Oh, I was just misreading the speed tier list (forgot those were post-Mega speed values)
Thanks!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Battle Tree Discussion and Records
- Thread starter Eisenherz
- Start date
Thanks!
Hello, all!
After a break from posting here, I'm bringing you my 3 teams that achieved a 50-streak in each category here. I didn't want to get high streaks, just beat each category - but I think that I will aim to longer streaks from now, specially in Singles. Well, here they come:
---
Singles
1,5 MILLION points.
Damn you, Gamefreaks. Damn you.
After a break from posting here, I'm bringing you my 3 teams that achieved a 50-streak in each category here. I didn't want to get high streaks, just beat each category - but I think that I will aim to longer streaks from now, specially in Singles. Well, here they come:
---
Singles
Doubles
Mixed Doubles
And this is it. I'm now at 70 with this Singles team. I may switch Crabominable with Golisopod or other slow poké from the new generation and keep going on doubles or I will keep taking pictures to achieve max level on Poké Finder.
1,5 MILLION points.
Damn you, Gamefreaks. Damn you.
Hey all, so there are a lot of people posting sets and teams, but i was thinking it might be good to talk more in the abstract about strategy. In the past, the most reliable strategies have usually involved some kind of debuff or disabling, with entrainment durant being the most notable. Pre-bank, what do we think is the most capable/versatile debuff option?
Trick loses to Mega Stones, Z-Crystals, or Sticky Hold, so in the new Tree it isn't too reliable. Choice items also run the risk of improving the pokemon they land on- scarf on a OHKO move user or Band on a physical attacker. The computer switches out of Struggle, so disable or similar won't work without a trapping move.
Debuffs like Snarl, Tickle, or Parting Shot are good except vs Defiant (Passimian, Empoleon, Braviary, and Bisharp), Contrary (Lurantis, Serperior, Shuckle, and Malamar), or Clear Body (Carbink, Tentacruel, Klingklang, Metagross, and the Regis). They also lose to Frost Breath or random crits unless the switch-in has one of the crit-blocking abilities, and OHKO moves without Sturdy. They also don't protect the user from the initial attack, so they have to be bulky enough to take a hit.
As for post-bank, Entrainment doesn't work on Wishiwashi, Komala, Mimikyu, or Minior, and the Mimikyu and Minior sets both can set up to dangerous levels in a single turn. Minior is also immune to status moves until shields down activates and Mimikyu ignores the first hit on it, which presents problems for switch-ins. There are also potential Prankster sets with Mean Look (Sableye), Swagger (Liepard, Whimsicott), TWave (Liepard), Taunt (Tornadus, Thundurus) and Confuse Ray (Sableye).
Universally, whatever you cripple still can hit you with Whirlwind/Roar/Taunt/Haze when you try to set up on them. There are also several dozen sets with U-turn, Volt Switch, or Baton Pass.
Do we think there is any debuff/setup strategy that can keep a streak alive indefinitely? The old teams relied a lot on being able to tank hits, but with the new megas and Z-Crystals basically everything is hitting harder now.
Trick loses to Mega Stones, Z-Crystals, or Sticky Hold, so in the new Tree it isn't too reliable. Choice items also run the risk of improving the pokemon they land on- scarf on a OHKO move user or Band on a physical attacker. The computer switches out of Struggle, so disable or similar won't work without a trapping move.
Debuffs like Snarl, Tickle, or Parting Shot are good except vs Defiant (Passimian, Empoleon, Braviary, and Bisharp), Contrary (Lurantis, Serperior, Shuckle, and Malamar), or Clear Body (Carbink, Tentacruel, Klingklang, Metagross, and the Regis). They also lose to Frost Breath or random crits unless the switch-in has one of the crit-blocking abilities, and OHKO moves without Sturdy. They also don't protect the user from the initial attack, so they have to be bulky enough to take a hit.
As for post-bank, Entrainment doesn't work on Wishiwashi, Komala, Mimikyu, or Minior, and the Mimikyu and Minior sets both can set up to dangerous levels in a single turn. Minior is also immune to status moves until shields down activates and Mimikyu ignores the first hit on it, which presents problems for switch-ins. There are also potential Prankster sets with Mean Look (Sableye), Swagger (Liepard, Whimsicott), TWave (Liepard), Taunt (Tornadus, Thundurus) and Confuse Ray (Sableye).
