Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)


B+ to A-

Starmie was recently a mon that caught my eye as a Pokemon that is really underappreciated in the meta game. It has a really awesome speed tier outpacing a lot of threats like Gengar, band Terrakion, and Thundurus. It also has a notably decent defensive typing in a tier where Mega Medicham has zero switch ins, and it may not be a switch in, but it resists both of Mega Medicham's STABs and can stomach a hit. Starmie is a terrific spinner as well, and really has a great offensive presence to go along with that.

Analytic is such a great ability for Starmie, and it is a fantastic hard hitting spinner. Nothing likes switching into Analytic boosted Hydro Pumps, and the grass types like Tangrowth that would usually deal with this thing hate getting Toxiced or taking an analytic boosted Ice Beam while switching in. And while pursuit trappers like Tyranitar and Weavile are everywhere, this thing has the power behind it and the defenses to actually stomach a pursuit while staying in and OHKO T Tar.

The decline in electric types like Raikou and Mega Manectric is hugely helpful to Starmie, and it has a way around every single grass type as well. Tangrowth is beat by Hydro Pump into Ice Beam or Psychic. Amoonguss drops to Psychic if it ever switches in. And it also helps Starmie that these bulky offensive cores like Rotom and Landorus can be torn apart by Starmie and some of its best teammates. Rotom certainly does not wanna take an analytic boosted psychic and Lando T drops to Hydro Pump or Ice Beam.

Meta game trends have been much friendlier to the star than a lot of other mons and in general bulky waters are so much better now. I also support Suicune to rise as well. It provides a lot of different things that Slowbro and Starmie cannot provide teams like phasing, a strong bulky set up sweeper, and an actual answer to Weavile. Similarly, Starmie is the water type that provides a speedy hazard control user that provides massive offensive pressure to the opposing team.
 
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Gary

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Mini Ranking update, OP will be updated with changes as soon as bludz gets on:

A- ---> A
A- ---> B+
B+ ---> A-
B+ ---> B


Most of these changes are pretty self-explanatory, as they've been discussed quite a bit in the past, specifically Mega Altaria and Thundurus. Mega Gyarados may seem a bit random but it's definitely been discussed a lot over time and it's pretty clear that Mega Gyara is not anywhere near as effective as most of the Pokemon in A-, or even some of the ones in B+. It's fat and strong, but it's very hard pressed to sweep because of meta trends, and it has issues setting up due to its SR weakness pre mega. We felt that it's similar to Volcarona, in that it's pretty matchup reliant, and it's either a pretty big liability or it just 6-0es.

Starmie was also discussed a bit, especially after that ass post nomming for it to drop, but we've decided that Starmie is definitely too big of a threat right now to be put into the same rank as something like Gengar, which is falling out of favor. Defensive sets are much less effective, but its offensive sets are very threatening and its Speed tier is fantastic combined with unprecedented coverage. There's arguably no better hazard remover for offensive teams, because anything else just loses you too much momentum or can be heavily punished in Latios' case. It forces so many switches that it can easily get off a Rapid Spin too. Starmie is too much of a staple for offensive teams these days, so it makes no sense keeping it any lower than A-.

And here is our new discussion slate, please try to keep on topic:

Amoonguss B+ ---> A-: Hands down the best pivot in the tier right now, and its massive use in the tour scene definitely proves its effectiveness. It fits so well on the most common archetype atm, Sand BO, because it just blanket checks so many important threats to Sand like Keldeo, Mega Scizor, and Mega Diancie. While it's a bit passive, especially after something is put to sleep, it's not set up fodder due to Clear Smog and HP Fire keeps the likes of Mega Scizor or Ferrothorn from coming in for free. We feel that it's more effective than both Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur in B+, and makes more sense to raise it then lower those two. It also just fits pretty well in the same rank as other fat Pokemon such as Skarmory, Gliscor, and Jirachi.

Volcanion A ---> A-: Please read this post for an explanation.

Suicune B+ ---> A-: Please read this post for an explanation.

Mega Gardevoir A- ---> B+: Mega Gardevoir has lost a significant amount of effectiveness and tour usage for good reason. Some of its best checks; Mega Scizor, Jirachi, and Skarmory are really popular right now, which prevents it from mindlessly spamming Hyper Voice like it used to. It's also heavily pressured by lots of offensive Pokemon because of its lower Speed stat and pitiful physical bulk, so it loses to Mega Diancie, Mega Lopunny, Weavile, Terrakion, Scarf Tyranitar, Excadrill, LO Chomp, Bisharp (unless you play around Sucker I guess) etc. It just has a really hard time distinguishing itself from the other wallbreakers in A-, mainly Mega Heracross which has much more bulk and practically zero counters, or even Zard-Y which requires a bit more support in exchange for counters that are all T-tar bait. Now with Mega Altaria sitting in B rank, it makes more sense to put it with the likes of Mega Manectric and the other good but less effective megas.
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Hi I wanna nom mega amphy for unranked

I struggle to see how this mon has any sort of niche in the tier when electrics are declining in usage and when the other relevant ones it's supposed to check have ways around it, Thundy has np, Rotom can just wisp and volt off it, this sort of ties in with the fact that spike stacking is very dominant, meaning that it's just gonna struggle with checking shit really badly. It also suffers from the fact that fairies (Clef + Diancie) are some of the most dominant mons in the tier along with sand and ground types. It's just gotten really shit lately and it's slowly been getting worse, I actually don't see any reason to use it anymore. If you want a Torn-T answer, use Rotom or Zapdos, not a garbage mon that baits in the best mon in the tier and also takes up a mega slot. Agility sets are also slow as balls and outran by any good scarfer and again, sand. This thing also has next to no relevant usage anywhere, not on the ladder, not in tours, nowhere.

Kinda out of nowhere, but I felt like bringing up given that it's had a WIP analysis sitting for over a year now and I don't think it deserves one anymore.
 
Gardevoir definitely became less threatening recently, and we already dropped it like one or 2 months ago, but I'm not sure if she should drop it again. She has a lot of strengths, but she definitely can struggle with fast physical attackers everywhere. She has advantages over mons like Diancie such as but not limited to immediate power, better speed before mega, and of course Hyper voice. Pokemon like Weavile, Bisharp, LO Chomp and a ton of other frail attackers also struggle to switch into Hyper Voice, which is another plus. I love Focus Blast since it can kill a good number Steel types, it has a chance to KO non-bulky/fat Heatrans, Magnezone (unless full health with sturdy) and weakened Ferrothorns. Focus "Miss" only has 30% chance of missing, at least according to the game anyway. HP Fire/Ground are also good moves that contribute to her decent coverage. From my experience she can also be a threat to offensive team with some support.

I'll admit I don't actually play OU or competitive Smogon as a whole, but that said I believe she has enough strengths to stay A- and I don't think the "its counters are more common" argument is enough to make her drop to B+ when it was the reason she already dropped recently.
 
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Hilomilo

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Here are my personal thoughts on the new noms being made:
Amoonguss B+ ---> A-: Agree Amoonguss is such an effective pivot in the current meta, and seeing as how sand is extremely prevalent and really good right now, we're seeing more and more of sand checks such as Keldeo, Mega Scizor, and Azumarill on teams, which are all mons that Amoonguss can wall to hell and back and threaten out with paralysis or sleep, thus making it a great pokemon for balanced sand teams. It definitely stands out from other grass type stallers in the B+ rank, and totally fits in with the other A- mons.

Volcanion A ---> A-: Undecided I don't really use or see Volcanion enough to be able to come up with a fair judgment about its rank, but I can see reason in gary2346's post about its nom. I'll try using it a little more for the sake of seeing if it compares to other stuff in A.

