Ladder STABmons [OMotM November]

[Ghoul King]

I have no particular opinion on Porygon-Z. I tend to feel like it's an example of a fun STABmons 'mon -it gets a lot of benefit from the meta, but with Shell Smash gone it's just powerful, but whether it's broken I dunno.

Kyurem-Black really does need to go. Between getting an actual Physical Ice STAB (Often enough to push it over in other metas) and gaining Dragon Dance, all while Teravolt means it laughs at your Unaware walls, the Dragon Dance+Roost variants can become basically untenable to deal with outside of being something like a full fakespeed team. It's just too bulky to easily stop it from getting started, and with Substitute it can ignore any attempt to drop Toxic on it or hit it with a Burn, especially since it resists Scald/Steam Eruption and so its Substitutes will often be able to shrug off those attacks.

My current team won't be much affected either way because it is a full fakespeed team, but that's no argument to keep Kyurem-Black in.

 

[Lcass4919]

neither of these pokemon are broken

kyurem-b is a good dragon dancer, in fact it's likely the best, but it isn't by any means broken or overcentralizing. the only annoying thing abt it is earth power. otherwise most teams have a counter. and plus, offensive teams give kyurem-b nearly zero room to set up. life orb mixed is probably the best set right now since it bops things like rotom-h/heatran, but otherwise i feel that kyurem-b is just a *good* threat. what has changed to cause it to be worthy of a suspect? it seems weird to suspect it after nearly no changes (besides steam eruption, which actually makes kyurem-b worse) and i dont feel it's even worthy either way.

porygon-z is bad against anything that has higher speed and resists extreme speed. unless you run scarf boom which has the obvious ghost/steel coming from a mile away. download is annoying as hell, but again, offensive teams are able to apply solid pressure anyways. and again, what's made porygon-z suddenly worthy of a suspect test?

tl;dr: what's changed to make these two suspects?

now if you want a suspect, go thundurus. shit's broken.

to be completely honest, i dont know how i feel about the two suspects, kyurem B has been proven to be a complete godsend in most of my teams, dd has been getting a fair bit of chances to set up, even against offense dispite what unfixable said mostly due to how scary kyurem-b is in the first place, basically setting up on almost every S and a lot of A ranked poke in the tier, thundurus, landorus, tornadus,azu, garchomp, gyarados even stuff that can check kyurem fear it just because of how insanely hard it can hit, gets near perfect boltbeam coverage with priority, and on top of that, its choice banded sets is one of the scariest choice sets ive seen ever even against offense getting at least 2 kills per game. not to mention kyurems bulk is beyond excellent, as it is technically bulkier then skarmory, something i dont think many people talk about enough about kyurem, its only problem is its typing, which isnt even 100% bad in the first place due to dragon helping immensely. and lets not forget it can run a deadly special set to pick off certain counters. of course, again, idk if its broken, but suspect testing it is def worth it.

porygon z on the other hand, is a complete monster. fun fact: in order to not get 2hkoed by SCARF PORYGON Z, you have to run max spc def...STEEL TYPES. and even then your still getting a hefty chunk taken off. idk where the stigma where steel/ghost types existing makes scarfs lives difficult, because ironically magnet pull and scarf ttar are perhaps the best partners to it to tank the fakespeeds/opposing boombursts going after it, not to mention pz can run dark pulse to eliminate all ghosts but sableye. scarf boomburst eradicates anything not spc def steel, ghost, or chansey. and i mean anything.
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 194-230 (49.3 - 58.5%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 149-176 (46.1 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 157-185 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Goodra: 170-202 (44.2 - 52.6%) -- 18.4% chance to 2HKO

and something that has been rising in popularity, is fakespeed pory...which at first sounds stupid...until you realize the damage its capable of doing on your team.
252 Atk Silk Scarf Adaptability Porygon-Z Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 102-120 (34.1 - 40.1%) -- 33.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Silk Scarf Adaptability Porygon-Z Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 202-238 (67.5 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery(basically RK's 85/70/70 pokemon at full hp)
im not sure exactly what spread they run, but most run growth/nasty plot on the last slot, which turns a lot of steel types into death fodder to the thing. of course, it means ghosts 100% wall...but sable is the only common ghost type barring gengar, and both arent really something pz likes to tango with anyways.

