Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

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It's good to remember Mega Latias forces 50/50 between Crunch/Pursuit with tyranitar since it can take Pursuits and paralyze/reflect type it

252 Atk Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Mega Latias: 98-116 (26.9 - 31.9%) -- 48.8% chance to 3HKO after sandstorm damage

also it can take most u-turns of the tier confortably and recover or hit back/spam twave/reflect type

0 Atk Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Mega Latias: 74-88 (20.3 - 24.2%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
76 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T U-turn vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Mega Latias: 101-122 (27.8 - 33.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Mega Latias: 122-144 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Jirachi U-turn vs. 248 HP / 84+ Def Mega Latias: 92-110 (25.3 - 30.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Even CB Scizor cant OHKO it with U-Turn and it can take knock offs a bit confortably since it dont get the extra power on megas. Also, Mega Latias is a very good glue to fill weaknesses since it have 7 very common resistances. Mega Latias deserves a high rank with all the utility it provides, lol

it twave/reflect type checks a lot of shit and cm set is like any other cm mon that needs its checks removed to work.
 

zbr

less than 99% acc = never hit
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
hmm. so since im bored, i decided to have a little fun here with some vr post. (and also laugh and some rly cute posts posted here.)

[up to A]
im not sure if anyone else has experienced this but this purple beast is a haxing god. with boltbeam it not only manages to cover a lot of things that like to switch in on it (eg torn-t, lando-t, glis, bulky waters..) it also has a 100% chance to freeze/para mons that think they can tank a hit (i swear this thing paralyzed/froze more mons on my team than jirachi ever flinched my teams). accompany that with the fact that it has access to twave and is pretty much taking nothing from knock off, it becomes an interesting mon as it compounds the role of not only being a ground immune psychic type but also one that fears less from dark spam which is an essential point to note here because of how much dark spam is flooding the meta (with the exception of hoopa-unbanned who destroys the meta as it is now). with access to an incredibly large bulk that allows it to sponge hits and set up with ease, as well as having moves like refresh / reflect type / twave and other support moves that allows it to support the team type that it is used on, makes it a rly formidable threat in the current meta. i think that the main selling point for using mega over regular is that it has a lot of added bulk and utility that regular is unable to provide due to prominence of dark spam and despite taking away the mega slot of a team , the team does not lose out on a lot of versatility as mlati can run a plethora of moves combinations that make it deadly. from the standard boltbeam utility to refresh cm stored power offensive mlati, they are all sets that add on to the versatility of a mon and is something that reg latias is no longer able to provided as effectively as before.

[down to hell]
fuck this shit. just ban it. why are we even arguing whether this should go to s or not? specs and band are both capable of blowing teams up in a heartbeat and scarf sets just acts as such an amazingly capable late game cleaner due to the lack of contact from hyperspace fury / dark pulse. its sheer power is so insane that all you have to do is just double switch a bit here and there, show a bit of dominance, turnturnvoltvoltturn here and there and KABLAM! your opponent has lost one or two mons just from this thing clicking it's stab. magic room also enables it to fuck up a lot of shit on stall (what was originally a 3hko on chans becomes a 2hko because it loses eviolite and the story goes on...). therefore, instead of voting whether this mon should move to s rank, we should just move it down to pokehell and just keep it fucking there.

i don't rly have much experience with the others when it comes to using them so maybe i'll come up with another post after i've tested the others out.

e: i didn't intend to start a discussion about it's suspect. i just wanted to say that there should be zero hesitation when it comes to moving this monster up to s rank. just so no one misunderstands
 
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Mega Alakazam sucks imo



NO. I would go into detail about this, but I did that in my lat post, and we all know how THAT turned out. So, I'll try to limit it; I don't know how well I'll do though...
Mega Latias sucks. Sure it has great bulk, I mean 80/120/150 defenses are definitely nothing to scoff at, however, it has the Dragon/Psychic typing. Which is BAD. It is hit super effectively by Dark, Ghost, Bug, Dragon, Ice and Fairy. Not to mention its crippling Pursuit weakness. And its weakness to U-turn. Its hit for a lot of damage by almost everything common, not to mention Knock Off spam is everywhere nowadays. So, its great bulk is hindered by its weakness to almost everything common and a loss of Leftovers. Leftovers is BIG when talking about defensive mons, as that bonus healing REALLY helps its walling capabilities. Defensive Megas disappoint me, as Leftovers is ESSENTIAL for survivability. Also, before you say it, I know Latias has Recover, and I know it has base 110 Speed. But there are still things that outspeed it, such an example is offensive Starmie, who Ice Beams Mega Latias to death and back. And if you say Latias can PP stall with Recover, If you get frozen, its over for Mega Latias, no matter the set. Reflect Type is easily countered/checked by coverage. Its ability to set up on the majority of the tier? Latios OKHOes with Draco Meteor, Ferrothorn walls it to hell and back, Starmie Ice Beam spams, stall teams PP stall it, not to mention offensive Mega Latias, even coming off of base 140 Special Attack, is still worse than Latios with Life Orb or Specs, or Gengar with Life Orb or Specs, or basically any special sweeper that can hold an item.
Now, there was a time was Mega Latias was rumored to be Dragon/Fairy with the Ability Multiscale, that had 80/110/180 defenses and 140 Speed. That's the Mega Latias I would use. So in a nutshell, Mega Latias = B
it sucks don't use it
Mega-Latias is not prone to Pursuit trapping at all. Max defense and HP (the set I use) with some speed to outspeed things like Bisharp and Breloom takes around 25% from scarf tar's pursuit. Bolt-Beam coverage is amazing and it can function as a good late game win condition. It is really good in this meta where Tornadus-T and Keldeo are prevalent as it walls both of those. The thing is when Latios is given a free switchin things like Gengar and M-Gardevoir are not able to kill it their. Latios is more powerful immediately but it can't take hits like M-Latias can. Latios is countered by dark types where M-Latias can tank hits and Recover up. It is able to tank hits that its nonmega form wouldn't. Mega-Latias to A
 
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 318-375 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

It's still 2HKO'd.
Just want to inform you.
I already wrote a post on why Hoopa-U should move to S and yes I know every single set that Hoopa-U has can break through Chansey. The calcs should still use the right spread. When you see 252 HP Hoopa-U in a calc, something ain't right.

Mega Alakazam sucks imo
I'm going to kindly ask that you please check your facts first. No, Mega Alakazam doesn't suck. This Pokemon is A+ on the viability rankings for a reason largely due to that gigantic speed stat and good power, which allows it to revenge kill and clean. It's one of the few Pokemon that can revenge kill Sand Rush Excadrill, which is a pretty potent feat in the current meta. Having access to substitute, encore, and focus blast means that it isn't all that easy to pursuit trap.

