Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[Gary]

A ---> A-

Okay its been a while since anyone has really talked about Volcanion after its initial hype, and now that the meta has had enough time to adapt to it, I think Volcanion would fit better in A-. It's strong, pretty fat, and combined with its ability it has a decent amount of defensive utility which allows it to softcheck some cool stuff like Specs Keldeo locked into Scald or Hydro, Azumarill, Heatran, Mega Scizor, Mega Sableye, and Jirachi, as well as a semi-decent check to Clefable. While on paper it has the right qualities to make it a very splashable Pokemon, it's been proven over time that's not really the case. While it does have a lot of cool utility offensively and great defensive synergy, its weakness to rocks is a huge issue for a Pokemon that would otherwise benefit from smart double switching or pivoting to spam Steam Eruption which is very difficult to switch into already, and like Keldeo it would be able to heavily punish fat teams and apply a lot of pressure. But with its weakness to hazards on top of its lackluster Speed for a wallbreaker, it's hard for it to not only come in safely, but to apply a lot of pressure when its outsped by most of the metagame. Its bulk makes up for it a little bit, as not much can OHKO it when it's healthy outside of strong super effective hits, but it gets worn down very quickly. It's an interesting Pokemon with a very unique typing and a good ability to abuse it, but it still faces stiff competition from other wallbreakers, namely Keldeo, and Heatran as a Fire-type, and we all know how difficult it is to slap Fire-types on your team without stacking a ton of weaknesses, but Heatran is different.

I agree with the post made by bludz in the metagame thread about how Volcanion is pretty unexplored and it could very well be a hidden gem, but unlike Hoopa-U it's not broken as shit, and because of its movepool it's very linear. Its defensive set is complete ass, and the resist berries, while decent lures, heavily take away from its wallbreaking potential. Leftovers gives it much needed passive recovery but it's still on the weaker side, while Scarf is too slow to revenge anything. Specs is by far its best set atm, so as much as it's pretty "unexplored", there's not much you can really do with it. It's a great Pokemon that lots of teams tend to be weak to because it punishes most teams with only semi-reliable Keldeo switch-ins like Latios or Slowbro, as well as builds that depend on Amoonguss or other fat Grass-types as their Keldeo switch-in, and Slowbro is practically 2HKOed by Steam Eruption. The problem is, Keldeo is still so much more consistent despite being better prepared for because of its better matchup versus faster teams and resistance to rocks which gives it more opportunities to spam STABs and it can actually check a decent amount of Pokemon, whereas Volcanion is strictly used as a wallbreaker/holepuncher for the most part. I don't think dropping it any further than A- is reasonable as of now just because it's still just too early to properly judge its exact viability when its just not used that much right now, and that doesn't mean it's bad it just means people are just uncomfortable using it due to a lack of overall knowledge or experience with it, whereas Keldeo/Heatran/other wallbreakers are just so much easier to use. Besides, most of the shit in A are metagame staples that are far more splashable atm, minus maybe Mega Sableye, so Volcanion just looks awkward there and fits better with stuff like Mega Pinsir or Zard-Y which are very solid options but aren't splashable or require decent amounts of support.

 

[Tramuntana]

Re-Posting the senselesly deleted post:

Bisharp up to A
Bisharp is a big threat and can sweep almost everytime when the opponents team is lowered, because intimidate pokemon cant check it becomes even a more bigger threat and it can also run things like Scarf or AV Pursuit to trap latis and other mons like that. It is also a counter to Clefable and other fairy type what can help.

I disagree.

The SD set can be easily stopped with something with access to Will-O-Wisp and is hard to actually give Bisharp a good switch-in. Even resisted Draco Meteors from the lati twins he is supposed to check will do a ton. Assault Vest and Scarf completely suck on Bisharp. When running those items on a Pursuit user, you are supposed to be using Tyranitar, man. Most Clefables carry anti-steel coverage or Thunder Wave that will eliminate Bisharp from play.

bludz edit: removed off topic portion of this post. If you have an issue with the moderation you can speak to us but this is not the place to air grievances about an admitted mistake

 

[juanelamo1000]

I am not talking about a suspect, but isn't thundy kinda strong? He has a fantastic speed tie, outspeeding most of the OU. Nobody bar raikou assault vest can switch in safely due to it's movepool, and for all that people that say that weavile and latis can counter him, I agree, but before dying thundy cripples them with a thunder wave for the rest of the battle. Thundy has the same problem as greninja had, he can only learn 4 moves, but till you discover them, half of your team has fainted. Focus blast for excadrill and ttar, grass knot for swampert and quagsire, hidden power ice for dragons, thunderbolt as an stab move. Also there are variants of thundurus with nasty plot and mixed/phisical sets.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 380-447 (111.4 - 131%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 471-554 (130.4 - 153.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 624-738 (158.3 - 187.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 333-395 (103 - 122.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (after broken multiscale)
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 395-468 (103.4 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 191-226 (79.2 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So I must say:
Thundurus-i A- -> S at least

 

[HailFall]

Hi! I see what you're saying, but I have to disagree. Thundy is incredibly frail and struggles to find switching opportunities, weak to sr, easily worn down, and can't carry all its coverage moves at once. It's definitely a very dangerous offensive threat, and that's why I think it should rise to A, but you can't ignore all its other negative attributes when ranking it. It's not nearly as metagame defining as stuff like clef which counters half the metagame and can even bullshit its way past supposed checks like Heatran with thunder wave. "It has no garunteed switch ins" doesn't mean much of anything in and of itself. Look at hoopa-c: an incredibly potent wallbreaker cursed by slow speed and an extreme weakness to common stuff like pursuit trapping, so it's ranked very low. I'm not saying thundy faces as many problems as hoopa, but it has solid enough counterplay to make it not something I consider an S rank mon.

