fits on certain hazard stacking HO variants as a Sash lead, which is a niche in itself, and the existence of better offensive spikers like Scolipede means that any higher than D is really overselling how relevant Froslass really is to the metagame.
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
While the lower ranks are being tidied, I'd like to suggest Nidoqueen to D

Nidoqueen's supposed niche over Nidoking is it's added bulk at the cost of a little power, which seems like a reasonable quality to focus on as an offensive hazard setter. However, Nidoking is a niche enough hazard setter as it is and his main pro is that a lot of defoggers and spinners can't switch in on his coverage and decent power when boosted by LO and Sheer Force; he himself is also able to switch in on a lot of more passive defoggers for that reason, although he is himself forced out by a lot of offensive defoggers or spinners (Starmie, Latis and Excadrill being the main ones). Nidoqueen is still beaten or at least heavily pressured by all of the same mons, and although her better bulk can, with a defensive set, save her from a couple of 1HKOs or 2HKOs, in order to do that she has to sacrifice the ability to pressure those mons in return, effectively allowing them all to switch in for free. There are just so many better defensive entry hazard setters available in OU, toxic spikes and Sheer Force boosted attacks (which are still pretty weak) being her only relevant niche over most of them. The main reason to pick Nidoqueen as a defensive hazard setter is that she can soft check Mega Manectric while healthy. Even then, Tentacruel and Scollipede are usually (depending on the situation and team) better setters of Toxic Spikes, and with Protect+EQ included Scollipede can check Mega Manectric too in some situations.

Naturally as an offensive hazard setter she's just entirely outclassed by Nidoking.

Her relative weakness compared to Nidoking is sort of already reflected but tbh I think her tiny and extremely team-specific niches are more at home in D rank.

Similar note, what is Froslass doing? Sure, nothing else has her combination of Spikes, Destiny Bond and Ghost typing, particularly with her speed tier, but those could be listed as reasons to try to use it in any tier... doesn't mean it's actually viable - what specifically does it achieve that can actually yield results in OU to make it any more viable than the average D rank mon...? Could anyone shed some light on this, please? I'm sure I'm missing something. If not, I'll nom that to D too. As an offensive hazard setter, it's successfully pressured by enough common threats including most priority users and all relevant magic bouncers while it's just too weak to offensively pressure anything in return; resultantly, using it in OU can in all but the most select of situations end up just making one's own life more difficult for oneself, when there are just better offensive Spikes users around. It's not a terrible mon, but as a hazard setter it's no better or worse than Roserade which is just functionally different (and also has much better offensive presence and more valuable utility), and also resides in D rank.
Well Roserade doesnt have Taunt while having one of its primary STABs be that where it can always pressure the normal rockers in Chomp / Lando-T with the latter being so omnipresent in the meta already. It also sports a higher speed tier than Roserade so that its not savaged by the increase of SD Garchomps on offense which normally consolidate the rocker role as well. It's able to set up Spikes and while having the option to run Thunder Wave to nurture a handful of base 100s such as the likes of Zards and when about to faint can force a Destiny Bond mindgame in its favor to either Taunt or set up more spikes. I think Roserades offensive utility is a bit misleading and a waste of a slot on any offense most times and you're not giving Froslass enough credit as to what it annoys in the Roserade v Froslass comparison. I think all in all in the whole scheme of things neither of these are particularly "viable" but I'd use Froslass on an offense for the higher speed tier and the fact it doesnt give anything big utilizing its STABs to threaten two big threats in the metagame from hurting you or rocking up. Roserade doesnt have the speed tier or functionality to do this without giving up something huge (picking between HP Ice or Fire) while having no Taunt to prevent opposing hazards or slow down defensive walls for an offense that Froslass would find itself on. Dropping it down out of lack of relevancy would be ok but then you should probably just unrank Roserade cause it has less relevancy in the meta and outside of shits and giggles doesnt normally warrant a slot.

I'm ok with Nidoqueen dropping but not for the reason Nidoking would be an adequate enough rocker in its place when Nidoking wants to be doing so many other things than being a rocker like having a coverage move or Sucker Punch.
 

false

maybe this is heaven
is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a defending SPL Championis a defending SCL Champion
Whoops, I made some edits to my original post (bc bengay won Stour and I didn't want M-Camerupt to die, RIP), but I never posted them. For some reason what I'd written was still in the text box, I didnt mean to post that, so just never mind me *-*

Anyway, Can I nom Magneton for a raise? I tested it a bit, and I think there are a ton of situations where the extra Speed is actually useful. Sure Magneton isn't going to be as reliable for Scizor, and Ferro, but it can still trap many variants of them, and the ability for Magneton to outspeed stuff like Torn-T, Weavile, Talonflame, all very popular Pokemon currently, is surely worth more than a C ranking. C+ is justified when you consider that it's still a pretty reliable trapper, something which can be absolutely gamechanging in certain matchups (Magnezone is A-), but has a slightly different niche. I think if you're going to choose a Scarf Magne to use, usually I end up thinking Magneton is the way to go.

Also, what about Azelf? I know it only has 1 real set, the Sash lead, but it's unparalleled as the best lead on HO teams by a long long stretch, and with access to stuff like Skill Swap, Explosion, Taunt, Fire Blast, Iron Tail, and Dazzling Gleam, it can win all sorts of matchups, even against Magic Bouncers. It beats almost every other lead I can think of (besides Aerodactyl, but that thing is garbage). For what it is, it's incredibly effective and reliable, and I think it deserves to be ranked higher than C+. HO is super common, and Azelf is by far the best lead out there.
 