NO. I would go into detail about this, but I did that in my lat post, and we all know how THAT turned out. So, I'll try to limit it; I don't know how well I'll do though...
Mega Latias sucks. Sure it has great bulk, I mean 80/120/150 defenses are definitely nothing to scoff at, however, it has the Dragon/Psychic typing. Which is BAD. It is hit super effectively by Dark, Ghost, Bug, Dragon, Ice and Fairy. Not to mention its crippling Pursuit weakness. And its weakness to U-turn. Its hit for a lot of damage by almost everything common, not to mention Knock Off spam is everywhere nowadays. So, its great bulk is hindered by its weakness to almost everything common and a loss of Leftovers. Leftovers is BIG when talking about defensive mons, as that bonus healing REALLY helps its walling capabilities. Defensive Megas disappoint me, as Leftovers is ESSENTIAL for survivability. Also, before you say it, I know Latias has Recover, and I know it has base 110 Speed. But there are still things that outspeed it, such an example is offensive Starmie, who Ice Beams Mega Latias to death and back. And if you say Latias can PP stall with Recover, If you get frozen, its over for Mega Latias, no matter the set. Reflect Type is easily countered/checked by coverage. Its ability to set up on the majority of the tier? Latios OKHOes with Draco Meteor, Ferrothorn walls it to hell and back, Starmie Ice Beam spams, stall teams PP stall it, not to mention offensive Mega Latias, even coming off of base 140 Special Attack, is still worse than Latios with Life Orb or Specs, or Gengar with Life Orb or Specs, or basically any special sweeper that can hold an item.
Now, there was a time was Mega Latias was rumored to be Dragon/Fairy with the Ability Multiscale, that had 80/110/180 defenses and 140 Speed. That's the Mega Latias I would use. So in a nutshell, Mega Latias = B
it sucks don't use it
Ok. First off, Mega Latias has gotten better, not worse. It's in no way shape or form B. That's insane. You could argue all day and highlight every single Pokemon that Mega Latias gets defeated by. But in the end, that's a biased way to judge a Pokemon. It can't take hits from a Gengar or Latios? Well obviously not, since when was it supposed to? Instead of highlighting every single weakness of a Pokemon, it is better to instead think about how valuable its traits are in the current meta.

For example, Keldeo has recently become S-rank. And that means that Latias's ability to check it with its typing is extremely valuable for many teams. Aside from that, it can check common threats like Mega Charizard-Y, Breloom (after spore is used up) and Electric types which again, many teams appreciate the number of things it can check in one teamslot. With BoltBeam coverage, it can deal with Garchomp, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Keldeo, Charizard-Y, Manaphy, Thundurus, and much more than I can think of on the top of my head. It has Thunder Wave to cripple stuff like Charizard X and its switch-ins and it has Reflect Type to mitigate its weakness to Pursuit Trapping. Yes, Mega Latias does wish it had Leftovers recovery, but many Pokemon like Tankchomp and Mega Sableye work just fine without it.

I don't particularly care whether or not Mega Latias moves up. But when considering the immense utility that Mega Latias has, it should most likely move up, not down. It's a valuable Mega that puts in enough work for what it's worth.
 
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Mega Alakazam sucks imo
Your opinion on a Pokemon doesn't determine its rank. I could say Keldeo is a bad mon but it's staying in S for the time being anyway.

NO. I would go into detail about this, but I did that in my lat post, and we all know how THAT turned out. So, I'll try to limit it; I don't know how well I'll do though...
Mega Latias sucks. Sure it has great bulk, I mean 80/120/150 defenses are definitely nothing to scoff at, however, it has the Dragon/Psychic typing. Which is BAD. It is hit super effectively by Dark, Ghost, Bug, Dragon, Ice and Fairy. Not to mention its crippling Pursuit weakness. And its weakness to U-turn. Its hit for a lot of damage by almost everything common, not to mention Knock Off spam is everywhere nowadays. So, its great bulk is hindered by its weakness to almost everything common and a loss of Leftovers. Leftovers is BIG when talking about defensive mons, as that bonus healing REALLY helps its walling capabilities. Defensive Megas disappoint me, as Leftovers is ESSENTIAL for survivability. Also, before you say it, I know Latias has Recover, and I know it has base 110 Speed. But there are still things that outspeed it, such an example is offensive Starmie, who Ice Beams Mega Latias to death and back. And if you say Latias can PP stall with Recover, If you get frozen, its over for Mega Latias, no matter the set. Reflect Type is easily countered/checked by coverage. Its ability to set up on the majority of the tier? Latios OKHOes with Draco Meteor, Ferrothorn walls it to hell and back, Starmie Ice Beam spams, stall teams PP stall it, not to mention offensive Mega Latias, even coming off of base 140 Special Attack, is still worse than Latios with Life Orb or Specs, or Gengar with Life Orb or Specs, or basically any special sweeper that can hold an item.
Now, there was a time was Mega Latias was rumored to be Dragon/Fairy with the Ability Multiscale, that had 80/110/180 defenses and 140 Speed. That's the Mega Latias I would use. So in a nutshell, Mega Latias = B
it sucks don't use it
You're disgustingly underestimating Mega Latias's potential. Not a lot of Pokemon are capable of switching in on both Specs Keldeo and Mega Charizard Y, two of some of the hardest-hitting Pokemon in the entire metagame, and remain relatively unscathed. It has the bulk to tank just about any one hit not coming from a Specs Hoopa-U or Mega Gardevoir and cripple it with Thunder Wave, and let me tell you, it can tank a ton of hits despite its typing. In regards to its U-Turn weakness, the only Pokemon it has to fear a U-Turn from are (Mega) Scizor and Mega Beedrill. Non-STAB U-Turns don't do a lot to Mega Latias. Scarf Lando's U-Turn doesn't even 2HKO the standard spread. Being a Mega, Knock Off does less to Latias and is reduced to being a 65 base power attack, which is pathetically weak if it doesn't account for STAB damage.

Starmie's Ice Beam doesn't even 2HKO Mega Latias, so idk where you got the idea that "it gets Ice Beamed to death and back":

252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 151-179 (41.5 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Whereas Mega Latias would actually win the 1v1:

0 SpA Mega Latias Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 198-234 (75.5 - 89.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also, Chansey seems to be doing just fine on Stall teams without Leftovers, while Mega Venusaur is a fantastic defensive Pokemon and it's limited to its mega stone. While you're right that Leftovers is a pretty important item, it's not the end of the world if you don't have one. Defensive Garchomp and some defensive Landorus-T carry Rocky Helmet, for instance, and these two don't even have recovery options. Mega Latias has that luxury with Recover/Roost backed up by impressive bulk and an amazing speed tier for a defensive Pokemon, letting it creep on the likes of max speed Garchomp and the base 100 tier like Manaphy and Mega Charizard Y. Move Mega Latias to A.
 