Universally, whatever you cripple still can hit you with Whirlwind/Roar/Taunt/Haze when you try to set up on them. There are also several dozen sets with U-turn, Volt Switch, or Baton Pass.
Do we think there is any debuff/setup strategy that can keep a streak alive indefinitely? The old teams relied a lot on being able to tank hits, but with the new megas and Z-Crystals basically everything is hitting harder now.
I'm getting really stressed out on multi. Best partner I got is Anabel with MEga-Lucario (Close Combat, Rock Slide, Blaze Kick, Bullet Punch) and Raikou with Shuca Berry (Thunderbolt, Volt Switch, Shadow Ball, Extrasensory).
Can anyone care to enlighten me with some team I can use with her to get my 50 streak, please?
Can anyone care to enlighten me with some team I can use with her to get my 50 streak, please?
Last edited:
Just managed to hit a 100 streak with a winning combo of ultra beast/scarfer/set-up mon, with some rather unorthodox choices.
The team was focus sash Kartana as lead, bulk-up Talonflame, and scarf Tapu Lele. Tflame actually worked okay as a set up mon despite the nerf to gale wings.
Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 hp, 252 atk, 252 spe
Jolly Nature
-Leaf Blade
-Smart Strike
-Sacred Sword
-Psycho Cut
Sash Kartana often won 3-0 if the opponent's lead was slower thanks to Beast Boost. Smart strike and sacred sword are great boons for dealing with evasion and set-up spammers. Went with Psycho Cut over Night Slash for the rare situation where Kartana was in with Psychic terrain up, which helped on occasion. With the nerf to thunder wave, it doesn't care as much about status abusers since it will usually still be faster than them anyway, and at +1 or more it doesn't care much about will-o-wisp either. Still better to switch out of will-o-wisp users and fire types, which leads to...
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 hp, 4 atk, 4 def, 244 spD, 4 spe
Careful nature
-Brave Bird
-Bulk Up
-Roost
-Flame Charge
Was looking for a set up partner to pair well with Kartana and my eye settled on the now humbled Tflame. Beats tons of the battle trees sets surprisingly (you set up on every Heatran...). Ideally, Flame Charge a near death opponent, something that just can't touch you, or something locked into a fire or ground move. Proceed to set up and let Tflame pretend its still cool. +1 speed roost is almost as good as XY Gale Wings in the tree. It still needs to scout sets to make sure they don't have a rock move, so many mons you wouldn't expect to carry rock coverage have Rock slide or Stone edge (Golisopod-4, Dhelmise-3, and Mega Mawile-4 come to mind). Gale Wings Brave Bird is a nice insurance, but unless it was just sent out Tflame was actually almost never at full health. Flame body probably would've been more use lol. Also, never had Psychic terrain and Gale Wings active at same time so I'm honestly not sure if it nixes Brave Bird or not.
Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
Modest Nature
EVs: 4 hp, 252 spA, 252 spe
-Psychic
-Moonblast
-Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt
Modest Scarf Lele. Not much else to say, except that it was good for murdering the crap out of teams with no psychic resist and was good insurance against most things faster than Kartana. Might've been better to use something that can take on the Rotom forms more easily, since Kartana and Talonflame have trouble with them.
I lost immediately after battle 100 to Mega Alakazam because I was dumb and sacrificed Kartana to it, letting it trace beast boost. Modest scarf Lele doesn't outspeed, and 4 atk Tflame isn't nearly powerful enough to take it out with one BBird. Had I switched to TFlame immediately I would have beat it barring crits or spD drops, but this team doesn't have a surefire way of beating Mega Zam without Kartana's focus sash intact.
That might be it for this team though since it really is pretty dicey. There was a handful of battles I barely won due to last turn dodging Thunders, Blizzards, etc. or just got lucky because I let myself get down to Lele locked into Psychic but the opponent's last mon just happened to not be a dark or steel type. I'm just glad this team I threw together got to 100 first try after losing so many times in the 50-70 range with what i though were much better teams lol.