Last edited:

Mega Banette --> D or unranked
Mega banette is not a great mon for several reasons.
  • Anyone who is familiar with Mega Banette at all will play carefully around it to avoid losing a mon to its main niche, Prankster Destiny Bond.
  • It has no Prankster on the turn it megas, making it extremely difficult to mega safely due to its ass bulk and speed.
  • Its base 165 attack is nice on paper but its poor speed tier makes it overly reliant on Shadow Sneak which has poor power.
  • Its strongest move (Gunk Shot) isn't even stab just because of how pitiful the power of Shadow Claw is.
  • Mega Banette has a huge case of 4mss. It normally runs Destiny Bond | Gunk Shot | Shadow Sneak/Sucker Punch | Filler, but it has so many options for filler (Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Taunt, Disable, Knock Off, Toxic) and it really wishes it could run them all.
  • It has no notable boosting moves or strong attacks
  • In a trick room setting, Mega Banette still faces harsh competition from Mega Heracross and Mega Camerupt who both hit significantly harder, and also have much more spammable and powerful stab than it does.
  • When you consider the other, better mons in C rank like Dugtrio and Magneton, its hard to say Mega Banette truly belongs there.
  • Keldeo and Torn-T, some of the most common mons in the meta right now, give it huge issues.
  • Specs Hoopa-U, which is also very common right now, literally destroys it because Will-O-Wisp doesn't cripple special attackers.
  • There isn't a lot of reason to use it over Klefki besides offensive presence, and Prankster Will-O-Wisp can be provided by pre/non mega Sableye.
I just talked about Mega Banette on the metagame discussion thread so I guess I'll defend it here. I'm wondering if you've used Banette recently since I thought he was pretty shitty too till I actually tried him out, and a lot of the points you made don't actually have any weight behind them.
1. Yeah everyone knows that Mega Banette is running Destiny Bond, that's pretty much the only reason to use your mega slot on him, but that doesn't make it any less effective. The only way to get around DB w/out your own priority or switching out is by either using status (burn, toxic) or trying to PP stall it out. The latter is really dangerous because of his low speed, meaning he gets a free turn to attack while DB is still active, and he can set it up again before you move. Toxic can be a problem if your not running taunt but wisp is really easy to see coming, and every team has a switch in to that move.
3. & 4. Sucker Punch is better than Shadow Sneak since it can actually OHKO Latios, otherwise yeah he is slow and Shadow Claw is disappointingly weak.
5. He does have a case of 4MSS but it's not as bad as you make it to be. DB, Gunk Shot, Sucker Punch and filler is more than enough to for it to do it's job, and of the moves you mentioned only Taunt, Wisp, Knock Off, and Shadow Claw have real merit. Without Taunt you're going to struggle against stall but finding a stallbreaker in ORAS isn't very difficult, while the choice between the other three moves is really just preference.
7. Being outclassed by other megas in Trick Room doesn't hold any bearing on his ranking since no one has ever used Banette on a TR team effectively.
8. I agree that Duggy is better but that's doesn't mean Banette has to drop a rank. Unlike the two mons you mentioned Banette is never dead weight in a match unless your facing full stall, and if your packing Taunt then you actually do really well against it, while still being effective against offence.
9. Neither of those mons appreciate a burn, and Torn-T can't switch in. (Gunk Shot/Shadow Claw + Sucker Punch kills). Keldeo needs to be at >85% health to switch in to avoid the being picked off with Sucker.
10. Hoopa-U can't switch in, and takes around 75% from Sucker. Worst case scenario Banette uses Destiny Bond and sacs itself to take out the most threatening wallbreaker in OU.
11. Klefki and Banette literally only have Prankster in common, so it's not like they compete for a team slot. Klefki is actually one of the best teammates for Banette since he can switch into almost every Dark type comfortably bar Bisharp, while Banette supports Klefki by being a psuedo spin blocker and threatening every relevant hazard remover in OU, while also forcing switches through Wisp and Destiny Bond to take advantage of spikes. If you just want priority wisp then yeah Sableye is a better choice but he doesn't have the offensive power of Banette or Destiny Bond.

I agree with all of your other points but that's why he's in C rank and not higher. Nothing has really changed recently to make him any worse, in fact the recent drop in popularity in Dark Spam actually benefits him.
 
Well Roserade doesnt have Taunt while having one of its primary STABs be that where it can always pressure the normal rockers in Chomp / Lando-T with the latter being so omnipresent in the meta already. It also sports a higher speed tier than Roserade so that its not savaged by the increase of SD Garchomps on offense which normally consolidate the rocker role as well. It's able to set up Spikes and while having the option to run Thunder Wave to nurture a handful of base 100s such as the likes of Zards and when about to faint can force a Destiny Bond mindgame in its favor to either Taunt or set up more spikes. I think Roserades offensive utility is a bit misleading and a waste of a slot on any offense most times and you're not giving Froslass enough credit as to what it annoys in the Roserade v Froslass comparison. I think all in all in the whole scheme of things neither of these are particularly "viable" but I'd use Froslass on an offense for the higher speed tier and the fact it doesnt give anything big utilizing its STABs to threaten two big threats in the metagame from hurting you or rocking up. Roserade doesnt have the speed tier or functionality to do this without giving up something huge (picking between HP Ice or Fire) while having no Taunt to prevent opposing hazards or slow down defensive walls for an offense that Froslass would find itself on. Dropping it down out of lack of relevancy would be ok but then you should probably just unrank Roserade cause it has less relevancy in the meta and outside of shits and giggles doesnt normally warrant a slot.