Suicune B+ ---> A-:
Agree This thing is really good right now, and with it's fantastic bulk and typing, ability to stall with pressure, and fair offensive presence after a few CM boosts, it's able to fit itself onto tons of play styles such as stall, balance, and even bulky offense (to an extent) with ease. Almost every kind of team can benefit from Suicune.

Mega Gardevoir A- ---> B+:
Agree While Mega Gardevoir can still do offensive teams well as a special wallbreaker, one of its best checks in Jirachi is super popular right now, and it's average speed, poor physical bulk, and the prevalence of Choice Scarf and fairy resists in the tier doesn't help it to reliably sweep like it used to be able to. Definitely more on par with the B+ megas like Manectric and Slowbro than with Mega Alakazam and Heracross.
 
Blissey D -> Unranked
Honestly, what's the point of Blissy being in OU when there is Chansey. With the Eviolite, Chansey already has a higher Special Defence than Blissy with Max EVs and any Nature to boost the stat. Also, it has higher the higher Defense stat. Plus the bulk of both mons has such a small difference. In my opinion, Chansey is better than Blissy for a Cleric or "De Blob" set. And mostly on the ladder, you never see Blissy on a team. Idk its just me. Feel free to give me constructive criticism towards me because I'm not sure what to put.

Calcs
Chansey
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 315-372 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 168-198 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 260-306 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 271-319 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Etc.

Blissey
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 433-510 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 210-248 (32.2 - 38%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 326-384 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 370-436 (56.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Etc.
 

false

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As much as I love Amoonguss, it's just not at the same level as other defensive Pokemon that sit in the A- subrank. Pokemon such as Mega Latias, Skarmory, and Jirachi are all, in my opinion, far better Pokemon than Amoonguss. Obviously a fantastic pivot, Amoonguss is exceptional at fulfilling the role it provides, giving great role compression, and the ability to fit on a large variety of builds thanks to a great ability and access to utility moves like Spore and Stun Spore. However, Amoonguss is very very passive and easily taken advantage of by such a massive number of Pokemon. Amoonguss right now is in a perfect situation where all of its positive are accentuated and its flaws are downplayed. Its a fantastic Water resist that also sports key resistances to Fighting, Fairy, and Electric, but is it really as good as the other Pokemon in the A- subrank? I dont' think so. I think the case with Amoonguss is that fact that it is so good at fulfilling the role that its set out to fulfil, that it appears better than it is. Lastly, I'm comfortable with having the three Grasses; Amoonguss, Tangrowth, and Mega Venusaur all in the same subrank. The gap between the three of them is not enough for any one of them to jump an entire subrank, and I think they're all arguably quite similar in terms of viability.

When information about Volcanion was initially announced, I predicted it to eventually settle to A- on the VR and I think this is now coming true. Upon release, people were generally unprepared for it and quickly became upset with how much of a strain Volcanion was on teambuilding. However, the metagame has settled down a bit now, and I think we're finally seeing the kind of Pokemon that Volcanion is. Weakness to Stealth Rock is massive thorn in its side, and the multitude of viable Water + Fire resists in OU from Latios, Rotom-W, Starmie, Slowking, or even opposing Volcanion means that there's a great number of viable options to use as a Volcanion answer, and teams aren't really restricted as much as it initially appeared. Volcanion is obviously by no means a bad Pokemon, nor is it a finished product as of yet. More defensive sets are slowly becoming more popular, and I've really liked Toxic variants of Volcanion as of late. However, for the time being it seems fine for Volcanion to be sitting alongside other matchup dependent Pokemon such as Bisharp and Starmie in the A- subrank.

It seems that Suicune has almost experienced a mini resurgence in popularity thanks to the newfound popularity of the Roar + CM set, and for good reason. CM + Roar Suicune is so good that I think that set alone necessitates a rise. The most similar Pokemon to Suicune in the A- subrank would likely be Gliscor, and I can't imagine there being much of an argument that Suicune isn't on the same level as that in terms of the effect it can have on a game as a more defensively-oriented sweeper. Roar makes counterplay options to Suicune much more limited as attempting to boost alongside it is futile. Combine this with Suicune's already impressive ability to not only act as a great defensive Pokemon, but also to act as a threatening win condition to a variety of common balance archetypes, and I think you'd be hard pressed to say Suicune isn't worthy of A-.

After looking at the B+ subrank, Mega Gardevoir seems to be right at home next to other situational wallbreakers like Gengar, and Kyurem-B. Whilst I'm not 100% sold on Mega Gardevoir being a B+ mon, I can't deny that it appears to fit better there, than next to the likes of Mega Alakazam and Mega Heracross. I think one of the most frustrating things about Mega Gardevoir is choosing the right filler move for the right matchup. Whilst Taunt will better your odds exponentially when facing stall, it's almost useless against more offensive playstyles, where Mega Gardevoir already struggles enough as it is, and would much rather have a utility move like Will-O-Wisp to catch Scizor, Skarmory, and Jirachi. In the end, Mega Gardevoir just a situational Pokemon that excels when facing some playstyles, and can fall flat against others. Whilst I honestly don't have the strongest opinion on this point, if I had to choose, I guess I'm leaning towards drop.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Lastly, I just wanted to make comment on a nomination of my own that I made a little while ago, because I don't see how Magnezone can sit pretty at B+, but Magneton can drop all the way down to C-. I'd like to nominate Magneton for a rise to C.

As I mentioned in my nomination a while back, there are obviously marked flaws such as lesser bulk, and a lower SpA stat which make Magneton an overall worse Pokemon than its evolution Magnezone. However, I still believe that when choosing to run a Choice Scarf Pokemon along this evolution line, the extra Speed makes Magneton an absolutely viable option, that sometimes even outclasses Magnezone in the role they are aiming to fulfil. Being able to outspeed common OU threats such as Weavile, Talonflame, and Tornadus-T is absolutely a noteworthy difference between both Magneton and Magnezone, and I think people don't pay attention to just how important that Speed can be. As shown in a replay like this, Magneton is able to act as a check to Life Orb Tornadus-T, which is something that Magnezone cannot, whilst otherwise performing an almost identical role to that of what Magnezone would have done. I think when you consider that Magneton has the ability to outclass a Pokemon that performs an identical role to the one it performs, it's hard to see why it's so many subranks lower, and therefore I think a rise is warranted.
 

Josh

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Blissey D -> Unranked
Honestly, what's the point of Blissy being in OU when there is Chansey. With the Eviolite, Chansey already has a higher Special Defence than Blissy with Max EVs and any Nature to boost the stat. Also, it has higher the higher Defense stat. Plus the bulk of both mons has such a small difference. In my opinion, Chansey is better than Blissy for a Cleric or "De Blob" set. And mostly on the ladder, you never see Blissy on a team. Idk its just me. Feel free to give me constructive criticism towards me because I'm not sure what to put.

Calcs
Chansey
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 315-372 (49 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 168-198 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 260-306 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 271-319 (42.2 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Etc.

Blissey
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 433-510 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 210-248 (32.2 - 38%) -- 0.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 326-384 (50 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 370-436 (56.7 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Etc.
I made this mom before, blissey is ranked because unlike Chansey it beats manaphy reliably for stall. That said, I still think it should be unranked, especially because manaphy isn't all that common rn.
 

Martin

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I respectfully disagree w/ the Blissey nom. While Manaphy's usage has been dropping, the fact is that a lot of semistall teams still just outright lose to it and there isn't really any other way for these teams to stop all variants from steamrolling them. It's not even like it is a sitting duck when your opponent doesn't bring Manaphy considering that it still blankets special 'mons really well before it's ready to set up and considering that CM+BoltBeam is still just generally really difficult for a lot of teams to deal with once their powerful phys 'mons have been worn down/eliminated due to how insanely good said coverage is even without STAB. And given that virtually any special non-Psyshock/Secret Sword 'mon in the game gets used as setup bait it gets a lot of opportunities to set up a CM--especially in the case of teams where they bring out a Manaphy, as it is a free Blissey switch every time and it allows you to start getting CMs on it before it reaches a point where it can 2HKO an unboosted Bliss.
 