 

[squidlick]

Maybe if Thundy were being suggested for A I could possibly get behind it but as it stands it's a rocks weak glass cannon that can provide some support depending on the set. For something to be S these days it has to be at least on par with what Clefable, the only S ranked mon, can do(wincon, pivot, immunity to all passive damage, status absorber and spreader, bulky sweeper, wall, and often some of these simultaneously), which Thundurus really can't boast.

On an offensive level Thundurus is hardly comparable to Greninja's more ban worthy traits, and I don't think that requires explanation(never mind it's an incredibly flawed comparison).

 

[AM]

No offense or snarkiness intended but I dont see how Thundurus to S is a serious nom that will inevitably turn into 10 people saying the same redundant details everyone should know by now for the next two pages. At least spare us the headache on this one.

 

[HailFall]

B+ -> B
I think ppl overhyped nidoking a bit tbh like its not a c rank mon by any means but after using it a bit recently i really am not super impressed and i have to say i feel B+ is a bit too high. It 2hkoes nearly everything but chansey yeah but its poor defesnses mean it gets forced out by so many common mons and every time its out there are these constant mind games you have to play with which move to pick. Its not a weak mon but its very reliant on coverage due to its stab combo being not that great. Both of its stab moves do absolutely nothing to a common type (birds and steels), both of which are on almost every team. This means youre forced to rely on flamethrower and ice beam to try and garuntee you hit at least something but both of these are honestly really weak without stab boost and not doing much on neutral hits to at least somewhat bulky mons. Like idk sorry if this seems like rambling buy my main point is that youre constantly having to play these irritating guessing games and if you always just attack whats in front of you youre going to be easily played around, but if you mispredict and go for a sludge wave on something like lando youre probably going to die. Nido is just so easily taken advantage of that i really dont feel it fits in very well with stuff like kyube, tangrowth, chansey, and latias.

 

[Vert]

i'm just going to break this post into parts, because addressing this all at once would make this post disorganized and all over the place

B+ -> B
I think ppl overhyped nidoking a bit tbh like its not a c rank mon by any means but after using it a bit recently i really am not super impressed and i have to say i feel B+ is a bit too high. It 2hkoes nearly everything but chansey yeah but its poor defesnses mean it gets forced out by so many common mons and every time its out there are these constant mind games you have to play with which move to pick.

while nidoking is forced out by a lot of common 'mons, it certainly checks a bunch of threats on offense despite its defenses. i.e. mega manectric, azumarill, landorus-t, breloom, heatran, etc. basically, its typing kind of makes up for its struggles against offense. it's already doing work against offense, but its use against balance is the reason its b+ rank

Its not a weak mon but its very reliant on coverage due to its stab combo being not that great. Both of its stab moves do absolutely nothing to a common type (birds and steels), both of which are on almost every team.

you lost me here bro, nidoking's stab combo isn't great? lol

This means youre forced to rely on flamethrower and ice beam to try and garuntee you hit at least something but both of these are honestly really weak without stab boost and not doing much on neutral hits to at least somewhat bulky mons.

that's why you are supposed to use your coverage to only hit super effective targets

Like idk sorry if this seems like rambling buy my main point is that youre constantly having to play these irritating guessing games and if you always just attack whats in front of you youre going to be easily played around, but if you mispredict and go for a sludge wave on something like lando youre probably going to die. Nido is just so easily taken advantage of that i really dont feel it fits in very well with stuff like kyube, tangrowth, chansey, and latias.

attacking what is in front of you isn't a bad thing. if anything you should be predicting when the opponent can't touch you back like when you are in against a clefable or non earth power heatran. i would never recommend sludge waving a landorus-t in any age. too much risk unless you know your opponent has to switch or he loses to zardx if he lets it die.

if it was supposed to drop, it wouldn't be for the points you just made

 

[HailFall]

while nidoking is forced out by a lot of common 'mons, it certainly checks a bunch of threats on offense despite its defenses. i.e. mega manectric, azumarill, landorus-t, breloom, heatran, etc. basically, its typing kind of makes up for its struggles against offense. it's already doing work against offense, but its use against balance is the reason its b+ rank

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Nidoking: 170-202 (56.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 296-350 (97.6 - 115.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Nidoking: 440-518 (145.2 - 170.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

... what? it needs a free switch to get in in the first place and even then takes an ass ton from any hit. def not what i consider a check. Like i guess if azu is locked into waterfall or lando is locked into se/is a slower variant, but that means youve already pivoted nido in with something that can take a hit regardless, so why not just beat them with that...? Mega manectric just wins if it predicts the switchin and hp ices. Im really not sure how this is even a check to half the things you listed. As for balance matchup, balance doesnt like to switch in but typically has a breaker capable of dealing with it. Nido is also kind of shit against fatter teams running chansey or slowking, so theres that too. All nido is is offense. It provides minimal defensive synergy unlike other wallbreakers in b+ like kyube while also having several other problems i outlined previously.

you lost me here bro, nidoking's stab combo isn't great? lol

i mean the types are complimentary in some ways but i dont really think its "great"

that's why you are supposed to use your coverage to only hit super effective targets

im talking about the way that nido doesnt have any move it can just throw out when its not sure whats coming in, because basically every team has a switchin to each of its moves that can beat nido after coming in safely. (steels/grounds for sludge wave, flying types for ep, waters for flamethrower/ice beam). Nido really wishes it had a strong move that secures neutral coverage for it that it can just throw out because the guessing games when using it are really headache inducing.

attacking what is in front of you isn't a bad thing. if anything you should be predicting when the opponent can't touch you back like when you are in against a clefable or non earth power heatran. i would never recommend sludge waving a landorus-t in any age. too much risk unless you know your opponent has to switch or he loses to zardx if he lets it die.

except if you act predictably and always attack whats right in front of you your nido is basically accomplishing nothing because your opponent will just switch into whatever eats the hit nido is about to dish out.