The team was focus sash Kartana as lead, bulk-up Talonflame, and scarf Tapu Lele. Tflame actually worked okay as a set up mon despite the nerf to gale wings.
Kartana @ Focus Sash
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 4 hp, 252 atk, 252 spe
Jolly Nature
-Leaf Blade
-Smart Strike
-Sacred Sword
-Psycho Cut
Sash Kartana often won 3-0 if the opponent's lead was slower thanks to Beast Boost. Smart strike and sacred sword are great boons for dealing with evasion and set-up spammers. Went with Psycho Cut over Night Slash for the rare situation where Kartana was in with Psychic terrain up, which helped on occasion. With the nerf to thunder wave, it doesn't care as much about status abusers since it will usually still be faster than them anyway, and at +1 or more it doesn't care much about will-o-wisp either. Still better to switch out of will-o-wisp users and fire types, which leads to...
Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 hp, 4 atk, 4 def, 244 spD, 4 spe
Careful nature
-Brave Bird
-Bulk Up
-Roost
-Flame Charge
Was looking for a set up partner to pair well with Kartana and my eye settled on the now humbled Tflame. Beats tons of the battle trees sets surprisingly (you set up on every Heatran...). Ideally, Flame Charge a near death opponent, something that just can't touch you, or something locked into a fire or ground move. Proceed to set up and let Tflame pretend its still cool. +1 speed roost is almost as good as XY Gale Wings in the tree. It still needs to scout sets to make sure they don't have a rock move, so many mons you wouldn't expect to carry rock coverage have Rock slide or Stone edge (Golisopod-4, Dhelmise-3, and Mega Mawile-4 come to mind). Gale Wings Brave Bird is a nice insurance, but unless it was just sent out Tflame was actually almost never at full health. Flame body probably would've been more use lol. Also, never had Psychic terrain and Gale Wings active at same time so I'm honestly not sure if it nixes Brave Bird or not.
Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Psychic Surge
Modest Nature
EVs: 4 hp, 252 spA, 252 spe
-Psychic
-Moonblast
-Shadow Ball
-Thunderbolt
Modest Scarf Lele. Not much else to say, except that it was good for murdering the crap out of teams with no psychic resist and was good insurance against most things faster than Kartana. Might've been better to use something that can take on the Rotom forms more easily, since Kartana and Talonflame have trouble with them.
I lost immediately after battle 100 to Mega Alakazam because I was dumb and sacrificed Kartana to it, letting it trace beast boost. Modest scarf Lele doesn't outspeed, and 4 atk Tflame isn't nearly powerful enough to take it out with one BBird. Had I switched to TFlame immediately I would have beat it barring crits or spD drops, but this team doesn't have a surefire way of beating Mega Zam without Kartana's focus sash intact.
That might be it for this team though since it really is pretty dicey. There was a handful of battles I barely won due to last turn dodging Thunders, Blizzards, etc. or just got lucky because I let myself get down to Lele locked into Psychic but the opponent's last mon just happened to not be a dark or steel type. I'm just glad this team I threw together got to 100 first try after losing so many times in the 50-70 range with what i though were much better teams lol.
Has anyone used Tapu Bulu with much success in doubles? Before losing my streak I'd been leading with Bulu and Nihilego but they don't synergize are well as I hoped. Mostly because Nihilego still dies to any EQ and as a duo they struggle vs bulky steels and psychics/poisons depending on Nihilego's coverage move.
I've been thinking about trying Gengar, Marowak, Chandelure, and Arcanine maybe. Is there anything obvious I'm missing that would pair well with him as a partner or backup?
I've been thinking about trying Gengar, Marowak, Chandelure, and Arcanine maybe. Is there anything obvious I'm missing that would pair well with him as a partner or backup?