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Amoonguss B+ ---> A-: On the fence. Mainly because I don't think it's much better than Tangrowth or MegaVensaur. It just kinda of sits there and does nothing after it spores something.
Not to mention While it fits well on sand BO it doesn't do well against sand BO since common mons on sand BO like Latio, Lando and Excadrill are everywhere just blow through it.

Volcanion A ---> A agree The metagame has adapted to it too well and severely the SR weaknesses limits it's ability to holepunch and check threats
 
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I'm just here to comment on the two Pokemon I have a for real opinion on.

Amoonguss B+ ---> A-: On the fence

This Pokemon. THIS Pokemon. Amoonguss has been used in OU since its debut in Gen 5, but it has never risen to the ranks by usage. Even before that, however, it was used thanks to its wonderful merits: access to Spore, a good defensive typing in this meta, access to Clear Smog (a huge boon to brag about), and even Regenerator--which, combined with Giga Drain, can mean that Amoonguss will be around in the battle for quite some time. It has come up a long way since it was born (and highly regarded right now as the best pivot in OU), but A- material? There are quite a few tanks, walls, and pivots in A-, both offensive and defensive, but comparing them to Amoonguss would be...unfair. Amoonguss is unique among them (or...among us...kill me) in that it can reliably put a Pokemon to sleep while also walling Breloom, a feat that cannot go unnoticed (even IF Breloom isn't used as much anymore). Sadly, the Pokemon up on top in the usage stats say otherwise to this mushroom's HOPES AND DREAMS; Landorus-T reliably 3HKOs (78.5% to 2HKO after Stealth Rock), Garchomp can phase it out, Excadrill can easily 2HKO, Latios has Psychic, Heatran can fry it for lunch, Talonflame's typing makes it obvious how that would go down, and Tyranitar has enough Special Bulk to bounce up and wreck. Keldeo, Clefable (sometimes), and Rotom-W have difficulty against Amoonguss, however, but that makes 3/10 for it (and shakily at that). To make things even more of a hassle, the other two best Grass-Types, Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur, are already in B+. If we let Amoonguss rise to A-, what becomes of them? Each of the three has their own unique roles in teams that they can easily fulfill, so...why separate one of them? Again, though, I'm still on the fence. This is an issue that, despite using this Pokemon extensively in the past (and even some in the present), I don't know whether or not it stops enough Pokemon to warrant a rise just yet.

Volcanion A ---> A-: On the fence--borderline agree

This is one of the few Pokemon that I absolutely adore but do not have on my ORAS cartridge. This is solely because it's an event Pokemon, but it might be one of the best of them. Volcanion has some important merits; its typing is unique offensively and defensively (combine this with Water Absorb!), its signature move is basically a stronger SCALD (like we needed that), and it has just the right coverage moves in just the right places. With that said, get your ass up and finish its analysis, Smogon. Anyways, despite the fact that I don't actually own a Volcanion, Pokemon Showdown is a wonderful place. I've personally been using the Leftovers variant, as well as an Expert Belt to fake a Choice Specs (worked from time to time, actually). Even though its effectiveness, to me, is completely obvious, it does have some flaws. Firstly, the Stealth Rock weakness. Volcanion is a relatively slow Pokemon (not Slowbro slow, but barely faster than Tyranitar), so not only does the Stealth Rock weakness hurt it, it can severely hinder it. If Volcanion was more of a fast-paced Pokemon like Talonflame, this wouldn't be AS much of an issue. After all, Talonflame has priority and Roost in order to make up for it, while Volcanion doesn't have any of that. In conjunction with its Stealth Rock weakness, it's also weak to Ground and Electric (though the latter isn't as much of a worry anymore), and with the top 3 Pokemon prominent Earthquake users, this can mean bad news for the ring turtle. Secondly, the moveset. This is absolutely pitiful, but Volcanion is definitely a One-Trick Pony. It can only pull one set off; despite pulling it off effectively, it doesn't help hide this fact. The only possible deviation that exists is Solar Beam + Power Herb, which is nothing more than a weak Water-Type lure that completely fails without proper prediction in the first place. It also completely hurts that Volcanion has no recovery move (as it has some impressive bulk). These along are enough to prevent Volcanion from a rise, but I'm starting to lean for a drop. Some people disagree because of the last time a situation like this happened (Hoopa-U). Let's be clear, however, that Hoopa-U is a different breed, literally and metaphorically; Hoopa-U had multiple sets to run, giving it a thick layer of unpredictability that had to be scouted before being properly handled (which could VERY MUCH mean the loss of one of your Pokemon), while Volcanion is so One-Dimensional that every player and their mother could tell what it's running. Give it a rest. It's a horribly argument.
 
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HailFall

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B+ -> A-: Agree
Amoonguss is definitely a decent mon right now even if i don't necessarily agree with "the best pivot in the tier" when we have stuff like rotom-w around. Regardless, regenerator is an amazing ability for a pivot and lets amoonguss stay around longer and recover off rocks damage without giving the opponent a free turn unlike latios for example which checks many of the same things but not as well. Spore makes this thing very frustrating to handle, and the combination of spore and stun spore on the same set is especially potent, letting the opponent fodder something off to sleep and then hitting something like torn, latios, or talon with stun spore on the switch. Two of the things that cockblock amoonguss' spores the best, mega venu and mandibuzz, are very rare right now, leaving the only thing that realibly switches into this before its fired off a spore and is common to be mega sableye (and even THAT doesnt appreciate poison from sludge bomb). And speaking of Mega Venusaur, this is definitely better than venu. Venu has major issues with getting worn down due to reduced recovery in sand as well as lacking several of the utility moves amoonguss has that make it so good. Venu's ability, thick fat, isn't actually that useful when you consider that very few mons venu is actually a check to carry these types of moves (like mega manectric i guess? not much else and even that is not very common). Another point worth considering is that unlike venu, amoonguss is not a liability on sand teams but rather a useful asset thanks to checking several common sand checks like rotom, breloom, and azu. In addition to this amoonguss doesn't take up a mega slot meaning its far more splashable than venu could ever hope to be. Venu has better offensive presence and bulk but the metagame is just being too unkind to it atm for me to really see it as on the same level as amoong. I feel amoonguss is definitely better than like all of B+ excluding suicune.

A -> A-: Agree
Volcanion is at least right now, not as good as it was hyped up to be. Its a pain in the ass to switch into for sure but the passive damage really takes its toll on volcanion's longevity. Especially if your opponent has spikes, taking 37.5-50% on the switch fucking sucks. This is primarily used as a pivot, but a pivot so weak to hazards never fun to use. If you run lefties to try and remedy the weakness to passive damage, you end up forfeiting a large portion of the power that makes volcanion so troubling to switch into. I realize that being hazards weak isnt inherently damning, but volc is slow, so it's going to need to take hits before attacking in the first place a lot of the time due to how slow it is, only exaggerating how quickly it gets worn down. Literally all the hazard weak mons above A- are fast and/or have some form of recovery, so thats something to consider. Also as was stated before, there are also better wallbreakers with similar coverage to volcanion in the tier such as keldeo. Having hyperscald, good bulk, and good special attack is nice and all, but this doesn't belong with other metagame staples like talonflame, excadrill, and weavile in A.

