Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

[Luck O' the Irish]

Damn, I was about to post a bunch of stuff that I thought could warrant moving, but you guys, especially Eternally, sniped me on a lot of them. I'll post the full list anyways.

Right now, the Viability Rankings don't do the best job of reflecting the metagame, and there is a serious oversaturation of Pokemon in A+ and A.

A+ -> S
S rank is looking really lonely, and Jynx has really taken over as one of the top Pokemon in the tier. Sub Nasty Plot has been on a tear lately, and it's not at all surprising. Most teams are already pretty Ice weak, and the few Ice resists that are floating around are either not reliable Ice resists or can't do a lot to Jynx in return. More than that, Jynx can run anything from SubPlot to Scarf to Life Orb to Focus Sash with a variety of moves among all of these sets being viable. Lovely Kiss makes all of these sets even better, including Scarf, because even if you can't revenge something, you still have the ability to sleep it. Water immunity and Ice and Psychic resist add so much more, allowing it to fit well on every archetype barring stall.

A+ -> A
The meta is really unkind to Kangaskhan. As Eternally said, many teams pack more than one Normal check, and in a metagame where Tauros is available and most teams are prepared for Spikes, it's hard to justify using Kangaskhan. Garbodor also heavily punishes Fake Out and can be seen everywhere.

A+ -> A
Rhydon has taken over as the Normal check of choice because Tauros's Fire Blast does so much to Steelix. Steelix also struggles as a Psychic resist because most Psychic-types carry coverage for Steelix (Grass Knot and Hidden Power Ground for Mesprit, Ice Beam and Focus Blast for Jynx, Malamar sets up on it if it comes in first). There's not much else to say about Steelix aside from that it's a fine Pokemon that does well in the metagame but that there are other options that are generally better.

A+ -> A
Swellow is really strong and I wouldn't mind it not dropping. However, its damage output is just shy of being great, which means it just barely misses out on a lot of OHKOs vs offensive Pokemon and 2HKOs vs defensive ones. As I mentioned earlier, this metagame is pretty well prepared for Spikes, which furthers Swellow's troubles. It also lacks the synergy that the aforementioned Jynx offers, which makes it harder to put on a team.

A -> A-
Barbaracle finds a lot of trouble setting up right now, and until you can get it out and click Shell Smash, it often feels like you're down 5-6 from the get-go. You really can't afford to bring it out early because it needs all the health it can get when you set up. Hitmonchan is also everywhere, which really hurts Barbaracle because even if it does set up, there's often priority sitting in the back, waiting to pick it off. You can run Chople Berry to help with this, but then if the opponent doesn't have Hitmonchan, your item is practically useless because the only other common Fighting-type is Hariyama, which does tons to you anyways.

A -> A-
This has been ongoing for a while, but my big issue with Floatzel is that it often doesn't feel strong enough to justify using. While it does very well vs offensive teams, the loss of Sawk and Sceptile shifted the metagame far more toward balance and bulky offense. Unless it's carrying Hidden Power Grass, Gastrodon handles Floatzel incredibly easily, and other common special sponges such as Lanturn and Mega Audino have a really time handling it as well. Jynx's rising popularity also hurts Floatzel a ton because it has to think twice before clicking Hydro Pump, which makes it much easier to switch into as its other coverage is inaccurate or weak.

A -> A-
Ludicolo is another Pokemon that is hurt a lot by Jynx's rise in popularity. Even without considering that, despite how incredibly threatening it is, Ludicolo is often just inferior to more consistent choices such as Lilligant, which have a much easier time setting up. Being the most threatening Pokemon after setting up isn't really the goal in NU because we have a number of scary breakers that don't need to set up to tear things apart. You're usually better off with stuff that can clean after setting up, and you want that setup to be as easy as possible.

A- -> A
Hitmonchan is our tier's best spinner, and it has been everywhere. Fighting priority, immediate presence on the field, not weak to Stealth Rock, etc. Its rank should reflect how popular it has become.

B+ -> B
The only things Primeape has going for it are U-turn and Earthquake for Garbodor. Aside from that, Primeape offers very little for a well-built team because it's so frail and not very strong.

B -> B+
Carracosta does well in Tauros-dominated metas (see BW2) because it's one of few Rock-types that doesn't take too much from Earthquake and it has a threatening presence on the field. While Regirock has Thunder Wave going for it, Carracosta has a much more important benefit in being able to threaten Rhydon with Scald. Shell Smash is also better in a Tauros-dominated metagame, and there are few Pokemon that outspeed it after +2. Hitmonchan hurts the Shell Smash set just like it hurt's Barbaracle, but Carracosta's combination of both makes it great.

B -> B-
Grumpig is terrible. It takes on Fire- and Ice-types well, and few other Pokemon can do both in one slot. But in return, it offers very little to a team. It is laughable easy to switch into, and all you really have to fear from it is Thunder Wave. There are much more consistent Fire- and Ice-type checks, even if you might not be able to compress them easily into one slot.

B- -> C+
When was the last time this did anything relevant?

B- -> B+
Great Tauros answer that is really, really difficult to switch into. Also comes in for free against most Garbodor.

B- -> B
No big meta changes to make it better, but Zangoose is the most threatening Pokemon in the tier and has priority for faster checks.

Wish I had seen this sooner since I agree with most of them but some I disagree with strongly.

As it is right now Hitmonchan does not deserve to move up to A. Saying hitmonchan is the tier's best spinner doesn't mean a whole lot considering this tier's means of removing hazards is pretty bad in general, and its complete inability to deal with dedicated hazard stack cores mean that it is often unable to do its job of spinning against hazard stack teams, especially since Rotom + Garbodor is the most common hazard stack core in the tier. If garb leaves I can see chan moving up but as of right now A- is the highest it deserves.

