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Finals World Cup of Pokemon XI - Finals [Won by Team USA East]
- Thread starter M Dragon
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In the effort to be transparent, I've attempted to talk through concerns with a large part of the community today in private. It's difficult to keep up in a large thread like this one which moves quickly, but if I've missed you and you have a particular concern that you believe I can elucidate on or discuss further, please, as always, don't hesitate to PM me here, on SmogTours or Skype or Discord or any of them.
The main concern I am seeing throughout these posts is the nature that the information was obtained. I am going to pose a question that, if written without a disclaimer, would come across as entirely insincere, but I'd like to assure anyone reading of my complete and utter sincerity in writing it: what should we have done with that information?
The way that I see it, there was a "scandalous" part on either end of the situation. 1) if we had taken the information and methodically gone through it (as was the case in what happened), we give tacit credence to the hacker and validate their effort in some way. 2) if we had done nothing with the information and it came out eventually (as it always would) that we had received 100% firm evidence that team Germany engaged in these behaviors, there would be accusations of favoritism and misapplication of the public rules (especially considering there is a number of Tournament Community Darlings implicated)
I see a third option tentatively posed in this thread, that being: "soft" ban the users, don't make a public announcement for it, speak to them and reason with them privately. There's definitely some merit to this, and it is an option that I think we could have reviewed further (I speak for myself only when saying this, I don't know what the other TD Team Members think about this option). The negative part to this side though is that we would eventually have to explain why German members cannot play in tournaments, and I think surely the hacker (who is, most certainly, a part of this community) would catch on pretty quickly that his efforts were vindicated. I do however appreciate the idea that there was a more tactful way in which this could have been handled, and am open to feedback in order to have a learning moment should something of this nature happen again going forward (please, god, no).
I hope that I come across as completely and 100% sincere and honest in saying that I think this was handled to the best of our abilities. As I've learned in my life, career, and interpersonal relationships, there is not a perfect answer ready for every situation, and in some cases even the "best" answer can remain elusive. I'd like to take in community feedback about this incident, any critiques and criticisms of how I (or we, though I hesitate to speak for everyone) handled it and how best to approach similar situations in the future. I took the badge because I want to bring the best environment possible to the rest of you, so that everyone - from a 3 post wonder to the guy who's been grinding in ST since 2005 - can have an enjoyable tournament experience. Shaka Brah is right - it's a community focused game, for the most part we all play only because we enjoy hanging out and shooting the shit with one another, and I'm realizing quite quickly that the "line" and how to foster a good environment is quite thin and difficult to land on.
So I'll reiterate once more, please feel free to reach out to me any time and I'd be more than glad to discuss any concerns, and will take any constructive criticism and apply it appropriately in my dealings as a Tournament Director going forward.
The main concern I am seeing throughout these posts is the nature that the information was obtained. I am going to pose a question that, if written without a disclaimer, would come across as entirely insincere, but I'd like to assure anyone reading of my complete and utter sincerity in writing it: what should we have done with that information?
The way that I see it, there was a "scandalous" part on either end of the situation. 1) if we had taken the information and methodically gone through it (as was the case in what happened), we give tacit credence to the hacker and validate their effort in some way. 2) if we had done nothing with the information and it came out eventually (as it always would) that we had received 100% firm evidence that team Germany engaged in these behaviors, there would be accusations of favoritism and misapplication of the public rules (especially considering there is a number of Tournament Community Darlings implicated)
I see a third option tentatively posed in this thread, that being: "soft" ban the users, don't make a public announcement for it, speak to them and reason with them privately. There's definitely some merit to this, and it is an option that I think we could have reviewed further (I speak for myself only when saying this, I don't know what the other TD Team Members think about this option). The negative part to this side though is that we would eventually have to explain why German members cannot play in tournaments, and I think surely the hacker (who is, most certainly, a part of this community) would catch on pretty quickly that his efforts were vindicated. I do however appreciate the idea that there was a more tactful way in which this could have been handled, and am open to feedback in order to have a learning moment should something of this nature happen again going forward (please, god, no).
I hope that I come across as completely and 100% sincere and honest in saying that I think this was handled to the best of our abilities. As I've learned in my life, career, and interpersonal relationships, there is not a perfect answer ready for every situation, and in some cases even the "best" answer can remain elusive. I'd like to take in community feedback about this incident, any critiques and criticisms of how I (or we, though I hesitate to speak for everyone) handled it and how best to approach similar situations in the future. I took the badge because I want to bring the best environment possible to the rest of you, so that everyone - from a 3 post wonder to the guy who's been grinding in ST since 2005 - can have an enjoyable tournament experience. Shaka Brah is right - it's a community focused game, for the most part we all play only because we enjoy hanging out and shooting the shit with one another, and I'm realizing quite quickly that the "line" and how to foster a good environment is quite thin and difficult to land on.
So I'll reiterate once more, please feel free to reach out to me any time and I'd be more than glad to discuss any concerns, and will take any constructive criticism and apply it appropriately in my dealings as a Tournament Director going forward.