what made these "Different" is that we have taken time before suspecting them. i mean, its not like we havent banned them before. and the meta is no different for these two. so i don't get your last point. i AM on the edge with both of these... but thats all the more reason to suspect them.

and thundurus is another im on the fence about. its very scary...but just like pory and kyurem, it has trouble vs offense. but unlike the two, thundy also has problems with stall...without taunt its complete bait for chansey, without t-wave its very easy to revenge kill for offense. ive never used thundurus and said "wow, im sweeping so easily" or "wow this stall team has nothing for it!" so im also on the fence about it. but ill support a suspect.

 

[EV]

I want to see more discussion on Kyurem and PZ @_@

What do you use to check them? Keep these sets in mind:

• Cure Rum
  • Sub+DD+Icicle Crash+Fusion Bolt
  • Sub+DD+Roost+Icicle Crash
  • Special lure
  • 4 attacks mixed
  • Banded
  • Scarfed
  • Assault Vest
• EZPZ
  • Scarf
  • Specs
  • Flame/Fist/Earth Plate Mixed Adaptability (usually Judgment/Boomburst/Fake Out/Espeed)
  • Agility+3 attacks
  • Double Dance
  • Work Up

 

[skies]

Eevee General

• 
  • Sub+DD+Icicle Crash+Fusion Bolt
    • 
      Rotom-Heat: Rotom-H takes a +1 IC, and even less from Fusion Bolt. It also breaks the sub with Lava Plume on offensive variants, while Blue Flare will always break the sub regardless of spread. After that, it threatens back with a Nuzzle/Burn on turns where Substitute isn't up. Choice Scarf sets outspeed +1 Kyu-B and do a hefty chunk with Blue Flare (2HKO) and still lives IC after SR, making it very reliable against this variant almost all of the time.
      
      +1 252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-H: 132-156 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery0 SpA Rotom-H Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 99-117 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO0 SpA Rotom-H Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 160-189 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​
  • Sub+DD+Roost+Icicle Crash
    • see: above, but you've gotta run blue flare
  • Special lure/4 attacks mixed
    • 
      Porygon2: Not hurt by anything other than Focus Blast or Draco Meteor. And after the drop, Draco Meteor isn't going to beat it out thanks to Milk Drink. Glare / Boomburst threaten any Substitute variants of this and the coverage lures don't scratch Porygon2 at all.
  • Banded/Scarfed/AV
    • 
      Mega Scizor: Avoids 2HKO from Fusion Bolt with surprisingly minimal investment, and walls all other sets. BP 2HKOes back, and it OHKOes with Gear Grind. Only really have to make sure that Hidden Power Fire isn't being run.

Still working on P-Z. Funnily enough, Kyu pairs really well with its checks, which also take on Kyu's checks. Weird how things work out lol.

 

[StallMandibuzz]

Wow this looks like an amazing metagame. I wonder how Gen VII would toss things up for it? Would legitimately love to play this meta, P-Z would be a beast in it with Boomburst and the like.

 

[baconbagon]

Wow this looks like an amazing metagame. I wonder how Gen VII would toss things up for it? Would legitimately love to play this meta, P-Z would be a beast in it with Boomburst and the like.

It's playable on the main Showdown server now! Feel free to join the Other Metas room and find some people to battle with

 

[Quantum Tesseract]

I want to see more discussion on Kyurem and PZ @_@

What do you use to check them? Keep these sets in mind:

• Cure Rum
  • Sub+DD+Icicle Crash+Fusion Bolt
  • Sub+DD+Roost+Icicle Crash
  • Special lure
  • 4 attacks mixed
  • Banded
  • Scarfed
  • Assault Vest

I'm fond of keldeo (rip in FuBolt making it not a counter) and Scarfrakkion, which beats all non-Lo/band varients on the switch once and is a great rock-resisting counter all game. Rotom Heat is also nice, especially since it gets the godly volt switch, and I've had some success with WoW+SD acroTalonflame (as a check obv), and surprisingly regular metagross is also a decent option.