I'm ok with Nidoqueen dropping but not for the reason Nidoking would be an adequate enough rocker in its place when Nidoking wants to be doing so many other things than being a rocker like having a coverage move or Sucker Punch.
Thanks for this, Taunt was the thing in front of my face that my brain missed out as being relevant. In which case, dropping them both out of lack of relevance is more or less what I'd be getting at if I were to try to say anything that I hadn't already. Even with Taunt, I can't really see Froslass needing to be ranked any higher than D, if at all, and just because it's better than Roserade in theory doesn't actually make either of them relevant so Roserade could probably go unranked (and tbh so could Froslass but I'm not fussy really, it's just definitely not any bigger a niche than D if it has a niche at all)...

Re Nido's, when I compare Queen to King offensively my main point is that if one wants to use Queen as an offensive rocker with 3 attacks and SR (rather than using a bulky build, the only real reason to use Nidoqueen in OU), there's absolutely no reason to use her over Nidoking. I certainly agree that King can't always find room for rocks himself when he wants to fit in both stabs, coverage and Sucker Punch, but that doesn't really change the fact that the simple possibility of a 3 attacks + SR set on 'King just wipes out any reason to do it with 'Queen.

I suppose the main issue with her that hits her viability is that in order to make use of her bulk with a bulkier spread and double hazards or single hazard and Roar/Taunt, she sacrifices some of the power and coverage necessary to pressure all the hazard removers that could switch in like defensive Starmie, Mega Scizor and Latias, and an offensive set to hit all of these harder is quite simply done better by Nidoking. She wants to make it difficult for all of those things to switch in, but bulky spreads make that a lot harder and if she's not running a bulkier spread, why use her over Nidoking, regardless of 'King's viability as a 3 attacks rocker?As for actual meta changes that hit her viability since she's been in C-:
- Defensive BoltBeam Mega Latias outspeeds bulky 'Queens to Recover, is only 3HKO'd at best by 'Queen's Ice Beam, can 2HKO her with it's own Ice Beam (guaranteed after Rocks, 95% ish without), and also has the option of Defogging her hazards away if it's sacrificed a moveslot to Defog.
- Nidoqueen without SpA investment is a free switch for all variants of Hoopa-U (dealing 30% at the most with Earth Power), and giving Specs or Mixed LO Hoopa-U a free switch in is just asking for trouble.

Both of these are fine with significant SpA investment on 'Queen, but again if it wants to run offensive spreads and coverage, why not use Nidoking?

So yeah, just cause King isn't himself worth using as a rocker in OU, he still has much better possibilities as an offensive rocker than 'Queen, which wipes out one of 'Queen's potential niches, and I think that 'Queen's defensive hazard set is worthy of D rank at best, not really any higher. And, yeah, also, Mega Latias and Hoopa-U are things nowadays.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life

Mandibuzz to C+ or Lower

As much as I like Mandibuzz, there really isn't a point to using him in this meta. One of the main reasons to use Mandibuzz is as a semi-reliable answer to Hoopa-U, but sadly it isn't even an answer to it anymore because of the popularity of Specs Hoopa-U and how common Thunderbolt is on it as a last moveslot, making even Mandibuzz a liability against most Hoopa-Us. It still does wall some other notable threats though, such as Breloom, so there's still a niche to using it on specific teams, but I really don't see much of a use for it when there are better Defoggers out there, and when it's niche of being a check to Hoopa-Unbound is nullified in this meta. I think it's just really niche compared to the other mons in B-, and that's why it should drop imo.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Mega Banette is heavily overrated. Even in its home tier (RU), where it has the least opportunity cost of being a Mega, Mega Banette is ranked in the bare minimum of C-, while UU doesn't even looks its way.

The niche of 'Prankster Destiny Bond' is unique, but the costs associated with making it work are just so overwhelming it's not even worth it anymore. While Prankster Destiny Bond is fairly tricky to maneuver around, the fundamental flaw of Mega Banette, aside from the fact that Prankster doesn't activate turn 1, is that it has a really difficult time KOing what it needs to. This is because Banette's KOing options outside of using Destiny Bond are actually extremely limited, and most foes get to choose what to sac against Mega Banette. Mega Banette may force out most setup sweepers, but most of the time it ends up trading with the opponent's fodder; usually this trade is against your favor since you've used up your Mega slot and your opponent's sweeper, while temporarily halted, is still alive.

Like it or not, Mega Banette has an extreme case of 4MSS, which only seems to escalate as it moves up the tiers. If you forgo Protect, you better find a time for Banette to safely Mega Evolve before shit goes down, or Banette would just end up as a tiny speedbump against your opponent's sweep, and in OU, this is really hard to do without the risk of Banette getting crippled in some way, if not outright getting KOed. Then you want a non-priority attack, like Gunk Shot, Knock Off, or Shadow Claw, to facilitate Prankster Destiny Bond, so that you can alternate between attacks to do damage while keeping DBond active. Then you have your tech move in the form of Taunt, Wisp, and/or Sucker Punch, and no matter what you choose, Mega Banette would still find itself walled or be fodder for a numerous amount of mons in the tier.