Well, Streak ended at 35. I know I can go further with a few tweaks. I'm hurt completely fucked over by bulky waters
Team
Mimikyu w/ Lum Berry
Jolly
252 attack, 252 speed, 4 hp
Swords Dance
Play Rough
Shadow Sneak
Shadow Claw
Standard SD Mimikyu, very well the MVP of the team however when my streak stopped I faced a Curse Swampert and I SD once and decided to just attack the Swampert and it took it like a boss and EQ'd me to death and Greninja cleaned up the rest
Mega Metagross
Adamant
252 attack / 252 speed / 4 hp
Bullet Punch
Meteor Mash
Earthquake
Hammer Arm
Metagross does his job, hits pretty hard, pretty bulky however if y'all can think of a better Steel type that does the job better please recommend, I was seriously considering Agislash, but I don't have much experience with that Pokemon
Garchomp w/Life Orb
252 attack / 252 speed / 4 hp
Swords Dance
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Rock Slide
I know I know "change Dragon Claw for Outrage" that's what I planned on doing however I'm seriously considering replacing Garchomp for Dragonite. That way I get the Multiscale boost and shit, however I lose out on a lot of speed.
Any suggestions?
Thanks boys
Team
Mimikyu w/ Lum Berry
Jolly
252 attack, 252 speed, 4 hp
Swords Dance
Play Rough
Shadow Sneak
Shadow Claw
Standard SD Mimikyu, very well the MVP of the team however when my streak stopped I faced a Curse Swampert and I SD once and decided to just attack the Swampert and it took it like a boss and EQ'd me to death and Greninja cleaned up the rest
Mega Metagross
Adamant
252 attack / 252 speed / 4 hp
Bullet Punch
Meteor Mash
Earthquake
Hammer Arm
Metagross does his job, hits pretty hard, pretty bulky however if y'all can think of a better Steel type that does the job better please recommend, I was seriously considering Agislash, but I don't have much experience with that Pokemon
Garchomp w/Life Orb
252 attack / 252 speed / 4 hp
Swords Dance
Dragon Claw
Earthquake
Rock Slide
I know I know "change Dragon Claw for Outrage" that's what I planned on doing however I'm seriously considering replacing Garchomp for Dragonite. That way I get the Multiscale boost and shit, however I lose out on a lot of speed.
Any suggestions?
Thanks boys
By no means an expert at all, but Tapu Koko's been putting in work for me vs water types (my other members are Mega Salamence and Aegislash). Ground types are a bit of an issue for my team since they usually pack rock-type moves for my Salamence as well, but I've only had one close call vs a team of Dugtrio, Rhyperior, Nidoqueen. I do recommend Aegislash if you're looking for another steel type, though, the Battle Tree was the first time I've ever used it and honestly it takes like half a brain cell to use.
Just hit 50 in Super Doubles (after a number of unlucky losses in the 45-50 range) with this team:
Ninetails-Alola @ Light Clay
252 spa | 252 spe | 4 spd
Timid | Snow Warning
Aurora Veil
Blizzard
Moonblast
Disable
Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
252 spa | 252 spe | 4 spd
Timid | Psychic Surge
Psychic
Hidden Power Fire
Thunderbolt
Dazzling Gleam
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
252 atk | 252 spe | 4 def
Jolly | Tough Claws
Protect
Meteor Mash
Zen Headbutt
Earthquake
Hydreigon @ Assault Vest (occasionally swapped to Dragon, Dark and Water Z crystals)
252 hp | 252 spa | 4 spe
Modest | Levitate
Dark Pulse
Draco Meteor
Flash Cannon
Surf / Protect / Uturn
Team has its weak points but it is aggressive and kind of bulky once Auroa Veil is up, allowing for you to simply pound the opposition into submission. I have been loving what Hydreigon and MegaGross can do together but I know Ninetails is a weak link and should probably be replaced.
EVs are obviously not optimised for anything in particular ha.
Ninetails-Alola @ Light Clay
252 spa | 252 spe | 4 spd
Timid | Snow Warning
Aurora Veil
Blizzard
Moonblast
Disable
Tapu Lele @ Choice Scarf
252 spa | 252 spe | 4 spd
Timid | Psychic Surge
Psychic
Hidden Power Fire
Thunderbolt
Dazzling Gleam
Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
252 atk | 252 spe | 4 def
Jolly | Tough Claws
Protect
Meteor Mash
Zen Headbutt
Earthquake
Hydreigon @ Assault Vest (occasionally swapped to Dragon, Dark and Water Z crystals)
252 hp | 252 spa | 4 spe
Modest | Levitate
Dark Pulse
Draco Meteor
Flash Cannon
Surf / Protect / Uturn
Team has its weak points but it is aggressive and kind of bulky once Auroa Veil is up, allowing for you to simply pound the opposition into submission. I have been loving what Hydreigon and MegaGross can do together but I know Ninetails is a weak link and should probably be replaced.