Camerupt definitely deserves its spot in B-, being one of the only stealth rock setters that can reliably deal with fire types, Rotom and Weezing while still having a decent matchup against xatu. Specs camel is also really hard to switch into and breaks a ton of common fire checks like hariyama (lava plume burns and earth power does a large chunk) and lanturn. To me it sounds like you haven't actually tried using this, which is understandable since Camerupt is a bit of a niche choice. Although it's more on the niche side it's still very good at what it does and fits well on many playstyles.

With Floatzel I think you're really underrating taunt since if you get hazard layers up it makes it really difficult for gastrodon to continue checking you (and things it wants to check like aggron since it needs to be at full pretty much all the time) and it also shuts down audino and defensive mantine which otherwise beat you.

Grumpig I'm kinda iffy on since although it's a lot better than you're suggesting (having focus blast is huge and its coverage is really solid in general and thick fat mean it's very solid against offense, while sub cm is a pain for a ton of bulkier teams) although it faces competition from a lot of other psychic types and since it's kind of a niche choice anyways B- might be more fitting for it regardless of our opinions on the mon as a whole, and I'll just leave it at that.

I'm fine with everything else you said

 

[ryan]

wait a second can we put Lilligant in A+ too? LOL

one of the best mons in the tier, sets up on bulky waters, takes advantage of gastro, one of the only good offensive water resists in the tier, sleep + quiver is broken, etc.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Gonna second the Lilligant nomination, Lilligant is an extremely threatening sweeper, heck it can even compete to be the best. Lilligant takes advantage of so many of the Pokemon in the higher ranks with simply Sleep Powder + QD. Magmortor has been falling out of favor slightly from competition to faster Fire-types like Combusken on Pyroar which greatly helps Lilligant. Another thing that really helps Lilligant out is the abundant amount of coverage and lures that just happens to hit Ferroseed which means Lilligant can opt for better coverage in Hidden Power Rock. A lot of things are leaning in her favor at the the moment which I believe warrants a rise.

 

[Punchshroom]

This has been bugging me for a while now:

B- to C+ (or lower)

When was the last time this has been recommended to someone as a form of hazard control? I mean sure, it's the (overall) bulkiest Defogger in the tier, and has a fairly solid matchup against most of the Stealth Rockers. However, Prinplup really doesn't manage to offer a whole lot at all; while it has the bulk and typing to be able to get off at least one Defog per match, its complete lack of recovery and Speed renders it unable to last. Prinplup also barely stops any offensive threats, as it only switches in for a grand total of once against them while getting 3HKOed / whittled down very quickly a large majority of the time. Even if you do argue the effectiveness of what is usually a guaranteed Defog in a match, don't forget you're still trying to set up Stealth Rock with this thing, in which case it becomes way trickier to fulfill both roles while keeping Prinplup alive / useful. This workload also means that Prinplup is rarely able to outlast the Stealth Rockers, which defeats the primary purpose of even using this mon in the first place.

Another classic example of a mon that is trying to do too much at once, Prinplup would be too busy juggling between setting up SR, keeping hazards away, or even just not be deadwight by attempting to stop some offensive threat, that it typically only fulfills like one of those roles. Pelipper and Mantine are much better Defoggers than this while still being successful enough in their other roles, nor are they even particularly one-dimensional (both can go a slightly offensive route with Specs or SubToxic). Meanwhile, the tier has developed enough that one can usually afford a Stealth Rocker and a hazard remover separately while maintaining solid enough synergy, diminishing the need for Prinplup in most cases.

 

[erisia]

Lots of noms this round. I'm just going to post some thoughts on a few I've already seen.

B- > B: Disagree: Zangoose is as powerful as ever but is also still extremely vulnerable to residual damage (Garbodor is steadily climbing in usage) and faster attackers (read, most of NU's threatening offensive mons). You can't understate the power of this thing's Facade but its ability to break through walls is diminished by the fact it can only get 2-3 attacks off before being KOed or forced out by priority, compared to something like Tauros which is both faster and more reliable in general. Quick Attack is also usually just chip damage against things like Tauros and Archeops and it doesn't work on Haunter at all.

A+ > S: Agree: Jynx is a very borderline case for me but man this thing is a pain in the butt to check. Sure it takes about 100% from a Much Punch but between its multitude of viable sets (Sash, Scarf, Sub NP, LO), plethora of coverage options making it almost impossible to wall, immunity to Aqua Jet / Scald and ability to bypass Sucker Punch / generate free turns with Lovely Kiss and you've got an absolute nightmare for almost all team archetypes. If anything deserves S rank at the moment it's this thing.

A+ > A: Agree: KangaSpikes is a metagame-defining archetype but Kangaskhan is not a metagame defining mon in its own right. With team support it's great: on its own or in matchups where its teammates are removed early, it's very underwhelming compared to other Normal-types like Tauros or other priority attackers like Shiftry.

A- > A: Disagree: Hitmonchan is definitely the most consistent spinner in the tier, but it's still very easy to hard counter as it runs the same moves 90% of the time and doesn't have the raw power to break past every sturdy checks like Weezing, Musharna, and Mesprit, even with Close Combat. Most teams wouldn't run Hitmonchan over Hariyama unless they needed spin support, which says something about this thing's general threat level.

B+ > B: Agree: Everyone knows how Primeape works now and pretty much every team packs something that makes this spam U-turn all game or deadweight until the late game. It doesn't help that this mon contributes nothing defensively to a team; even if it runs Vital Spirit, pretty much every Sleep user can just OHKO this thing, and Defiant isn't great atm with Mantine and Pelipper declining in usage compared to Chan.