To make matters worse, it's not even the hardest thing in the world to circumvent Prankster Destiny Bond, primarily due to the fact that Mega Banette has an incredibly rough time against most bulky Pokemon, such as Mega Sableye, Heatran, Gliscor, Rotom-W, Skarmory, etc..., and nearly all of them have some move, mostly status, to neuter Mega Banette. Certain faster attackers with priority, such as Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, offensive Mega Scizor, and Weavile, can bypass Mega Banette as well, so you're not even truly safe against some of the prominent sweepers of the tier.

Then there's the opportunity cost. Mega Banette operates in such a way that its user would have to operate in a '5v5' mentality, but due to the fact that the opponent gets to choose what to sac and the fact that the Mega Banette user can't use another Mega yourself, the Mega Banette user is functioning at an even greater deficit than desired. If Mega Latios's fate is anything to go by, it's that throwing away the Mega slot is entirely undesirable, and it heavily limits the amount of teams you can build around Mega Banette.

Finally, 'blanket checks' to general offensive Pokemon almost never work out well, much like the same reason Ditto never took off. Teambuilding should always take specific threats into account instead of attempting to check every single offensive mon in the meta; it is always more efficient to use a more specialized check which handles a particular threat to your team, as it can have general uses outside of that role. Mega Banette is a 'do or die' kind of Pokemon, but it has to die pretty much every time and ends up not doing much that other Pokemon cannot do, or even much in general (again, the opponent can just sacrifice their less valuable Pokemon to Mega Banette). At this rate, I'd rather use Ditto itself over Mega Banette to 'blanket check' sweepers, because at least it is immediately effective and doesn't cost the Mega slot.

Mega Banette to unranked / D
 
i disagree. have used mega banette multiple times and i feel like it performs as an effective niche mega in the current metagame. first of all, i would like to address that viability in ru has no correlation to ou. i am going to comment on some points you have made:

the trade cost of letting your mega die is not completely centralized around every scenario a sweeper sets up. for example, your opponent is like swag i got a mega gyarados/megalop/sdchomp/excadrill, are you really going to waste destiny bond? or use will-o-wisp. the latter of course and destiny bond should be used in last ditch situations when you know the puppet is going to die. you may say special sweepers, but this metagame is more physically based.

the fact you mentioned 4mss makes me rethink if you have any credibility to speak about this pokemon. have you ever used this thing? there is only one good set and that shadow sneak, gunk shot, will-o-wisp, destiny bond which is able to threaten a lot of stuff behind its attacks and utility moves. predictability actually aids mega banette because of how much of a threat it is to "exaggerated" offense (and i say that for a reason because you and many other people act like the metagame has only one playstyle). protect isn't needed when shadow sneak or gunk shot gets you free mega evolution in a lot of scenarios. even the threat of bluffing other moves like sucker punch for example.

half the bulky 'mons you selected are crippled by will-o-wisp or just shitted on by common pokemon in the current metagame. it is c rank for a reason. no need to cherry pick pokemon to drop it when those are just a few pokemon that it struggles against and not even if you adjust coverage to make your team better (even though i say there is only one good set, it is still possible).

not going to refute the 5v5 because it is already implied through its range of utility moves. ditto never took off because it isn't its own 'mon. it copies the opponent and no, mega banette can cripple things with wisp and destiny bond takes out bulk up and calm mind sweepers which ditto cannot do.

it is fine in c rank imho
 
Last edited:

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Not gonna make too big of a post cause for some reason im awake at 4 am (I blame easter chocolate), but i've used banette a fair chunk and want to touch on one thing which is really starting to get old in the many conversations that I have had about Mega Banette.

People are seriously underselling the utility of Prankster D-Bond+Wisp on this thing. I see people basically saying "eh Sableye gets Wisp too" and "eh people expect D-bond" and passing them off as if they are afterthoughts. Quite frankly the idea that anyone is passing off Prankster D-Bond is utterly stupid. Yes, people expect it, but quite frankly this overexpectancy is what makes it such a dangerous tool. While using Destiny Bond as a fast Pokémon such as Gengar achieves its goal through surprise value, in the case of Banette (where literally every single one uses it) it funcions in an entirely different way: it messes with your opponent's head. I know that a D-bond is gonna come some time or another, but I also know that I don't particularly want to eat one of this thing's disgustingly-powerful Gunk Shots or Shadow Sneaks. This kind of psychological warfare (for lack of a better term) is precisely what made Aegislash so scary for physical attackers, and it is exactly what makes LO Tornadus such a dangerous attacker. The simple threat of it a Destiny Bond (its equivalent to Aegislash's King's Shield and Tornadus-T/I's Hurricane) clouds judgement and forces people into a corner where they start to overrationalise the situation. This is huge--especially against offense--and it allows it to put massive pressure onto players and allows you to actively take advantage of paranoya.