WhiteQueen

the queen bee
is a Tiering Contributorwon the 11th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Past SPL Champion
Can my obese girlfriend, Chansey, move to A already? She's so good at what she does, walling and crippling things, that no other Pokemon can compare. With amazing support moves like Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock, Wish, Heal Bell, and HEALING WISH, you can slap Chansey onto every kind of teams and she will still work effectively. Yes, even offensive teams. A Pokemon as supportive and unbreakable as Chansey deserves a higher ranking on this list.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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In all seriousness I think A rank is pushing it for Chansey. It should rise from B, but it's not as good as A rank mons like Tyranitar or constraining on team building as stuff like Mega Gardevoir. The support is good and it does wall a lot of things but it's also extremely susceptible to common stuff like Knock Off, Taunt and strong physical attackers.

I can't really see it higher than A- myself, the passivity isn't overblown and its pretty simple to wear down with hazards, Volt Switch or stallbreakers. Arguments can be made that a lot of its teammates cover these weaknesses which is true but just goes to show it needs a decent amount of team support
 

p2

Banned deucer.

think its about time terrakion goes back up to a- honestly.

band terrakion is pretty great right now because a bunch of teams don't prepare for it and rely on stuff like lando-t or slowbro as their rock "resist", so yeah terrakion is overloading these kind of teams extremely quickly because there's almost nothing that actually likes taking banded cc and stone edges, and anything that does just gets broken by coverage moves or eventually overwhelmed. it's also seeing decent usage in spl and its winrate is decent too, just solidifying the evidence that it's became better in the meta despite all this priority it hates and faster shit running around. it's also a nice deterrence to hoopa spamming dark pulse because +1 band terrakion is pretty much impossible to switch into and if you're running a bulkier team, you're done. though im not very keen on it, scarf helps force faster stuff like lop or zam out, and is pretty annoying for a bunch of teams to face too especially with toxic which just wears down slowbro and lando so easily. idrc about its sd set because it struggles to set up, its frail and easily revenge killed, and not having the same immediate power as band is a total killer meaning you need to wear land-t down to actually break through it, and terrakion isn't exactly one of those mons that are gonna stick around until the lategame. along with hippo and mega alt becoming less used, terrak is in a pretty nice place right now.

yeah please move to a- its so good
 
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WhiteQueen

the queen bee
is a Tiering Contributorwon the 11th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Past SPL Champion
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In all seriousness I think A rank is pushing it for Chansey. It should rise from B, but it's not as good as A rank mons like Tyranitar or constraining on team building as stuff like Mega Gardevoir. The support is good and it does wall a lot of things but it's also extremely susceptible to common stuff like Knock Off, Taunt and strong physical attackers.

I can't really see it higher than A- myself, the passivity isn't overblown and its pretty simple to wear down with hazards, Volt Switch or stallbreakers. Arguments can be made that a lot of its teammates cover these weaknesses which is true but just goes to show it needs a decent amount of team support
Do not use Chansey unless you have a Pokemon that can stop Volt Switch, i.e. Hippowdon, Quagsire, Excadrill, etc. Like seriously. Chansey is a sweetheart and she doesn't appreciate all those switching mind games. As you implied, she lacks passive recovery and doesn't enjoy those chip damages. Her job is to switch into something like Clefable to set up SR or heal her teammates then run. Or switching into Char-Y, Kyurem, take a hit, click Thunder Wave then run. When used properly, she will almost always reward her user.
 

think its about time terrakion goes back up to a- honestly.

band terrakion is pretty great right now because a bunch of teams don't prepare for it and rely on stuff like lando-t or slowbro as their rock "resist", so yeah terrakion is overloading these kind of teams extremely quickly because there's almost nothing that actually likes taking banded cc and stone edges, and anything that does just gets broken by coverage moves or eventually overwhelmed. it's also seeing decent usage in spl and its winrate is decent too, just solidifying the evidence that it's became better in the meta despite all this priority it hates and faster shit running around. it's also a nice deterrence to hoopa spamming dark pulse because +1 band terrakion is pretty much impossible to switch into and if you're running a bulkier team, you're done. though im not very keen on it, scarf helps force faster stuff like lop or zam out, and is pretty annoying for a bunch of teams to face too especially with toxic which just wears down slowbro and lando so easily. idrc about its sd set because it struggles to set up, its frail and easily revenge killed, and not having the same immediate power as band is a total killing meaning you need to wear land-t down to actually break through it, and terrakion isn't exactly one of those mons that are gonna stick around until the lategame. along with hippo and mega alt becoming less used, terrak is in a pretty nice place right now.

yeah please move to a- its so good
I've also lately been playing with Terrakion, using a Sash SD/SR lead set. It's by no means the best thing in the world as it's issue with common priority and general frailty are still there, but the set up opportunities issue is alleviated in the suicide lead role. Like most sash'd suicide leads, it can be guaranteed to set up rocks against most things except M-Loppuny, faster Taunters or Magic Bouncers, and thats no news; what it has going for it as a lead is that it can really punish bad counter plays and easily beat the faster Taunters in the lead slot - if your opponent leads wrong, it's easy to punish something on the switch or even hit them on the Taunt, while keeping the sash intact, much more than with other suicide leads like Azelf or more standard offensive rockers like Chomp. In that regard, it's biggest selling point is that as a lead it's offensive presence lets it beat faster Taunters like Talonflame, Torn-T, Thundurus, Gengar and set up on certain variants of Landoge, especially if they just set up their own rocks (which is all part of punishing uneducated plays).

The reason that the Sash SD+SR set struggles is that it's often put in 50:50s between getting rocks up and removing it's check, which makes it struggle as a SR setter, but the ability to set up in the face of opposing checks (it's not even hard to get 2 SD's up in front of M-Sableye, alleviating the WoW issue slightly, and also potentially forcing it out to get rocks up) and 1HKO almost every relevant fast Taunter in the tier with it's STAB moves means that it can put HO in a really strong position early on in the game. In that role, it could feasibly even skip out on SR and take X-Scissor to hit Celebi or Iron Head as a more reliable option against Clefable, M-Garde and M-Diancie.

I'm indifferent on whether it warrants moving up, having only really used this set, but in any case I thought it was worth adding some thoughts on another set. He's definitely no higher than A-, but I could see him in there.
 

AM

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The only reason Terrakion should be going up to A- is for the Band set. It's the effective set in the meta right now based on what p2 was stating along with teams having a tendency using Lando-T as the hypothetical rock resist, which is obviously in practice not a bright idea. The other sets it has access to are either mediocre or not really pushing it to the level of relevancy that is gained in the past weeks or so.
 