B+ > A-: Agree: Gastrodon is such a godsend for balance, so many good attributes for teams, very easy to design around in terms of defensive synergy, and access to Recover on a defensive mon is great. Probably not as generally useful as Lanturn but not far behind for sure.

D > Unranked: Disagree: Scarf Slaking justifies this position imo due to its raw bulk and power for a revenge killer. This thing outspeeds Scarf Primeape and doesn't even get OHKO'd by its Close Combat after SR, and it's almost as powerful as Tauros. If you have a teammate that can compensate for the free turns this thing provides the opponent (such as Encore Liepard) then Slaking's advantages start to outweigh its disadvantages. Every other set is garbage. I don't recommend any other sets but I guess if you're gonna meme go hard or go home.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Changes:

Jynx A+ -> S
Steelix A+ -> A
Kangaskhan A+ -> A
Lilligant A -> A+
Ludicolo A -> A-
Hitmonchan A- -> A
Pinsir B+ -> B
Primeape B+ -> B
Gastrodon B+ -> A-
Carracosta B -> B+
Zangoose B- -> B
Prinplup B- -> C+
Camerupt B- -> C+
Golurk B- -> B
Misdreavus B- -> C+
Slaking D -> E
Lopunny D -> E

The nominations which I did not follow through with and feel need more discussion are:

Tangela C+ -> C
Grumpig B -> B-
Mismagius A- -> B+
Barbaracle A -> A-

 

[Punchshroom]

A- to B+

Mismagius has always been a situational of a Pokemon in my tastes. While it has value for being the fastest spinblocker in the tier that has some meat on its bones, it just seems to fall a tad short in other categories. In terms of defensive synergy and offensive potential, it doesn't really provide very much over Rotom and even Haunter (who at least has an immunity to poison, which allows it to better take advantage of the tier's Poison-types), and the lack of a secondary typing always seemed to put a cap on Mismagius's versatility. Its stallbreaker set is ok, but its lack of resistances (again, compared to Rotom) means that Mismagius has to prioritize bulk for the same disruptive consistency, which in turn hinders its offensive output, which is especially exploited by the Fire-types. Heck, stall today has been pretty prepared for stallbreaker Mismagius, as Magius is usually forced to slog through Audino and deal with the threat of Skuntank in the same match. Nasty Plot Mismagius meanwhile suffers from its typing and awkward mix of bulk not giving it many opportunities to boost while remaining healthy (usually it accomplishes this with the threat of Will-O-Wisp from other Mismagius sets), and faces direct competition from Haunter which can achieve much more meaningful damage output without the need of setup. It does have a decent niche in Memento, though Magius is not its only effective user, nor even its fastest one (that honor goes to Jumpluff). I feel Mismagius is not suitable enough in the meta to warrant A-, and would be more fitting in B+ alongside Haunter, though Magius could probably go even lower imo.

Stay in A

Barbaracle is still establishing itself as a strong threat in this meta. Shell Smash sets are still dangerous, and Barbaracle can afford moves to throw off most of its checks, such as Substitute, Earthquake, Grass Knot, etc. What helps keep Barbaracle in the running is its superior Speed compared to other Shell Smashers, as well as its good initial power courtesy of Tough Claws (Switcheroo is a bonus too). This means that even if the meta shifts to a point where it becomes difficult for Shell Smashers to set up / maintain a sweep, Barbaracle can equip a Choice Scarf for immediate offensive presence, and it has the tools to threaten practically all of its newfound targets that it could not outspeed before, displaying a good ability to adapt to the meta and staying relevant.

Now for my explosive nomination:

Rise to S

This is probably a controversial suggestion, but there is little denying the sheer impact this mon has always had in NU. Garbodor has always been the premier Spiker (and Toxic Spiker), as it seemingly has the perfect blend of bulk, Speed, and even typing to practically guarantee at least one layer of Spikes in nearly any match. Even then, it's honestly a bit crazy how much other things it can offer at the same time. As a defensive mon, its resistances are really valuable, and even though it doesn't have reliable recovery, Rocky Helmet Garbodor has always operated on the policy of simply wearing its opponents down faster than vice versa, and with Aftermath and even the occasional Gunk Shot poison, it does a damn fine job of it; Garbodor also deters spinning and U-turn this way. Offensively, Garbodor has a rather expansive attacking movepool as well, including moves such as Drain Punch, Seed Bomb, and even Explosion, so Garbo doesn't always pass for a sitting duck. Even though Garbodor's Special Attack is rather low, its special movepool contains enough power to keep would-be checks on their toes, such as Focus Blast for Steelix, Thunderbolt for Pelipper, and even Psychic for Weezing. Garbodor is both one of the most consistent and one of the most customizable Pokemon in the tier, and I believe S Rank would do its raw effectiveness justice.

 

[Deeerpz]

Why the fuck are we unranking Lopunny again?

The only arguments made against it so far have been "it's outclassed and has low effectiveness in comparison to other normal types and doesn't fit well on many teams" and "Cosmic Pass is a very shaky/gimmicky strategy"

Yeah no shit guys, that is why it is supposed to sit in D-Rank instead of chilling with Tauros and Kanga in S and A.
It has a clearly defined niche that no other mon in the tier is really able to pull off the way it is, and yet it gets dropped while shit like Stoutland remains ranked, which can only really be run with Hippo, and if any of you have played sand recently, it's gimmicky at best. The reasoning given to drop Lopunny could easily be applied to every D-ranked mon right now.