Not saying nido is a bad mon but i really think B+ is just overselling it considering the other things in that rank that are at least, imo, better like kyube, hippowdon, and suicune for example.

 

[Vert]

All nido is is offense

what????

i'm not going to bother replying to every part of your "counter-argument" because anyone who knows this game will know half of your post is just pure wrong like when you implied kyurem-b provides more defensive synergy than nidoking (zzz) and most notably the second to last sentence in your post. that line is so damn wrong, it's just blasphemous to even think you have used nidoking / have played against a competent user of one. i, i simply cannot put how wrong that line is into words lol

but i will reply to the rest of your post. a check is something that can revenge kill something assuming its a decent amount of health. i don't care if it's not your definition of a check. it's the definition of check so deal with it. nidoking can check electrics

and what is the point of those other two calcs? please don't act like i'm an idiot. i know landorus-t's earthquake and azumarill's banded aqua jet can ohko nidoking ._.

im talking about the way that nido doesnt have any move it can just throw out when its not sure whats coming in, because basically every team has a switchin to each of its moves that can beat nido after coming in safely. (steels/grounds for sludge wave, flying types for ep, waters for flamethrower/ice beam). Nido really wishes it had a strong move that secures neutral coverage for it that it can just throw out because the guessing games when using it are really headache inducing.

lmao dude, if you really think that this will happen in a game where someone will repeatedly switch into something faster through immunities and resistances which is already hard enough due to guessing games, AND (emphasis on the word "and") gain more from those series of plays than the nidoking user did, then this is another line i have no words for lol

care to find a couple of replays where nidoking became deadweight because the opponent outplayed the shit out of nidoking every time it came in?

this is not early xy my friend, and slowking already barely avoids a 2hko from wave after rocks (w/ no residuals btw). so no, nidoking is not shit against slowking

nidoking is a pokemon that completely destroys common balance teams while gaining free switch-ins to things like clefable and skarmory to wreck havoc. it's easily one of the most underrated threats in b+ and doesn't belong in the same breathe as b rank 'mons like dnite for example. b+ is not overselling it. nidoking is good.

and chansey doesn't belong in this argument, just fyi

 

[Indigo Plateau]

All nido is is offense. It provides minimal defensive synergy unlike other wallbreakers in b+ like kyube while also having several other problems i outlined previously.


i mean the types are complimentary in some ways but i dont really think its "great"

im talking about the way that nido doesnt have any move it can just throw out when its not sure whats coming in, because basically every team has a switchin to each of its moves that can beat nido after coming in safely. (steels/grounds for sludge wave, flying types for ep, waters for flamethrower/ice beam). Nido really wishes it had a strong move that secures neutral coverage for it that it can just throw out because the guessing games when using it are really headache inducing.

except if you act predictably and always attack whats right in front of you your nido is basically accomplishing nothing because your opponent will just switch into whatever eats the hit nido is about to dish out.

I've been using Nido more lately on MLati builds and Mega Zor balance builds, so I'm just gonna gonna point out the flaws that vertex didn't just in case (he didn't need to bc they're wrong).

Don't know how you think KyuB has better defensive synergy than Nido, lol. Ice is the worst defensive typing, and it doesn't help that it's additionally weak to dragons and fairy bc of its dragon typing which are very common. Taking 25% from rocks also holds KyuB back a lot as if you're running LO you lose more HP by the turn and if you're choice locked it means either taking hazards again or trying not to lose momentum for hazard removal. Being immune to Toxic + Twave and not suffering from burn is also huge. Admittedly, Nidoking has trouble switching in too, but no one said it's supposed to have amazing defensive synergy to be good, and there's no way it has worst than KyuB.

Not sure what other problems you outlined that were actual problems. Its dual stabs are great - having EP to hit everything but levitate and sure, some flying types (torn-t/talon? what other relevant flying type is switching in lol) and then sludge wave for everything but steels (including the things EP can't hit), who nido wrecks regardless (plus steel is the best defensive typing in the game) is amazing, so not sure how this is "complimentary in some ways". Can't really think of a lot of common OU mons who don't take a ton of damage from one of Nido's stabs.

I'm not sure if you've used Nido at all as when I use it, deciding what move to use is never headache inducing. You also said that basically every team has a switch in to one of its moves that can beat nido after coming in safely.. like what exactly? If you look at a lot of the OU walls now - Amoongus, Clef, Ferro, Tran, Skarm, Chomp, Lando-T, SpDef Jirachi, Rotom, Tangrowth, etc.. - Nido can cover all of them with its movepool lol. I'm not saying it's gonna autowin and can break the whole team, but saying that you can basically switch in to it whenever and just revenge kill it is very wrong. I'm also not sure about you saying that it wishes it had a good neutral coverage move, as its dual stab hit hella hard and you can usually just click one of them.

