Gen VII: Pokémon Sun and Moon (New info Post #5834)

[Siggu]

Is that really a big thing when a VGC Player has used an illegal Pokeball but the Pokemon was legal. I really do not understand why people get so furious about those minor things which do not give an impact to a battle. And also I blame Youtuber Verlisfy for making up so much drama about hacking Pokemon in VGC and generally talking trash about that topic of cheating. If a Player's conscious allows him or her to use hacked stuff than it is fine.

Because if the Pokeball is not legit, then the Pokemon in it isn't either.

 

[Kurona]

Is that really a big thing when a VGC Player has used an illegal Pokeball but the Pokemon was legal. I really do not understand why people get so furious about those minor things which do not give an impact to a battle. And also I blame Youtuber Verlisfy for making up so much drama about hacking Pokemon in VGC and generally talking trash about that topic of cheating. If a Player's conscious allows him or her to use hacked stuff than it is fine.

I personally don't have that big a problem with it, I'm simply using it as an example of VGC's hack checks failing.
Honestly it's a really simple situation and misunderstanding. Ray Rizzo (at least I'm sure that's the guy with the Aegislash) innocently didn't know that the Aegislash had an illegal ball; it was simply passed down from a mother Aegislash he had traded to him. And VGC just didn't see anything wrong with it - which makes sense, because there was nothing wrong with it. It didn't have it's base stats or abilities changed or anything; everything about this Aegislash was perfectly legal aside from the ball. There's no villains here, just a few people that after the fact probably went "whoops".

 

[aybekay]

As long as the rest of the Pokemon is legal what changes it from a Aegislash in a regular Pokeball which was breeded ?

 

[IcyMan28]

Is that really a big thing when a VGC Player has used an illegal Pokeball but the Pokemon was legal. I really do not understand why people get so furious about those minor things which do not give an impact to a battle. And also I blame Youtuber Verlisfy for making up so much drama about hacking Pokemon in VGC and generally talking trash about that topic of cheating. If a Player's conscious allows him or her to use hacked stuff than it is fine.

For some reason people are attached to the idea that you should raise your bits of data from scratch. Even though hacking the Pokemon or parents or whatever has no impact on the actual competitive part of the game.

The point about in-game leveling is a good one. Both XY and ORAS were pretty disappointing in terms of trainers to grind on, although the secret bases did make up for that somewhat. I'm hoping we get a good level curve late into the game and once again have an all-powerful trainer to fight such as HGSS Red or B2W2 Cynthia.

 

[Taistelu]

If a Player's conscious allows him or her to use hacked stuff than it is fine.

I disagree with this sentiment. I disagree on the foundation that people are taking shortcuts to do something other's are putting hard work into. It's essentially an unfair advantage.

Wait a second... I think the presence of Hyper Training has a secondary implication as well:

Most of the previous generations have content for Pokémon up to level 70-80 or thereabout. For in-game purposes, there are very, very few reasons to train a Pokémon all the way to level 100 (those very, very few reasons being that some legendaries have level-up moves at level 100). In-game opponents therefore cap out at level 60-65, maybe a few daily trainers have 'mons at levels above 70, and some very, very powerful challenge trainers cross the 80 mark. With no reason to level up something to level 100, there's no efficient way to do it either. You may go to '100 if you want, but the road is long and there's little to gather at its end.

With Hyper Training, though, the games give an explicit reason for you to level up a Pokémon that far. It encourages trainers to walk the distance, and therefore it might provide a convenient way to do so as well. True, it's been a while since the games became an epic grind-fest from level 60 onwards or so (GSC and RSE, anyone?), but even in XY it takes a while to get to level 100. SuMo might raise the level bar again to avoid excessive grinding. Perhaps Game Freak even caves and gives us in-game opponents with 'mons at level 100, or at least above the 90 mark. I definitely wouldn't mind battles which give my top trained 'mons a bit of a challenge.