• EZPZ
  • Scarf
  • Specs
  • Flame/Fist/Earth Plate Mixed Adaptability (usually Judgment/Boomburst/Fake Out/Espeed)
  • Agility+3 attacks
  • Double Dance
  • Work Up

Most of these are beaten by your everyday Handy-Dandy Gengar, which also has a neat offensive presence (although it gains nothing and still loses to like lopunny). Heatran is also a nice answer to all but the third, and chansey does decently when I run stall. Its a lot more annoying, though- all my best solutions seem to be "keep up offensive pressure and hit it 'till it dies."

 

[EV]

Kyurem-B and Porygon-Z will be banned after OMGS ends.

 

[skies]

Kyurem-B and Porygon-Z will be banned after OMGS ends.

why?? there hasn't been any shift in discussion since the day after you posted the suspect. can we please let others chime in, or better yet, have a suspect process?

 

[Funbot28]

Yes this seems very abrupt to me especially since these are two more controversial suspects, which require more discussion imo.

 

[EV]

*crickets*

Well I'm not convinced they should stay. You've failed to provide enough examples of checks and counters so I'm banning them. The Immortal if you would be so kind.

 

[Josh]

Please explain this to me: if pz is so broken, why did it not appear ONCE in omgs playoffs out of every replay I could find? I get that it's a small sample but without a (good) ladder it's the best we have, and surely a broken mon would at least be on a couple teams ?_? And its not like it has a big representation in room toura from what ive seen either. Most of the anti pz logic is theorymon, I'd like to see some replays etc to actually prove it's broken because from personal experience it's not.

 

[skies]

Yeah I absolutely don't agree with how this was executed. Maybe I didn't show you they aren't broken, but you haven't shown me they ARE broken. No replays or evidence. Just theorymon, from both sides.

 

[EV]

This is how I've done literally every other ban. Why are people suddenly exasperated? The metagame is too small for a proper suspect. If you were expecting due diligence, maybe you should go play OU.

 

[Lcass4919]

Yeah I absolutely don't agree with how this was executed. Maybe I didn't show you they aren't broken, but you haven't shown me they ARE broken. No replays or evidence. Just theorymon, from both sides.

you guys have been giving theorymon. we have been actually showing calcs, and even replays on kyurems part. and everything you have said has been A) proven wrong, and B) doesnt change the fact its broken:

you dont have to be uber fast uber bulky AND uber strong to be banworthy. look at hoopa. literally the only difference between the two (specs is the reason OU banned it due to having no checks, physical had nothing to do with it) is that pory does it with 1 move, without specs. and has to choose the "coverage" to break either ttar, or sable. or it can run a fakespeed set, which is infinitely more free then hoopas scarf set. similarily, scarf pory is the same, since boomburst is a lot more spammable.

joshz even admits it would be banworthy if it wasnt for its speed and bulk. both of which clearly didnt matter for hoopa/pory z pre-split.

with that said, provide evidence 2 mons proven banworthy without any alterations of the tier/pokemon themselves (pory rarely used smash due to its bulk issues you guys mentioned) aren't banworthy now...in a literally unchanged meta barring slowbro and keldeo, then maybe he should reconsider. but as far as i see, given we proved it banworthy before, you guys failing to provide evidence, us literally having the previous tier as a backbone, and we STILL provided more backed-up-reason then you guys(calcs are technically proof, but im guessing you dont consider them), what eevee is doing is justified. and don't tell us its too slow or frail to be broken, because that didnt stop pory before, and didnt stop hoopa either.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

*crickets*

Well I'm not convinced they should stay. You've failed to provide enough examples of checks and counters so I'm banning them. The Immortal if you would be so kind.

This is definitely the right call. I stopped playing STABmons after the open because the meta was so busted and punishing to anyone trying to play a bulky playstyle. There were just to many Pokemon that were extremely difficult to counter. I often felt the need to stack checks for mons like P-Z, Kyu-B, Thundurus and Mega Slowbro, which isn't a sign of a healthy metagame. So i stopped playing because i don't find broken and limited metas fun.