As an aside, while Vertex says that only Bond+Gunk+Wisp+Sneak is good (and honestly people are severely overrating the effect of this thing's so-called "4mss" because it lierally doesn't wish it had anything outside of these beyond that "I wish I could have my entire movepool at once" thing that applies to literally every Pokémon in the game), I have used Thunder Wave to great success on this thing (over Wisp) without feeling like I was particularly missing out. Both really good, but basically my point with that is that it has some vereatility without feeling like it misses out on something when it uses said versatility.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
the trade cost of letting your mega die is not completely centralized around every scenario a sweeper sets up. for example, your opponent is like swag i got a mega gyarados/megalop/sdchomp/excadrill, are you really going to waste destiny bond? or use will-o-wisp. the latter of course and destiny bond should be used in last ditch situations when you know the puppet is going to die. you may say special sweepers, but this metagame is more physically based.
See the thing about using Wisp against those sweepers is that if you'd still want some soft switch-in to them after you've burned them; otherwise there is no difference in simply just Destiny Bonding them to death. Also funny you mentioned SD Chomp when it could very easily be Lum.

the fact you mentioned 4mss makes me rethink if you have any credibility to speak about this pokemon. have you ever used this thing? there is only one good set and that shadow sneak, gunk shot, will-o-wisp, destiny bond which is able to threaten a lot of stuff behind its attacks and utility moves. predictability actually aids mega banette because of how much of a threat it is to "exaggerated" offense (and i say that for a reason because you and many other people act like the metagame has only one playstyle). protect isn't needed when shadow sneak or gunk shot gets you free mega evolution in a lot of scenarios. even the threat of bluffing other moves like sucker punch for example.
Yes I have used this thing, and dabbled with it in other tiers as well, and I have to say Mega Banette is, for the most part, far more trouble than it is worth. Also I appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth; when did I imply the metagame only has one playstyle? The fact that I brought up numerous bulky mons that fit on balance would suggest otherwise. Meanwhile, you're exaggerating the opportunities for Mega Banette to safely get its Mega Evolution off; short of weakened frail Psychics, Gengar, and Clefable with prior damage, there are few chances in which Banette can Mega Evolve without the risk of status or getting OHKOed.

half the bulky 'mons you selected are crippled by will-o-wisp or just shitted on by common pokemon in the current metagame. it is c rank for a reason. no need to cherry pick pokemon to drop it when those are just a few pokemon that it struggles against and not even if you adjust coverage to make your team better (even though i say there is only one good set, it is still possible).
not going to refute the 5v5 because it is already implied through its range of utility moves. ditto never took off because it isn't its own 'mon. it copies the opponent and no, mega banette can cripple things with wisp and destiny bond takes out bulk up and calm mind sweepers which ditto cannot do.
At least they don't get shitted on from their own fundamental issues as much as Mega Banette, such as its difficulty in KOing most foes without the aid of Destiny Bond (again, opponents choose what to sac, and how you gonna beat most BU / CM sweepers like Talonflame, Manaphy, Suicune, even the likes of Reuniclus and Slowbro?) and susceptibility to residual damage, only compounded by the former issue and the fact that it is hazard fodder for...pretty much everything (if they don't mind getting burned / whittled that is). You even managed to contradict yourself when you say it can afford to adjust its coverage when you say it only has one good viable set; half the reason I even looked at this puppet's direction is because Gunk Shot plows through Clefable which otherwise laughs at Mega Banette, and swapping out Wisp alone leaves Banette vulnerable to nearly every Steel-type in the tier, so its moveset leaves very little room for change.

Plus, Mega Banette has just an absolutely asinine time finding its way onto teams; it's not a Pokemon you can try to build a team around, it offers pretty much little to zero defensive synergy, and it is a support Pokemon that costs your Mega. None of the C Rank and lower mons (Ditto included) offer as strict teambuilding constraints, and it can be argued that Mega Banette weakens overall team structures in the same manner that Mega Latios does. It's the kind of mon that can be easily substituted for a more specialized mon depending on the individual team; Mega Banette shouldn't really be ranked on account of its raw effectiveness alone (which isn't even that stellar) and just shun the costs / competition entirely.

gamer boy, now Thunder Wave is something that is nearly entirely eclipsed by Destiny Bond in function. If the opponent decides to kamikaze into Mega Banette, you have a 75% chance of simply dying anyway, at which point you might as well have Destiny Bonded. It can affect switch-ins unlike Destiny Bond, but most of them barely even mind, particularly the Steel-types like I mentioned earlier.
 

AM

is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
LCPL Champion
Yo let's chill with the "did you start playing competitive OU?" or "you clearly don't play OU" remarks as the foundation of your argument so lightly cause some just dude deleted his comment cause of it and I agree it's a little off putting to see that kind of stuff. No one is that good or informed in a game of Pokemon of all things to ever be throwing out that line in a serious manner. That's just my two cents.
 
I feel like a lot fo people already said it but, why isnt Sableye S rank? He beats most of A rank pokes and only struggles vs Clef. Also its ability is pretty broken considering he also works as a spinblocker and has priority prankster as well before megaevoling. orth rank S imo. If you arent running a specs or aband, you cant 2hko MegaSableye.
 
I feel like a lot fo people already said it but, why isnt Sableye S rank? He beats most of A rank pokes and only struggles vs Clef. Also its ability is pretty broken considering he also works as a spinblocker and has priority prankster as well before megaevoling. orth rank S imo. If you arent running a specs or aband, you cant 2hko MegaSableye.

Fairy types run through him with ease, and Hoopa doesn't really have any issues muscling past either. Sure, you wall a lot of things and Magic Bounce is great, but strong sweepers like the Zards (X uses you as setup bait and Y OHKOs the standard set with Fire Blast), Manaphy, NP Thundurus, and others just run through you with ease.

Plus, Mega Sableye loses to Specs/LO Keldeo and all Clefable, as well as many Hoopa sets too.
 