Lastly, attacking what's in front of you isn't bad. You can't just say the opponent is gonna switch into whatever eats the hit when you haven't even given an example as I fail to see (at least from your post) a scenario when this happens. You make it sound like every team is gonna be able yo reliably switch into Nido when in reality, they're not.

I'll admit that Nido can't do everything by itself, but we're talking about a B+ mon here. Ffs when was the last time a B+ mon was able to safely switch into the only S mon in the game and gain momentum from doing so, lol

 

[HailFall]

Sigh
The reason people get so aggressive over fkn pokemon always seems to escape me. Well i suppose at this point theres nothing i can really do or say to convince people of my point since the support is overwhelmingly not on my side but i guess ill foolishly try to respond regardless. Im probably just gonna drop this after this reply because theres no point in continuing to argue it.

what????

i'm not going to bother replying to every part of your "counter-argument" because anyone who knows this game will know half of your post is just pure wrong like when you implied kyurem-b provides more defensive synergy than nidoking (zzz)

uhmmm? Nido has terrible bulk, mediocre defensive typing, and no form of recovery. Kyub has a decent pool of resistances thanks to dragon typing, reliable recovery, and decent bulk with its super fat hp stat and above average defenses.

and most notably the second to last sentence in your post. that line is so damn wrong, it's just blasphemous to even think you have used nidoking / have played against a competent user of one. i, i simply cannot put how wrong that line is into words lol

Ive been using nido all day today and yesterday so yeah ive used it. These accusations of me basing my opinion on theorymon are unnecessary. Two people can use nido and have different experiences with it. Maybe I am wrong and my experiences with it have not been what i would expect from a B+ mon by coincidence. Regardless im not sure why this is becoming about me rather than my nom. feel free to disagree but going out of your way to mock me with this condescending attitude is unnecessary...

but i will reply to the rest of your post. a check is something that can revenge kill something assuming its a decent amount of health. i don't care if it's not your definition of a check. it's the definition of check so deal with it. nidoking can check electrics

and what is the point of those other two calcs? please don't act like i'm an idiot. i know landorus-t's earthquake and azumarill's banded aqua jet can ohko nidoking ._.

How is it a check to azu then if it only gets a kill with a free switch in and if azu is locked into a move besides aqua jet? Im not going to pursue this further because its a minor point but still.

lmao dude, if you really think that this will happen in a game where someone will repeatedly switch into something faster through immunities and resistances which is already hard enough due to guessing games, AND (emphasis on the word "and") gain more from those series of plays than the nidoking user did, then this is another line i have no words for lol

care to find a couple of replays where nidoking became deadweight because the opponent outplayed the shit out of nidoking every time it came in?

Im just speaking from my experiences with the mon. Feel free to call me bad i dont care. This is just a major issue ive had with it.

this is not early xy my friend, and slowking already barely avoids a 2hko from wave after rocks (w/ no residuals btw). so no, nidoking is not shit against slowking

Not sure if youre trying to imply that slowking is irrelivant, but if you are its not. It's a pretty nice check to stuff like diancie, latios, volcanion, etc while also checking tons of the same stuff as bro and is a decent cm'er to boot. Also slowking has regen so its usually not that hard to keep it at full to take on nidoking.

and chansey doesn't belong in this argument, just fyi

Why not? Chansey balance is by no means a completely irrelevant thing I've just invented for the sake of my argument. Its a real thing and I see no reason to pretend it isnt. Nido doesnt have a chance to break through chansey. Not such an unstoppable balance breaker against those teams it would seem.

 

[Seth_]

I feel like onyl reason why nidoking is B+ is ability to switch in any standard clef's move (boltbeam is garbage). Overall this mon seems to be amazing at paper, but it relys on prediction too much. Every team have immunities to ground and posion moves. Due to his low bulk and speed once your opponent get's good switch you are in bad positon.

Kyurem B is also prediction base, however it has it's own, unique advantages. Nidoking has one reliable set, kyure has like ten milion reliable sets and that makes it much more scary to face. It is good user of every choice item user, power herb, defensive berries and life orb.

Moreover Kyurem it's incredinbly bulky. It can ever take iron head at full from excadrill. If you use something like chople berry you can screw your opponent easly. You can run hone claw set and beat common switchins. You have coverage option for scizor and clef. Kyurem as lure can patch many problems with your team.

I think that Kyurem is better wallbreaker than nidogking because it is much more unpredictable.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

I feel like onyl reason why nidoking is B+ is ability to switch in any standard clef's move (boltbeam is garbage). Overall this mon seems to be amazing at paper, but it relys on prediction too much. Every team have immunities to ground and posion moves. Due to his low bulk and speed once your opponent get's good switch you are in bad positon.

Kyurem B is also prediction base, however it has it's own, unique advantages. Nidoking has one reliable set, kyure has like ten milion reliable sets and that makes it much more scary to face. It is good user of every choice item user, power herb, defensive berries and life orb.

Moreover Kyurem it's incredinbly bulky. It can ever take iron head at full from excadrill. If you use something like chople berry you can screw your opponent easly. You can run hone claw set and beat common switchins. You have coverage option for scizor and clef. Kyurem as lure can patch many problems with your team.

I think that Kyurem is better wallbreaker than nidogking because it is much more unpredictable.

Excadrill ohkoes KyuB with Iron Head w/ LO even if it's Jolly, lol

The argument here was never whether KyuB was a better wallbreaker than Nido or not.. KyuB only came up when it was said that it has better defensive synergy than Nido, which it simply put doesn't.

