Gen VII: Pokémon Sun and Moon (New info Post #5834)

[pharaohcalvin]

Look, how is it dumbing it down? Veterans to the game like you and me already know type combos, so what is the big deal. You don't have the hints until the second battle with a certain pokemon, so what's the problem with trying to figure it out? Also you can toggle it off. The idea is for newcomers, not for you and me, and so what's the big deal? Do you know type combos? Yes, so there should be no more arguments in this. Please research how this feature works before you make a big deal out of this. Knowing what's super effective doesn't give away the typing anyway.

Sometimes it takes multiple encounters to figure out a typing, like in my example. Second, even if it is for newcomers it reduces the need of knowledge that they would learn playing through the game, making them less likely to learn it which is a bad thing for the development of their personal skills. Not to mention that it still gives huge hints on how to get by something instead of encouraging experimentation. Not to mention if it is happens to be available in online matches....it will literally close skill gaps some. Finally, it is a huge hint towards what the typing would be. To the odd type match-up stuff being annoying to face and makes you "feel cheated" of a loss. So does a ton of different things in the game, like Confusion and attraction. However, those two are actually out of your control, knowing the type chart is not. If you feel cheated out of not knowing something, perhaps you should learn it.

Edit: On the subject of Popplio's real life counterpart there is a famous type of seal in Hawaii called a Monk Seal. If it does become a water/fighting in the end that would make a great possible origin point for the line considering the popular trope of the warrior monk.

 

[GatoDelFuego]

RaWr xD :) :) :) Very cute!

 

[Exor]

Yes it is dumbing it down, anything that removes the need for knowledge is dumbing the game down. Yes, other stuff can dumb it down more (look at gen 5 and all the free win mons in it) but that doesn't change the fact that it is clearly being dumb down. As far as your sister goes, that is her choice, I don't see why I should be okay with a game becoming worse for me because it becomes more appealing to her. Just as she doesn't need to accept my opinion if it makes the game worse for her (in this case that knowledge of the type chart should be on the player not given to you in game). As to the does it ruin the game for me, no, but hell yeah it makes it far worse for me. Part of the enjoyment I have had in the past was figuring out the typings of new mons, like I went quite the way in D/P before figuring out Stunky was part dark until I tried to hit it with a psychic move long after I battled my first one. Now it will tell me not to do this, therefor making the experience worse for me. I want to be punished if I don't know something, not told how to win the game.

or, you know, they could implement the groundbreaking idea of making it optional

at first I agreed with you but then my friend bitched at me, and after said bitching, I see his point about newcomers being confused as fuck. Like, really dude, we're gonna have around 800 pokemon, or shit, that number might even end up closer to 900. Especially considering that the regional dex might be even more of a glorious clusterfuck than xy's. Me, I'd rather delve into said clusterfuck without this new feature, even some newcomers would prefer that, but the rest of the newcomers, like, geez, can you really blame them for wanting such a feature?

RaWr xD :) :) :) Very cute!

yungoos might even exceed past litten's spot as the best alola mon so far. I never thought I'd be excited to see the final form of an early rodent

 

[QuickBH]

or, you know, they could implement the groundbreaking idea of making it optional

at first I agreed with you but then my friend bitched at me, and after said bitching, I see his point about newcomers being confused as fuck. Like, really dude, we're gonna have around 800 pokemon, or shit, that number might even end up closer to 900. Especially considering that the regional dex might be even more of a glorious clusterfuck than xy's. Me, I'd rather delve into said clusterfuck without this new feature, even some newcomers would prefer that, but the rest of the newcomers, like, geez, can you really blame them for wanting such a feature?

I hope it's an option just so my (nonexistant) friends whom I teach when I'm in my game won't just mash super effective moves and actually learn to predict.

 

[Eisen]

Popplio is a sea lion not a seal, if they focus on the seal musical performances they would have to do a species change...also seals are the most powerful fighters and the ones that actually hone and create battle skills as sea lions often die in their first mating season.

Sea lions have separated hind legs. Seals do not. Popplio is a seal, not a sea lion.