Another thing is the definite admission to everybody that IVs do exist, that some IVs combinations are plainly better than others, and that you're ideally looking for 31 across the board as a rule of thumb (Trick Room and such nonwithstanding). They have had fixed-IV giveaways of Pokémons in generations past already (the Ralts traded to you from Diantha in XY, for instance), so there's a possibility they'll just peg some giveaways 'mons and legendaries to 6x31 IVs already. Hyper Training is a measure to combat excessive grinding, re-setting and hours of discarding Pokémon in the hunt for something optimal. Might as well make the new shortcut as short as possible.

Lastly, if my Bottle Caps theory is correct - that there are different kinds of Bottle Caps with different degrees of usefulness - we might look forward to find a lot more stuff in trash cans, which I'm pretty sure I'm not the only person obsessively checking every time I find a new one. Even if it's nothing more than the Hyper Training equivalent of a Clever Wing, I'd be glad to see anything else than "the trash can is empty" in 95 % of all cases.

Just want to say if story leveling increases I'd be all for it. XY already had much higher levels than previous games. I'm not sure if I'd like it to go all the way completely and have the Champion have Levels 95-100 but an increase in levels would be great.

And yeah I'm going to be checking every trash can in Gen VII, for both Bottle Caps and habit.

 

[QuickBH]

I'm actually wondering how we even get Tapu Koko. I mean, the gym leader has it (at a sick level 60, mind you) and you're shown fighting it. It makes me really curious.

 

[Kurona]

As long as the rest of the Pokemon is legal what changes it from a Aegislash in a regular Pokeball which was breeded ?

Nothing.

 

[peaswar]

I'm actually wondering how we even get Tapu Koko. I mean, the gym leader has it (at a sick level 60, mind you) and you're shown fighting it. It makes me really curious.

The gym leader? I can say with 100% certainty that we don't know any gym leaders, let alone hala being one

 

[Vivmeister10]

I think my greatest worry right now concerning Vikavolt is that against Wimpod it was shown at LV 25, that being the lowest level it was shown at.
Hoping it's still a decent competitive mon I just don't like the image in my brain of getting Vikavolt at LV 20-25

 

[Kurona]

I think my greatest worry right now concerning Vikavolt is that against Wimpod it was shown at LV 25, that being the lowest level it was shown at.
Hoping it's still a decent competitive mon I just don't like the image in my brain of getting Vikavolt at LV 20-25

That brings up a pretty good point, actually... we were all assuming it'd be great because it'd be a late evolver. Hmmm. Well, there's still some hope... right?

 

[Project_Mars]

Hide

Hack checks allowed the illegal combination of Aegislash + Dream Ball to go through. They're really not that good; they just check if you have something that is impossible to get in the game or not.

Like Dream Ball Aegislash? lol

Official hack checks are terrible at recognizing hacks.

Because if the Pokeball is not legit, then the Pokemon in it isn't either.

People are still upset over this? It always seemed like a bit of a non-issue to me: Dream Balls pass down, and someone goofed when giving him a pokemon to breed with, so it is a pretty honest mistake. (Why is a ghost sword gendered, btw?) It's definitely not much different than the thousands of breeding dittos that are floating around, since it is the same concept, so I'm guessing y'all have issues with those too. Good thing you'll be able to legitimately get those in Sun/Moon though.

 

[DHR-107]

I think my greatest worry right now concerning Vikavolt is that against Wimpod it was shown at LV 25, that being the lowest level it was shown at.
Hoping it's still a decent competitive mon I just don't like the image in my brain of getting Vikavolt at LV 20-25

That brings up a pretty good point, actually... we were all assuming it'd be great because it'd be a late evolver. Hmmm. Well, there's still some hope... right?

I immediately saw this when I watched the trailers back. Then I realised that the Charjabug match is at level 50 which doesn't help at all to work out what goes where and when. Only thing I can hope of is that Charjabug -> Vikavolt is either A) Friendship like Swadloon B) some other evolution mechanic or C) It just evolves at like Lv 12 into Charjabug and then at 25 into Vikavolt, which would be low but not totally unheard of.