Kyurem-Black and Porygon-Z are simply too versatile and powerful for the STABmons metagame. They both have very few (if any) reliable counters and can threaten to sweep every playstyle. The only reason Kyurem-B was ever allowed in OU was its mediocre defensive typing and lack of Ice STAB and set up, the latter of which STABmons fixes. In Porygon Z's case Adaptability boosted Boomburst is simply too powerful, while Judgement and Fakespeed is overkill. Both Pokemon have a variety of options that can easily beat their would be checks and counters.

Kyurem-Black's only 100% reliable counter i know of is Bronzong, which is hardly a viable pokemon in the STABmons metagame. Mega Scizor is generally very reliable because it only loses to Hidden Power Fire, which is very rare. Jirachi is also reliable but takes quite a bit of damage from Band sets using Earth Power. In my experience those are the best 3 counters because every other would be counter is defeated by Band/ Set up STAB or coverage. Ferrothorn is 2hkoed by banded Icicle Crash. Heatran is set up bait if it doesn't run Flash Cannon which is a really poor move choice considering how many other great options Tran has. Why would you ever run Flash Cannon over Doom Desire, Taunt, King's Shield, or Stealth Rock? Rotom-Heat is crushed by Outrage and Earth Power. And as Eevee General has clearly demonstrated its more than bulky enough to run set up and sweep teams. Thats plenty enough for ban imo.

As for Porygon-Z, which actually deals with Boomburst? Or any of it's STABs? Its not theorymonning to say nothing because this calc doesn't suddenly change in battle:

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 171-202 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sp.def Heatran gets 3hkoed, and it has no healing and can't OHKO back. There are no counters for Specs/Nasty Plot sets on Balance and Stall teams. Not even Chansey can stop it.

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 320-378 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO. (not even an item)

The most popular sets on the ladder, Mixed LO and Choice Scarf deal with offense quite well. Unfixable claimed that faster resists can deal with PZ but that simply isn't true.

252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 157-185 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 170-201 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Terrakion and Jirachi can't safely get into P-Z without a pivot or sacking a mon, which isn't really acceptable. P-Z's Fakespeed is also fairly powerful and kill keldeo with just a little prior damage. Additonally Work Up is common on mixed Porygon-Z.

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 91-109 (28.1 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 179-213 (55.4 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Both pokemon are super versatile and have a plethora of sets that are difficult to check and counter. So how are they not broken? And how is this really theorymonning when i'm basing these calcs on actual sets run on ladder?

 

[Funbot28]

Like Joshz had mentioned previously, damage calcs can show that Porygon-Z can potentially 2HKO Heatran with Boomburst which is scary and all, but it had very few switchin opportunities as its poor defenses basically limited the amount of hits it can take. Also Judgment is a situational move as the choice of either running Fire or Fighting can often leave P Z to be checked by one mon depending on the coverage it runs. Its a glass cannon, and STABmons is not new to this (say hi to Keldeo, Ursaring, and Thundurus). The tournament usage reflect this risk/reward imo.

This for Kyurem: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3547279/page-14#post-6796025

Yes Eevee General you have the authority, but you have to understand that this suspects are not as "clear-cut" as the previous ones, and the prolonged discussion should reflect that.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Like Joshz had mentioned previously, damage calcs can show that Porygon-Z can potentially 2HKO Heatran with Boomburst which is scary and all, but it had very few switchin opportunities as its poor defenses basically limited the amount of hits it can take. Also Judgment is a situational move as the choice of either running Fire or Fighting can often leave P Z to be checked by one mon depending on the coverage it runs. Its a glass cannon, and STABmons is not new to this (say hi to Keldeo, Ursaring, and Thundurus). The tournament usage reflect this risk/reward imo.

This for Kyurem: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3547279/page-14#post-6796025

Yes Eevee General you have the authority, but you have to understand that this suspects are not as "clear-cut" as the previous ones, and the prolonged discussion should reflect that.