EVs are obviously not optimised for anything in particular ha.
Metagross has serious accuracy issues- you will definitely lose streaks to misses with MM/HA. You have a Ghost/Dark weakness stacked right now, so I'd say swap, but maybe not to another ghost/dark weakness. Since you've been having problems with waters, Kartana would be a strong choice- it's physically bulky, all of its attacks are 100% accurate (Leaf Blade/Smart Strike/Sacred Sword/Sword Dance), and it has an all-hit move and a stat-up ignoring move which gets you past the double teams and stockpiles. I would also suggest swapping the Lum Berry for a different item (I think Fairium-Z is the thread favorite)- if you expect twave go to Garchomp, Kartana is immune to powder moves and poison, so you have the whole spectrum covered short of burn. If you don't have Kartana, M-Scizor is a pretty good choice, and only has one weakness. SD/Bullet Punch/Roost/XScissor or Uturn ought to work okay, and then you actually have something bulky enough to beat out annoying stallers. That said, Kartana is by far the best option if you want a steel that can beat waters.
Updating my next battle tree attempt...
NoCheese Edit: The team is detailed here.
I reached battle 127 and lost. I mistaked Hilario's (after looking up Hilario means hilarious in Spanish) regular Dugtrio's speed for its Alolan counterpart and clicked Close Combat with Mega-Lucario thinking I'd be faster but she went first and hit me with Fissure. That Dugtrio took down my whole team. It was at ~50% Hp due to several misses from my Salamence before fainting to poison and was out of the Sandstorm it started before hitting my Mimikyu with Fissure that if I had Bullet Punched I'd have a 90% shot to win.For some reason I can't upload that battle, so I'll upload the one before battle 126: V73W-WWWW-WWW4-M9A6 Here's the losing battle: WPNG-WWWW-WWW5-E5RS
Mimikyu's defenses are too low. I wish I didn't have to put a Focus Sash on it because the way it is now it can take out most pokemon but faints to the next one. This will be my last run with this team since I can't think of a way to improve it. My Salamence did get hit with a fighting attack once in the run and it did win about half its speed ties, one vs Charizard Y, and I used the Intimidate switching 3 times during the run so changing Salamence into Hydreigon would require changing Mimikyu into a bulkier Ghost type maybe Aegislash but that would weaken the team to Fire types so it might not get as far as this team.
NoCheese Edit: The team is detailed here.
I reached battle 127 and lost. I mistaked Hilario's (after looking up Hilario means hilarious in Spanish) regular Dugtrio's speed for its Alolan counterpart and clicked Close Combat with Mega-Lucario thinking I'd be faster but she went first and hit me with Fissure. That Dugtrio took down my whole team. It was at ~50% Hp due to several misses from my Salamence before fainting to poison and was out of the Sandstorm it started before hitting my Mimikyu with Fissure that if I had Bullet Punched I'd have a 90% shot to win.
Mimikyu's defenses are too low. I wish I didn't have to put a Focus Sash on it because the way it is now it can take out most pokemon but faints to the next one. This will be my last run with this team since I can't think of a way to improve it. My Salamence did get hit with a fighting attack once in the run and it did win about half its speed ties, one vs Charizard Y, and I used the Intimidate switching 3 times during the run so changing Salamence into Hydreigon would require changing Mimikyu into a bulkier Ghost type maybe Aegislash but that would weaken the team to Fire types so it might not get as far as this team.
Last edited by a moderator:
The resistances seem pretty good, would it be unreasonable to swap things around to have M-Salamence instead of M-Lucario? Physical M-Lucario seems somewhat suboptimal without tutor moves. Alternatively, you could go Special M-Lucario with Vacuum Wave/Nasty Plot/Aura Sphere/Flash Cannon. You probably miss some kills with the lower BP, but it MIGHT be doable.