 

[peaswar]

Sometimes it takes multiple encounters to figure out a typing, like in my example. Second, even if it is for newcomers it reduces the need of knowledge that they would learn playing through the game, making them less likely to learn it which is a bad thing for the development of their personal skills. Not to mention that it still gives huge hints on how to get by something instead of encouraging experimentation. Not to mention if it is happens to be available in online matches....it will literally close skill gaps some. Finally, it is a huge hint towards what the typing would be. To the odd type match-up stuff being annoying to face and makes you "feel cheated" of a loss. So does a ton of different things in the game, like Confusion and attraction. However, those two are actually out of your control, knowing the type chart is not. If you feel cheated out of not knowing something, perhaps you should learn it.

Edit: On the subject of Popplio's real life counterpart there is a famous type of seal in Hawaii called a Monk Seal. If it does become a water/fighting in the end that would make a great possible origin point for the line considering the popular trope of the warrior monk.

you can toggle it off

Sea lions have separated hind legs. Seals do not. Popplio is a seal, not a sea lion.

ummmmm.. Popplio is a sea lion and does have hind legs

 

[Norne]

Sea lions have separated hind legs. Seals do not. Popplio is a seal, not a sea lion.

I could have sworn his legs where in the galloping stance.

------------
Edit

Upon research, yes it is a sea lion a fur seal unlike the true seals family.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

or, you know, they could implement the groundbreaking idea of making it optional

at first I agreed with you but then my friend bitched at me, and after said bitching, I see his point about newcomers being confused as fuck. Like, really dude, we're gonna have around 800 pokemon, or shit, that number might even end up closer to 900. Especially considering that the regional dex might be even more of a glorious clusterfuck than xy's. Me, I'd rather delve into said clusterfuck without this new feature, even some newcomers would prefer that, but the rest of the newcomers, like, geez, can you really blame them for wanting such a feature?



yungoos might even exceed past litten's spot as the best alola mon so far. I never thought I'd be excited to see the final form of an early rodent

The issue is, it is not that the type chart is hard, it is that in gen 6 and most likely gen 7 they are overloading too many pokemon onto the new players pre-E4. This issue could be solved by having less mons in the regional dex meaning they see more of the same mon making it less stressful to have to learn all the types at once. It also makes the game harder by limiting team choices. Sure they still need to learn the typings of all the other pokemon, but if you aren't going to really see them before battling over wi-fi it is not much of an issue as most new players will need to do some form of research before jumping into wi-fi land anyhow.

To the toggle off part, I already addressed why that doesn't matter.

Edit: On the seal/seal-lion part most pokemon have more then one source that they are developed from so it is possible it took a little from both in the long run. Either way, whenever we get the final stages it may become more clear.

 

[peaswar]

The issue is, it is not that the type chart is hard, it is that in gen 6 and most likely gen 7 they are overloading too many pokemon onto the new players pre-E4. This issue could be solved by having less mons in the regional dex meaning they see more of the same mon making it less stressful to have to learn all the types at once. It also makes the game harder by limiting team choices. Sure they still need to learn the typings of all the other pokemon, but if you aren't going to really see them before battling over wi-fi it is not much of an issue as most new players will need to do some form of research before jumping into wi-fi land anyhow.

To the toggle off part, I already addressed why that doesn't matter.

Edit: On the seal/seal-lion part most pokemon have more then one source that they are developed from so it is possible it took a little from both in the long run. Either way, whenever we get the final stages it may become more clear.

Remind me why toggling off doesn't matter?





On a comletely different note, remember that the Secret Souvenir is of a protector....

and Tapu Koko is a protector of Isle 1....

So Tapu Koko could be the Secret Souvenir, given that it isn't Solgaleo or Lunala. Conversely, it could be Zygarde 100%



Also, Since XY seems to be related to SM I looked into the relationship of France and Hawaii. Read if you please.
http://www.hawaiihistory.org/index.cfm?PageID=284

 

[shockwave527]

*Comes back from work, sees 7 pages/160+ messages*
Where was this confirmed? If its true, oh well, not that big of a loss though Ledian is one of those Pokemon who's hoping its Mega gives it some sort of niche to make it viable at least in the middle tiers.