B+ -> A-: Agree
Scary mon tbh. It absolutely feasts on your common bulky offense provided they aren't carrying a grass type most of the time. A lot of its more reliable checks right now have low usage such as gastrodon, seismitoad, and faster electrics. Amoonguss is probably its biggest issue right now, but even that cant do a lot back to it. Thundurus can keep it from setting up but it hates coming in on scald and can even be muscled past if cune has boosted enough. So many teams just arent packing checks to this monster. Not a lot to say that hasn't already been said but yeah, it should rise.
 
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It's Dat Boi Moose back at it with the unpopular opinion. So, I expect the bandwagoning at this point, and it's in no way a surprise, but I've got to say a few things on behalf of Volcanion. This happens with every nomination, everyone focuses on the negative sides of X, completely negating the positive traits X provides. So the SR weakness seems to be brought up a lot, and it is rather unfortunate, but that should not be what determines its placement. Everyone focuses on the small things but refuses to acknowledge Volcanion supplies an absolutely amazing typing with a pretty key immunity to the 3rd most spammable move in the game. It checks such an enormous amount of Pokemon in the current metagame, but I guess we forgot about that. Steam Eruption is absolutely ridiculous and backed by a pretty huge SpA without even accounting for Specs. So, what am I getting at? That when one person nominates a mon to drop, everyone focuses on the negative traits it has, even if there's only a couple to mention. However, we nom something to rise all of the sudden positive traits are talked about. Even if the positives are brought up, they're nonchalantly pushed to the side like, "yea he checks a good chunk of the meta, hits hard as shit, has little to no true counters (if you take status into account), recovers health off of one of the most spammed moves in existence, can come in on a lot of Pokemon, and can spread status, but I mean. . . It's rock weak and slow". If it didn't have any negative traits, it'd be S. No one is claiming Volcanion is a perfect being, but it damn sure isn't what many of you are making it out to be. Sorry, I just have a hard time agreeing when you're nominationg Suicune, Amoonguss, and Volcanion for the same rank.

Granted, people tried to drop Hoopa with the same mindset so who knows. Just pointing out what I've noticed over the years. Proceed to disregard this comment.
 
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AM

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Volcanion in a- seems really weird based on a variety of points mentioned, partially mooses points, and amoonguss to a- im really questioning cause i know people had gripes with it being in B+ to begin with. I sparked the suicune discussion and dont really care about the other stuff that has been mentioned so no comment on those.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
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To piggy back on some of the things said I'd like to say I disagree with a Volcanion drop. Yes it is weak to Rocks and it is slow, but its typing and power make it a true menace.

Consider the number of bulky staple mons which it completely shits on or threatens to OHKO

Ferro, Heatran, Skarmory, Mega Scizor, slow Lando, Amoonguss, Tangrowth, Hippowdon, Azumarill, Jirachi, Talonflame.

This isn't like Mega Garde shit where nothing wants to take a hit but can take one - none of these mons are stomaching a hit from Specs Volcanion bar Azu which is often choiced itself. Most teams in ORAS will have 1-2 of these pokemon which means a nice opportunity to apply pressure.

This is not to say Volc will always 1v1 these mons under every circumstance but it is extremely threatening to them and puts in work against so many defensive cores. It beats 2/3 of FWG which is common as hell. Most of its counters are water type but you ever notice that most waters can't do much back? They can go for Toxic at best really and are susceptible to that tactic from Volcanions end as well. I believe it is a premier wall breaker in the tier thanks to its ridiculous STAB combo and fantastic defensive attributes.

I do certainly think there is merit to the primary arguments against Volcanion. But notice nobody is calling it a good MMeta or Weavile check (despite beating both at full) because it's susceptibility to hazards is being recognized. So it does require some support, but it also offers a fair amount and is extremely difficult to deal with if you keep momentum on your side.
 
Amooguss to A- : Agree

I pushed for this nom a while back but unfortunately it didn't spark that much discussion :( so suffice to say I'm happy it's being brought up for discussion again. Really great defensive pivot at the moment that serves as a blanket check to an obscene amount of mons and is easy to keep healthy throughout a match thanks to regen and lefties. It has an incredible amount of utility (spore obviously, Clear Smog, HP Fire, Stun Spore, Toxic, etc) and is an effective glue mon on quite a few archetypes, the most notable being Sand BO as mentioned above. Overall it's most certainly a step ahead of its competition (for a bulky grass type) and having Amoonguss sharing the same rank as said competition is super misleading IMO.

Suicune to A-: Agree

Not too much to say on this one, AM's post did it great justice. Cune's an under-prepared for threat that serves as a water check, physical wall, status absorber, and bulky win con all in one. Its Roar set especially is hard to deal with since it makes it a ton easier to win CM wars against things like Clef and Reuni and, in tandem with spike-stacking, can wear down opposing teams. Not to mention it serves as a Weavile check and, to a lesser extent, Bisharp check, which can ease teambuilding considering how hard it can be to find a solid answer for them aside from slapping a Keldeo on a team and calling that your check.
 
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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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I do agree that bandwagoning is annoying because people are just restating what others have already said in their own words. Obviously I'm not saying that you can't agree with others, but there's no point in rewording everything they said unless you have something else to add that hasn't already been stated.

Now onto Volcanion. Moose if you read my post again I definitely didn't just list Volcanion's flaws, I made sure to point out as many positive traits as I could without derailing the purpose of my own posts. Let's be real, if I'm trying to argue for something to drop, why would focus so much on all of its positive traits when the purpose of my post is to prove why it needs to drop? Obviously I'm not going to completely ignore the positives, but it just wouldn't be practical to talk about them in detail.

Also, I'm not over exaggerating Volcanion's Stealth Rock weakness at all, because you're right, it's not enough to drop it. I'm not implying that Volcanion should drop because it's not a "perfect being". You need to understand why the SR weakness on Volcanion is significant, and it's not SR alone, it's the combination of that and its subpar Speed. Volcanion is a wallbreaker that thrives on free switch-ins and the ability to come in as much as possible to spam Steam Eruption, which has very little reliable switch-ins outside of Chansey and opposing Volcanion. SR severely limits this because it forces you to play a lot more aggressive to keep hazards off the field, as well as running a form of hazard removal so if SR do go up, it can continually come in. Now with that, outside of slower, fat shit, how much is Volcanion able to come in for free without being forced out pretty easily? Unlike most wallbreakers in the tier, there are still plenty of Pokemon that can easily threaten it out or just outright OHKO it, which it otherwise want to beat. Sure it has a great matchup versus slower teams that depend on fat Grass-types like Amoonguss to check Keldeo, but unlike Keldeo, Volcanion is just so damn vulnerable to being revenge killed. You have shit like faster Lando-T, Gliscor, Jolly Excadrill, Nidoking, offensive Heatran which has a very high chance to OHKO with Earth Power after SR, etc. And these are just Pokemon that most other wallbreakers in OU would want to outspeed, I didn't even mention the slew of other offensive Pokemon that threaten it out. Just because something hits hard as fuck and doesn't have reliable switch-ins doesn't mean that it's SR weakness or Speed isn't that much of an issue. If Volcanion was a bit faster or lacked a SR weakness, it would find many more opportunities to hole punch consistently, see something like Mega Heracross which is also slow but finds many more opportunities to come in because without a SR weakness, it can abuse its bulk. Volcanion is pretty fat too, but again, its bulk is heavily hindered by a massive hazard weakness so it can't really afford to take hits like Mega Hera can.