Suboptimal? Swords Dance, Close Combat, Bullet Punch, and Crunch/Shadow Claw give you perfect neutral coverage.
Multiscale is not a save all, and you trade a Rock resist for a Rock weakness. You also lose EQ STAB for regular EQ. Probably worth it to get the Ground immunity if you continue to use Metagross though.
I think you should take the 256 EV from Atk and Spe from Scizor and split them between Def and SpD. Do it such that SpD is 1 point higher than your Def to give Download users an attack boost. You don't really need attack investment if you have the bulk to set up to +6 while roosting. Max attack investment for Scizor is better if you do a Choice Band set. Garchomp really needs Outrage over Dragon Claw, and I would suggest Dragonium Z+ Outrage over Life Orb, but that's up to you.
Last edited:
I think that will be my next team. I already bred Thrash on my Bagon's when I started and I do want to try that with Aerilate, then support it with a pre-bank toxic stall version of Aeigislash and Chansey and replace Seismic Toss with Minimize from my ORAS battle maison Chansey version. I didn't want to do it earlier because toxic stalling takes so long and it can't take advantage of Z-moves, but I got closer than ever to battle 200 and I think this core can get there.
I think I'll breed the Salamence with Thrash, Substitute, Roost, and Earthquake, Aigislash with Shadow Ball, Toxic, King's Shield, Substitute, and Chansey with Toxic, Protect, Softboiled, and Minimize. I'm also going to try investing Chansey's defences instead of Hp, but if it's still too weak to steel types I'll replace either Protect or Minimize with Flamethrower.
M-Lucario is amazingly strong and it's what carried my team so high as you can see from my 126th battle, but it's important to recognize its weak matchups and what moves have a high priority of use from the opponent and have another pokemon that can reliably counter them, which was Salamence and Mimikyu. The special version loses that amazing power and you won't get almost any free turns to set up with it in the battle tree, but I'll definitely be breeding a special version later on for fun.
But does Mega-Lucario want perfect coverage? Even on a resisted hit Close Combat will be more powerful than Crunch or Shadow Claw unless they're also super effective. What Mega-Lucario really wants is Iron Tail because it rivals Close Combat in power and lets it hit Ghost types, meaning that the only time you would need Crunch is for certain ghost or psychic types with secondary typings that make both of Lucario's STAB moves not very effective, at which point you're probably better off with a Dark type pokemon instead of a Dark Type move to cover those specific pokemon. Consider also that with Adaptability Bullet Punch has the same BP as Crunch and more than Shadow Claw.
Also while I said Mega-Lucario wants Iron Tail...it kinda doesn't want Iron Tail. That miss chance is pretty massive, and you can't even patch it up with a Z move in this instance. Personally I prefer Special Mega-Lucario; less power but more reliable with no defense drops or chance of missing, and Aura Sphere goes right through Double Team as an added bonus. The only thing is I feel like Special Lucario does need the coverage so I run Dark Pulse over Vacuum Wave, but I have Mimikyu for when I need priority.
Ability for flygon?
I want to try this team. I'm new to battling and I love Scizor and I just got my Scizorite.
My point exactly, with the additional note that Lucario has some very useful resistances for that team that kind of go to waste when close combat knocks you down a stage. Lucario is already weak to Mach punch and vacuum wave, and doesn't resist aqua jet, or gale wings brave bird. It also isn't faster than most scarfers. Knowing that you won't always outspeed, why would you use a set-up set that makes itself weaker vs revenge kills? I also like that vacuum wave hits neutrally on more fast pokemon than bullet punch does- being resisted by electric and fire sucks against a lot of the possible outspeeders (Jolteon, electrode, scarf Entei or typhlosion) while flying and bug are mostly less dangerous (accelegor, crobat)
Flygon only gets Levitate
Crunch/Shadow Claw is just to hit Ghosts. You definitely don't want Iron Tail because it will absolutely miss at the worst time.
EDOT: If you don't mind the low accuracy, Rock Slide gives great Super Effective coverage. Neutral coverage is only resisted by Aegislash who is not in the tree sets.