In the Pokedex on the treehouse, they stated that the Pokeballs in the background were, in fact, where evolutions and forms of the Pokemon are placed. When he caught a Ledyba, there was only an empty space for Ledian, so it's safe to assume the (expected) fact that it does not have a pre-evo, a new evo, or a mega.

 

[peaswar]

In the Pokedex on the treehouse, they stated that the Pokeballs in the background were, in fact, where evolutions and forms of the Pokemon are placed. When he caught a Ledyba, there was only an empty space for Ledian, so it's safe to assume the (expected) fact that it does not have a pre-evo, a new evo, or a mega.

No he didn't say forms, he said closely related species, like Illuminise and Volbeat.
Megas toggle as the same pokemon as the normal form, so its possible

 

[Xander of Nohr]

RaWr xD :) :) :) Very cute!

I swear to god that whenever I look at this thing all I see is Donald Trump....

Anyways, regarding the new move-effectiveness feature: I don't actually mind it. It's nice to have and honestly, it only makes the game more welcoming to newcomers which is nice and I don't think it closes the skill gap at all. Sure, they'll know which move they should use, but that only means they won't be playing like complete idiots and that's all.

Loving the Free-For-All battle mode btw. Some friends and I would usually have to improvise it and I'm just glad it's a official thing now.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Remind me why toggling off doesn't matter?





On a comletely different note, remember that the Secret Souvenir is of a protector....

and Tapu Koko is a protector of Isle 1....

So Tapu Koko could be the Secret Souvenir, given that it isn't Solgaleo or Lunala. Conversely, it could be Zygarde 100%



Also, Since XY seems to be related to SM I looked into the relationship of France and Hawaii. Read if you please.
http://www.hawaiihistory.org/index.cfm?PageID=284

"Second, even if it is for newcomers it reduces the need of knowledge that they would learn playing through the game, making them less likely to learn it which is a bad thing for the development of their personal skills." That is without going onto the it is still simpler path, which a lot of keep stating helps get people into the game, but that is a neutral point as well. Some people like harder games, and just having easier options in it is a turn off. But back to that point that is quoted, I actual have had two friends quit who started in 6th because they had no idea how to actually battle well in any format because the in game does such a poor job preparing you. A lot of that issue comes from how easy it is. If I just tell you the type of move to hit the pokemon with it doesn't encourage innovation on the players end to figure out how to deal with a situation in a game. If you actually have to think my way through something, you will improve in some form. This better prepares you for other players. While you will need to do some form of research as a new player going onto actual players, if you feel like there is too much information to learn it will turn you away. If you wanted to help new players (through some form of knowledge requirement reduction), simply giving them the other pokemon's typing would actually work better. At least then they have to think through what moves to hit it with. Of course, reducing the number of mons in teh regional dex would work better in this regard. Of course, this is just one small issue when it comes to not actually preparing players in game. (Powerful pokemon that can pretty much just win the game on their own is a much larger offender but that is different issue)

 

[peaswar]

"Second, even if it is for newcomers it reduces the need of knowledge that they would learn playing through the game, making them less likely to learn it which is a bad thing for the development of their personal skills." That is without going onto the it is still simpler path, which a lot of keep stating helps get people into the game, but that is a neutral point as well. Some people like harder games, and just having easier options in it is a turn off. But back to that point that is quoted, I actual have had two friends quit who started in 6th because they had no idea how to actually battle well in any format because the in game does such a poor job preparing you. A lot of that issue comes from how easy it is. If I just tell you the type of move to hit the pokemon with it doesn't encourage innovation on the players end to figure out how to deal with a situation in a game. If you actually have to think my way through something, you will improve in some form. This better prepares you for other players. While you will need to do some form of research as a new player going onto actual players, if you feel like there is too much information to learn it will turn you away. If you wanted to help new players (through some form of knowledge requirement reduction), simply giving them the other pokemon's typing would actually work better. At least then they have to think through what moves to hit it with. Of course, reducing the number of mons in teh regional dex would work better in this regard. Of course, this is just one small issue when it comes to not actually preparing players in game. (Powerful pokemon that can pretty much just win the game on their own is a much larger offender but that is different issue)

You still haven't explained why toggling it off will not work


I have a feeling that the evil team may be from kalos in this game, because the french came to hawaii and were being "evil" to the natives

 

[pharaohcalvin]