What I think is being over exaggerated however, is Volcanion's ability to check a ton of Pokemon because of its typing and Water Absorb. Water Absorb is a great ability, don't get me wrong, but please stop acting like it's giving Volcanion a semi-reliable means of recovery, when most of the Water-types found in the tier have an easy way to get around Volcanion's ability. On top of that, it depends too much on Hidden Power to 2HKO them, or Steam Eruption burns. It just doesn't have a very consistent option to threaten them back. Lets look at all the most popular Water-types at the moment. Keldeo has Secret Sword which always 2HKOes it Specs or not, and the only time it can safely come in on it, is if it's locked into a Water-type move. Azumarill is similar because CB Play Rough does so much to it as well. Suicune just stalls it out completely and uses it as set up fodder, and with Roar it will just phaze it out. Slowking and Mega Latias can eat up a Steam Eruption and proceed to set up CM on it. Quagsire has EQ, so it has to be very sure it's switching into a Scald. Rotom-W can eat up a Steam and do close to 70% back with Volt Switch. Offensive Starmie just destroys it with Psychic on the switch and some even pack T-Bolt, and although the defensive sets are ass most will carry Toxic these days. Mega Gyarados always packs EQ. Manaphy can eat up a Steam Eruption, Tail Glow up, and can OHKO it with Energy Ball with just a little bit of prior damage. The only Water-types I'd even consider switching Volcanion in on are opposing Volc's (which is risky) and the Slowbros (which can potentially CM up predicting that too). Water Absorb is useful, yes, as it does prevent teams from mindlessly spamming Water moves and it can soft check a few threats, but it's definitely not something that pressures them to a point where they're useless until Volcanion is taken care of, because they all have tools to beat it. Its typing is good I'll give you that, and it can check some pretty useful things, mainly fat Grass-types, Steels, and a few offensive threats if its healthy enough, but again, checking a LOT of shit is a bit of an over exaggeration.

Last but not least, how does Volcanion compare at all to many of the OU staples found in A rank? Mega Medicham is one of the most threatening wallbreakers in the tier right now, and outside of Mega Sableye it has very little counterplay, and thanks to priority it can pose a threat to offense. Mega Lopunny destroys offense completely and has tools to work around its common counters such as Lando-T and stuff. Other things like Excadrill, Garchomp, Thundurus, and Ferrothorn are all very splashable OU staples. Volcanion is splashable on paper, but it still faces plenty of competition from many other Pokemon, mainly Keldeo, and it's not something people usually slap onto most teams because of its aftermentioned issues which most other Pokemon in A don't really have. Volcanion just seems to fit so much better in A- rank, with Pokemon such as Mega Pinsir or Mega Heracross which require a bit more support and have some pretty bad matchups, but can be very deadly. This to me, perfectly describes Volcanion, as it has some very strong matchups and can be a bitch to deal with when played correctly, but it definitely has some issues mainly versus more offensive builds and fat teams that pack Suicune. Besides there are many Pokemon in A- such as Mega Metagross and Mega Latias, which have far more usage in higher play at the moment. And going off that, please stop using the excuse that Volcanion is unexplored and that it should remain in A until we explore it. In fact, I think that's a reason to drop it, and if we find some "magical" set that makes it A worthy, than we can do so at that time. Quit using Hoopa-U as a supporting argument, because while Hoopa-U was heavily underrated when it first came out, Hoopa-U was far less linear because of its insane movepool and mixed capabilities, allowing it to run so many cool sets. Volcanion is very linear because of its barren movepool, and without Specs its biggest niche in blasting through fat shit is hurt quite a bit, and lets be honest 90% of the time it's just clicking Steam anyway. There's no way in hell that there's some magic move combo out there that will sky rocket its usage and make it Hoopa-U good.

Sorry for the book :S
 
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Gary2346 I just want to say, I wasn't saying your nomination didn't have any merit, and after reading what I said, I see how it can be seen as such. I wasn't even really commenting on Volcanion so much as I was speaking on the way this thread works, though it did express a small portion of my sentiments on it. I was simply pointing out the hivemindedness(?) that goes on here. Repeating the same argument 4-5 times doesn't do anything but reiterate what has already been stated, and often times it gets less and less elaborate and borderline becomes one liners sprinkled with a few buzz words, showing they aren't putting thought into it and just jumping on the "It should Rise!/It should drop!" gravy train. As far as my hoopa statement goes, I wasn't at all implying Volcanion will be broken to the level Hoopa was. I was more so leaning towards how people said "yea, but it's pursuit weak, slow, and has terrible defenses and defensive typing". Yes, all 'mons have negatives, outside of the blatantly broken ones, which is why it isn't sitting at S. The way I see it, Volcanion shouldn't be A- for the same reason MegaCham shouldn't be A+. MegaCham out performs a good chunk of the A sub rank, however, despite my initial judgement contradicting this, it is not suitable for A+, and I'm sure we can all agree on that now. Volcanion, is sort of in the same boat. It's not among the best 'mons in A, but it is quite a bit better than a good portion of the Pokemon in A-, I'd maybe even go as far as saying all of them, and as such it wouldn't make sense for it to reside in the same sub rank. In all honesty, I don't really care either way, despite not personally thinking it should be A-. I just wanted to point out a huge and on going theme in this thread. That, and I don't really intend to actually have a discussion about this just because of my lack on interest in ORAS right now.
 
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I do agree that bandwagoning is annoying because people are just restating what others have already said in their own words. Obviously I'm not saying that you can't agree with others, but there's no point in rewording everything they said unless you have something else to add that hasn't already been stated.

Now onto Volcanion. Moose if you read my post again I definitely didn't just list Volcanion's flaws, I made sure to point out as many positive traits as I could without derailing the purpose of my own posts. Let's be real, if I'm trying to argue for something to drop, why would focus so much on all of its positive traits when the purpose of my post is to prove why it needs to drop? Obviously I'm not going to completely ignore the positives, but it just wouldn't be practical to talk about them in detail.

Also, I'm not over exaggerating Volcanion's Stealth Rock weakness at all, because you're right, it's not enough to drop it. I'm not implying that Volcanion should drop because it's not a "perfect being". You need to understand why the SR weakness on Volcanion is significant, and it's not SR alone, it's the combination of that and its subpar Speed. Volcanion is a wallbreaker that thrives on free switch-ins and the ability to come in as much as possible to spam Steam Eruption, which has very little reliable switch-ins outside of Chansey and opposing Volcanion. SR severely limits this because it forces you to play a lot more aggressive to keep hazards off the field, as well as running a form of hazard removal so if SR do go up, it can continually come in. Now with that, outside of slower, fat shit, how much is Volcanion able to come in for free without being forced out pretty easily? Unlike most wallbreakers in the tier, there are still plenty of Pokemon that can easily threaten it out or just outright OHKO it, which it otherwise want to beat. Sure it has a great matchup versus slower teams that depend on fat Grass-types like Amoonguss to check Keldeo, but unlike Keldeo, Volcanion is just so damn vulnerable to being revenge killed. You have shit like faster Lando-T, Gliscor, Jolly Excadrill, Nidoking, offensive Heatran which has a very high chance to OHKO with Earth Power after SR, etc. And these are just Pokemon that most other wallbreakers in OU would want to outspeed, I didn't even mention the slew of other offensive Pokemon that threaten it out. Just because something hits hard as fuck and doesn't have reliable switch-ins doesn't mean that it's SR weakness or Speed isn't that much of an issue. If Volcanion was a bit faster or lacked a SR weakness, it would find many more opportunities to hole punch consistently, see something like Mega Heracross which is also slow but finds many more opportunities to come in because without a SR weakness, it can abuse its bulk. Volcanion is pretty fat too, but again, its bulk is heavily hindered by a massive hazard weakness so it can't really afford to take hits like Mega Hera can.