MANNAT

Follow me on twitch!
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Fairy types run through him with ease, and Hoopa doesn't really have any issues muscling past either. Sure, you wall a lot of things and Magic Bounce is great, but strong sweepers like the Zards (X uses you as setup bait and Y OHKOs the standard set with Fire Blast), Manaphy, NP Thundurus, and others just run through you with ease.

Plus, Mega Sableye loses to Specs/LO Keldeo and all Clefable, as well as many Hoopa sets too.
To be fair, Hoopa can't switch into foul play at all since even special sets take north of 60% from foul play and is liable to getting pursuit trapped by ttar later in the match. However, the fact that sab struggles with fire types and fairies is something that shouldn't be ignored
 
Discussion atm is a bit circular and/or pointless (i.e. if someone makes an obviously uninformed nomination, just ignore it) so I figured I'd bring up some talking points. Probably a couple of these are a bit controversial so that will be fun.

M-Sableye A+ => A Ultimate momentum killer against most teams nowadays. Zero speed, few resistances and only average defenses mean that even in favourable matchups Sableye can find it difficult to come in, and then has to spam Recover anyway. If you also consider all the incredibly dangerous threats which get free switches against it, the fact that stall is fairly mediocre at the moment, and the Mega opportunity cost, it's pretty apparent Sableye is in no way deserving of S right now as was recently argued. If I'm building stall at the moment I'd prefer to just incorporate hazard resistance into the team than gear everything towards supporting Sableye.

M-Absol C- => D

We've gone over why this is bad time and time again, and I think I'm yet to see anybody either support it or show consistent success with it. Could be unranked for all I care, it's just not an effective Pokemon.

Gourgeist-XL D => C-

Fits on very few teams but Gourgeist is a reasonably effective mon that at least soft checks the majority of physical attackers. Wisp and the Fighting immunity allow it to perform situationally better in this role than the likes of Celebi and Chesnaught. The meta isn't all that favourable to it atm with the Specs Hoopa hype but I think C- is still reasonable.

Magneton C => B-

Scarf Magneton has such clear niches over Magnezone (Torn-T, Weav et al) that it doesn't make sense for it to be this low. The significantly lower defenses hardly matter in many scenarios.

Roserade D => C-

This one is probably bias but whatever. Offensive (Toxic) Spiker sets are surprisingly annoying for a lot of teams, and the amazing physically defensive Roserade (TM) makes a nice niche counter for Azu, Keld etc on teams which need the hazard support.

Shaymin C- => D

If offensive Shaymin is the best 6th mon for your team, you're always better off just changing the rest of your team. Physically defensive with Aromatherapy is too passive to be usable. Solid niches in theory but they aren't borne out in practise.

Sableye D => C

Decent mon which I think would be higher already if M-Sableye didn't overshadow it, notwithstanding its admittedly serious flaws. Major headache for lots of offensive teams and even some balances.

Finally I wanted to bring Ditto up for discussion, largely because I haven't see any. Ditto safeguards against offensive boosting threats and has significant utility in copying Defog / hazards etc etc etc. Works on some bulkier slow VoltTurn teams that I've seen. Of course, it places massive constraints on teambuilding and can be heavily prediction reliant, but you can say that about a lot of low-ranked Pokemon, many of which bring less to the table than Ditto.
 


Houston, we have a problem. (ORAS Mega Sprites are broken LOL).

AM Edit: This is fixed now thanks.

Numera Reply Edit: No problem, glad to be of service.


Anyway I'd like to support Magneton for B- because in all honesty I'm finding more and more reasons to run this over Scarf Zone, specifically Torn-T and Weavile just as Clair said. While dark spam is a little more common these days Torn-T is extremely common and good atm and being able to outspeed it with what is supposed to be my birdspam check feels natural and is extremely helpful, not to mention how much of a nuisance LO Torn-T is to offence in the first place so it's nice to have the solid check. No higher though, because it kinda loses out on the trapping department lol.
 
Last edited:
Sorry if I point out this, but regular Diancie is missing from the Viability ranking list despite having the Trick Room set available in the OU dex and this set works without the Megastone.
Look there http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/diancie/.

Considering how useful Trick Room can be in a HO meta (basically hindering for some turns many frail fast attackers), I suggest a preliminary ranking of C- because D rank seems too harsh for this suicide lead.
I think that regular Diancie should be ranked because that set is listed for the OU dex ===> if it is written there, it is considered viable in OU (even though Mega Diancie is clearly better).

P.S. If regular Trick Room Diancie is not viable, why is it mentioned with a specific set? Otherwise it seems counterintuitive to me.
 
Last edited:
Trick Room is way too rare and inconsistent to consider ranking a Pokemon just because it makes a decent setter (one of many). Diancie can also run a decent physically defensive set on stall with dual STAB, Heal Bell and Rocks (or another 4th move), which isn't directly outclassed by anything. But you can say the same about a huge number of unranked Pokemon (Gogoat, Lanturn, Torterra, Stunfisk off the top of my head). Good teambuilders can go looking for these Pokemon to fill a very specific niche, but as a guide for newer players, it would be counterproductive to represent these mons as being viable.
 
Hello everyone, I would like to bring up some arguments about a pokemon that should rise.