SM is doing a lot of things that are very odd compared to other gens so far... The amount of possible standalone Pokemon is also very high. In fact, a number of the Pokemon shown could possible be single stage.

Can we stop with the VGC/Hack checking stuff and the talk about bottle caps? Stop making a big deal over it. We don't even know fully how the mechanic works apart from changing IVs.

 

[peaswar]

I immediately saw this when I watched the trailers back. Then I realised that the Charjabug match is at level 50 which doesn't help at all to work out what goes where and when. Only thing I can hope of is that Charjabug -> Vikavolt is either A) Friendship like Swadloon B) some other evolution mechanic or C) It just evolves at like Lv 12 into Charjabug and then at 25 into Vikavolt, which would be low but not totally unheard of.

SM is doing a lot of things that are very odd compared to other gens so far... The amount of possible standalone Pokemon is also very high. In fact, a number of the Pokemon shown could possible be single stage.

Can we stop with the VGC/Hack checking stuff and the talk about bottle caps? Stop making a big deal over it. We don't even know fully how the mechanic works apart from changing IVs.

and as we know, most pokemon in the trailers appear at benchmark levels(25,35,50,100), and it wouldn't be the first time that a pokemon that evolves at a certain level has been shown at a lower level in a trailer.

Still, a pokemon that's a friken rail gun doesn't deserve being PU pokemon fodder

 

[Project_Mars]

and as we know, most pokemon in the trailers appear at benchmark levels(25,35,50,100), and it wouldn't be the first time that a pokemon that evolves at a certain level has been shown at a lower level in a trailer.

Still, a pokemon that's a friken rail gun doesn't deserve being PU pokemon fodder

I think that's mostly to keep people guessing as to what level it'll evolve at. I don't think Vikavolt will settle that low. Galvantula is UU, so if it has comparable or better stats and a decent movepool we could see it around there.

 

[peaswar]

I think that's mostly to keep people guessing as to what level it'll evolve at. I don't think Vikavolt will settle that low. Galvantula is UU, so if it has comparable or better stats and a decent movepool we could see it around there.

yeah but galvantula only warrents uu because of sticky web, a move that would make no sense on a rail gun/ firefly/ stag beetle.Not to mention a pokemon that evolves at level 36 would be superior to one that evolves at 25, because 25 correlates to the third gym, while 36 to the 4th or 5th, and very rarely to the third if you grind. Therefore, a pokemon that evolves at a superior level has superior competetive potential in a extremely general sense. Harder to evolve = Better in general

 

[Not2good]

I don't know if this has been said but I really hope in this generation that if a mon has levitate as it's ability that it can have other abilities. Every Pokemon with levitate has only levitate and no hidden ability. Even the mega Lati twins have just levitate. I doubt that mons with levitate will get another ability but one can only hope.

Wait just checked and noticed Bronzong and Bronzor are the only exceptions

 

[Nokocchi]

yeah but galvantula only warrents uu because of sticky web, a move that would make no sense on a rail gun/ firefly/ stag beetle.Not to mention a pokemon that evolves at level 36 would be superior to one that evolves at 25, because 25 correlates to the third gym, while 36 to the 4th or 5th, and very rarely to the third if you grind. Therefore, a pokemon that evolves at a superior level has superior competetive potential in a extremely general sense. Harder to evolve = Better in general

But most of the starters(not including mega evolutions) are pretty garbage, especially the 2nd and 5th gen ones.

 

[Gabe]

Why do people always have to tier things we have like, zero information about in this thread? The only real downside to no leaks for a couple of days is that people can't stay OT.

 

[Wishy]

Well, isn't this whole ethical issue regarding hacking rather a YMMV stuff? I'm still in the spectrum of "no hacks!", but I know many people somehow justify it, so I suppose to debate on such thing is useless.