I mean, I couldn't give two shits about whether Lopunny is ranked or not, but stuff like this is making me question the integrity of this list. Literally nothing has changed about what got this mon ranked in the first place a month or two ago, and now you are dropping it based on two nominations which clearly did not put any effort into research.

 

[boltsandbombers]

Why the fuck are we unranking Lopunny again?

The only arguments made against it so far have been "it's outclassed and has low effectiveness in comparison to other normal types and doesn't fit well on many teams" and "Cosmic Pass is a very shaky/gimmicky strategy"

Yeah no shit guys, that is why it is supposed to sit in D-Rank instead of chilling with Tauros and Kanga in S and A.
It has a clearly defined niche that no other mon in the tier is really able to pull off the way it is, and yet it gets dropped while shit like Stoutland remains ranked, which can only really be run with Hippo, and if any of you have played sand recently, it's gimmicky at best. The reasoning given to drop Lopunny could easily be applied to every D-ranked mon right now.

I mean, I couldn't give two shits about whether Lopunny is ranked or not, but stuff like this is making me question the integrity of this list. Literally nothing has changed about what got this mon ranked in the first place a month or two ago, and now you are dropping it based on two nominations which clearly did not put any effort into research.

First of all, there's no need to be so upset over such a trivial matter. Anyways, I'm going to let the people who actually made this nomination back up the factual info here, but I think that saying it has a defined niche is a bit too generous for Lopunny when it is a rather gimmicky strategy. Yes, nothing massively changed for it metagame wise but opinions change over time.

Why would it be fair for me to just ignore a nomination someone makes? The only times where that has happened when such a nomination is a repeat or if it has little to no reasoning. If you want to lose integrity in the viability rankings over this one change so be it, but that's just downright silly. In the grand scheme of things, the D ranked mons shouldn't be defining the integrity and value of the rankings, and are just there because they're niche. You certainly don't have to agree with or like every decision we make, but I'd really appreciate if you didn't put so much value on the lower rankings.

 

[erisia]

Honestly I'd advocate getting rid of D-rank all together. The line between "good and maybe wants a rank" and "good but doesn't need a rank" is so blurry it's difficult to come up with solid reasons for why say Bronzor and Volbeat should stay but Slowpoke or Murkrow should go. At that stage a good player can get just about anything to work, and it becomes less about the mon than about individual people who used it. It's not really helpful having this rank at all and it just causes controversy when something extremely niche is nominated. C- should be the minimum standard for ranking imo, with D only being for NU mons that are super bad and shouldn't be used (like Muk). I can't think of one D-rank mon I would recommend to someone apart from like Probopass if you're running Dragons or Linoone, or Flareon or Frillish for stall teams. As it stands there's no real reason for D-rank existing apart from being some sort of "approved memes" list.

Regarding Lopunny I still think Cosmic Pass has potential; it could take Frogadier's spot in C- in my opinion as the strategy seems pretty consistent and Lopunny is a pretty good user of Cosmic Power + Baton Pass due to its good speed and bulk. Frogadier is one of those borderline meme mons imo; sure you can get it to work, but I'd never recommend it as a general option to anyone over say Floatzel or Garbodor. You could also move Stoutland + Hippo to C- under this logic as Sand is still somewhat effective as a strategy.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Why the fuck are we unranking Lopunny again?

The only arguments made against it so far have been "it's outclassed and has low effectiveness in comparison to other normal types and doesn't fit well on many teams" and "Cosmic Pass is a very shaky/gimmicky strategy"

Yeah no shit guys, that is why it is supposed to sit in D-Rank instead of chilling with Tauros and Kanga in S and A.
It has a clearly defined niche that no other mon in the tier is really able to pull off the way it is, and yet it gets dropped while shit like Stoutland remains ranked, which can only really be run with Hippo, and if any of you have played sand recently, it's gimmicky at best. The reasoning given to drop Lopunny could easily be applied to every D-ranked mon right now.

I mean, I couldn't give two shits about whether Lopunny is ranked or not, but stuff like this is making me question the integrity of this list. Literally nothing has changed about what got this mon ranked in the first place a month or two ago, and now you are dropping it based on two nominations which clearly did not put any effort into research.

It could also be something that gained a little bit too much hype at the time of nomination with thoughts roaming around like, "oh yh this Pokemon has a niche that is good enough for D." But then later people come back and question. I'll use slacking for example. The nomination was based around how every time it came in it got a kill. At that moment people thought getting an almost guanteed kill out weighed the forfeit turn of truant. But now people realized that letting ANY set up sweeper get a free turn is a terrible idea which resulted in the nomination for the drop. Most of the nomination I see for the lower ranks are usually, "oh yh I used this pokemon and it was good." which is fine sometimes when people are underselling the Pokemon for what it can actually do, think of when Sliggoo was like C rank during Sceptile meta. But what I'm trying to say is that people are realizing it isn't actually D rank because they have look more deeply at the Pokemon in question, just because it can use a few unique things doesn't mean it is viable enough for D. If that was the case Delibird would have stayed D rank

 

[Deeerpz]

First of all, there's no need to be so upset over such a trivial matter. Anyways, I'm going to let the people who actually made this nomination back up the factual info here, but I think that saying it has a defined niche is a bit too generous for Lopunny when it is a rather gimmicky strategy. Yes, nothing massively changed for it metagame wise but opinions change over time.

Why would it be fair for me to just ignore a nomination someone makes? The only times where that has happened when such a nomination is a repeat or if it has little to no reasoning. If you want to lose integrity in the viability rankings over this one change so be it, but that's just downright silly. In the grand scheme of things, the D ranked mons shouldn't be defining the integrity and value of the rankings, and are just there because they're niche. You certainly don't have to agree with or like every decision we make, but I'd really appreciate if you didn't put so much value on the lower rankings.