You still haven't explained why toggling it off will not work


I have a feeling that the evil team may be from kalos in this game, because the french came to hawaii and were being "evil" to the natives

Because it is bad for beginners and does nothing for experienced players for the reasons listed in the last post.....I thought it would be clear considering that the argument for why toggling was fine was that it was useful for beginners. (It is not)

 

[Eisen]

Because it is bad for beginners and does nothing for experienced players for the reasons listed in the last post.....I thought it would be clear considering that the argument for why toggling was fine was that it was useful for beginners. (It is not)

Neither is knowing exactly what Pokémon will be sent out next. Complaining about it accomplishes nothing, it's happening anyway and it's likely going to stay.

 

[Xander of Nohr]

"Second, even if it is for newcomers it reduces the need of knowledge that they would learn playing through the game, making them less likely to learn it which is a bad thing for the development of their personal skills." That is without going onto the it is still simpler path, which a lot of keep stating helps get people into the game, but that is a neutral point as well. Some people like harder games, and just having easier options in it is a turn off. But back to that point that is quoted, I actual have had two friends quit who started in 6th because they had no idea how to actually battle well in any format because the in game does such a poor job preparing you. A lot of that issue comes from how easy it is. If I just tell you the type of move to hit the pokemon with it doesn't encourage innovation on the players end to figure out how to deal with a situation in a game. If you actually have to think my way through something, you will improve in some form. This better prepares you for other players. While you will need to do some form of research as a new player going onto actual players, if you feel like there is too much information to learn it will turn you away. If you wanted to help new players (through some form of knowledge requirement reduction), simply giving them the other pokemon's typing would actually work better. At least then they have to think through what moves to hit it with. Of course, reducing the number of mons in teh regional dex would work better in this regard. Of course, this is just one small issue when it comes to not actually preparing players in game. (Powerful pokemon that can pretty much just win the game on their own is a much larger offender but that is different issue)

Innovation? What is there to innovate? If the opposing pokemon is a fire type you hit it with a water type move, and the game is now telling you to do exactly just that. How is that confusing or detrimental to new players? Not being able to figure the game out because it is too easy? That doesn't make sense.

Having to look up type match-ups only adds an extra layer of difficulty that actually didn't need to be there. It doesn't make the game harder, it doesn't make you think more; it only means someone is gonna waste even more time memoring stuff instead of gaining actual ingame experience.

And really, pokemon's battle mechanics aren't, and have never been, difficult to understand. The mind games it can play on you is what makes it challenging. There's a reason why even a 6 years old can beat this game.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Neither is knowing exactly what Pokémon will be sent out next. Complaining about it accomplishes nothing, it's happening anyway and it's likely going to stay.

O I highly doubt that it will change at all this gen. Also you are correct, knowing what is next is not a good thing either, but of course, I never said it was. Finally, complaining about stuff does get things change. I already sent an email to Nintendo, giving them feed back on what they showed off (both good and bad and something I encourage people to do if you really like a product/series) if enough people give negative feedback about a feature it could be scrapped in the next games after S/M or even in S/M if it gets a ton. As far as complaining here goes, this is a thread about talking about the new revealed information, it is on subject and perhaps maybe I can get a few people to actually also complain to Nintendo on the matter.

Edit: To the above: Figure out different ways to deal with it, if you don't know what type it is you may have to think about how to work around that. You still have to think, thinking is good period. If I don't have to think at all, you will just go through what the game tells you to do. Also knowledge requirements make things harder, why do you think college is harder than high school? Because of a higher knowledge requirement. It is silly to say that requiring information doesn't make it harder. But yes the games are easy, super easy, but that is the issue. The point is, you don't want the in game so easy that you come out completely 100% unprepared to play against other players like 6th gen does to you. Of course, you don't want it so hard that you can't get into the game either. You want a balance between the two and I personally think that older games did a much better job of this then 6th gen did, which is far to far one the easy side. (Also note I said do a better job, they didn't do it perfectly) That being said, if you want to remove the time barrier that is preventing people on cart from getting more play time in it is called IVs not the type chart.