What I think is being over exaggerated however, is Volcanion's ability to check a ton of Pokemon because of its typing and Water Absorb. Water Absorb is a great ability, don't get me wrong, but please stop acting like it's giving Volcanion a semi-reliable means of recovery, when most of the Water-types found in the tier have an easy way to get around Volcanion's ability. On top of that, it depends too much on Hidden Power to 2HKO them, or Steam Eruption burns. It just doesn't have a very consistent option to threaten them back. Lets look at all the most popular Water-types at the moment. Keldeo has Secret Sword which always 2HKOes it Specs or not, and the only time it can safely come in on it, is if it's locked into a Water-type move. Azumarill is similar because CB Play Rough does so much to it as well. Suicune just stalls it out completely and uses it as set up fodder, and with Roar it will just phaze it out. Slowking and Mega Latias can eat up a Steam Eruption and proceed to set up CM on it. Quagsire has EQ, so it has to be very sure it's switching into a Scald. Rotom-W can eat up a Steam and do close to 70% back with Volt Switch. Offensive Starmie just destroys it with Psychic on the switch and some even pack T-Bolt, and although the defensive sets are ass most will carry Toxic these days. Mega Gyarados always packs EQ. Manaphy can eat up a Steam Eruption, Tail Glow up, and can OHKO it with Energy Ball with just a little bit of prior damage. The only Water-types I'd even consider switching Volcanion in on are opposing Volc's (which is risky) and the Slowbros (which can potentially CM up predicting that too). Water Absorb is useful, yes, as it does prevent teams from mindlessly spamming Water moves and it can soft check a few threats, but it's definitely not something that pressures them to a point where they're useless until Volcanion is taken care of, because they all have tools to beat it. Its typing is good I'll give you that, and it can check some pretty useful things, mainly fat Grass-types, Steels, and a few offensive threats if its healthy enough, but again, checking a LOT of shit is a bit of an over exaggeration.

Last but not least, how does Volcanion compare at all to many of the OU staples found in A rank? Mega Medicham is one of the most threatening wallbreakers in the tier right now, and outside of Mega Sableye it has very little counterplay, and thanks to priority it can pose a threat to offense. Mega Lopunny destroys offense completely and has tools to work around its common counters such as Lando-T and stuff. Other things like Excadrill, Garchomp, Thundurus, and Ferrothorn are all very splashable OU staples. Volcanion is splashable on paper, but it still faces plenty of competition from many other Pokemon, mainly Keldeo, and it's not something people usually slap onto most teams because of its aftermentioned issues which most other Pokemon in A don't really have. Volcanion just seems to fit so much better in A- rank, with Pokemon such as Mega Pinsir or Mega Heracross which require a bit more support and have some pretty bad matchups, but can be very deadly. This to me, perfectly describes Volcanion, as it has some very strong matchups and can be a bitch to deal with when played correctly, but it definitely has some issues mainly versus more offensive builds and fat teams that pack Suicune. Besides there are many Pokemon in A- such as Mega Metagross and Mega Latias, which have far more usage in higher play at the moment. And going off that, please stop using the excuse that Volcanion is unexplored and that it should remain in A until we explore it. In fact, I think that's a reason to drop it, and if we find some "magical" set that makes it A worthy, than we can do so at that time. Quit using Hoopa-U as a supporting argument, because while Hoopa-U was heavily underrated when it first came out, Hoopa-U was far less linear because of its insane movepool and mixed capabilities, allowing it to run so many cool sets. Volcanion is very linear because of its barren movepool, and without Specs its biggest niche in blasting through fat shit is hurt quite a bit, and lets be honest 90% of the time it's just clicking Steam anyway. There's no way in hell that there's some magic move combo out there that will sky rocket its usage and make it Hoopa-U good.

Sorry for the book :S



All of the mons you listed can revenge kill Volcanion, but certainly none of them are coming in on it. The only time they would ever be able to safely switch in is if Volcanion killed something or they were already in. Otherwise Volcanion is switching out and no kill for that mon.

Volcanion does not need speed. It comes in, forces something out, and then dents whatever comes in. It rarely will ever be staying in more than one turn, unless it is 1v1ing a mon it can 1v1. Yes this does mean Volcanion struggles with stealth rocks but thats why its A and not A+ or S. It need support but it is a great mon.
 
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AM

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Volcanion functions as a much better early /mid game mon anyways. This is due to its ability to threaten the majority of hazard setters in the tier except for garchomp and is still really good at punching holes. I find it works better on teams that use cores to overload each others checks such as volcanion + keldeo to put lots of pressure on latios. I do agree with gary that volcanions defensive merits kind of suck and that being SR weak is kind of a problem but as I mentioned previously chances are you're gonna throw volcanion out early, put some dents with specs steam eruption or coverage and by the time SR and other factors take its toll its gonna have already done its job. Volcanion being in A I also think is a good representation of not using really slow teams that volcanion can turn into a liability. In regards to garys point about the other A's being more prolific in the tier, and man Im already dreading saying this being against this before, but m-medicham can probably be considered for going up a rank at this point. A lot of its defensive checks are really crappy right now or in the case of slowbro liable to the thunderpunch variants. Its a pretty significant archetype that youll see a good amount around the 1800 range and up. I guess its a really debatable topic of discussion seeing as how youre putting it above some other titans like lopunny and charx but I do think medicham is a relatively important threat you need to take into account at s much higher level than just most of the A rank mons these days.
 

Infernal

Banned deucer.
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Jirachi to A

I feel like the utility Jira brings to the teams it's used on is worthy of A. Consider the bulky offensive archetypes running around everywhere. Jira is one of the main Pokemon these teams use to keep top threats like Mega Diancie, Latios, and so on, in check. Jira usually performs this role by going special defensive (referring to SR, Healing Wish, Iron Head, and U-turn), or by packing a Scarf. Between providing rocks, revenge killing, pivoting, and keeping some of the top threats in the metagame in check, Jira is supporting a team in really big ways.

Consider the well known Mega Cham build from the sample teams thread here. Jira is the main thing keeping this team from being ran over by Pokemon like Mega Diancie and Latios, and I feel like this is true for the many other builds using a similar structure nowadays. Take a look through the WCoP Replays thread and you'll see Jira is the Pokemon keeping various bulky offensive teams from kneeling over versus the threats mentioned earlier, with these four replays taken from a random group serving as further examples: #1, #2, #3, #4. Jira compresses many roles for these teams and pairs well with many breakers used on bulky offense, examples being Terrak, Mega Hera, and Thund-I. These Pokemon and many other offensive threats are all benefiting from having Jira as a partner to 1. cover their weaknesses via resistances, 2. bring them in for free via U-turn, and 3. provide them with a possible second chance to do their thing thanks to Heal Wish.

Although I won't pretend Jira is as threatening as Pokemon like Mega Cham and Weavile sitting in A, I do believe its utility is comparable to other Pokemon in the same rank, like Ferro. A Pokemon's ability to nicely 'glue together' a team has been held in high regard in these rankings, and Jira does this on a high level for bulky offense. Although other Steel types in the tier can also check Pokemon like Latios, Mega Diancie, and Mega Gard, Jira doesn't fear the coverage they can run as much as other Pokemon like Ferro and company do. I think this is a big advantage Jira has over other Steel types in the tier and plays a big role in its ability to perform its role well/consistently.

In sum, I think Jira is worth considering for 'A' based on the sheer utility it's providing for the most popular play style in this metagame. It's a very common and effective way for bulky offense to piece things together without being passive. Checking Fairy types and threats like Latios is huge in OU, and Jira performs this role on a level worthy of 'A' while supporting a team in a few other ways with its sets (SR, revenge killing, and so on). In a metagame where you're always strapped for slots, Jira's role compression/threat coverage becomes invaluable. Although minor compared to its utility, a 60% chance to flinch with its STAB isn't something people don't consider as threatening and is a reason you hear some jokingly say a game is never over when a Jira is still alive.
 