I'm sure being able to switch into Clef isn't the "only" reason it's B+, and if it was, I'm not sure what's wrong with being able to switch into the best mon into the game.
Sure every team has an answer for ground/poison moves but that doesn't mean every team has a reliable switch in bc once you start using it, you'll see a lot of teams struggling to switch into it with its moveset. I can't emphasize enough that he is a B+ mon that is still able to put in a ton of work. Yes, he has low speed, which is why he's a wallbreaker meant to dent walls, not beat mons faster than it like Latios, Keldeo, and Diancie lol.

Again, nobody was comparing KyuB's sets to Nido's. Also never seen defensive berries, hone claws, or power herb used on KyuB lol. Its 4 (not ten million) sets make it unpredictable, but no one said it was predictable in the first place. Yes you have coverage options for certain mons but I'm not sure where this comes into play, as so does Nido lol.

Just felt like I had to get that out of the way and refocus on Nidoking and not if or if not KyuB is a better wallbreaker than Nido.

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

Kyurem-B vs Nidoking

I like both so don't call me biased

Typing / Bulk

Both of their typings are neither trash nor amazing. Kyurem-B has a weakness to SR (this is the big one but both spikes suck too) , Fighting, Rock, Fighting, Steel, and Fairy, all crippling weaknesses to have, even with its resistances to Electric (nice but most just volt out anyway), Grass (only Grass-types it beats are passive ones like Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur; Serperior and Breloom can beat it), and Water (only can beat certain ones, Keldeo blows it back, Azu can't be switched into, Manaphy does a lot with +3 Psychic, Volc can't be switched into, Starmie can't be switched into, Suicune is super fat + burns, (Mega) Gyarados does a lot with Crunch/Bounce, only ones like Rotom-W, Quagsire and Slowking are easily beaten). Its bulk is very nice, but all these weakness make it hard to argue its defensive capabilities. If anything, KyuB's weaknesses create more holes in a team instead of fixing them usually. Nidoking is relatively frail (still can take 1 or 2 hits usually tho), and it has a bunch of bad weaknesses too, but it can easily take advantage of its most important resistance, Fairy (King Clefable + Diancie w/0 Earth Power). Also nido eats up sr like breakfast

Movesets

Kyurem-B can run a bunch of sets, but most are only decent or worse. Specs KyuB <reg Specs Kyu, Scarf is pretty weak, the berries aren't good, and Power Herb is disappointing due to its one-time use. LO and Band are its best sets imo (Hone Claws sounds heat tho might have to try it). Nidoking standard set (TBolt/ Shadow Ball are cool btw) is predictable, but its excellent coverage, backed by SF + LO, hits so much hard. While it does require prediction to use, not many things can even switch into it 100%, and its power + coverage allows it to do heavy damage to slower stuffz. Kyurem-B can run HP Fire, Outrage, and Iron Head effectively on LO, but losing Roost sucks, and it compounds its hazard weakness even further. For the Chansey thing, Latios, Zard Y, Volcanion, some Mega Diancie and a few more can lose to it, but they are still effective mons (true these guys have other things going for them but that's why they are ranked higher).

might edit more in later (tired af please excuse if i fuck up a part of the post) but i say nido is definitely better than stuff like mega aero in B (cool but not amazing by any means) and hippo in B+ (also fine but easy af to wear down and the lower Spdef sucks for stuff like Lati + using it as a talon checks blows) so id prefer it to stay in b+

 

[kek123]

Yeah ik. For better clarification, here's what the pursuit trapper set takes from Latios and the like:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 52 SpD Bisharp: 172-203 (63.4 - 74.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 52 SpD Bisharp: 144-172 (53.1 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Regardless of the Sp.def EVs, it still takes over half. Compare that to TTar, the trapper I recommended to use instead of Sharp:
(Scarf): 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Scarf): 184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 156-185 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
(Band): 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 185-218 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Band): 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 185-218 (50.5 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

May not seem like a big difference, after all Latios does over 50% to Sharp as well as both TTar variants, but look at how much -2 Latios does to Sharp and Tar:

-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 52 SpD Bisharp: 86-101 (31.7 - 37.2%) -- 89.9% chance to 3HKO
-2 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 94-110 (27.5 - 32.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

The fact is, regardless of the Sp.Att drop from Draco, Draco still can 2hko. Which means that Latios is less likely to switch out, since the opponent can predict the pursuit play, Draco again, and kill the Sharp. TTar doesn't have this problem unless Draco gets a high roll, and that's just for Scarf variants. Sure you could use AV Bisharp, but its even slower than normal Sharp (and as a result more reliant on Sucker, which further compounds the 50/50 issue), and, again, just sorta wastes Bisharp's potential. If you want a bulky pursuit trapper, there's Scizor and Metagross. If you want a Trapper with priority, there's Scizor and Weavile. Idk what Sharp really has over those guys to justify its use besides not taking up a mega slot.

Bisharp up to A
Bisharp is a big threat and can sweep almost everytime when the opponents team is lowered, because intimidate pokemon cant check it becomes even a more bigger threat and it can also run things like Scarf or AV Pursuit to trap latis and other mons like that. It is also a counter to Clefable and other fairy type what can help.