 

[peaswar]

Because it is bad for beginners and does nothing for experienced players for the reasons listed in the last post.....I thought it would be clear considering that the argument for why toggling was fine was that it was useful for beginners. (It is not)

Your posts are contradictory.
First you say that keeping it on is detrimental to beginners, then you say turning it off is. What do you mean?
You say that keeping it on is unnecessary for veteran players, so turn it off
A newbie wants to play the game without help, turn it off
A newbie needs help until they get the grasp of the game, turn it on.
What is the problem here, you aren't being clear


Also, everyone likes the idea, you are the only one I've seen who can't understand that it isn't even a bad thing


How do you know it won't be helpful for beginners? It helps them grasp it, it is like training wheels, They only need it until they get it. And if it is useless for experienced players, you can turn it off

 

[Project_Mars]

The issue is, it is not that the type chart is hard, it is that in gen 6 and most likely gen 7 they are overloading too many pokemon onto the new players pre-E4. This issue could be solved by having less mons in the regional dex meaning they see more of the same mon making it less stressful to have to learn all the types at once. It also makes the game harder by limiting team choices. Sure they still need to learn the typings of all the other pokemon, but if you aren't going to really see them before battling over wi-fi it is not much of an issue as most new players will need to do some form of research before jumping into wi-fi land anyhow.

To the toggle off part, I already addressed why that doesn't matter.

But back to that point that is quoted, I actual have had two friends quit who started in 6th because they had no idea how to actually battle well in any format because the in game does such a poor job preparing you. A lot of that issue comes from how easy it is. If I just tell you the type of move to hit the pokemon with it doesn't encourage innovation on the players end to figure out how to deal with a situation in a game. If you actually have to think my way through something, you will improve in some form. This better prepares you for other players. While you will need to do some form of research as a new player going onto actual players, if you feel like there is too much information to learn it will turn you away. If you wanted to help new players (through some form of knowledge requirement reduction), simply giving them the other pokemon's typing would actually work better. At least then they have to think through what moves to hit it with. Of course, reducing the number of mons in teh regional dex would work better in this regard. Of course, this is just one small issue when it comes to not actually preparing players in game. (Powerful pokemon that can pretty much just win the game on their own is a much larger offender but that is different issue)

Did you offer to help them?

It's something that would be a lot more convenient for the casual player who tends to not bother with Wi-Fi too much and couldn't be arsed to really care about stuff like the Smogon metagames. The casual player who doesn't devote as much time or memory to learning the types of each individual Pokemon, much less their weaknesses and resistances. The casual player who probably couldn't be arsed to look that sort of info up and commit it to memory because they will probably play the game for another 10 - 12 hours after beating it before moving on.

And I dunno, If they have an easier way in-game to figure out which moves are super effective vs which types, they may be more inclined to try to figure out what sets of moves get the best coverage (I know I did back in gen 2. Even though I didn't apparently understand stats that well.) If they want to continue from there then they'll probably look into other stuff like Support moves and what-not, but as a starting point: Giving them something that can train them into learning the type chart as they play (albeit in a more obvious manner) is a pretty good one.

Also, you mention reducing the number of 'mons in the regional dex as a way to reduce complication twice... I'm not sure I buy the effectiveness of that given that it doesn't address the fact that there are 800 Pokemon in total. It could be argued that could make Wi-Fi seem even less accessible because, from a new player's perspective imo, you have a lot more Pokemon you haven't seen before with abilities and possibly moves you haven't seen before. And sure you can probably infer typing from visual cues (i.e. Marine life is pretty universally water-type. Pokemon of a certain type tend to be a certain color.) but on the other hand sometimes that can seem counter intuitive (What about Flygon indicates that it is Ground/Dragon? It is Green and resembles a bug.)