Oh I am not upset or anything. My wording may have been a bit rough. My bad.

It's just that a gimmicky strategy is still a clearly defined niche, no matter how gimmicky it is. Let's be honest, sand blows. Wish passing with Flareon blows, choice banded Flareon Blows, Guts Flareon blows. Marowak? Really? When was the last time anyone has used this to any success?
I just don't see how a mon with a great speed tier, decent bulk and a great ability is not worthy of a rank when fucking Huntail is supposed to have one.
None of these mons really DO anything better than anything else in the tier.
Lopunny, on the other hand, does. It's just that what he does is not highly sought after.

Also, concerning "value of ranks", there should be no such thing. You, as a council, are producing a list of mons that you doom worthy of using in NU. You say I should not be asking you to ignore nominations (which I am not, just asking to check if they are actually contributing to the case, which I don't think can be said about the Lopunny noms, but that's my 2ct), but at the same time, you are asking me to basically ignore the lower ranks when it comes to the integrity of this list. They are not defining the integrity and value of the rankings as a whole, but at the same time, they are not any less important on the list itself than any of the higher ranked mons should be. Because at the end of the day, it is a list for a reason, and if you feel like there are non-defining elements on that list, then I would go with erisia s suggestion and get rid of the part which you feel is non-defining instead of asing your users to ignore them when it comes to the integrity of the list.

As long as the list is as big as it is, I will keep valuing lower rankings as much as higher ones, as there is literally no reason not to. You are capable of defining what is relevant and what isn't, so if you think I should not value certain things, you should not be putting them on the list in the first place.

All of that being said, this is an issue I have had with the whole viability rankings as a whole, seeing how they are very arbitrary. This was just an instance where I felt comfortable talking about it, because I have used Lopunny quite a bit and the people who nominated it clearly didn't.

 

[Blast]

Oh I am not upset or anything. My wording may have been a bit rough. My bad.

It's just that a gimmicky strategy is still a clearly defined niche, no matter how gimmicky it is. Let's be honest, sand blows. Wish passing with Flareon blows, choice banded Flareon Blows, Guts Flareon blows. Marowak? Really? When was the last time anyone has used this to any success?
I just don't see how a mon with a great speed tier, decent bulk and a great ability is not worthy of a rank when fucking Huntail is supposed to have one.
None of these mons really DO anything better than anything else in the tier.
Lopunny, on the other hand, does. It's just that what he does is not highly sought after.

Also, concerning "value of ranks", there should be no such thing. You, as a council, are producing a list of mons that you doom worthy of using in NU. You say I should not be asking you to ignore nominations (which I am not, just asking to check if they are actually contributing to the case, which I don't think can be said about the Lopunny noms, but that's my 2ct), but at the same time, you are asking me to basically ignore the lower ranks when it comes to the integrity of this list. They are not defining the integrity and value of the rankings as a whole, but at the same time, they are not any less important on the list itself than any of the higher ranked mons should be. Because at the end of the day, it is a list for a reason, and if you feel like there are non-defining elements on that list, then I would go with erisia s suggestion and get rid of the part which you feel is non-defining instead of asing your users to ignore them when it comes to the integrity of the list.

As long as the list is as big as it is, I will keep valuing lower rankings as much as higher ones, as there is literally no reason not to. You are capable of defining what is relevant and what isn't, so if you think I should not value certain things, you should not be putting them on the list in the first place.

All of that being said, this is an issue I have had with the whole viability rankings as a whole, seeing how they are very arbitrary. This was just an instance where I felt comfortable talking about it, because I have used Lopunny quite a bit and the people who nominated it clearly didn't.

If you have experience with a Pokemon and don't think it should be unranked, then actually post about the Pokemon ?_? Eternally posted about dropping Lopunny almost a full week ago, so I don't see why we're supposed to write off a nom as "not contributing to the case" when a grand total of zero people objected, despite having plenty of time. The council isn't going to go out of its way to question every single nomination that may or may not be wrong, and it's really not our job to. If I'm not super informed about some low-rank mon, and literally no one itt shows that they're actually against unranking it, I think I should be able to trust the public on where it should go.

Also, if there are Pokemon that are "worse" than Lopunny on the list, that's a reason to derank them rather than keeping Lopunny ranked. Which, again, could be solved by actually posting about them instead of blowing up with all of these needlessly aggressive comments.

Anyway I agree with ditching D rank because the line between D and E is way too vague, but I don't see why integrity of the list is taken away just because some bad Pokemon are still ranked. Opinions and the general metagame are constantly changing, so if something's still ranked when it shouldn't be, just nominate it down instead of treating it like it's some kind of absurd embarrassment.

 

[skies]

Honestly I'd advocate getting rid of D-rank all together. The line between "good and maybe wants a rank" and "good but doesn't need a rank" is so blurry it's difficult to come up with solid reasons for why say Bronzor and Volbeat should stay but Slowpoke or Murkrow should go. At that stage a good player can get just about anything to work, and it becomes less about the mon than about individual people who used it. It's not really helpful having this rank at all and it just causes controversy when something extremely niche is nominated. C- should be the minimum standard for ranking imo, with D only being for NU mons that are super bad and shouldn't be used (like Muk). I can't think of one D-rank mon I would recommend to someone apart from like Probopass if you're running Dragons or Linoone, or Flareon or Frillish for stall teams. As it stands there's no real reason for D-rank existing apart from being some sort of "approved memes" list.