Bisharp isnt a latios switch in you proved your point but what it is it an great mon that cant be walled by the two best walls in this meta clefable and lando-t in fact it destroys them , yes it true that t-tar better counter's latios better, but there many thing bisharp does better than t-tar SD sucker punch defiant etc. but im not taking side here i'd also like to ask why we are talking about scarf and AV bisharp both set are complete and utter trash like AV trapper.... just use t-tar ,scarf.... is just bad also just use scarf t-tar if you want to make an argument for bisharp only talk about Lum berry LO and dark glasses as proven by CTC is a lord. bisharp is not a latios switch in so when talking about bisharp moving up dont even talk about latios and trapping it because t-tar well be the answer and rightfully so and also it a 50/50 between weather you sucker punch or pursuit also imo pursuit is a waste of a move on bisharp when SD is there FPB you should really talk about that best set a mon has when trying to get it moved up (Life Orb)

like I said im nutraul but when making argument dont talk about how the mon pursuit traps only there many more factors like how it fairs in the current meta and about how it compares to other mons and don't talk about it two worse sets as you main point

note: other pokemon exist not just the lati twins and that imo pursuit is a waste of a move set on bisharp

 

[Seth_]

Excadrill ohkoes KyuB with Iron Head w/ LO even if it's Jolly, lol

252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 351-416 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Not to mention that not every Excadrill runs life orb and Kyurem is versitale enough to run diffrent spreads.

I'm sure being able to switch into Clef isn't the "only" reason it's B+, and if it was, I'm not sure what's wrong with being able to switch into the best mon into the game.

Nothing, nidoking just simply don't have that much to offer beside being clef counter. There are much better walbreakers out there.

Again, nobody was comparing KyuB's sets to Nido's. Also never seen defensive berries, hone claws, or power herb used on KyuB lol. Its 4 (not ten million) sets make it unpredictable, but no one said it was predictable in the first place. Yes you have coverage options for certain mons but I'm not sure where this comes into play, as so does Nido lol.

Because nidoking has just one set which makes it much easier to play against it?

Sure every team has an answer for ground/poison moves but that doesn't mean every team has a reliable switch in bc once you start using it, you'll see a lot of teams struggling to switch into it with its moveset. I can't emphasize enough that he is a B+ mon that is still able to put in a ton of work. Yes, he has low speed, which is why he's a wallbreaker meant to dent walls, not beat mons faster than it like Latios, Keldeo, and Diancie lol.

It's wallbreaker that is not even good at wallbreaking. Even with fire blast it does not OHKO amoongus and get spored back. It is 1v1 by rotom. It does not have much for slowbro and it is OHKO back. Torn-t can switch in on it, knock off life orb and avoid getting 2HKO. Chanse walls it any day. Even hippo wins with it 1v1.

It may put some work but simply is not as good as most stuff from B+ (amoonguss, starmie, kyurem b)

 

[AM]

Regarding w/e the hell the Nidoking discussion is.

Nidoking is more of a balance breaker first and foremost. There's not much a balance or at least your usual teams that can really stomach it will do except for doing those double predictions to get something safely in to handle it. Being one of the few good mons to not be hindered by standard Clef set is also being really undersold here but I don't think there's a need to go into detail on this. For what's it worth like I've told some others I've mostly stopped caring about the ranks below A ranks, with the exception of B+ mons who could go up, because they tend to be subject to a lot of nitpicks and really arbitrary measurements of value and comparison such as the Kyurem-B v Nidoking points which I think is a bit silly since they handle entirely different things with different pros and cons. Throwing out the word wall-breaker I think is more in line with Kyurem-B but I personally think Kyurem-B isn't that great and its wallbreaking potential is mostly based on which set it runs. There's like one good set with slight variations for Nidoking and even then using other variations is normally an opportunity cost, Taunt for example where you miss coverage for the trade off to stop Chansey from using recovery. Regardless of the terminology being thrown around I think Nidoking is fine where it is although as mentioned no strong opinion these days below A stuff, the stuff that is normally way more relevant.

In other news if the ranking team wants to consider it at a later time I'd bump Suicune to A- or drop like half the B+ stuff to represent Terrakion, Starmie, and Suicune being actually good, debatably other stuff. I know CBB made reference to the under valued Starmie showing the disparity between the B+ mons but I think Suicune personally is the best defensive water in the tier, on par with Slowbro if not better in certain situations, and it should be reflected as such better than its current position in B+. A more elaborate explanation can be provided but I wanted to chime in on the Nidoking points a bit without all the hostility.

 

[Jaroda]

To further add to Nidoking, which is fine in B+, when people say Nidoking synergizes well defensively, it's because of it's unique set of resistances. Resisting Rock, Fairy and Fighting in one place are handy. And this is overlooked, but Nidoking is immune to both Thunder Wave and Toxic, and doesn't give a shit about burns because it's a special attacker, so it also semi functions as a status absorber. It's STABs have common immunities sure, but it has all the coverage it needs for said immunities. Its speed tier is just usable enough to, as was said, threaten a ton of common balance and BO mon without requiring setup to do so.

But more than anything, I think the main contention against the argument to drop is that because you can sometimes click a move that the opponent predicted well enough to switch in safely, is somehow a knock against Nidoking. Nidoking is able to force switches. The risk/reward ratio is entirely in Nidoking's favor in these instances. The idea that this is the reason Nido should drop logically is just not sound.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

252 Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 351-416 (89.7 - 106.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Not to mention that not every Excadrill runs life orb and Kyurem is versitale enough to run diffrent spreads.


Nothing, nidoking just simply don't have that much to offer beside being clef counter. There are much better walbreakers out there.


Because nidoking has just one set which makes it much easier to play against it?