Randomised IV was actually a good concept as I remember reading a Trainer Tips sign somewhere that each Pokemon is unique (well, maybe in-game), but then it is broken as players realise how to get most optimal monster and GF keep introducing ways to get optimal monster that is still not that optimal. The result until now is well... eugenics. IV system is only good when they have great security and never tells that IV even exist beyond "each Pokemon is unique".

Can people stop dramatically dropping " eugenics" as some kind moral pull in this discussion? Given the historical context of eugenics, I almost find it kind of offensive you would bring it up in relation to Pokémon. Like... this isn't real life, or even close to it.

 

[hypno28]

Can people stop dramatically dropping " eugenics" as some kind moral pull in this discussion? Given the historical context of eugenics, I almost find it kind of offensive you would bring it up in relation to Pokémon. Like... this isn't real life, or even close to it.

Don't be such a baby. It's perfectly valid for people to consider whether something in a game is analogous to real-life eugenics (and also perfectly fine for that game to continue having that thing even if it is).

 

[Doubt]

Can people stop dramatically dropping " eugenics" as some kind moral pull in this discussion? Given the historical context of eugenics, I almost find it kind of offensive you would bring it up in relation to Pokémon. Like... this isn't real life, or even close to it.

Don't be such a baby. It's perfectly valid for people to consider whether something in a game is analogous to real-life eugenics (and also perfectly fine for that game to continue having that thing even if it is).

IMO this is more like dog breeding than eugenics, and I don't think anyone really has a problem with dog breeding.
A quick google search shows this on eugenics (taken from Wikipedia's page)
"It is a social philosophy advocating the improvement of human genetic traits" (Emphasis mine). Long story short, it is incorrect for people to compare this to eugenics, as eugenics is specific to humans, and pokemon are not human.

 

[locoghoul]

If a Player's conscious allows him or her to use hacked stuff than it is fine.

Not surprised to see this coming from a guy that was WiFi blacklisted and then subsequently banned from Smogon. Nice alt tho

 

[Xander of Nohr]

IMO this is more like dog breeding than eugenics, and I don't think anyone really has a problem with dog breeding.

ACTUALLY if we're talking about selective breeding AKA pedigree, a lot of people have a problem with it—myself included. That's the reason why we've got abominations like Pugs, which are basically walking meat balls of genetic disorders due to excessive inbreeding. It is a slap in Evolution’s face when traits are selected for appearance, not functionality. But, that's neither here nor there and heavily out of topic lol. I just needed to put this out there because, as a formerly vet student, this topic still triggers a whole hell outta me.

Anyhow, can we please stop with the 'hack dis, hack dat' discourses and call outs going on?

 

[pharaohcalvin]

For some reason people are attached to the idea that you should raise your bits of data from scratch. Even though hacking the Pokemon or parents or whatever has no impact on the actual competitive part of the game.

The point about in-game leveling is a good one. Both XY and ORAS were pretty disappointing in terms of trainers to grind on, although the secret bases did make up for that somewhat. I'm hoping we get a good level curve late into the game and once again have an all-powerful trainer to fight such as HGSS Red or B2W2 Cynthia.

I think the blissey bases more then make up for it. I can get pokemon from 1 to 100 in less then 2 hours.

 

[Theorymon]

Man I just realized that with all this Bottle Cap business, for the first time ever I may actually choose my starter based on how good they are online. I mean granted, there are Hidden Abilities and Egg moves to consider, so I'll probably pick the one mon that doesn't need an egg move or a hidden ability. I think I might make my entire team consist of new Pokemon too for similar reasons.

Speaking of new Pokemon, another thought has occured to me: A lot of Nintendo's biggest games now a days have preloading. Now, assuming Pokemon Sun and Moon are able to be preloaded, would it be possible to extract Pokemon data from a preloaded games? Of course considering how all the ORAS stuff leaked a month ahead of time because of a demo, I could see Gamefreak being weary... but I am curious about the idea that we could have concrete information ahead of the release date, unlike XY!