Regarding Lopunny I still think Cosmic Pass has potential; it could take Frogadier's spot in C- in my opinion as the strategy seems pretty consistent and Lopunny is a pretty good user of Cosmic Power + Baton Pass due to its good speed and bulk. Frogadier is one of those borderline meme mons imo; sure you can get it to work, but I'd never recommend it as a general option to anyone over say Floatzel or Garbodor. You could also move Stoutland + Hippo to C- under this logic as Sand is still somewhat effective as a strategy.

for what it's worth, stabmons does just a 'c rank' since so many niches exist that fitting them all into d would allude to them being usable. it's worked effectively

 

[MemeMeme Island]

Malamar up to A

So many Pokemon are Superpower fodder for it that it's incredible. After 2 boosts it becomes obnoxious. Garbodor has been more common, and while Garbodor can set up Spikes on it it's still Superpower and RestTalk fodder for it. Malamar also has a good defensive typing, outside of Scyther and Signal Beam Mesprit it can take a hit even at 0+ after Stealth Rock damage. Not really much else to say other than it's incredibly easy for it to get boosts and then with RestTalk it becomes really annoying to beat after that.

 

[boxofkangaroos]

Manectric: B -> B+ or A-

I was shocked to see this mon ranked so low. First off, Manectric sits in a great speed tier. It's only really outsped by Liepard, Pyroar, Tauros, and Swellow (and Scarfers), and with a Life Orb boosting its Special Attack to great levels, it can act as a fantastic cleaner, revenge killer, and wallbreaker against Offense and Balance. It is probably the most reliable Volt Switch user in the tier, which allows it to gain momentum on its side and form a very effective Volt-Turn core with Swellow, Scyther, and/or Archeops. I've used Manectric on multiple teams lately, and it has consistently proved to be a threat against many teams.

Some calcs to put Manectric's power in perspective:

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 195-230 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hitmonchan: 152-179 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dry Skin Jynx: 286-338 (105.5 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 364-432 (103.7 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[cyanize]

Manectric: B -> B+ or A-

I was shocked to see this mon ranked so low. First off, Manectric sits in a great speed tier. It's only really outsped by Liepard, Pyroar, Tauros, and Swellow (and Scarfers), and with a Life Orb boosting its Special Attack to great levels, it can act as a fantastic cleaner, revenge killer, and wallbreaker against Offense and Balance.

See, the problem with Manectric being outsped by Tauros, Archeops, Pyroar, Liepard, Swellow, and Floatzel is that those mons are some of the premier mons on offense, and exactly the type of things Manectric would want to switch around on. This makes it hard for Manectric to clean weakened offensive teams since if any of these mons are still alive, it means that Manectric won't be finishing off the entire team and will instead be giving a free turn to these potent attackers/disruptors. Yes, most other Volt Switchers have a similar problem, but they at least being some defensive utility to the table, meaning they aren't always forced out versus faster things. Manectric has no such luxury.

It is probably the most reliable Volt Switch user in the tier, which allows it to gain momentum on its side and form a very effective Volt-Turn core with Swellow, Scyther, and/or Archeops. I've used Manectric on multiple teams lately, and it has consistently proved to be a threat against many teams.

Manectric most definitely isn't the most reliable Volt Switcher in the tier; that honor goes almost indisputably to Rotom. The problem with Manectric is that its coverage is pretty one-dimensional and rather weak, and it has no utility outside of absorbing electricity and Volt Switching, making it a rather subpar choice for an offensive Volt Switcher. In most cases I would want to use Manectric, I would much rather use Scarf Rotom (or pretty much any variant of Rotom for that matter) since it does the same thing, only a decent bit weaker (which doesn't hugely matter since the point of VSwitch is to chip damage and gain momentum, not big damage) but can actually wall things such as Iron Tail Tauros, Steelix, non-LO Chan, and Garbodor, spread burns, and actually outspeeds the big offensive threats out speeding all unboosted relevent mons and most other Scarfers as well. Manectric on the other hand is much easier to stop, since priority like Sucker Punch is guaranteed to hit it, it's not even faster than everything it wants to be, and is walled easily by a lot of common and some uncommon Balance mons; MAudino, Piloswine, Lanturn, Claydol, Hariyama, and Camerupt among others all comfortably stop Manectric, with a couple having the bonus of even stopping its Volt Switch.

Some calcs to put Manectric's power in perspective:

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 195-230 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hitmonchan: 152-179 (63 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dry Skin Jynx: 286-338 (105.5 - 124.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 364-432 (103.7 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

That's not a very fair representation of Manectric's power imo; most of those mons would die to moves of those types anyways (calcing LO HP Grass vs a Rhydon, or a Fire move vs Jynx) or aren't going to take strong special hits in the first place. A better representation would be versus mons with average or above average bulk on the special side to show that Manectric can hit a wide array of neutral targets that other Volt Switchers can't; however, Rotom's Thunderbolt (and by extension, every other Volt Switcher in the tier) also 2hko most of the targets Manectric is aiming at, while also bringing more to the table than an Electric immunity. All in all, it's just a rather meh Volt Switcher that is outclassed by Rotom and doesn't even really do much of a better job than the ones in B- either.

 

[ryan]

I don't agree that Rotom is outright better.

Scarf is the only Rotom set that allows it to push through the offensive Pokemon that were listed above, which does considerably worse against nearly every defensive Pokemon in the tier than Manectric does. This is obvious; a Scarf Pokemon is not going to hit as hard as a Life Orb Pokemon with higher Special Attack. This, alongside Manectric's room for HP Grass on its set, allows it to take on bulky Ground-types considerably easier, which is important for any Electric-type. The Rotom set that actually can break down Ground-types (Spooky Plate Hex) is slower than Manectric, which means the only way it can take on those offensive Pokemon is if it already got up a Substitute on something else.

