the support this thing brings to the table to offensive teams is absolutely ridiculous. its also a really good mon to use against rain teams in general, considering it OHKOs most water type-mons (pelipper kingdra mantine just to name a few. toxapex gets 2hkod but like what is it gonna do back lol) with freezy-dry alone.
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Pokémon Alola Ninetales
- Thread starter Colonel M
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I would drop Blizzard for Encore. It's honestly too good to pass up in my opinion. Locking something into a move gives you a huge advantage when switching to something more powerful. I don't really find myself attacking with Ninetales unless it's something Freeze-Dry hits hard. I'd recommend a 248HP/8SpA/252Spe spread to maximize your ability to get Aurora Veil off. The more times you can safely use Aurora Veil, the better.
If we're talking about Hail Offense right now...
I'll admit that it's extremely fun, I don't think GF has gifted hail with so much before (in fact... I don't think GF has EVER gifted hail before). EpicUmbreon29 and I were talking a lot about Hail Offense the CAP room the other day. I'll just go over a few things I found out. I'll start of with A-Ninetales since that's why we're here.
Ninetales-Alola @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Aurora Veil
I use this. Although Light Clay does work with Aurora Veil, it's not necessary. Icy Rock is preferred for Slush Rush sweeping. MoonBlizz Spam is beautiful and Freeze-Dry pops Pelipper and Toxapex. Honestly, the only issues I've encountered with A-Ninetales are her extensive amount of weaknesses and just not quite enough SpA. Encore and Calm Mind have uses if we're trying to use support Ninetales, but I find it's just not bulky enough to abuse either of them. I've seen SpecsTales used too, but like I said, it's not quite strong enough to abuse it properly. I think Ninetales works best as an Hail + Aurora Veil setter and then just spams Moonblast and Blizzard and Freeze-Dry to deal as much damage as it can before it gets forced to swap out.
Sandslash-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
This space is gonna be used to roast Beartic. Beartic is (sadly) literal garbage. Slush rush didn't help it at all unlike Snowslash. While Beartic has a higher Atk of 130 and access to Aqua Jet priority. It's just completely inferior. The only reason you run Slush Rush is because I'm assuming you want complete investment into attack stats, but Beartic can't even outspeed Pheromosa OR kill it with Aqua jet. It's just terrible. Beartic is just simply WAY too slow to set up SD or do anything for that matter. Beartic has absolutely nothing over Snowslash and should never be used. Like I said, aqua jet can't even OHKO pheromosa. (we're talking about base 37 defense here people)
On the other hand, Snowslash has an amazing amount of coverage with Ice/Steel/Ground and it pretty much can kill anything relevant at +2. The way he works is bring it in under aurora veil (which is why I use it on Ninetales) and then SD up. PhysDef Celesteela dies after rocks from crash, Toxapex dies from EQ, any fairy in existence dies to iron head. While Snowslash also has some trouble outspeeding some things even after slush rush's x2 to speed, it still hits a comfy 458 Speed which is enough to outspeed Scarf Excadrill and Shift Gear Magearna. So it's essentially enough to outspeed your average ScarfKillers not named Jirachi or Garchomp.
Regardless, I'm curious what you guys are all using for Hail abuse. Hail has had a tough road, but maybe it finally has a chance now.
I'll admit that it's extremely fun, I don't think GF has gifted hail with so much before (in fact... I don't think GF has EVER gifted hail before). EpicUmbreon29 and I were talking a lot about Hail Offense the CAP room the other day. I'll just go over a few things I found out. I'll start of with A-Ninetales since that's why we're here.
Ninetales-Alola @ Icy Rock
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Aurora Veil
I use this. Although Light Clay does work with Aurora Veil, it's not necessary. Icy Rock is preferred for Slush Rush sweeping. MoonBlizz Spam is beautiful and Freeze-Dry pops Pelipper and Toxapex. Honestly, the only issues I've encountered with A-Ninetales are her extensive amount of weaknesses and just not quite enough SpA. Encore and Calm Mind have uses if we're trying to use support Ninetales, but I find it's just not bulky enough to abuse either of them. I've seen SpecsTales used too, but like I said, it's not quite strong enough to abuse it properly. I think Ninetales works best as an Hail + Aurora Veil setter and then just spams Moonblast and Blizzard and Freeze-Dry to deal as much damage as it can before it gets forced to swap out.