First off
Azumarill should move to S. This pokemon is amazing in the current meta right now. With a great offensive and defensive typing that few OU pokemon resist, this pokemon is truly metagame defining. Azumarill 2HKOs a very large majority of the tier. It is an stellar wallbreaker and unlike most wallbreakers it is not bad against offense at all. Azumarill has great defensive stats which lets take a hit or 2 before dying, because of this it is basically guaranteed a kill vs offense as most pokemon struggle to even take one hit from this 150 base attack monster. Combine this with Aqua Jet, which OHKOs M-Diancie, Offensive Excadrill, Talonflame, Alakazam, M-Aerodactyl and 2HKOs Thundurus, Weavile, M-Gallade, Gengar, Tornadus, and M-Lopunny. This thing is great against offense unlike a lot wallbreakers like Hoopa-U and M-Garchomp.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 218-260 (90.4 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 356-422 (98.6 - 116.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 314-372 (105.7 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 222-262 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 272-324 (90.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 160-189 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 169-199 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 126-148 (45.3 - 53.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 180-213 (69.4 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 126-148 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 160-189 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


This and the fact that Azumarill only has 5 defensive counters to the Choice Band set. M-Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Amoonguss, and M-Slowbro. All of which are not very common AND Tentacruel does not reliable recovery, Amoonguss is beaten by Knock off, and Ferrothorn is beaten with Superpower. The rest of the counters to Azumarill are also either are worn down very easily like Rotom-W, or are offensive checks and are not good switch-ins and generally are also not seen on defensive and stall teams. Yes Azumarill's slow speed can be a pretty big issue, especially when there is faster pokemon that resists Aqua Jet like Celebi, but who cares. When this thing it 2HKOing most the tier anyway, (which Celebi, Mew, and Manaphy do not take Play Roughs) it doesn't matter that Azumarill has a few switch-ins. When a pokemon can put such huge holes in the other team to the point where all you have to do is just setup a Dragon Dance or SD to clean the rest of the game, it does not matter that this has a few switch-ins, as most of Azumarill's switch-ins will be worn down to the point where another pokemon can clean the rest of the game. Not mention Azumarill is in no way outclassed by Hoopa-U, as Azumarill can actually put in work against offense. In my opinion, Azumarill needs to rise to S. This pokemon is incredibly good right now in the metagame I see no reason why it shouldn't be S, especially if Hoopa gets banned and there is a new need for wallbreakers. EDIT: also this thing is amazing in TR, even though TR isn't really viable right now
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Hello everyone, I would like to bring up some arguments about a pokemon that should rise.

First off
Azumarill should move to S. This pokemon is amazing in the current meta right now. With a great offensive and defensive typing that few OU pokemon resist, this pokemon is truly metagame defining. Azumarill 2HKOs a very large majority of the tier. It is an stellar wallbreaker and unlike most wallbreakers it is not bad against offense at all. Azumarill has great defensive stats which lets take a hit or 2 before dying, because of this it is basically guaranteed a kill vs offense as most pokemon struggle to even take one hit from this 150 base attack monster. Combine this with Aqua Jet, which OHKOs M-Diancie, Offensive Excadrill, Talonflame, Alakazam, M-Aerodactyl and 2HKOs Thundurus, Weavile, M-Gallade, Gengar, Tornadus, and M-Lopunny. This thing is great against offense unlike a lot wallbreakers like Hoopa-U and M-Garchomp.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 218-260 (90.4 - 107.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 356-422 (98.6 - 116.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Talonflame: 314-372 (105.7 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Alakazam: 222-262 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 272-324 (90.3 - 107.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 160-189 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Weavile: 169-199 (60.1 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gallade: 126-148 (45.3 - 53.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 180-213 (69.4 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 126-148 (46.4 - 54.6%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 160-189 (53.5 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


This and the fact that Azumarill only has 5 defensive counters to the Choice Band set. M-Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Tentacruel, Amoonguss, and M-Slowbro. All of which are not very common AND Tentacruel does not reliable recovery, Amoonguss is beaten by Knock off, and Ferrothorn is beaten with Superpower. The rest of the counters to Azumarill are also either are worn down very easily like Rotom-W, or are offensive checks and are not good switch-ins and generally are also not seen on defensive and stall teams. Yes Azumarill's slow speed can be a pretty big issue, especially when there is faster pokemon that resists Aqua Jet like Celebi, but who cares. When this thing it 2HKOing most the tier anyway, (which Celebi, Mew, and Manaphy do not take Play Roughs) it doesn't matter that Azumarill has a few switch-ins. When a pokemon can put such huge holes in the other team to the point where all you have to do is just setup a Dragon Dance or SD to clean the rest of the game, it does not matter that this has a few switch-ins, as most of Azumarill's switch-ins will be worn down to the point where another pokemon can clean the rest of the game. Not mention Azumarill is in no way outclassed by Hoopa-U, as Azumarill can actually put in work against offense. In my opinion, Azumarill needs to rise to S. This pokemon is incredibly good right now in the metagame I see no reason why it shouldn't be S, especially if Hoopa gets banned and there is a new need for wallbreakers. EDIT: also this thing is amazing in TR, even though TR isn't really viable right now
I'm not quite sure how i feel about a rise to s honestly. its important to consider that azu is overly reliant on priority due to its terrible speed, and its bulk is decent but not amazing considering that azu's poor speed puts it in situations where it is forced to take a hit before attacking. Unlike azu, hoopa has NO switchins. no viable mons avoid the 2hko. Hoopa can also viably run a choice scarf unlike azu to circumvent its less than stellar speed, and even non scarf sets are still decent against most offense. I wouldnt say that hoopa outclasses azu because they have different roles. The idea that azu should rise because hoopa might go is ridiculous to me, and ou is not desperate for wallbreakers at all right now. I agree azu is a tiny notch above some other A+ mons, and i do feel that it puts in work every game i play with it, but i think S rank is pushing it too far.
 