Having said all this, Rotom is much better in this metagame and certainly deserves to be higher in ranking. But the comparison between the two isn't fair because there are merits to both and you use them for different reasons. I actually haven't ever used Manectric, so I don't have much to say on its placement!

 

[Deeerpz]

The issue with Manectric to me is that what he does just isn't really commonly needed in NU. If you want Volt Switchers, Rotom is generally more reliable against offensive mons and can still trick walls to cripple them, then there's stuff like Specs Electrode and even Zebstrika who happens to be quite fast, too, and almost equally threatening. That's not mentioning Lanturn, who happens to be one of the best Volt Switchers of the tier in my opinion. I know he fulfills a different role, but generally speaking, there are other mons I would prefer in most cases when it comes to Volt Switch. And as a strong special attacker, he doesn't particularly stand out against the likes of Pyroar, who happens to be a bit faster, a bit stronger, and sports not one but two stabs, one of which bypasses substitutes.

I think his biggest issue is that his typing isn't amazing offensively in NU, and the stuff it would theoretically be good against is either too fast for him to abuse his strong STAB electric moves, like Floatzel or Swellow, or don't die to his stuff anyways. Doesn't particularly help NU is plastered with amazing electric immunities, all of which are threatening Manectric heavily. HP Grass only does ~65% to standard rocks Rhydon, Steelix potentially has sturdy to live the overheat, Lanturn comes in for basically free and starts firing off scalds.

All of these things considered, there aren't many niches left to fill for Manectric. He kind of suffers from similar issues like Evire, who sounds amazing in theory, but ends up being subpar in most situations.

That's just my 2ct on the issue though.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Cryogonal C- ---> C

I know a lot of people dunk on this mon because of its low defense and terrible defensive typing but I feel a lot of people over exaggerate this. First of all this Pokemon is actually usable and doesn't require a massive amount of support like its other roommates such as Pawniard and Frogadier. Instead it acts as a glue mom for stall that would like hazard control that isn't weak to Ground (see skuntank) while also checking Water-types with Freeze-Dry. Even movesets that run Reflect give your team more opportunities to switch around on prominate threats like Tauros and Scyther. Cryogonal also can lure in checks like Magmortor and Thick Fat Hariyama and hit them with toxic which makes it a lot easort for your team to play around these wallbreakers. I also mentioned earlier that your Poison-type slot isnt dedicated to Skuntank which opens up a door for a better defensive Poison like Vileplume, Garbodor, or Roselia (no Defog of on your side :]) While Cryogonal isn't going to perform its job the best people, really spit on this mon while it was still in the tier and I think it deserves a little bit more recognition.

 

[yogi]

Vivillon > A+

Seriously, this thing seems to be overlooked in terms of how potent it is to unprepared teams, or a team lacking a solid way of checking it. Whilst a lot of its sets are quite average, I find that sub viv personally tears through a large portion of the meta-game with relative ease. I know the argument can be made that it needs more support then the other quiver dancer in the A ranks, lilligant, which is true to an extent; but it's able to make up for that by being extremely hard to actually check once it's in on something that can't deal with it. And unlike with lilli, it's sleep powder has an accuracy of 39/40 in comparison to 30/40, which in my opinion is pretty big in terms of wanting to reliably put something to sleep. I can understand why people may be against this nomination, but I currently think viv is fantastic in this meta.

 

[PrinceLucian]

A > A-/B
With Combusken niche in being able to use the combination of speed boost+baton pass gone, Combusken just remains being a pretty mediocre fire type pokemon, with having to run protect in attempt to outspeed faster pokemon, which pretty much gives opponent a free turn to switch out in its check/counters, its accuracy is also shaky between fire blast/focus blast, and physical set is so easy to wear down. It also has a really average sp.atk compared to other fire types like pyroar/zard/magmortar, and all of these have great coverage moves while pyroar has a cool double stab and hyper voice being 100% accuracy. Combusken isnt a bad pokemon by any means, but its rather average.

B- > C
Like,really,I cant remember last time i saw gourgeist-Small.Its outclassed by gourgeist large defensively, and its niche in fast leech SubSeed isnt that useful. Grass/fire types are also very common and it cant get pass xatu.

A- > A
Great defensive pokemon with good defensive typing and ability which gives it immunity to water and electric types. Gastrodon just doesnt die unless opponent has strong wallbreakers/Hp grass users. Having reliable recovery ,decent stats makes it one of the best defensive walls in tier, and with Clear smog can stop some of the setup sweepers.

C- > Unranked
Frogadier is completely outclassed by every other water in NU tier.From wallbreakers like Samurott to fastest late game cleaners like floatzel, frogadier just cant find its place in NU teams. Samurott also offers some decent bulk, and with A-jet priority and megahorn it can check pokemon like malamar/archeops. Frogadier may learn t-spikes, but its really frail to utilize it, its bulk is pretty bad that it will mostly faint after setting up a layer,and only reason to use it would be later game to clean weaken threats, which float usually does better since the speed tier.

C- > Unranked
Similar to combusken, ninjask niche was mostly being a baton pass user that kept it ranked. Every other set is done better by both choice band and choice scarfed scyther. Even scarfed scyther hits harder than banded ninjask because its stabs like bug bite/aerial ace are both boosted by technician, it also learns useful moves like knock off that cripples its switchins,which ninjask doesnt. Ninjask also has a terrible bulk which makes it even more vulnerable to priority moves, and usually requires a hazard removal, which in most cases wont pay off because its so bad in this metagame, and aggron/gastro moving down didnt help it at all, while sceptile long time gone was one of the reasons to use it.