Hacking and even blackmailing guys just to get proofs of the same offense most other teams do in WCOP or SPL...never seen before. The shitstorm here was predictable but more important is the question about the hacker? Isn't it possible to retrace that guy who gave you this illegal obtained information?!
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If it was, do you really think TDs wouldnt had already done it?
Not sure about their priority.
Not to be...whatever, but in your hypothetical scenario there's the off chance that a friend of the German team would investigate, find out that bluri was indeed hacked, and post his findings, which would look really bad for the TDs (at best it looks like they knew that the evidence was obtained 'illegally' but still let it slide, at worst it looks like the TDs organised the whole thing, and there's nothing you guys would say that could stop the shitstorm that would follow).
I definitely do agree though, that team Germany deserved what happened to them - 'they cheated, it's that simple', and whatever evidence there was, the verdict had to happen (they broke the rules, and it would look awful if they got away on a technicality). What's upsetting about it is two things - one of them being the precedent set that smogon will take evidence regardless of the source - I don't think that people trying to hack each other's accounts will become a widespread problem on the scale of ghosting, but it very well may become a major problem or it may escalate - It's only one step between a person hacking into another's account and them using that backdoor access to 'forge' logs that would imply ghosting was taking place when really there was none (and as shown, the hacker actually tried to blackmail bluri with the logs, which is even worse), and I really think that you should have tried to track down the hacker before issuing the sentence (if only to make an example that such a thing does not go).
The other thing is the sense of a glass ceiling in Smogon - that everyone ghosts but only the people who are entrenched thoroughly in the site will avoid justice (like for example njnp got banned from OST, Bouff and Mazar got banned in Grand Slam, Team Germany got banned here, but no-one's gone after Ciele for winning SmogTour or East for winning WCoP - not to imply anything but it seems like the people who are accused are less influential / tenured members of smogon). Shaka Brah probably summed it up better than me so I'll c/p his argument:
Probably a bit vitriolic but yeah, even I've seen / heard a lot of disquieting rumours and other things that if investigated would probably lead to a lot of the major players on the site (not going to name names - keep in mind though that I'm like one of this site's 'outcasts', so if I'm hearing things then it means there really is something) being banned, with the current TDs almost certainly following suit.
That said though whatever has happened there is still hope, what's needed is just harder punishment (a 6 month ban is a slap on the wrist, even a year-long ban is kinda lax considering how people have been permabanned for arguably less), and positive discouragement - as the wise teal6 said it's just a game with a large community, and we just need to remember that it's all for fun and that ghosting ruins that sense of fun (unless you're an adrenaline junkie or smth). Despite everything, the TDs probably did do their best with this, and the community should try and move forwards from this (and ghosters should fess up and / or just quit ghosting / team play / whatever they like to call it). Just my two cents. Obligatory xD or teal6 will have my soul.
The hacker contacted us on Pokemon Showdown using an alt an protecting their ip. Yes, we'd like to know who they are and I'd definitely push for their permaban if we find them. But it's not the same as someone *cough* Bloo *cough* posting on the forums on a regular basis. They are not someone who'll get several occasions to make some mistakes that will lead to their identity. We don't have the needed tools to track them down. Only legal way would be to pursue them for the hack, but there are still two problems: we can't do it in the name of bluri, and no one would care about a Skype hacking.
Also please, for the idon'tknowhowmany time, stop with the "I do know stuff but you didn't take action". If you don't contact us about it, we won't take action, and complaining about it months later is plain stupid.
I'll finish by saying the obvious: we can't investigate all rumours. No Lord Ninjax, you hearing something doesn't mean there really is something. But if you have actual reasons to believe a specific rumour is right, then you can refer to my previous point: you're plain stupid complaining now without giving us the informations (nothing personal, sorry if it felt that way but you are the perfect example with that timing)
Also please, for the idon'tknowhowmany time, stop with the "I do know stuff but you didn't take action". If you don't contact us about it, we won't take action, and complaining about it months later is plain stupid.
I'll finish by saying the obvious: we can't investigate all rumours. No Lord Ninjax, you hearing something doesn't mean there really is something. But if you have actual reasons to believe a specific rumour is right, then you can refer to my previous point: you're plain stupid complaining now without giving us the informations (nothing personal, sorry if it felt that way but you are the perfect example with that timing)
idk what you think, but plenty of "tenured / influential members" have been tour banned. look at all the people just banned, Conflict is considered one of the best tour players (especially in tiers like GSC) and has been since near the start of SPL, Cosine / xray are known for being two of the best ORAS players, and the list goes on.
Also "no-ones gone after Ciele" might be indicitive of the fact that there is nothing there. Ciele is one of the cleanest players as seen by his win post for tour where he says he built everything himself / didnt test with anyone. Just because there is no evidence and someone is in a position of power doesn't make them guilty.
It was the hacker 4chan
I know I've said it's cool that the TDs were transparent with their source of information this time, but honestly reading this thread I've begun to realize that transparency isn't necessarily a good thing in some situations.