Sandslash-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Iron Head
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
This space is gonna be used to roast Beartic. Beartic is (sadly) literal garbage. Slush rush didn't help it at all unlike Snowslash. While Beartic has a higher Atk of 130 and access to Aqua Jet priority. It's just completely inferior. The only reason you run Slush Rush is because I'm assuming you want complete investment into attack stats, but Beartic can't even outspeed Pheromosa OR kill it with Aqua jet. It's just terrible. Beartic is just simply WAY too slow to set up SD or do anything for that matter. Beartic has absolutely nothing over Snowslash and should never be used. Like I said, aqua jet can't even OHKO pheromosa. (we're talking about base 37 defense here people)
On the other hand, Snowslash has an amazing amount of coverage with Ice/Steel/Ground and it pretty much can kill anything relevant at +2. The way he works is bring it in under aurora veil (which is why I use it on Ninetales) and then SD up. PhysDef Celesteela dies after rocks from crash, Toxapex dies from EQ, any fairy in existence dies to iron head. While Snowslash also has some trouble outspeeding some things even after slush rush's x2 to speed, it still hits a comfy 458 Speed which is enough to outspeed Scarf Excadrill and Shift Gear Magearna. So it's essentially enough to outspeed your average ScarfKillers not named Jirachi or Garchomp.
Regardless, I'm curious what you guys are all using for Hail abuse. Hail has had a tough road, but maybe it finally has a chance now.
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While I'm pretty much parroting things I've heard people saying, iirc Sandslash just isn't really fast enough to make Hail a viable play style. For reference, Scarf Genesect is faster and OHKOs with Flamethrower. On paper, it seems like Hail abuse is kinda easy to throw off cuz 458 Speed isn't really hard to beat (Scarfed +nature Base 90 is 459).
EDIT: I'm just gonna respond to the below comment...
Even with Jolly Nature, it's hitting the same speed tier as Scarfed 103. This means you still lose to Scarfed Keldeo and +2 Neutral Spe-Natured Base 85, and Defensive Rotom-W still walls the hell outta you...
I think it will be low on the viability rankings.
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just ONE LAST THING I forgot, is snowslash can always go jolly for more speed, but I just like Adamant since it lets you OHKO Celesteela after rocks.
THANSK
Yeah guys, absolutely run Jolly on Sandslash. You might miss out on a few 2HKOes, but Sandslash is meant to be a fast anti-offense mon moreso than a wallbreaker, and you don't want to get outsped by scarfed Landog and particularly Genesect. I'm currently using Jolly with 232 EVs, I think that's enough for Genesect or something. A few fast scarfers will outspeed you, but that's not a dealbreaker. Sandslash is still incredibly useful and it's not like there's nothing that can switch into scarf Keld or Kartana or what have you.
note that you'll need to predict celesteela switches since you won't be able to OHKO after rocks anymore... If you try to stay in on Celesteela, you can try to go for flinch hax, but if it doesn't flinch, you'll take a flamethrower to the face and definitely die.
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Was just checking Serebii and apparently Celebrate Alolan Vulpix is legal as of today, I guess it's something
Ninetales-Alola @ Normalium Z
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Celebrate
- Blizzard
-Moonblast Dazzling Gleam
-Freeze Dry/Hypnosis/Hidden Power [Ground]/Hidden Power [Fire]
damage still isn't great with +1 to everything but can still be a decent self-contained late game cleaner. HP Fire doesn't OHKO Mega-Scizor or Ferrothorn by a good margin and still isn't guaranteed with Rocks + Spikes (+Bullet Punch is an instant kill) I don't think it's really worth running as you'll probably already have Magnazone support and really need the steels dead before setting up. Freeze Dry mostly to 2KO Toxapex, Tentacruel and Tapu Fini. Hypnosis is always something I personally don't think it's worth. Oh yeah and Modest will tie with Positive natured base 95 speeds before set up, I think modest is really the only way to go given the low base special attack.