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HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Just gonna post here to say that i definitely agree with megacham rising to A+. Its literally retarded how good this thing is. The boltbeam set 100% invalidates defensive teams lacking mega sableye, physdef mew, cresselia, or cofagrigus (edit: whoops reuniclus too). Of those four only two are even marginally good and one takes up the mega slot while the other is not very splashable. Even then both these mons are susceptible to being frozen by ice punch, meaning they can be haxed by with enough persistence on the part of megacham. Unlike other wallbreakers in A and A-, mega medi isnt slow nor is it weak to hazards nor easily walled by common mons. In additon, this is a wallbreaker with incredible leverage against the best the best playstyle as well. Dut to medi synergyzing incredibly well with the metagame's best momentum generators like rotom-w and tornadus-t, it is able to come in safely on switchins into the given pivot by bulky offense staples like rotom-w and amoonguss, then giving medi the chance to severely dent whatever tries to switch into it. Every time medi comes in youre basically forced into this "oh shit, what can i fodder to this" mind game. Medi is also unlike most other wallbreakers in the tier in that you very rarely have to play mind games choosing which move to pick. You can simply click high jump kick and know youre going to dent anything that comes in assuming your opponent isnt packing a ghost type (which is rare in ou). It does appreciate prediction when being used, but the amount of work medi can put in just by spamming fake out and high jump kick is absolutely absurd. Medicham is also very versatile in what it runs. While in my opinion adamant boltbeam is the best set overall, bullet punch and zenbutt both have their uses in picking off weakened faster foes and preventing diancie from revenge killing you, as well as improving medicham's matchups against things like amoonguss and clefable. It may not have as much defensive utility or splashablility as the other mons in A+, but the way it absolutely devistates nearly everything besides hyper offense is really why I cant see it in A anymore. Its an incredible threat, and very hard to properly prepare for. The way it takes advantage of certain mons (bulky offense pivots like defensive lando, ferrothorn, and rotom-w for clarification) that are especially common in the present metagame and uses this to essentially consistently turn your opponent's defensive cores into a liability is what i see as the reason mega medicham should be in A+ along with the metagame's two other best megas.

(apologies if the wording is confusing lol i hope this makes sense though)
 
Just gonna post here to say that i definitely agree with megacham rising to A+. Its literally retarded how good this thing is. The boltbeam set 100% invalidates defensive teams lacking mega sableye, physdef mew, cresselia, or cofagrigus (edit: whoops reuniclus too). Of those four only two are even marginally good and one takes up the mega slot while the other is not very splashable. Even then both these mons are susceptible to being frozen by ice punch, meaning they can be haxed by with enough persistence on the part of megacham. Unlike other wallbreakers in A and A-, mega medi isnt slow nor is it weak to hazards nor easily walled by common mons. In additon, this is a wallbreaker with incredible leverage against the best the best playstyle as well. Dut to medi synergyzing incredibly well with the metagame's best momentum generators like rotom-w and tornadus-t, it is able to come in safely on switchins into the given pivot by bulky offense staples like rotom-w and amoonguss, then giving medi the chance to severely dent whatever tries to switch into it. Every time medi comes in youre basically forced into this "oh shit, what can i fodder to this" mind game. Medi is also unlike most other wallbreakers in the tier in that you very rarely have to play mind games choosing which move to pick. You can simply click high jump kick and know youre going to dent anything that comes in assuming your opponent isnt packing a ghost type (which is rare in ou). It does appreciate prediction when being used, but the amount of work medi can put in just by spamming fake out and high jump kick is absolutely absurd. Medicham is also very versatile in what it runs. While in my opinion adamant boltbeam is the best set overall, bullet punch and zenbutt both have their uses in picking off weakened faster foes and preventing diancie from revenge killing you, as well as improving medicham's matchups against things like amoonguss and clefable. It may not have as much defensive utility or splashablility as the other mons in A+, but the way it absolutely devistates nearly everything besides hyper offense is really why I cant see it in A anymore. Its an incredible threat, and very hard to properly prepare for. The way it takes advantage of certain mons (bulky offense pivots like defensive lando, ferrothorn, and rotom-w for clarification) that are especially common in the present metagame and uses this to essentially consistently turn your opponent's defensive cores into a liability is what i see as the reason mega medicham should be in A+ along with the metagame's two other best megas.

(apologies if the wording is confusing lol i hope this makes sense though)
This is long. There is a tl;dr if you get bored.

I reckon that Medicham is sitting in A because it looks ridiculous its overall ability isn't overwhelming enough.

Ir is not durable at all, requiring backup from pivots if it wishes to avoid a pounding switching in. While it does benefit from this backup, the same can be said for combatants residing in the A+ tier (e.g. Diancie, Keldeo, Latios), who are able to switch in on their own in some scenarios (e.g. on Flyers or Fire-types).

That said, once it does enter the fray in good health, anything slower will be in a world of hurt, no questions asked (well, except cancer mons like Cresselia). However, Medicham's Speed is a bit of an issue - 100 Speed helps it outrun common walls, but this won't save it from the faster enemies Medicham will be facing (Diancie notwithstanding), and they are scattered all over the tier. This normally isn't an issue, as Medicham is primarily a wallsmasher, but it does make it falter versus enemy Balance, which, along with Stall, currently stand as the two dominant playsyles. Medicham's forms of priority are Bullet Punch and Fake Out, which offer limited coverage, have a mere 40 power, and hit only specific targets. (Fun fact: If Diancie is at full health and nabs a +1 Def boost, it can survive a non-crit Bullet Punch. It saved my life once.)

And while we're on the subject of playstyle, Medicham does have some problems versus the three playstyles - Balance, HO, and Stall. HO doesn't overly care, as they can outrun Medicham without too many issues. Stall has their Mega Sableye / Slowbro / Altaria to withstand Medicham's might, and Mega Sableye is infesting OU everywhere - not to mention that Skarmory can revenge slay Medicham if situations are dire. Balance also have mons that outrun Medicham (usually).

All of those are its cons, but its pros are not easily disregarded. Or rather, it has only one pro: Its immense strength. This one pro is a big deal, as it is much more difficult to deal with if its checks are out of the way.

However, this begs the question: is raw power alone enough to merit a rise? Factoring abilities, Medicham has the second highest attack stat in existence. However, sometimes you don't need all that power. Sometimes you can get by with lesser Attack. I can do a number on Stall with a Stallbreaker - I don't need Medicham for that. I can do a number on Balance or HO with an anti-offense mon or something similar - I don't need Medicham for that.

Other Megas have enough power to get by - lesser, yes, but still enough -, but have other utility going for them - Scizor has fatness, for example, in addition to Technician Bullet Punch.

If we are to give Medicham a rise, we should ask ourselves: does Medicham contribute greatly to the team it is on? All Medicham does is rip faces, and while that is excellent, it has some very real flaws that keep it in check. Mons in A+ tend to bring a lot to the table - Latios, for example, has the ability to check specific enemies, Defog, and smack enemies real hard, in addition to having coverage to get past its checks, plus decent Speed. Medicham in comparison has good coverage, unrivaled power...and that's really about it. Which is nice until you ask yourself: is all this power really needed?

Some teams do need all that power. In which case Medicham makes a great addition to the team. Other teams, however, don't, and instead demand utility. Considering that the majority of teams fit the latter case, I don't agree with rising Medicham.

And this is isn't considering the usual stuff like opportunity cost, splashibility, or defensive typing.

I am aware you said

"It may not have as much defensive utility or splashablility as the other mons in A+, but the way it absolutely devistates nearly everything besides hyper offense is really why I cant see it in A anymore. Its an incredible threat, and very hard to properly prepare for."