WECAMEASROMANS

Banned deucer.
I don't think Weavile should drop. With the soaring popularity of Landorus-t and offensive builds in general which rely on Landorus-t as their catch all physical tank, Weavile gets a free kill easily vs those types of teams. Sure, some teams have some "switch ins" on paper such as Azumarill, Keldeo, and Clefable, but if you've ever played a game against it or even watched a replay you know those things aren't enough to last in the long run. They definitely also don't want their items knocked off, especially in the case of Clefable, where it losing its leftovers is pretty essential to its success. I'd even go for as to say that any team not using a Mega Scizor is somewhat Weavile weak. The popularity of psychics in the metagame is great for it. Weavile also has a new role now as a pursuiter which can trap and kill any Hoopa-U locked to a resisted/immune attack which is definitely a plus on most teams. It's also great to see people experimenting with Choice Band on it, as that hits really hard (2HKOes Clefable ffs) and has the added benefit of not chipping your health down to the point where a bisharp sucker punch can kill you after SR or something. It's definitely a massive force still to be reckoned with and should stay A+ imo.

I don't think Landorus-t should raise to S rank either. This is a similar boat to the scenario with Garchomp a couple of months back when it was by far the #1 most used Pokemon and people were nominating that for S rank too but it never went through. Usage does not correlate with viability, even though that may be assumed at first since the three S rank Pokemon atm (Clefable, Keldeo, Tornadus-T) are all used frequently in high level play. The main reason why Landorus-T has kept consistent #1 use recently is because of its just so effortlessly easy to splash onto teams: it's a defensive ground with Intimidate who can set up SR and gain momentum, and is immune to ground, and can check a bunch of top tier threats such as Charizard-X and Lopunny. The thing that separates Landorus-t is that Landorus-T by itself is not that big of a threat. I don't think anyone here has looked at team preview and saw a Landorus-T and just thought, "man Landorus-T is going to be so hard to deal with, let's see how I'm going to manage to take it down". It's not like Keldeo which can slowly weaken your team apart and you have to systematically think what Pokemon you're forced to sac to it, or like Tornadus-T where you're constantly struggling to kill it while it just tanks and pivots into your attacks all day while chipping your health down little by little until you eventually give. When you're dealing with Clefable, not only do you have to deal with it walling a bunch of your Pokemon, you also have to think about how you can't give it free turns to fire off thunder waves and boost up to be virtually unkillable in the late game.

Landorus-T is very easy to fit onto teams, yet it's also so easy to take advantage of, and your opponent can just use your Landorus-T to put immense pressure on your team. It's insanely easy to just double switch from Excadrill to bait a Landorus-T switch in into something like Manaphy, Kyurem-b, Keldeo, LO Starmie, Weavile, etc and then the Landorus-T user is at a huge advantage because these types of Pokemon naturally already have so few switch ins. It's also pretty easy to wear down, since it's constantly switching into SR continuously. Unlike other top tier pivots such as Rotom-W or Tornadus-T or U-Turn Mega Scizor, Landorus-T has no means of recovery, even natural recovery, so your opponent can just continuously weaken it until it dies. Some of the Pokemon Landorus-T typically switches into, such as Talonflame, Hippowdon, Charizard-X, Garchomp, can all just status your Landorus-T on the switch in with burn or poison and it'll just be severely crippled afterwards. Landorus-T is a very useful and splashable Pokemon in the tier, but its only used that much for its ability to blanket check a bunch of Pokemon instead of being the big threat itself, while also being easy to wear down since it has no recovery or means to regenerate HP making it very prone to status, and just falls to countless dangerous threats in the metagame.

Hoopa-U should raise back to S rank. What else is there to talk about besides the deadly Choice Band set and the newly discovered and just as devastating Choice Specs set? These two sets are arguably the best sets for it to run atm as they both hit incredibly hard, to the point where even your "resists" take half their health from just one hit and it's much harder to wear down Hoopa-U since it's not taking LO damage anymore. Whats more, is that Hoopa-U has the offensive typing, and both the physical and special movepools to abuse these sets. There's quite literally, nothing in the game that can avoid a OHKO/2HKO from this thing, which isn't nearly the case for all the other powerful hard hitters in the tier such as Kyurem-b, Latios, Keldeo, Azumarill, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Mega Gardevoir, etc. That alone should make it S-rank. Then you have to realize the ease in how it pairs so well with many common pivots such as Rotom-W/Tornadus-T so its not even relatively hard to get it in the battle for free as opposed to something like Weavile. It's also not nearly as deadweight as offense as many people like to exaggerate, since it just checks a bunch of things naturally by virtue of its special defense and power, such as Starmie, Manaphy, Latias, all the electrics, etc.

Quite literally the only thing preventing Hoopa-U from being outright "broken" is the fact that Pursuit exists and that the premier Pursuit users of that tier naturally resist/are immune to its STABs and so they can trap and kill you. But even then, NONE of the Pursuiters can switch in safely on it, so you either have to A) sac something and let it die first, or B) be a prediction god and go to Tyranitar on the Banded HSF or Bisharp on the Specs Psyshock which can easily be telegraphed.


Also, no, Chansey shouldn't rise. It's just so immensely easy to pressure with powerful shit like Bisharp/CB Tyranitar/Hoopa-U, so easy to wear down with double switches and pivots like Rotom-W which can burn it and then volt out forcing you to take hazard damage for nothing, and so easy to use as free set up bait for your ferro/skarm/SD Garchomp or whatever. Haven't you realized by now that all the top defensive Pokemon in the metagame right now have some way to alleviate their passiveness? Look at Slowbro which has scald/twave/regenerator/calm mind, amoongus which has natural healing so it can't be worn down and can switch into most of the waters in the tier and has spore/hp fire/foul play/clear smog, even Mega Latias which doesn't have access to leftovers recovery has Thunder Wave, Calm Mind, and an absurd SpAtk stat and movepool to not be completely shit while still walling a huge portion of the metagame. The only even somewhat decent option for Chansey to deal with this is just Thunder Wave but that's definitely not enough when you consider how many Pokemon are able to pressure Chansey and use it to set up freely.
 
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Sobi

Banned deucer.
Okay, so this is my first time posting here, so apologies in advance if I do anything wrong.