There's like 1 anti ban on every side and a lot of silence due to this being a fairly dead format these days. This isn't BH, where there's a gigantic playerbase to make a fully democratic decision without it construing bias. If there was hard evidence that wasn't contested I could see being of a mind with you, but atm Josh disagrees with PZ and i think unfix with Kyu-B. That's it in terms of disagreement. You had 10 days notice to step up and bring evidence that they aren't broken, which nobody did.

 

[xJownage]

This is definitely the right call. I stopped playing STABmons after the open because the meta was so busted and punishing to anyone trying to play a bulky playstyle. There were just to many Pokemon that were extremely difficult to counter. I often felt the need to stack checks for mons like P-Z, Kyu-B, Thundurus and Mega Slowbro, which isn't a sign of a healthy metagame. So i stopped playing because i don't find broken and limited metas fun.

Kyurem-Black and Porygon-Z are simply too versatile and powerful for the STABmons metagame. They both have very few (if any) reliable counters and can threaten to sweep every playstyle. The only reason Kyurem-B was ever allowed in OU was its mediocre defensive typing and lack of Ice STAB and set up, the latter of which STABmons fixes. In Porygon Z's case Adaptability boosted Boomburst is simply too powerful, while Judgement and Fakespeed is overkill. Both Pokemon have a variety of options that can easily beat their would be checks and counters.

Kyurem-Black's only 100% reliable counter i know of is Bronzong, which is hardly a viable pokemon in the STABmons metagame. Mega Scizor is generally very reliable because it only loses to Hidden Power Fire, which is very rare. Jirachi is also reliable but takes quite a bit of damage from Band sets using Earth Power. In my experience those are the best 3 counters because every other would be counter is defeated by Band/ Set up STAB or coverage. Ferrothorn is 2hkoed by banded Icicle Crash. Heatran is set up bait if it doesn't run Flash Cannon which is a really poor move choice considering how many other great options Tran has. Why would you ever run Flash Cannon over Doom Desire, Taunt, King's Shield, or Stealth Rock? Rotom-Heat is crushed by Outrage and Earth Power. And as Eevee General has clearly demonstrated its more than bulky enough to run set up and sweep teams. Thats plenty enough for ban imo.

As for Porygon-Z, which actually deals with Boomburst? Or any of it's STABs? Its not theorymonning to say nothing because this calc doesn't suddenly change in battle:

252 SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 171-202 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sp.def Heatran gets 3hkoed, and it has no healing and can't OHKO back. There are no counters for Specs/Nasty Plot sets on Balance and Stall teams. Not even Chansey can stop it.

+2 252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 320-378 (49.8 - 58.8%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO. (not even an item)

The most popular sets on the ladder, Mixed LO and Choice Scarf deal with offense quite well. Unfixable claimed that faster resists can deal with PZ but that simply isn't true.

252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Jirachi: 157-185 (46 - 54.2%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Terrakion: 170-201 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Terrakion and Jirachi can't safely get into P-Z without a pivot or sacking a mon, which isn't really acceptable. P-Z's Fakespeed is also fairly powerful and kill keldeo with just a little prior damage. Additonally Work Up is common on mixed Porygon-Z.

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 91-109 (28.1 - 33.7%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Porygon-Z Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 179-213 (55.4 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Both pokemon are super versatile and have a plethora of sets that are difficult to check and counter. So how are they not broken? And how is this really theorymonning when i'm basing these calcs on actual sets run on ladder?

Please explain this to me: if pz is so broken, why did it not appear ONCE in omgs playoffs out of every replay I could find? I get that it's a small sample but without a (good) ladder it's the best we have, and surely a broken mon would at least be on a couple teams ?_? And its not like it has a big representation in room toura from what ive seen either. Most of the anti pz logic is theorymon, I'd like to see some replays etc to actually prove it's broken because from personal experience it's not.