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Your posts are contradictory.
First you say that keeping it on is detrimental to beginners, then you say turning it off is. What do you mean?
You say that keeping it on is unnecessary for veteran players, so turn it off
A newbie wants to play the game without help, turn it off
A newbie needs help until they get the grasp of the game, turn it on.
What is the problem here, you aren't being clear


Also, everyone likes the idea, you are the only one I've seen who can't understand that it isn't even a bad thing


How do you know it won't be helpful for beginners? It helps them grasp it, it is like training wheels, They only need it until they get it. And if it is useless for experienced players, you can turn it off

I didn't say turning it on would be better for them. I said it would be better for them to just tell they the typing of the other pokemon instead of telling them which move to use. Which if you wanted to reduce the knowledge that a new player has to acquire, that does it a hell-a-lot better. Has then you only need to know the type chart and you know which moves will work well on it. On top of that, it provides them knowledge to work around with learning to swap pokemon based on type match ups. So you get information to work the new players brain with instead of telling them what to do. The issue I have is it helps create the lack of innovation and battle skills that it takes to help get you into battling other players. A lot of people don't get into competitive because they get thrashed horribly attempting to step into it. This just adds another layer onto an already existent problem in the series. Is that more clear?

Edit to the above: I did. They thought it was too much. But lets start with the causal stuff. You are right, it is fine for causals, but the thing is, the series it self has better life span with more dedicated players. If the in games did a better job of preparing new players, more will become more involved in pokemon itself which is a good thing for the series! Thats why I'd like to see the game do a better job of bring people towards competitive! Now as for the regional dex bit, if you only see a mon once or twice you are not likely to memorize its typing or any of that. However, if you see it a bunch you are far more likely to do so and are more likely to have a feel for its base stats. This leads you to at least have some information on it. Well it is true that some mons are left dry and you will need to look them up, it just that unless you make the games super long and show off a bunch of every pokemon they are just going to drown out the others and they may learn very little, instead of nothing. On top of that, majority of the 700+ mons are completely worthless in the commonly played formats (OU/VCG) so knowing their typings and stats are not that important. So older mons like Raticate don't need to really be shown off in the main dex. Of course you need some weaker early mons and what not, but you don't need almost all of the mons around! As far as giving them some information to get them going, I did suggest that just giving the types instead would work better. It gives you a starting point to expand on, while not just telling you what to do.

Edit 2: Project_Mars just figured I'd tag you just make sure you saw that I did reply to you here.

 

[peaswar]

I haven't seen pokemon amie or super training so far in reveals. Do you think maybe they dropped them? How to get sylveon if so?

I didn't say turning it on would be better for them. I said it would be better for them to just tell they the typing of the other pokemon instead of telling them which move to use. Which if you wanted to reduce the knowledge that a new player has to acquire, that does it a hell-a-lot better. Has then you only need to know the type chart and you know which moves will work well on it. On top of that, it provides them knowledge to work around with learning to swap pokemon based on type match ups. So you get information to work the new players brain with instead of telling them what to do. The issue I have is it helps create the lack of innovation and battle skills that it takes to help get you into battling other players. A lot of people don't get into competitive because they get thrashed horribly attempting to step into it. This just adds another layer onto an already existent problem in the series. Is that more clear?

take the example of training wheels. Does biking with training wheels in the start prevent you from biking well without them later?

 

[noobcubed]

I haven't seen pokemon amie or super training so far in reveals. Do you think maybe they dropped them? How to get sylveon if so?

Trailers are more likely to display new stuff. People don't get as excited by things they've seen before.

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I haven't seen pokemon amie or super training so far in reveals. Do you think maybe they dropped them? How to get sylveon if so?

take the example of training wheels. Does biking with training wheels in the start prevent you from biking well without them later?

I don't see how a learning a motor skill relates to learning logical thought processing or even remotely with a situation that has been leaving people overwhelmed. There are simply better ways of teaching people this sort of information, way better ways besides directly telling them what to do. However, on the subject of the anime/super training. I'd be sad if super training was gone, it actually taught people about evs. However, I doubt they would be gone. I know that the amie was really popular overall and it would seem odd to remove super training.

 

[peaswar]

I don't see how a learning a motor skill relates to learning logical thought processing or even remotely with a situation that has been leaving people overwhelmed. There are simply better ways of teaching people this sort of information, way better ways besides directly telling them what to do. However, on the subject of the anime/super training. I'd be sad if super training was gone, it actually taught people about evs. However, I doubt they would be gone. I know that the amie was really popular overall and it would seem odd to remove super training.

motor skills relates to logic though.
I cannot continue to argue with you about something which you are seemingly unable to see. I'd like to discuss other stuff about the trailer, and fighting with you about something which makes no sense to argue over is pointless.