- Okay, so I honestly think that Starmie should not rise to A. This is because it is a very frail Pokemon, and in most match-ups, it fails to last long in the match, as there are many fast attackers in the metagame, such as Weavile and Mega Manectric that are able to take out Starmie before it gets a chance to actually make use of its movepool. However, Starmie does have its own pros. It's a fast Rapid Spinner, and has access to some pretty hard-hitting STAB moves, such as Hydro Pump, Scald, and Psychic, which, when paired with Life Orb, turn it into a monster. These make Starmie stand out from other Rapid Spinners in the metagame, such as Tentacruel, but it certainly does have its own drawbacks, such as its lacklustre bulk, and its ability to be easily taken advantage of, be it from paralysing faster variants with Thunder Wave, or setting up on more bulkier ones. Starmie just lacks the sufficient bulk, and usually struggles after it has used Rapid Spin, as this gives the opponent the chance to switch into something that Starmie will have a hard time handling. Here are some calcs that show commonly used Pokemon in the tier against Starmie, 1v1:

Alakazam v Starmie: 252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 268-317 (102.2 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Raikou v Starmie: 252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 462-546 (176.3 - 208.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Jirachi v Starmie: 160+ SpA Expert Belt Jirachi Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 230-271 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Gengar v Starmie: 252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 393-463 (150 - 176.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Celebi v Starmie: +2 0 SpA Celebi Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 372-438 (141.9 - 167.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO


If you think about it, most Life Orb attackers carry a range of coverage moves, and there will often be one move that will instantly take out, or severly dent Starmie, if it's running a slightly defensive set. Therefore, I think Starmie should stay with other rank A- Pokemon that have their own niches, but are often restrained due to notable weaknesses, most notably their typing and movepool.
 
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WhiteQueen

the queen bee
is a Tiering Contributorwon the 11th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Past SPL Champion
Also, no, Chansey shouldn't rise. It's just so immensely easy to pressure with powerful shit like Bisharp/CB Tyranitar/Hoopa-U, so easy to wear down with double switches and pivots like Rotom-W which can burn it and then volt out forcing you to take hazard damage for nothing, and so easy to use as free set up bait for your ferro/skarm/SD Garchomp or whatever. Haven't you realized by now that all the top defensive Pokemon in the metagame right now have some way to alleviate their passiveness? Look at Slowbro which has scald/twave/regenerator/calm mind, amoongus which has natural healing so it can't be worn down and can switch into most of the waters in the tier and has spore/hp fire/foul play/clear smog, even Mega Latias which doesn't have access to leftovers recovery has Thunder Wave, Calm Mind, and an absurd SpAtk stat and movepool to not be completely shit while still walling a huge portion of the metagame. The only even somewhat decent option for Chansey to deal with this is just Thunder Wave but that's definitely not enough when you consider how many Pokemon are able to pressure Chansey and use it to set up freely.
First of all, "so easy to wear down with double switches" isn't an argument. It's a double-edged sword; as easy as it to double switch, it's also similarly easy to stay in and click Soft-boiled. I already stated that it's a bad decision to use Chansey without having a Polemon to stop Volt Switch as a teammate. Second of all, Slowbro, Amoonguss, and Mega Latias can't set up Stealth Rock nor can they keep the entire team heathy. Third of all, those Pokemon can't switch into Mega Gardevoir, Kyurem-B, Hoopa-U (virtually nothing switches into it safely except maybe Mandibuzz), etc. Chansey can frequently switch into all of those threats safely without risking a OHKO. Yea Taunt is annoying, but you can always make the "easy double switch" to a check to negate it. Lastly, I agree that Chansey is passive. However, as easy for a Pokemon like Tank Chomp and Ferrothorn to set up on her, it's equally easy for her to use them to freely heal her teammate or set up SR of her own.

Chansey is a boss and should be A or at least A- at the lowest.
 
First of all, "so easy to wear down with double switches" isn't an argument. It's a double-edged sword; as easy as it to double switch, it's also similarly easy to stay in and click Soft-boiled. I already stated that it's a bad decision to use Chansey without having a Polemon to stop Volt Switch as a teammate. Second of all, Slowbro, Amoonguss, and Mega Latias can't set up Stealth Rock nor can they keep the entire team heathy. Third of all, those Pokemon can't switch into Mega Gardevoir, Kyurem-B, Hoopa-U (virtually nothing switches into it safely except maybe Mandibuzz), etc. Chansey can frequently switch into all of those threats safely without risking a OHKO. Yea Taunt is annoying, but you can always make the "easy double switch" to a check to negate it. Lastly, I agree that Chansey is passive. However, as easy for a Pokemon like Tank Chomp and Ferrothorn to set up on her, it's equally easy for her to use them to freely heal her teammate or set up SR of her own.

Chansey is a boss and should be A or at least A- at the lowest.
The thing about Chansey's passivity is that it's nigh-peerless. When people say "it's too passive" about most Pokemon with only weak damaging options, they mean "it only has a weak Brave Bird" or "it only has a weak Scald". No other Pokemon is shut down as thoroughly by Taunt as Chansey is. Even Amoonguss can Clear Smog when taunted, and Alomomola can use Scald or Knock Off.

Every other defensive pokemon that sees OU usage also has at least one decent attacking stat or a move that can mitigate a lack thereof, along with the ability to hit at least one other pokemon for super-effective damage. Chansey is completely reliant on Toxic or Seismic Toss to do reliable damage to anything because of both its typing and stats, and the three non-damaging moves it always has to run to be worthwhile as a wall or cleric.

Chansey provides immense support with wish and heal bell, its unrivaled ability to take damage from special attackers, and its status and hazard options, but it always needs to be supported by Pokemon that are also bulky and passive, because of just how much of a giant liability it is against almost all stallbreakers and physical boosting attackers. As such, it really only fits on full stall, and nothing else that's so incredibly playstyle-specific on a such a niche playstyle is in any rank higher than B+, as far as I can tell.
 
First of all, "so easy to wear down with double switches" isn't an argument. It's a double-edged sword; as easy as it to double switch, it's also similarly easy to stay in and click Soft-boiled. I already stated that it's a bad decision to use Chansey without having a Polemon to stop Volt Switch as a teammate. Second of all, Slowbro, Amoonguss, and Mega Latias can't set up Stealth Rock nor can they keep the entire team heathy. Third of all, those Pokemon can't switch into Mega Gardevoir, Kyurem-B, Hoopa-U (virtually nothing switches into it safely except maybe Mandibuzz), etc. Chansey can frequently switch into all of those threats safely without risking a OHKO. Yea Taunt is annoying, but you can always make the "easy double switch" to a check to negate it. Lastly, I agree that Chansey is passive. However, as easy for a Pokemon like Tank Chomp and Ferrothorn to set up on her, it's equally easy for her to use them to freely heal her teammate or set up SR of her own.

Chansey is a boss and should be A or at least A- at the lowest.
While I do agree with you that Chansey should be way higher ranked than it currently is, I wouldn't use Kyube and Hoopa-U as guaranteed examples as to what Chansey is capable of coming in on. While yes, she can switch in on any of their specials hits (minus Hoopa-U's Specs Psyshock after rocks) they both are capable of running physical sets, moreso on Hoopa-U who is known to run Banded/LO Hyperspace Fury and Drain Punch. Outrage Kyube also still exists although it's nowhere near as common.