I'm not quite sure how i feel about a rise to s honestly. its important to consider that azu is overly reliant on priority due to its terrible speed, and its bulk is decent but not amazing considering that azu's poor speed puts it in situations where it is forced to take a hit before attacking. Unlike azu, hoopa has NO switchins. no viable mons avoid the 2hko. Hoopa can also viably run a choice scarf unlike azu to circumvent its less than stellar speed, and even non scarf sets are still decent against most offense. I wouldnt say that hoopa outclasses azu because they have different roles. The idea that azu should rise because hoopa might go is ridiculous to me, and ou is not desperate for wallbreakers at all right now. I agree azu is a tiny notch above some other A+ mons, and i do feel that it puts in work every game i play with it, but i think S rank is pushing it too far.
I am not trying to say that Azumarill is better than Hoopa-U or even better then any of the S rank pokemon. What I am trying to say is that Azumarill is like Hoopa in many, many ways. I probably made too many good points about Azu's Aqua Jet, but all I am trying to say is that unlike Hoopa-U, Azumarill is not dead weight against offense. Yeah sure Hoopa-U has Choice Scarf, however Hoopa's choice scarf set is not a great at wallbreaking because of the fact that Hoopa-U doesn't get the boosted power from Choice Specs. Not to mention the fact that slower uninvested pokemon like Clefable, Slowbro, Sableye and Tyranitar are outsped by Azumarill, which are generally the pokemon you use Azumarill to break. I can see the argument for the fact that Azumarill has switch-ins and is also over reliant on priority, but there are so many overwhelming positives about Azumarill that cannot be ignored. For instance, most of the pokemon that Azumarill has to take a hit from before attacking generally are either OHKO'd by Play Rough/Waterfall or OHKO'd/2HKO'd by Aqua Jet. Garchomp is a great example of this, you have to take an earthquake, to OHKO him with Play Rough and then you have to take Rough Skin + Rocky Helment damage, however you completely destroy Garchomp with Play Rough meaning that still come out on top. I mean most situations Azumarill comes out on top. Again faster threats are usually KO'd by Aqua Jet and are not good switch-ins and are just "checks", slower mons like Slowbro and M-Sableye, Azu completely out speeds, negating the speed issue, and defensive pokemon like Garchomp or Landorus-T that outspeed Azumarill, cannot OHKO Azu, while Azu can OHKO them back. All I am saying is that Azumarill is like a less powerful version of Hoopa-U that does better against offense. Considering the fact that Azumarill puts in work in almost any matchup (bar venu, mega-bro), I do not know why this is not S rank. The argument of "Oh it's not fast enough" is ignoring the fact that faster threats are 2HKO'd by Aqua Jet and ignoring the fact that most defensive faster threats are either OHKO'd or KO'd with a tiny bit of prior damage (most 600 bst mons like Celebi take 80). Also the argument that "Oh it's walled by Venusaur and Slowbro" unlike Hoopa-U who has no switch-ins is ignoring the fact that Azumarill is trading a few matchups in stall for a lot more pressure then Hoopa against offense. Azumarill should be in S imo.
 
I don't really think there have been any massive meta shifts that really favour Azumarill enough to push it up. At the very least, things that are valuable about it now (strong priority, generally hard hitting, reasonably bulky for switch-ins and enough coverage to cope in a bloated metagame without resorting to weaker moves) are the same thing that have always made it a top A+ threat. Right now, if anything the increase of Rotom-W and other volt-turners associated with the rise of Specs Hoopa-U actually makes it harder to find opportunities to successfully use Azumarill as it's only getting in on a sac or good predicted free switch, so its only at it's best when it's cleaning with Aqua Jet, otherwise it's just too easy to hit it hard with a Volt Switch or get a WoW on it; at the very least, volt switchers and Hoopa-U forcing it out will just wear it down with hazards and give them free hits.

Thats not to say Azumarill's easy to play around, and it doesn't really warrant moving down per se, but it's definitely not in a position to move up either imo. It's only really as good as it's ever been in A+. Like sure it's defensive counters are a bit less common nowadays and it has limited ways around some of them but it's really easily pressured offensively right now
 
ethanlol I'll permit it this time because you have a legitimate question but do not post one liners in this thread. Just add some more content next time. Also for reference my computer screen is big so yes your post fits on one line lol, just more content for posts is what we ask for

Haxorus is unranked because it's basically outclassed in all roles. I mean we all know its DD set stinks because it can't take hits to save its life so you're better off with basically any other DDer. So the niche is the whole SD + Mold Breaker but this isn't terribly applicable most of the time. Against full stall its either gonna be walled by Skarmory or Clefable, since SD + Taunt + DClaw/Outrage only leaves room for EQ or Superpower, not both. Granted I guess you can Taunt Skarm but you're still not winning that battle. And if you forgo Taunt then what's the point of even using Haxorus? Against offense and balance you're just way better off with other breakers

Basically there are a TON of crazy good wallbreakers out there and there's basically no reason to use Haxorus over any of them
Haxorus doesn't need Taunt. You can just run Mold Breaker SD + Outrage + Superpower + Poison Jab and go wild. It has the ability to OHKO Clefable, Skarmory and Mega Sableye without really losing momentum, something no other Pokemon can do (apart from like Hoopa-U).

Rank Hax back pls
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top