So I decided to check before posting if the moveset had Egg Moves and wouldn't you know it? Most the "decent" options are, just leaving the strikethroughs up as a symbol of my dissapointment and wasted theorymon-ing. Decided to slap on HP Ground as an option if you really hate Heatran lmao
Edit: Extrasensory / Psyshock are also options but they're only really hitting Toxapex and Tentacruel, Blizzard is still better against Mega Venusar by 5 BP
Ninetales-Alola @ Normalium Z
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Celebrate
- Blizzard
-
-
damage still isn't great with +1 to everything but can still be a decent self-contained late game cleaner. HP Fire doesn't OHKO Mega-Scizor or Ferrothorn by a good margin and still isn't guaranteed with Rocks + Spikes (+Bullet Punch is an instant kill) I don't think it's really worth running as you'll probably already have Magnazone support and really need the steels dead before setting up.
So I decided to check before posting if the moveset had Egg Moves and wouldn't you know it? Most the "decent" options are, just leaving the strikethroughs up as a symbol of my dissapointment and wasted theorymon-ing. Decided to slap on HP Ground as an option if you really hate Heatran lmao
Edit: Extrasensory / Psyshock are also options but they're only really hitting Toxapex and Tentacruel, Blizzard is still better against Mega Venusar by 5 BP
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I'm pretty sure Celebrate Alolan Vulpix also has Snow Cloak and not Snow Warning. It's pretty much useless.
Oh yeah, you're right, rip
Quite honestly, looking at it's impact on the NU SM speculation tours, this thing takes an absolutely atrocious weather archetype and makes it viable to the point where it's as threatening as rain and sun (in NU). Even by itself, with a decent offensive typing and a good speed tier, not to mention how broken Aurora Veil is, I can see it defining itself in the lower tiers; possibly even higher.
I would prefer Snow Warning set with:
- Blizzard
- FreezeDry/HiddenPower(Ground)
- Moonblast
- NastyPlot/AuroraVeil/Psyshock/DarkPulse
Hidden Power Ground is very useful to beat down Steel and Poison types, but Freeze Dry is also very useful to take bulky Water types (Mantine, Swampert and Quagsire gonna love that).
Someone said that Beartic is garbage... well, why don't you switch-in on one of them? 130 base Attack is just mediocre, right? I've learned the hard way.
- Blizzard
- FreezeDry/HiddenPower(Ground)
- Moonblast
- NastyPlot/AuroraVeil/Psyshock/DarkPulse
Hidden Power Ground is very useful to beat down Steel and Poison types, but Freeze Dry is also very useful to take bulky Water types (Mantine, Swampert and Quagsire gonna love that).
Someone said that Beartic is garbage... well, why don't you switch-in on one of them? 130 base Attack is just mediocre, right? I've learned the hard way.
I know a lot of the discussion here is global tiers, but for VGC 2017/Alolan Battlespot I've found Overcoat Kommo-o to be very comfortable as a teammate for Ninetales as a threat to Rock/Steel types that would want to delete Ninetales in a heartbeat.
Has anyone played more with Safety Goggles lately? I've been experimenting with it on certain monsters not just for the Hail negation, but to also bait Spore users (which have been mostly Smeargles) into staying in. I find they tend to stick around when paired against something that they clearly outspeed or something that may set up. Definitely not as optimal as I'd hoped with Amoonguss not available for Rage Powder ignorance, but it gives some leeway for having a mon standing the Hail without being nickel and dimed.
Has anyone played more with Safety Goggles lately? I've been experimenting with it on certain monsters not just for the Hail negation, but to also bait Spore users (which have been mostly Smeargles) into staying in. I find they tend to stick around when paired against something that they clearly outspeed or something that may set up. Definitely not as optimal as I'd hoped with Amoonguss not available for Rage Powder ignorance, but it gives some leeway for having a mon standing the Hail without being nickel and dimed.