It's wallbreaker that is not even good at wallbreaking. Even with fire blast it does not OHKO amoongus and get spored back. It is 1v1 by rotom. It does not have much for slowbro and it is OHKO back. Torn-t can switch in on it, knock off life orb and avoid getting 2HKO. Chanse walls it any day. Even hippo wins with it 1v1.

It may put some work but simply is not as good as most stuff from B+ (amoonguss, starmie, kyurem b)

Okay I'm not gonna keep this pointless discussion going as AM's post was sufficient. Here's my last say: I was simply pointing out flaws in your argument, I never started the dead horse KyuB vs Nido discussion. Most Drill's are either LO/Balloon which beat KyuB. The only thing Nidoking offers is not "a Clef counter" so look at both spectrums. Yes, there are much better wallbreakers out there which is why Nido is B+.
Not sure where you got those mons from as the only one I mentioned was Amoongus and if you need Nido you don't let it get spored. I never mentioned Bro, Hippo, Rotom, etc and the only one that can switch and not get 2ohkoed on switch is Torn, which I never mentioned. Nido is fine where it is and if it would drop use good reasoning besides it's "only a Clef counter." Done with that.

Just so this post isn't deleted due to the nonsense comparisons, I would be on the Suicune to A- train. The thing has incredible bulk and being weak to only two types is good for it. It doesn't mind status and with the right support can beat a lot of teams. I also don't think Terrak should drop as the thing is underused imo but still deadly (MegaStarUniverse's BO Terrak team is godlike). I'll save the nom and Suicune post when I have more time.

 

[Seth_]

Okay I'm not gonna keep this pointless discussion going as AM's post was sufficient.

You can't just say that and then continue discussion like nothing. Not cool kiddo. I'm bored commenting your nitpicks.

In other news if the ranking team wants to consider it at a later time I'd bump Suicune to A- or drop like half the B+ stuff to represent Terrakion, Starmie, and Suicune being actually good, debatably other stuff. I know CBB made reference to the under valued Starmie showing the disparity between the B+ mons but I think Suicune personally is the best defensive water in the tier, on par with Slowbro if not better in certain situations, and it should be reflected as such better than its current position in B+. A more elaborate explanation can be provided but I wanted to chime in on the Nidoking points a bit without all the hostility.

Agreed on dropping some mons from B+, but how Suicune is close to slowbro? As calm mind sweeper slwobro has better recovery and extra coverage allowing him to 1v1 clef and avoid being walled by volcanion. Slowbro has regenerator and t wave which helps a ton against most teams. Can you explain?

 

[HailFall]

Suicune has roar to let it phaze stuff like boosted zardx rather than just para it while foddering itself off. Volcanion cant do shit back to suicune and its just setup bait for it thanks to pressure quickly pp stalling out volc's moves. Clef can beat roar cune with ultra hax i guess but besides getting full para like 10 turns in a row, cune is typically gonna be able to phaze clef out as it sets up. in addition to this neutrality to dark and bug moves lets it phaze out stuff like sd zor in an emergency and also check weavile. Its also got better bulk than slowbro, along with significantly more speed as well (you can do stuff like speedcreep specs mag for an example of how this is useful). Slowbro definitely has its advantages but suicune is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[AM]

Agreed on dropping some mons from B+, but how Suicune is close to slowbro? As calm mind sweeper slwobro has better recovery and extra coverage allowing him to 1v1 clef and avoid being walled by volcanion. Slowbro has regenerator and t wave which helps a ton against most teams. Can you explain?

Hello,

Hailfall somewhat beat me to it but his descriptions are really vague and I don't think encompass the whole reasons or at least mine which can lead to some misconceptions, like the Zard-X point. Let's assume we're talking about the Roar set cause that's what I think is the best set. Suicune is one of the few waters unlike Slowbro that can hold off common offensive threats such as Weavile and SD M-Scizor with its Roar set, Weavile having a lot of noticeable tournament play. The matchup factors with Clefable is based on circumstances that need to take into account special attack drops from Moonblast, paralysis from Thunder Wave, and Slowbros decrease in Special Defense and speed. All these factors into account can potentially mean Slowbro can still lose this matchup against Clefable. Suicunes ability to Roar Clefable out allows itself to keep Clefable more under control and over a longer period of time opportunities to set up with Calm Mind to a point Clefable isn't able to boost anymore to defend itself. A couple of example of Suicunes strength can be seen in these two replays.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-117763 - TDK vs Aim for WCOP

A lack of preparation for Suicune made the matchup extremely difficult for aim. His only reliable answer was Tail Glowing with Manaphy and hitting Suicune with Energy Ball. While this would be a good means if it was Crocune, it eventually ended up not working because of the Roar set, TDK utilizing this in opportunities where set up sweepers tried to set up. Something to note is that if Slowbro was in the slot on TDKs team it would've either lost out right to Manaphy or even Clefable considering aims set was the Tbolt variant. Arguably SD M-Scizor could've posed a large significant threat to Slowbro as well.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-162749 - BKC vs Sweepage for Smogon Tour

This replay is more to show lack of preparation for what is being shown in the ranks as something equal to the level of Gengar and some pretty inconsistent mons and BKC's team composition is a good example of how to utilize Suicune, with Spike and Pursuit support and Suicune phasing out grounded threats into Spikes, focusing on a long term end game.

I guess my main point here is the lack of preparation for a lot of teams I see in where they're not preparing for Suicune and the current trends of Spike setters, Clefable, and Suicunes Roar set is in favor towards Suicune.