That being said, again, I agree with your nomination for Chansey to be A- at the very least. It's been proven that it can put in work on teams outside of Stall.
 
Interesting discussion topics. Anywho,
A+ -> A
Strongly disagree

Weavile's STAB combination and coverage options allow it to pressure an immense amount of pokemon and has very few good switchins. While none of it's checks can come in safely, outside of Scizor, Keldeo and Skarmory, they still can give it some trouble, such as Scarf Jirachi, Scarf Excadrill, and Azumarill (Yes people, Poison Jab is still a thing, though not very common). The pressure it puts on Offensively oriented teams through it's sheer power and coverage deserves nothing less than A+ to me. It beats Garchomp, Lando-T, Hippowdon, Tornadus-T, Hoopa Unbound, Non-Scarf Jirachi, Mega Altaria, the Lati twins, Starmie, Slowbro, Tyranitar, Gengar, Celebi, and a few more I didn't mention. Not to mention it's potential as a trapper for Latis, Starmie, HUpa, and Gengar. Yes, it has hard checks and counters, some of which are common. But for every check and counter it has, it has two pokemon that it beats. That more than justifies an A+ rank.
A -> A-
Disagree

Oh how the mighty have fallen. Mega Altaria isn't nearly as strong as it was 8 months ago. No matter it's set, it will have hard counters and checks. Run Fire Blast on the DD set? Walled by Heatran. Run Earthquake? Walled by Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor. Run both? You miss out on Roost or Dragon Dance. Though this is a very glaring flaw, Mega Altaria still has life in it. The bulk that Mega Altaria offers is amazing, and is backed up immensely by it's outstanding typing, offering a great blanket check to a ton of Pokemon. Zard Y, Zard X, Keldeo, Breloom, Mega Manectric, Garchomp, Raikou, Tyranitar, and more. These are pokemon that the bulky Mega Altaria set (Better known as King DDD) can effectively set up on and/or beat. The typing and team support that Mega Altaria can bring in the form of Heal Bell and a great blanket-check mon justifies an A ranking in my eyes.
A -> A-
Disagree

While I myself am not a personal fan of using Mega Medicham, this thing is a monster. There's no other way to word it. The only things that can "Wall" Mega Medicham are Fat Psychics and Mega Sableye. In specific, Slowbro, Celebi, and Mega Sableye are commonly used as examples. Slowbro is beaten by Thunder Punch, Celebi is beaten by Ice Punch, and Mega Sableye is left as the single pokemon in the entire metagame to not be potentially beaten by it. It's speed tier is very respectable for a wallbreaker this strong, and it has access to priority in the forms of Fake Out and Bullet Punch. There's nothing else to say other than something that hits this hard with only one true guaranteed counter, does NOT deserve to be put on the same level as Hippowdon.
A- -> A
Strongly agree

Mega Latias' bulk and typing is absolutely astounding. It walls Breloom, Mega Zard Y, Keldeo, Heatran, Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Torn-T, Raikou, Rotom-W, Lando-T, Gliscor, Mega Lopunny, provides a good check to MMedicham lacking Ice Punch, and it doesn't even fear Knock Off as much as other pokemon weak to it due to it lacking an item to be knocked off. The CM Bolt Beam and Utility sets are both very useful sets, and everything in between can be run, such as a 3-Attacks roost set. And with it also walling two of the S tier pokemon (Torn-T and Keldeo), I really don't see a reason as to why it shouldn't rise to at least A Tier.
A- -> A
Agree

Starmie has quite a bit of splashability, a great amount of type coverage, access to a way to reliably remove hazards, and can punish switches hard with a Life Orb Analytic boost to a potential STAB Hydro Pump or Psy(shock/chic). The speed tier it resides in is nice for outspeeding pokemon like Garchomp, the Lati twins, Keldeo, Terrakion, and more. There's also a nice defensive set which provides longevity and a potential Scald burn, which is always nice. I don't have too much to say about this one, other than I believe it deserves a rise for those simple reasons.

A- -> B+
Neutral

Klefki is a nice Thunder Wave spammer and an effective Spikes staker, due to it's great ability in Prankster and very good typing. It also has access to Magnet Rise, making it a bitch to deal with if your reliable way of beating it is Excadrill or Lando-T. However, its effectiveness as a wall is hindered greatly by it's rather mediocre bulk stat-wise and inability to heal itself outside of Leftovers. It makes a decent check to some mons a few times during a game, and stacking spikes, but that's about it. I don't really feel like this change will matter if it does happen.
A- -> B+
Disagree

Gyarados is a nice bulky mon that can set up on pokemon like Scizor, Breloom, Keldeo, Hippowdon, Chesnaught, and blanket-check said mons as well as a lot of fighting types, steel types, and ground types. It also provides good utility with Thunder Wave, Dragon Tail, and Intimidate. Though to me, this is the one I disagree on the least.
B+ -> B
Disagree

Mamoswine is simply strong as fuck. It beats most common leads, with it's Offensive STAB typing being just as good as Weavile's. It also gets access to Freeze Dry and Stealth Rock, if you want it to lure in pokemon like Quagsire, Rotom-W, and more, as well as set up hazards on a forced switch if you lead with it against a pokemon like Garchomp or Lando-T. It is rather slow, and it's bulk is mediocre, but it's still a very solid choice in today's metagame. B+ suits it very nicely.
B -> B+
Agree

Reuniclus can beat most all Calm Mind users in CM wars with it's access to Psyshock. It also has outstanding abilities in Magic Guard and Regenerator, helping it's longevity immensely with Magic Guard ignoring all hazards and toxic damage, and Regenerator restoring a great chunk of health every time you switch. Though yes, it hates dark types and Skarmory like the plague, even with it's access to Focus Blast, it makes for a great CM user and fat mon that can carry you lategame. B+ would reflect this very well.
B- -> C+
Disagree

Empoleon is by no means an amazing pokemon, but it has a very nice niche. One set that people don't take into consideration is the Shuca Berry Anti-Lead set, with Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Flash Cannon / Grass Knot, and Defog / Stealth Rock. EVs: 212 HP / 252+ SpAtk / 44 Spe (Modest Nature). It baits Garchomp and Landorus T to either straight up attack it, which it'll survive, and then Ice Beam them and net a very useful KO. If they attempt to set up rocks, they'll simply lose their rocker and then Empoleon will be able to remove their hazards if it's running Defog. Outside of this, it has a very useful typing which can be used to give Talonflame, Jirachi, Gyarados, Psychic Types in general, Lati Twins, (Mega) Scizor lacking Superpower, and Excadrill if it's Shuca Berry is still in tact. This is by no means a bad pokemon, as it has a very useful niche and can launch extremely powerful Hydro Pumps and beat most all Stealth Rock leads. But it's just that, a niche. Honestly, with this set, I could argue that Empoleon could go from B- to B, but that's an argument for another time.