Just leaving this: My HUGE pet peeve with bans is people making theorymon bans and acting like it's common sense. Logic can tell you Sablenite Cresselia is broken in mix and mega, but logic couldn't tell you pinsirite lucario was. This theorymon approach to bans will lead to bad metagame decision. We are thriving for the best metagame in practice, not just on paper. In practice, on Carrying the Torch, me and Betathunder abused both of the banned mons. I can say with absolute certainty that neither were broken in practice against most foes. Listen to somebody who played about 100 matches in time, rather than theorymon logic based off of no evidence. You might as well treat this as one of the many unplayable formats that don't ban things based on theorymon because they want to be sure they're broken before blindly going into bans without testing and sufficient evidence.

Kingslayer, I understand where you are coming from, but I want to say that I cannot see this metagame ever displaying true stability. The absolute reality is that we HAVE to make our own ban definition, somewhere in between OU and Ubers, in order to coin balance in this metagame.

For the past 4 months, this metagame has made bans based on OU tiering philosophy on whatever Eevee has suspected. Realistically, I can name you a large number of mons that are broken in this current metagame by OU's tiering philosophy, so instead of banning whatever we suspect because so many things fit that definition, we need to have some sort of definition on our own rather than sitting here with our tails between our legs pointing fingers at what should be banned based on what Eevee decides to suspect.

Porygon-Z, Kyube, Thundurus, Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Keldeo. All of these are broken based on OU definitions right now, but hey! We Shouldn't go around banning everything fits a definition that isn't even designed for the meta we play! Tons of things will always be broken in STABmons. This was a problem before we banned moves, this is a problem now, this will inevitably be a problem with this metagame. We can either take the slippery slope of banning everything in sight or we can treat this like a different meta with it's own banning philosophy.

 

[Funbot28]

Just leaving this: My HUGE pet peeve with bans is people making theorymon bans and acting like it's common sense. Logic can tell you Sablenite Cresselia is broken in mix and mega, but logic couldn't tell you pinsirite lucario was. This theorymon approach to bans will lead to bad metagame decision. We are thriving for the best metagame in practice, not just on paper. In practice, on Carrying the Torch, me and Betathunder abused both of the banned mons. I can say with absolute certainty that neither were broken in practice against most foes. Listen to somebody who played about 100 matches in time, rather than theorymon logic based off of no evidence. You might as well treat this as one of the many unplayable formats that don't ban things based on theorymon because they want to be sure they're broken before blindly going into bans without testing and sufficient evidence.

Kingslayer, I understand where you are coming from, but I want to say that I cannot see this metagame ever displaying true stability. The absolute reality is that we HAVE to make our own ban definition, somewhere in between OU and Ubers, in order to coin balance in this metagame.

For the past 4 months, this metagame has made bans based on OU tiering philosophy on whatever Eevee has suspected. Realistically, I can name you a large number of mons that are broken in this current metagame by OU's tiering philosophy, so instead of banning whatever we suspect because so many things fit that definition, we need to have some sort of definition on our own rather than sitting here with our tails between our legs pointing fingers at what should be banned based on what Eevee decides to suspect.

Porygon-Z, Kyube, Thundurus, Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Keldeo. All of these are broken based on OU definitions right now, but hey! We Shouldn't go around banning everything fits a definition that isn't even designed for the meta we play! Tons of things will always be broken in STABmons. This was a problem before we banned moves, this is a problem now, this will inevitably be a problem with this metagame. We can either take the slippery slope of banning everything in sight or we can treat this like a different meta with it's own banning philosophy.

This is what basically was on my mind, we changed this meta game twice in August and December because of this slippery slope mentatlity. Let's not make the same mistake thrice.

 

[Kingslayer2779]

Like Joshz had mentioned previously, damage calcs can show that Porygon-Z can potentially 2HKO Heatran with Boomburst which is scary and all, but it had very few switchin opportunities as its poor defenses basically limited the amount of hits it can take. Also Judgment is a situational move as the choice of either running Fire or Fighting can often leave P Z to be checked by one mon depending on the coverage it runs. Its a glass cannon, and STABmons is not new to this (say hi to Keldeo, Ursaring, and Thundurus). The tournament usage reflect this risk/reward imo.