As far as the Volcanion point goes, Volcanion will inevitably get stalled out of its Steam Eruptions if it tries to spam the move freely and in order for Volcanion to be an actual threat to Suicune it will need Power Herb Solarbeam (which is being explored but is niche and circumstantial) or crit Suicune with Specs Earth Power. The end result if we're assuming the Roar variant is that Volcanion will get phased out, probably coming back into rocks if the Suicune player is aware that keeping hazard removers at bay will eventually wear down Volcanions overtime.

While Slowbro has its own benefits such as the points you mentioned, Twave, being a better Char-X check, I think Suicune has its positive traits to distinguish itself a much more significant threat and team-building component than the majority of B+ mons and should be acknowledged in the A ranks as a relevant threat you should prepare for.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

A ---> A-

Okay its been a while since anyone has really talked about Volcanion after its initial hype, and now that the meta has had enough time to adapt to it, I think Volcanion would fit better in A-. It's strong, pretty fat, and combined with its ability it has a decent amount of defensive utility which allows it to softcheck some cool stuff like Specs Keldeo locked into Scald or Hydro, Azumarill, Heatran, Mega Scizor, Mega Sableye, and Jirachi, as well as a semi-decent check to Clefable. While on paper it has the right qualities to make it a very splashable Pokemon, it's been proven over time that's not really the case. While it does have a lot of cool utility offensively and great defensive synergy, its weakness to rocks is a huge issue for a Pokemon that would otherwise benefit from smart double switching or pivoting to spam Steam Eruption which is very difficult to switch into already, and like Keldeo it would be able to heavily punish fat teams and apply a lot of pressure. But with its weakness to hazards on top of its lackluster Speed for a wallbreaker, it's hard for it to not only come in safely, but to apply a lot of pressure when its outsped by most of the metagame. Its bulk makes up for it a little bit, as not much can OHKO it when it's healthy outside of strong super effective hits, but it gets worn down very quickly. It's an interesting Pokemon with a very unique typing and a good ability to abuse it, but it still faces stiff competition from other wallbreakers, namely Keldeo, and Heatran as a Fire-type, and we all know how difficult it is to slap Fire-types on your team without stacking a ton of weaknesses, but Heatran is different.

I agree with the post made by bludz in the metagame thread about how Volcanion is pretty unexplored and it could very well be a hidden gem, but unlike Hoopa-U it's not broken as shit, and because of its movepool it's very linear. Its defensive set is complete ass, and the resist berries, while decent lures, heavily take away from its wallbreaking potential. Leftovers gives it much needed passive recovery but it's still on the weaker side, while Scarf is too slow to revenge anything. Specs is by far its best set atm, so as much as it's pretty "unexplored", there's not much you can really do with it. It's a great Pokemon that lots of teams tend to be weak to because it punishes most teams with only semi-reliable Keldeo switch-ins like Latios or Slowbro, as well as builds that depend on Amoonguss or other fat Grass-types as their Keldeo switch-in, and Slowbro is practically 2HKOed by Steam Eruption. The problem is, Keldeo is still so much more consistent despite being better prepared for because of its better matchup versus faster teams and resistance to rocks which gives it more opportunities to spam STABs and it can actually check a decent amount of Pokemon, whereas Volcanion is strictly used as a wallbreaker/holepuncher for the most part. I don't think dropping it any further than A- is reasonable as of now just because it's still just too early to properly judge its exact viability when its just not used that much right now, and that doesn't mean it's bad it just means people are just uncomfortable using it due to a lack of overall knowledge or experience with it, whereas Keldeo/Heatran/other wallbreakers are just so much easier to use. Besides, most of the shit in A are metagame staples that are far more splashable atm, minus maybe Mega Sableye, so Volcanion just looks awkward there and fits better with stuff like Mega Pinsir or Zard-Y which are very solid options but aren't splashable or require decent amounts of support.

I don't believe Volcanion should drop just yet. Hoopa-U was not considered "broken as shit" until long after its release. It fell and rose constantly before finally being banned. It was A at some point before being S and banned. Anyway Volcanion has that same sort of hidden potential going for it which no other mons in the tier have, and it has the advantages to make it A. Steam Eruption is almost better scald if it wasn't for the accuracy and finds ways to swap in due to its great physical bulk. Its 2 biggest weaknesses, its speed and SR weakness are easily fixed. Its mostly coming in to force something to switch which therefore negates its poor speed stat and emphasizes its power. And a hazard remover can be used to help with SR. Because of the weaknesses and advantages it has I say it fits better in a rank with mons like Zard x and Talonflame. They come with some opportunity cost but offer fantastic offensive presence with there defensive presence being sub par. Volcanion is fine in A

A ---> A

 

[sam-testings]

The main difference between Volcanion and Hoopa in my opinion was Hoopas ability to run multiple extrememly threatening sets. Volcanion cannot really do that and that is what sets it back. Any set that is not specs loses out on a lot of power that it really needs, and being locked into water/fire isn't exactly the best. And that "hidden potential" has not been found yet, so we can't say that we should keep it in A because of it. Also, you can't just say that "you can just use a hazard remover lmao". VR ranks pokemon on their individual ability, not if there are certain things on the team with it. That is the reason why Mega Altaria is not up in A/A-, because it needs something to get rid of steels for it, such as Magnezone. Drop it to A-, hidden potential hasnt been found yet and most of its weaknesses have already been covered by other people

Edit: Just to point out, A- is still quite good, im not saying volcanion is bad. I just think that its less effective than most people think it is.