I wouldn't speculate NU because this thing is almost certainly going to be OU by merit of Aurora Veil alone. At worst, I see this thing ending up UU.
I definitely don't see it in OU sadly. It simply doesn't have that great bulk or resistances. It's offensive STAB options are nothing less than amazing, but there's no point if it can't set-up or live long enough to spam them. I see Ninetales as a lower tiered threat (but still a threat nonetheless) due to its amazing coverage using only STAB. BlizzBlast + Freeze Dry is pretty good coverage that would be able to kill anything that isn't a steel type if Ninetales had slightly more SpA. It's just sad that it ended up with a subpar base 81 SpA.
I like Ninetales as a support mon with Aurora Veil, but I don't see it actually being able to sweep as a Nasty Plot setup sweeper due to just better options like SD Snowslash who has higher offensive stats.
I like Ninetales as a support mon with Aurora Veil, but I don't see it actually being able to sweep as a Nasty Plot setup sweeper due to just better options like SD Snowslash who has higher offensive stats.
The point I'm making is that Aurora Veil alone is so good that enough people will use it to make it OU. It's analogous to Politoed, where Poli sucked but Drizzle made OU. Ninetales actually has a pretty good speed tier of 109, and Freeze Dry is really nice to hit things like Pelipper on Rain teams to render those teams declawed.
Why are you talking about it like it's meant to be a sweeper? Aurora Veil support is what it's good for, and that alone will give it a strong niche in OU.
You are absolutely correct. Not doubting your logic at all. I'm just saying that hail as a whole is a pretty subpar weather currently. Even with the buffs granted to it through slush rush and aurora veil, It's simply not enough to justify using hail in OU as a metagame archetype. The slush rush sweepers are just not quite fast enough EVEN with the doubled speed, but I will admit Aurora Veil is a prime reason to use hail because it's so good.
I'm not saying that it's meant to be a sweeper. My entire post was talking about why you should NOT run NP. It's a good move, just it's not good on this Pokemon.
Are you indicating that using Ninetales should only be used for Hail teams? Because you definitely don't need a Hail team to benefit from Aurora Veil; the Hail on Ninetales usually only helps negate leftovers recovery or secure an OHKO on Sashed/Sturdy mons. I would not recommend playing Hail in OU; there's only one sweeper (Sandslash), and you're honestly much better off sweeping with something like Mega-Gyarados if you're using Ninetales-Alola.
EDIT: Hail is also useful in switching the weather away from Rain.
The more that I've messed around with A-Ninetales the more I feel that it's better to use for Aurora Veil + Speed than as part of a hail team; that's not necessarily because A-Sandslash isn't too great but rather because stuff like M-Gyara, Volcarona, Manaphy (yes, even Z-rain) really love the one-turn dual screens. That plus being a pretty good anti-rain mon is enough because full hail feels a bit like full rain in ORAS: it requires a lot of extra pivots and it's pretty matchup reliant.
Can be both, but it's definitely something you can switch in during the course of a game. It's best used once you can secure a sweep with Aurora Veil (so basically not as a lead).
I don't see the point of doing that, and I feel like there's too many pokemon it loses to in a 1v1 for a lead to be effective. It's much better to bring it in later in the match when it's up against something it outspeeds and can easily set up Veil.
I just think it's too frail+valuable to send in blindly at the start.
I didn't even realize Kommo-o got Overcoat, I'm totally gonna try that out. As for Safety Goggles, you kind of have to compare its usefulness to Leftovers because they'll both negate Hail damage. Leftovers is likely more usefull if you're just using Ninetales as a supporter with Aurora Veil, as you'll find that Hail won't be up a lot of the time, which will make Leftovers much more useful. On an all-out Hail team, Safety Goggles might eke out a win thanks to its powder-negating qualities. But you have to keep in mind that firstly, Spore is much less useful/common this generation due to both Misty and Electric Terrain causing it to fail, and secondly, that there's a lot of competition for that role from Grass-types and Tapu Fini/Koko.
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