This for Kyurem: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons.3547279/page-14#post-6796025

Yes Eevee General you have the authority, but you have to understand that this suspects are not as "clear-cut" as the previous ones, and the prolonged discussion should reflect that.

Just because pokemon is frail doesn't mean its not broken lmao. Greninja was very frail and hardly switched into anything. It was broken in STABmons. "its frail" does not balance a pokemon by any means lmao.

It looks pretty clear cut from my side. I know there are some of you that don't agree but unfix literally posted 3 conditional checks, so if thats all the arguments he can make it just helps prove Kyu-B is broken.

Just leaving this: My HUGE pet peeve with bans is people making theorymon bans and acting like it's common sense. Logic can tell you Sablenite Cresselia is broken in mix and mega, but logic couldn't tell you pinsirite lucario was. This theorymon approach to bans will lead to bad metagame decision. We are thriving for the best metagame in practice, not just on paper. In practice, on Carrying the Torch, me and Betathunder abused both of the banned mons. I can say with absolute certainty that neither were broken in practice against most foes. Listen to somebody who played about 100 matches in time, rather than theorymon logic based off of no evidence. You might as well treat this as one of the many unplayable formats that don't ban things based on theorymon because they want to be sure they're broken before blindly going into bans without testing and sufficient evidence.

Kingslayer, I understand where you are coming from, but I want to say that I cannot see this metagame ever displaying true stability. The absolute reality is that we HAVE to make our own ban definition, somewhere in between OU and Ubers, in order to coin balance in this metagame.

For the past 4 months, this metagame has made bans based on OU tiering philosophy on whatever Eevee has suspected. Realistically, I can name you a large number of mons that are broken in this current metagame by OU's tiering philosophy, so instead of banning whatever we suspect because so many things fit that definition, we need to have some sort of definition on our own rather than sitting here with our tails between our legs pointing fingers at what should be banned based on what Eevee decides to suspect.

Porygon-Z, Kyube, Thundurus, Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Keldeo. All of these are broken based on OU definitions right now, but hey! We Shouldn't go around banning everything fits a definition that isn't even designed for the meta we play! Tons of things will always be broken in STABmons. This was a problem before we banned moves, this is a problem now, this will inevitably be a problem with this metagame. We can either take the slippery slope of banning everything in sight or we can treat this like a different meta with it's own banning philosophy.

First off this isn't theorymonning. This is a simple demonstration of what the most common sets on the ladder are capable of. Theorymonning is when someone goes "well x could possibly run y set and beat z mons." Theorymonning would be if i said "well porygon can run a double dance set and just sweep everything." Demonstrating what the most common sets on ladder /=/ theorymonning. I also assumed that i had the ethos to not have to spell out that my arguments are based on my experiences with PZ but i guess not. Yeah i don't have replays but they aren't mandatory to make a case. Secondly i don't think anyone has mentioned the OU tiering philosophy at all. We've done a solid job of establishing the power level of banworthy things. Things that are about as powerful as Diggersby, Mega Altaria etc. compared to the rest of the tier are banworthy. Porygon-Z is very comparable to Diggersby's and Mega Altaria's power levels. Kyurem-B doesn't have much in common with either mon but the power level is pretty similar.

Your arguments about the OU Ban policy, keeping broken things in STABmons, and a balanced meta are entirely your opinion. Its your perception of whats going on. I can't exactly tell you your opinion is wrong but i can certainly disagree with it. And i quite strongly disagree. If something is "broken" defined as something like "extremely difficult to check/counter compared to the rest of the tier and gives an inherent advantage to the player using it" it should be banned. Yes alot of things got banned last time but they were needed bans for the tier to stay competitive and balanced. I think the Kyurem-B and Porygon-Z bans were a needed step in the right direction. And yes the Ou tiering policy wasn't made for STABmons but STABmons is based on OU. A tiering policy made for OU by a large number of highly informed and skilled players is better than anything a dying om community can come up with.