-i agree with garbodor nomination to S since it rly leaves huge impact on tier and its definitely the best and most reliable spiker rn, and theres no real downside of using it.

 

[Froggyboy]

to C/C-:
Can this thing move down? It finds little chances to set up a Nasty Plot, wittles down far too quick from Life Orb recoil and hazards, which may also apply to the other Fire types in the tier, but they aren't hard pressed to set up in order to find their niche and the one that is(Charizard) has reliable recovery. Passho Berry is cute, but then it hits like a wet piece of paper. I'm nomming this thing down so low because I can't really see any reason to use this thing, since if I wanted a Fire type that can break through Hariyama, I'd use Zard or Pyroar with Will-O-Wisp.

 

[Funbot28]

Leaving my thoughts on some noms:

A+ ---> S (Agree)

I definitely agree that Garbador is the best utility mon in the tier right now thanks to how easy it can be placed on teams and the ability to threaten out other hazard setters in Steelix and Rhydon with Focus Blast and Seed Bomb respectively. It also has an easier time setting up Spikes versus common balance teams that have are gaining popularity atm, and can keep the hazards up relatively easily due to the fact that NU is lacking proper hazard removal, with our best options atm being Xatu and Hitmonchan which both don't appreciate switching in on Garbador. Definitely agree on its rise.

A ---> A+ (Agree)

Vivillion is a mon that I have been seen used a lot on the suspect ladder and for very good reasons. Its arguable one of the deadliest setup sweepers in the tier along with Lilligant, Samurott, and Barbaracle thanks to Sleep Powder giving it so much setup opportunities and the strength of boosted Hurricanes wrecking a tier with a lack of good Flying switchins that do not get hammered by Grass-type coverage besides AV Magmortar. However, it does have that god awful defensive typing that gives it a 4x SR weakness in conjunction with its poor Defense that leaves it vulnerable to priority moves. But I feel all of its positives outweigh the immense offensive pressure it provides, which I believe warrants a raise in rank.

A- ---> A (Disagree)

Malamar is a scary poke don't get me wrong, however I defintelty don't feel that it has gotten better especially after the recent Speed Pass ban. Without those crucial speed boosts it was able to receive before, Malamr sits at a pretty awkward speed tier for a semi-offensive sweeper. Checks to it such as Scyther, Mega Audino, Mesprit, etc.. are also very common mons that are all able to threaten Malamar out and make it lose the offensive momentum. Its defensive typing also isn't all that impressive which makes its RestTalk set difficult to pull off at least with my experience with it.

A ---> A-/B+ (Agree)

So after the recent Speed Pass ban, Combusken has lost a lot of its utility and now is forced to run either full physical or full special sets now (mixed can work but ehh) which means that it must rely on its pretty average offensive stats and shaky accuracy on its STABs. This is troublesome as now Combusken's niche now conflicts with other Fire-type wallbreakers such as Charizard and Pyroar, although it does have the advantage of having that nice Fighting-typing. Its still very good at weakening offense, but losing speed pass did impact its viability and it should drop because of this. Im leaning towards A- more than B+.

A- ---> A (Agree)

Gastrodon is an amazing defensive glue mon right now checking so many threats such as Samurott, Magmortar, Lanturn Pyroar, Charizard, etc... with its amazing defensive typing and good support options such as Toxic, Clear Smog, and Recover. It also has great offensive power which means that it does not make it too passive. Really is a great mon for balance teams.

 

[boltsandbombers]

So, none of the regular nominations this time around are going to be followed through with, but I do have a significant revamp of the lower rankings to share which the council spent some time discussing. Essentially, D rank is going to be solely for Pokemon that are NU by usage but are significantly more trouble than benefit by putting them on a team. In order to do this, some Pokemon from the current D rank moved up to C- and some got unranked with our voting. Lastly, E rank will be removed as well.

Frogadier C- -> UR
Muk C- -> D
Arbok D -> UR
Bronzor D -> C-
Crustle D -> UR
Flareon D -> C-
Huntail D -> UR
Frillish D -> UR
Hippopotas / Stoutland D -> C-
Leavanny D -> UR
Probopass D -> C-
Marowak D -> UR
Volbeat D -> UR

Two other things I'd like to comment on:

All of the nominations made after yogibears' post on Vivillon will be voted on in the next slate, they will not be ignored. While none of the nominations from this current slate were followed through with, I'd like to use these nominations as discussion points (in addition to the ones already made in the previous few posts):

Garbodor A+ -> S
Cryogonal C- -> C

Looking at the post above there is something I'd like to point out:

Gastrodon is an amazing defensive glue mon right now checking so many threats such as Samurott, Magmortar, Lanturn Pyroar, Charizard, etc... with its amazing defensive typing and good support options such as Toxic, Clear Smog, and Recover. It also has great offensive power which means that it does not make it too passive. Really is a great mon for balance teams.

We all know exactly what Gastrodon does and what Pokemon it checks, but in order for your argument of it rising from A- to A to be valid you can't just state the obvious facts, its really important to compare the Pokemon in question to other Pokemon in the rank you think it should move to. For example, if you think that Gastrodon should rise to A from A-, you should give valid points arguing that it is more splashable than the likes of Hariyama, Ludicolo, Malamar, etc and that it holds as much value to a team as Xatu, Steelix, Scyther, etc. This logic in general should be applied to most if not all nominations in general because just saying "this is good because it does this and this" really just doesn't cut it.