I feel this is an overstatement, as it is manageable to the point where I don't even need to try - something as simple as Keldeo ot Latios can revenge it, for example. If you're unprepared, then that's bad teambuilding. Plus, you can't simply shrug off the fact that it isn't splashable or defensive - those MUST be considered if you're serious about getting Medicham into A+.

It is a frightening enemy, don't get me wrong, but it's one that has more bark than bite IMO. A is extremely generous, I think - A+, I disagree with.

Tl;dr:
- Immense power warrants an A rank
- Lack of utility outside of raw power is worthy of debate, especially considering that not all teams benefit from such high power - they can get by with lower power.
- Lacking defenses and 100 Speed hinder its matchups, can't really switch in on its own
- More or less unable to get past checks (e.g. Mega Slowbro/Sableye), but that's normal; Mega Sableye infesting the OU tier doesn't help at all
- Splashability and stuff is an issue


And this is a bit off topic, but why is Diancie sitting in A+? Its movepool is as barren as the desert, it has crap pre-Mega Speed, it has to use Protect, and it has to go mixed, not to mention fragility and its Speed in Mega form - 110 is decent, but it's easy to get past, which isn't good news for a fragile Pokemon. Plus its typing leaves it with mediocre-at-best defensive value and a dual STAB that any fat Steel, Water, or Grass can take. Its offensive stats may seem high, but kinda underwhelming, especially when you need to go mixed and only OHKOs on exceptionally frail enemies or if it's super effective. Why is it in A+?
 
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Okay, I'm going to touch fairly briefly on both 'mons that Spoons brought up because I don't think either are being fairly represented in his post.

Mega Medicham's rise has largely been based on its role in completely dismantling the bulky offense teams and balances that you mention are the "best stops" to it. Of course it's not a tank that takes lots of hits - we've had other powerful wallbreakers like Hoopa and Manaphy that tore apart typical team archetypes in their times, both of which were A+/S rank mons before while not being great switchins for, well, many threats, off hand Manaphy only really comes in on Landorus / Heatran on a majority of teams without being punished. Using VoltTurn momentum based cores to bring Medicham in really isn't much of a chore because the premier abusers of that strategy, Landorus-T and Rotom-W, are also both great in the current metagame because they soft-check so many common threats and force status and switches routinely. Medicham might be slowish and forced out by say, Tornadus, Latios, Weavile, Keldeo, and Mega Lopunny in one on one scenarios, but if it comes in against any of a team's typical pivots or utility mons, it's going to be getting a kill for sure. Balances and BO's will always have some slow 'mon that Medicham can come in and abuse - and in most cases, it's going to be a 'mon that you have to keep around, so you're going to be picking something to sacrifice each time. Say the Medicham user just slow U-turns into Medicham or otherwise gets Medicham in on a Heatran, Landorus, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, marginally weakened Mega Scizor, Azumarill, or other 'mon slower than it. One of HJK / Ice Punch / Thunder Punch will have 2HKO potential on every single mon, if not OHKO, and unless you manage to pivot perfectly around resistances, you're going to be in a terrible spot. Never mind that a Medicham user can just predict which 'mon you're most likely to go into, and Latios / Tornadus just die to HJK after rocks. Clefable is also commonly forced to run Bold for tanking HJK, and even then Zen Headbutt isn't that bad of an option.

I also think that the point of Mega Slowbro / Sableye walling Mega Medicham is exaggerated in its importance. Yes, they literally both do. In the case of the former, however, you force Slowbro to Mega to effectively wall Medicham and lose Regenerator which it really, really wants to have in the early to mid game. Effective Medicham builds also commonly have Rotom-W to Will-O-Wisp Slowbro and prevent it from tanking its hits well at all after Rocks and burn. The latter, Sableye, has been massively declining in usage aside from hard stall, largely for reasons of its required team support being so massive and Stealth Rock Clefable often meaning that you can't even keep Stealth Rock off the field at all.

On the point of Diancie, it's just an incredibly tough 'mon to switch in on that benefits immensely from good offensive STABs. Magnezone support lets it run physically inclined EVs + STABs + Earth Power, which is walled by a pretty short list of 'mons, and HP Fire still lets you take on Ferrothorn and Skarmory on the switch-in if you opt away from Magnezone. 2HKOing specially defensive Clefable and Amoonguss on the switch in is pretty big as is outspeeding and forcing out Mega Latias (since it doesn't trade well enough and has to win ties), Keldeo, Terrakion, most of the base 100 speed tier including both Zards, weakened Manaphy, Mega Medicham that don't have Bullet Punch (a lot), and Mega Gardevoir + stuff below those speed tiers. What Waters are tanking its hits, exactly? Rotom-W / Keldeo / Azu / Manaphy / Slowbro are not coming in without being 2HKO'd realistically. The only fat Grass-type that I can name that's tanking physical Diancie is probably Assault Vest Tangrowth. Helmet Tangrowth is going to roll to two Moonblasts, and the same applies to Amoonguss and offensive Mega Venusaur to Diamond Storm. So yeah, realistically there's really not that much to be tanking its hits with Magnezone support.
 
Okay, I'm going to touch fairly briefly on both 'mons that Spoons brought up because I don't think either are being fairly represented in his post.

Mega Medicham's rise has largely been based on its role in completely dismantling the bulky offense teams and balances that you mention are the "best stops" to it.
...
I also think that the point of Mega Slowbro / Sableye walling Mega Medicham is exaggerated in its importance. Yes, they literally both do. In the case of the former, however, you force Slowbro to Mega to effectively wall Medicham and lose Regenerator which it really, really wants to have in the early to mid game. Effective Medicham builds also commonly have Rotom-W to Will-O-Wisp Slowbro and prevent it from tanking its hits well at all after Rocks and burn. The latter, Sableye, has been massively declining in usage aside from hard stall, largely for reasons of its required team support being so massive and Stealth Rock Clefable often meaning that you can't even keep Stealth Rock off the field at all.
Firstly, I don't recall ever declaring Balance to be the "best stop" to Medicham. Just saying.

Secondly, I am aware of what Medicham can and cannot do. It is very apparent that blood WILL be shed if Medicham is faster than the foe (and doesn't miss its attack). What I was trying to say, though, was that if Medicham is to rise to A+, I think there needs to be a reason other than sheer power. Medicham does have the second highest Attack stat in the universe (factoring abilities), but is this power alone enough to warrant a rise? Most teams don't need this or overly benefit from it, and can get by with lesser power, and Medicham doesn't bring much to the table other than its raw power. As stated in my post, I can dismantle Stall without Medicham with the aid of a Stallbreaker, and I can do a number on Balance without Medicham with the aid of an anti-Offense mon. The fact that these Stallbreakers or anti-offense mons are (usually) more splashable and can fulfill multiple roles isn't good news for Medicham. Medicham's one-dimensionality doesn't pair well with the fact that a) some people don't need all that power, b) the team slot could be used for someone that provides more utility, and c) it has 100 Speed and meh bulk.

To that end, I don't feel as if I "exaggerated" Mega Slowbro / Sableye standing in Medicham's way. I tried to make it merely a side point in my overall post.

I thought the tl;dr in my post made it clear what I was emphasizing and what my overall point was. I must have slipped up somewhere if it caused you to think I declared Balance to be its "best stop.".

But your insight in the last paragraph was very helpful, and I thank you for that.

EDIT: Though I will add that a physically inclined EV spread on Amoonguss avoids 2HKO from Diamond Shturm, and Suicune dodges the 2HKO from Moonblast and Diamond Storm regardless of Diancie's spread. Point taken however.

Don't get me wrong, Medicham is frightening and some teams do benefit immensely from its raw power. This isn't to say Medicham is useless. That's why it warrants an A rank right now. But I think A+ is a little too high, as sometimes you don't need all this power and you want utility instead.
 
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