 

[skies]

Thundurus​

With access to Prankster in conjunction with Thunder Wave and Nasty Plot, alongside excellent offensive stats with a Special Attack stat of 125 and a Speed stat of 111, it's a no-brainer that Thundurus is an S Rank threat. Beyond this, Thundurus is able to shut down defensive teams with Taunt, or even just power through them with Nasty Plot. What separates Thundurus from other Nasty Plot users is its access to Oblivion Wing, making Thundurus one of the only set-up sweepers that continuously has high HP left. Here is the set that is causing an issue:

Thundurus @ Life Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Taunt / Thunder Wave
- Oblivion Wing
- Thunderbolt

This set takes advantage of every single positive aspect of Thundurus. Able to shut down defensive Pokemon, power through them and other offensive threats, and utilizing its immense power.

Thundurus is broken, and should be suspect / banned. Thundurus is effectively able to invalidate an entire playstyle. Although stall is generally not a very effective strategy in STABmons, Thundurus just makes it so that this entire playstyle is unable to do anything at all. Here is what Thundurus is able to do against common defensive Pokemon in various situations.

without Stealth Rock | without boosts:
252 SpA Life Orb

Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Unaware

: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb

Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD

: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb

Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD

: 130-153 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- 22.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb

Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD

: 126-149 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 92.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb

Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD

: 199-235 (52 - 61.5%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

with Stealth Rock | without boosts:
252 SpA Life Orb

Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Unaware

: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 47.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb

Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD

: 133-157 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb

Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD

: 130-153 (33.6 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb

Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD

: 126-149 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb

Oblivion Wing v2s. 252 HP / 0 SpD

: 199-235 (52 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

without Stealth Rock | with boosts:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb

Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD

: 265-312 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb

Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD

: 257-304 (66.5 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb

Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD

: 253-298 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb

Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD

: 398-469 (104.1 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

with Stealth Rock | with boosts:
+2 252 SpA Life Orb

Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD

: 265-312 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb

Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD

: 257-304 (66.5 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb

Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD

: 253-298 (71.8 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb

Oblivion Wing vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD

: 398-469 (104.1 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As demonstrated by the calculations, each of these defensive Pokemon have to be at 100% HP the entire match or Thundurus is more than likely to OHKO. Or they'll be 2HKOed/OHKOed either way after a boost. Plus, none of these Pokemon can defeat Thundurus, and it can Oblivion Wing spam them to death. Taunt prevents their recovery as well. These of course aren't the only Pokemon that are used on defensive teams, these are simply examples.

Now, Thundurus checks. The best checks are offensive checks (Choice Scarf), priority (Extreme Speed), Rotom-H, and Thundurus-T. Choice Scarf – The most common are Terrakion, Keldeo, Landorus-T, and Heatran. Terrakion does win 1-v-1, but absolutely cannot switch in. Keldeo is the same, but even has to fear either of Thundurus's STAB options. Landorus-T is solid, and Stone Edge just has to hit, but Oblivion Wing still damages it a ton. Heatran is 2HKOed by Thundurus since it has no investment. But, most importantly, none of these Pokemon enjoy Thunder Wave, effectively neutering the checks in a single click. Then we have Priority – This is most commonly in Mega Lopunny and other Extreme Speed users. Mega Lopunny cannot take a hit, and neither can any other Extreme Speed users. Thunder Wave is a liability for them anyways. Extreme Speed is the best check to Thundurus, but it isn't even safe. Rotom-H is solid... until Thundurus runs Focus Blast and 2HKOes it. Thundurus-T is 2HKOed, even with AV, by +2 OW after Stealth Rock, but it's a fine check otherwise.

Basically what it comes down to for me is that Thundurus simply makes the metagame not enjoyable. It's so easy to just be swept by a Thundurus, or lured and destroyed by a physical set or some other shenanigan. Thundurus is unhealthy for the metagame and should be banned.

Note: I would write more, but I'm tired! I will address counter-arguments tomorrow.

 

[EV]

This is like banning Gale Wings Skarmory in AAA. It's so splashable. It's so customizable. I just started getting into Defiant Bulk Up :(

It will make teambuilding much easier though, except soon I'll have to change about half my teams because they had Thundy too.

 

[skies]

Is that a yes to suspecting it Lord Eevee General?

 

[EV]

Better before OMPL than halfway through.