I'm VERY interested to see where this could go.
 
I'd like to make a case for Weavile staying in A+. I think when it comes to Weavile, most people are looking at the Ice Shard/Knock Off/Low Kick/Ice Punch-Crash set but Weavile has another set that is really good in the meta and that is the Swords Dance set. Swords Dance Weavile has a good chance to KO many pokemon that people switch in to sponge hits from it like Slowbro and Hippowdon and turns Weavile from a revenge killer to an outright sweeper.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-348832997
 
So I'll bring to the table Raikou and Entei.

Raikou to B+ ---> Disagree, stay in A-
Raikou is so good, I don't see why it should drop. I mean, even with that small movepool, it is so versatile. The AV with Volt Switch is cancer and beats nearly all the special attackers bar Kyurem-B and Keldeo. You will say that Lati@s beats you with Psyshock, but as most of the time they just spam Draco Meteor, you shouldn't have much problems with them in my experience. The Scarf outspeed the whole meta non-scarf and some slower Scarfers such as Lando-T with a Timid Nature and can act as a cleaner in late-game with Thunderbolt or as a RK with Volt Switch. The SubCM is the most underrated set, however with it you can beat Chansey 1vs1 which is simply amazing. Finally, there's the Choice Specs set, it's a great wallbreaker with good offensive pressure, but be careful about Ground-types. You can also run Zap Plate to buff Choice Specs while still doing solid damage. All these sets make Raikou a dangerous and unpredictable mon with lots of differents roles. Seriously, its only real con is a mediocre base 75 Defense, otherwise the electric doggy is very solid.



Entei to B- ---> Agree on rising
This time, we have a quite predictable mon, because Entei has only one set : the Choice Band. However, it's a great set because of two assets : Sacred Fire and Extreme Speed. Sacred Fire makes switching into Entei very difficult, because of 1 chance on 2 to burn the opponent, so it's a very bad idea to send out your Gliscor, your Azu or your Garchomp on Entei. Extreme Speed prevents Entei from being RKed by faster mons or other priority users such as Raikou and Talonflame, and the move is quite powerful. Finally, it has 2 coverage moves. The first Stone Edge, hits things that doesn't mind a burn and resists Fire, such as Latias, for solid damage, and the Fire types themselves that can't be burned. Bulldoze, although it's weak as hell, hits Heatran who otherwise stops you cold. Overall, an underrated mon that deserves to rise.
 
Weavile: A+ -> A (Disagree)
Weavile is still as dangerous as before. The only safe switch-in is Mega-Scizor, as EVERYTHING hates losing its held item, and more often than not, takes a decent amount of damage in the process even if it's a resisted hit (Azumarill and Keldeo take more than 30%!). Even if you have a Mega-Scizor on your team, STAB Pursuit is a thing, so you may not be switching out for free. The majority of its checks doesn't have realiable recovery, meaning that at one point, they won't be able to switch in at all. The best thing about Weavile, though, is that it puts your team in a great Speed tier, beeing outsped only by a few Megas and fast Scarf users; in other words, with Weavile you'll usually outspeed 4 out of 6 of the opposing mons at least.
Yes, Life Orb recoil and hazards won't let Weavile stay for long in battle, but Weavile isn't meant to stay for long to begin with. And since Weavile isn't actually switching into attacks or stomaching hits, frailty and a lack of useful resistances aren't something to be worried about. These listed downsides aren't really preventing Weavile from doing its job. Another thing is, Weavile doesn't exactly lose to faster mons: Ice Shard does a number to all of them bar Scarf Jirachi and Scarf Heatran, so if they're weakened enough they can't revenge kill. The thing that hampers Weavile, though, is the priority infested metagame, but that's something that affects every single A+ Pokemon, too.
I've been using Weavile a lot recently, and I have to say it works against every single playstyle: against offensive teams, Weavile has an easier time, and it's usually taking down more than one enemy; against defensive teams, Weavile may not be scoring a KO, but the utility Knock Off provides is really helpful. I'd like to mention that Weavile's one of the selected few cases that can chose its checks and counters when deciding its moveset: Low Kick lets it win against Bisharp, Ferrothorn and Tyranitar, Return while odd does a good job against Azumarill and Keldeo, SD lets it muscle through fat stuff (Skarmory, Suicune and Mega-Venasur for example). As others mentioned, checking Weavile is easier in theory than in practise.


Mega-Altaria: A -> A- (Disagree)
Mega-Altaria has a hard time sweeping at the moment. Dragon Dance sets either offensive or defensive need a lot of support to get the job done, since they are easily walled, crippled or revenged. But this doesn't mean Mega-Altaria has fallen from grace: with BO beeing the most effective playstyle in the actual metagame, the Support set became better, since it lets Mega-Altaria abuse its great typing and provides defensive sinergy to a team, checking a lot of top tier threats and providing with Heal Bell support while still packing quite the punch, even when uninvested. Long story short, I'd agree with DD Mega-Altaria beeing A-, but the bulky Support set is A material in my opinion.


Mega-Latias: A- -> A (Agree)
Everything has been said about this beast. If she's running Thunder Wave, she provides great para support; if she's running Calm Mind, she can be your wincon. Even though Psychic typing is terrible defensively, her bulk lets her stomach SE hits, even STAB ones, and retaliate back. And, for a tank, Mega-Latias has an incredible Speed, which is why I believe she deserves beeing A (you should always be running Speed EVs on her, since she can't risk beeing outsped by offensive Garchomp or Terrakion). She has flaws, like beeing unable to win against Calm Mind users like Clefable, Reuniclus or Slowbro, but that's easy to patch with the rest of your team.


Empoleon: B- -> C+ (Agree)
Empoleon is one of those Pokemon that sounds promising, but doesn't work as good as expected in practise. A SR setter, a Fairy resist, a Defog user, and a phazer? Role compression seems good on paper but Empoleon isn't accomplishing that much in a battle. Most of the time Empoleon will have to take a hit before moving because of its bad Speed tier, add to that common weaknesses like Ground and Fighting, no reliable recovery and boom: you'll lose your Empoleon sooner than later. It can't have both Chople and Shuca, so it can't check both Mega-Diancie and Mega-Gardevoir simultaneously, to be honest it can't really check any of them unless it's at high health (good luck with that tho). It loses against every hazard setter except for Hippowdon, and it struggles to get a turn to Defog. In my opinion, Empoleon should drop from B-.


On another note, I support p2: Terrakion should go back up to A-. Choice Band set is crazy right now, once it's brought in your best bet against it is clever prediction because nothing can really stomach its hits unless resisted.
 