The only worthwhile argument I've seen against using hacked information to catch ghosters is that it may encourage other people to start doing something similar in an attempt to catch other players ghosting, which is obviously a bad thing. If the TDs kept that detail hidden the risk of that happening is a lot smaller, and the probability of catching the hacker becomes higher as there's a chance they'll try harder to attain credit for what happened. Maybe I'm just crazy.
The only worthwhile argument I've seen against using hacked information to catch ghosters is that it may encourage other people to start doing something similar in an attempt to catch other players ghosting, which is obviously a bad thing. If the TDs kept that detail hidden the risk of that happening is a lot smaller, and the probability of catching the hacker becomes higher as there's a chance they'll try harder to attain credit for what happened. Maybe I'm just crazy.
You say there isn't a chance for you to identify hackers, but every evidence for cheating is welcomed without any consequences for the guys who did much more criminal things.
So it's an invitation for other users to try the same shit only because of their disappointment or anger...not only for WCoP, also in every following team tournament. Don't think that's the way we all wanna see.
honestly in future why cant we completly ban ghoster or ghostee from smogon ,pokemon showdown and everything related to pokemon and etc
the current system flawed because it didn't yet decrease the number of ghosting scandals it's time to go extreme
With this rules people will really never think of ghosting or engage in it
E
the current system flawed because it didn't yet decrease the number of ghosting scandals it's time to go extreme
With this rules people will really never think of ghosting or engage in it
E
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Why is this thread still open, and why the way the information got through is even explained ?
No shit that anything and everything will be posted. I mean I went through what ? 4 pages of shit talk and like-bait posts to see the official announcement. Great, that was fruitful.
Some of you have been watching too many american tv show, smogon isn't really responsible for anyone's security on the internet (outside of their website), they're not a justice's authority ? What are you asking from them lol.
I can't care less about how it got found, if they ghosted in an official tournament me and my mates were in, then good riddance.
As for words such as hacking and blackmail being thrown around, fine, but guys don't overreact, you can't be that green.
We all know the dude probably let other people know his pw or let it somewhere else on the internet where it shouln't be. Let that be a good reminder to everybody that if you want your stuff to be protected, then it starts by protecting it yourself.
Finally to all the cool kids saying "ghosting's everywhere anyway". Well that's exactly the type of reaction that will make ghosting be everywhere, so props to you for being very rational!
My last team tournaments, SPL and WCOP, have been as clean as it gets. And I'm glad they were.
So I won't feel sorry for anybody who broke an official rule, and you shouldn't either.
The decision seems fair to me anyway, I'm satisfied with it, and hope it will make other teams think twice.
No shit that anything and everything will be posted. I mean I went through what ? 4 pages of shit talk and like-bait posts to see the official announcement. Great, that was fruitful.
Some of you have been watching too many american tv show, smogon isn't really responsible for anyone's security on the internet (outside of their website), they're not a justice's authority ? What are you asking from them lol.
I can't care less about how it got found, if they ghosted in an official tournament me and my mates were in, then good riddance.
As for words such as hacking and blackmail being thrown around, fine, but guys don't overreact, you can't be that green.
We all know the dude probably let other people know his pw or let it somewhere else on the internet where it shouln't be. Let that be a good reminder to everybody that if you want your stuff to be protected, then it starts by protecting it yourself.
Finally to all the cool kids saying "ghosting's everywhere anyway". Well that's exactly the type of reaction that will make ghosting be everywhere, so props to you for being very rational!
My last team tournaments, SPL and WCOP, have been as clean as it gets. And I'm glad they were.
So I won't feel sorry for anybody who broke an official rule, and you shouldn't either.
The decision seems fair to me anyway, I'm satisfied with it, and hope it will make other teams think twice.
My major qualm is the #of people being tourbanned whether it be a year or for 6 months. I feel as an individual in team tours to know the proof (logs) to lead to the bans. Not to question the td's actions but as part of the community to understand to what length or how little is needed to be said to be considered ghosting. None of the banning decisions had the atleast a log of what was said to explain the ban. Its not a matter of if the td's got the decision wrong but a matter of setting an example of what NOT to do to be considered ghosting. In a team tour the line can be quite hazy and if i saw examples of what that "line" can be considered banworthy it would be easier to understand what to avoid. In general just the log that leads to the ban for each individual in question. I think it also gives the community as a whole a better understanding of what it means to be competitive. (still against this decision though but respect all the input by the tds lol).
In the doubt just play alone without talkin to anyone when playing and its gonna be alright
Of course, here it is:
i had a good chuckle :P ur both lucky i quit this was the easiest trophy of my life
The priority should be to punish the hacker and then the teamworking squad. Can't identify him? don't tourban team germany. The tourban is just giving him what he wants: he won and he doesn't get incouraged to stop.
Breaking the rules in a tournament here is not in the same as breaking US laws and while we may not be a court we should care about the community's image.
Breaking the rules in a tournament here is not in the same as breaking US laws and while we may not be a court we should care about the community's image.
They both broke the rules, punishing one is better than none
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