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What do you guys think of Quagsire moving to B+? It's a pretty nice Pokemon that is able to check a ton of relevant threats right now including electric types and the two bulky grounds Garchomp and Landorus-T, and also other top-tier mons like Weavile, Excadrill, Scizor, Talonflame, Mega Charizard X etc. and can threaten them back or Recover in their face. Grass coverage isn't all that common on the things it's supposed to be checking like Mega Metagross, which is a pretty neat bonus.

And Chansey should only move up to B+ at most. A- is a bit too high considering it being rather easy to take advantage of with Taunt, strong physical attackers, and entry hazard setters and being worn down more easily due to the lack of Leftovers. Being vulnerable to every form of entry hazards really sucks for it and Knock Off is still prevalent in the tier. It also has a bit of 4MSS. It likes having Thunder Wave, Wish, Heal Bell, Toxic and to a lesser extent Stealth Rock and Healing Wish but it can't run them all at once. So A isn't the right place for it, considering the problems it has. B+ is a fine place for it because B is underselling the best special wall in the game (that can even check some Pokemon that go mixed like Diancie). Yeah, it has its problems but it walls the many things it needs to and can provide fantastic support for stall and balance at the cost of only one team slot.
 
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What do you guys think of Quagsire moving to B+? It's a pretty nice Pokemon that is able to check a ton of relevant threats right now including electric types and the two bulky grounds Garchomp and Landorus-T, and also other top-tier mons like Weavile, Excadrill, Scizor, Talonflame, Mega Charizard X etc. and can threaten them back or Recover in their face. Grass coverage isn't all that common on the things it's supposed to be checking like Mega Metagross, which is a pretty neat bonus.
I don't really see Quag as on par with most of what's in B+ right now, and the meta is shifting against it's viability if anything, not towards it - we're in a place where a lot of common special attackers like Hoopa-U, Keldeo, Tornadus-T, Latios, Manaphy, Mega-Gardevoir (and even some strong physical attackers) can comfortably 2HKO it or at best force it out and get a free hit on your team. Even the physical/set-up threats things you listed aren't all comfortably checked; Weavile can remove it's leftovers and quite easily flinch it down in a pinch, getting the 3HKO at worst, Adamant Sand Rush Excadrill gets an almost guaranteed 2HKO if it's running Life Orb, Banded TF has a high chance to 2HKO (albeit not the most common set but not the least either), and Adamant ZardX comfortably 3HKOs meaning that only a healthy Quag can check it - sure he can 100% check Jolly but that's a big gamble (not to mention that even then Quag's only a safe switch in if your opponent has revealed their Zard form). Mega-Meta is in the same boat as ZardX, and also has the bonus of a reasonable flinch chance on Zen Headbutt, plus the option of cleanly 1HKOing with Grass Knot. Azumarill is the same; Quag checks Belly Drum and AV nicely, but is cleanly 2HKO'd by Banded Azu.

The long and short of it is that all the mons that are checked by Quag have certain sets or conditions that can beat it anyway, and the meta is actually shifting towards things that it doesn't check...

All the physical threats
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 192-227 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 148-175 (37.5 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 156-185 (39.5 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

And the special ones that we already know beat it for completeness' sake...

160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (Life Orb and 252 SpA = 74.6% minimum)
252 SpA Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 184-217 (46.7 - 55%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (with life orb or specs = guaranteed 2HKO)
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 253-298 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 339-399 (86 - 101.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Hoopa Unbound Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 381-448 (96.7 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 390-460 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 322-381 (81.7 - 96.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 234-276 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 154-183 (39 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery (burn = Manaphy win)

Manaphy and Thundurus can both take Grass coverage too, and do so fairly commonly.


Quag's other issue is that it's best fit on full stall, which at the moment is matchup dependant at best, and at worst just unviable. That said, on full stall he's an excellent hard-stop to a lot of Stallbreakers that rely on boosts; many offensive boosting threats have ways of muscling through him, as above, but there's definitely merit in his ability to hard stop things like CM Clefable and BD Azu. He should probably stay where he is for similar reasons to Chansey - he's an excellent tool for certain specific teams, but not too valuable to the vast majority of other teams.
 
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Sputnik1 said:
Empoleon is one of those Pokemon that sounds promising, but doesn't work as good as expected in practise. A SR setter, a Fairy resist, a Defog user, and a phazer? Role compression seems good on paper but Empoleon isn't accomplishing that much in a battle. Most of the time Empoleon will have to take a hit before moving because of its bad Speed tier, add to that common weaknesses like Ground and Fighting, no reliable recovery and boom: you'll lose your Empoleon sooner than later. It can't have both Chople and Shuca, so it can't check both Mega-Diancie and Mega-Gardevoir simultaneously, to be honest it can't really check any of them unless it's at high health (good luck with that tho). It loses against every hazard setter except for Hippowdon, and it struggles to get a turn to Defog. In my opinion, Empoleon should drop from B-.
I don't want to derail the thread too much, but honestly, Empoleon is meant to be used at the start of a game nowadays to keep Garchomp, Landorus-T, Clefable, Hippowdon, Excadrill, and Heatran from setting up rocks. Honestly, don't use it as your SR setter. You'd use this set as a nice anti-lead / lure for Garchomp, Lando T, and Exca. As I've said, it's by no means an amazing mon, but it has a niche and it fulfills that niche well. It's meant to put immediate pressure on the most common SR setters and force them to either switch or set up rocks and die. Or, they can attack you. Have fun with that. If they attack you, you'll always walk away with your Empoleon intact, albeit missing a chunk of health, and you'll have killed TankChomp or Landorus-T. Honestly, killing one of those two at the expense of 60% off of your Empoleon is a great trade. This niche is definitely worth at least B-

Empoleon @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Flash Cannon
- Defog
 
And, I don't mean to flood the forum, but I want to make a nomination that I feel is long overdue in this meta:

Rotom-Heat
C -> B-/B

I feel that Rotom Heat is HEAVILY underrated. This thing packs more resistances than Rotom Wash, has a STAB combination that in this metagame, is actually very good, and I think just as good as Rotom-Wash's, it walls out every Fairy type not named Azumarill, it walls Mega Charizard Y, is a true counter to Mega Scizor, can dunk on Tornadus-T, Breloom, Serperior, Bisharp, Ferrothorn, Mega Metagross, doesn't have a neutrality to Electric as it just resists it, so it doesn't fear Thundurus at all, and it can deal with Mega Venusaur. While yes, it's weak to things that Rotom-W isn't, such as Lando T, Excadrill, TTar, and offensive waters, it still covers quite a lot, and frankly, it's just downright sad that it's stuck in the same rank as Mega Absol, Mega Banette, and Mega Aggron, while being labelled worse than Tentacruel and normal Kyurem of all things. ROTOM HEAT FOR B-/B
 
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