From what I've seen, the AI doesn't use priority moves unless you're 25% or less, even if it can KO. Lucario is pretty frail to set up, even resisted hits can 2HKO at times. You really want to OHKO first which Close Combat can do, but Aura Sphere misses out usually. If you want to set up, Substitute may be a good option for Pokemon likely to status instead of attacking. Especially if you can keep it going into the next Pokémon. Substitute>priority move.
Last edited:
i lost a streak in the 40s today to a mega scizor deciding to use bullet punch on my full health tapu koko before i could volt switch out, so this isn't always the case
That Scizor was most likely out of choices, Bullet Punch was its best pick against Koko.
I guess what he meant is that if they have multiple, equally-good choices and one of them is a priority move, they are not picking it unless the target is at low health.
Scizor4 has Bullet Punch, Aerial Ace, X-Scissor and Roost. Bullet Punch is the only neutral move. The other 2 are resisted by Koko.
Also, edited my previous post. Rock Slide is good option over Crunch/Shadow Claw if you don't mind the accuracy. Post-bank, Ice Punch gives great SE coverage though a little lacking on the neutral.
This is a great resource for those not aware of it. Select your moves and it will show you your coverage. It's now updated for Gen VII too.
http://pokemondb.net/tools/type-coverage
Upon reflection, I've decided to add Level 51's 485 win Super Doubles team to the leaderboard, even though he or she admits that Pheromosa was a "legal hack." Level 51 was honest with me about the hacking, didn't realize legal hacks were banned, and put together a very helpful writeup. Especially early in a generation, I think it's best to be more understanding of mistakes and skew one's decisions towards getting more useful teams up on the leaderboard. This is particularly true when dealing with a trusted Smogonite with considerable positive history. Accordingly, that specific streak is getting a one-time pass on our typical eligibility rules.
To be clear though, moving forward, I'd like to preserve our well-established, multi-generation, "no hacks, even legal ones" rule. I've updated the OP to expressly note that (as very much originally intended) "no hacking" includes "legal hacks," and I really don't want this limited exception to be seen as opening the door for hacking freely. Please don't ignore this policy and then try to push me into including a legal hack streak later on.
As an aside, I'm also open to the idea creating an "informational" category in the OP for interesting or useful streaks that may not be leaderboard eligible, either due to length or possible hacking. Listings could include things like Smuckem's streaks using PokeGened Pokemon with identical sets and stats as those used by the AI, or research into how the AI evaluates certain situations which might be easiest with a customized and possibly illegal team.
If you have particularly strong feelings about this, please let me know, especially if you've been involved in our Tower/Subway/Maison/Tree leaderboards for multiple generations. I think this is a fair response that maintains our general precedents, but as always appreciate constructive input even if you disagree with me!
To be clear though, moving forward, I'd like to preserve our well-established, multi-generation, "no hacks, even legal ones" rule. I've updated the OP to expressly note that (as very much originally intended) "no hacking" includes "legal hacks," and I really don't want this limited exception to be seen as opening the door for hacking freely. Please don't ignore this policy and then try to push me into including a legal hack streak later on.
As an aside, I'm also open to the idea creating an "informational" category in the OP for interesting or useful streaks that may not be leaderboard eligible, either due to length or possible hacking. Listings could include things like Smuckem's streaks using PokeGened Pokemon with identical sets and stats as those used by the AI, or research into how the AI evaluates certain situations which might be easiest with a customized and possibly illegal team.
If you have particularly strong feelings about this, please let me know, especially if you've been involved in our Tower/Subway/Maison/Tree leaderboards for multiple generations. I think this is a fair response that maintains our general precedents, but as always appreciate constructive input even if you disagree with me!
The issue is less Close Combat vs Aura Sphere and more Bullet Punch vs Flash Cannon. There are a lot of bulky ghosts in the tree, including several that aren't weak to Crunch or Shadow Claw, namely Sableye and Spiritomb. Sableye has Prankster, so can screw you with Will-o-Wisp or Confuse Ray, and M-Sableye should easily tank even a boosted Bullet Punch. If you are running CC/BP/SD then you pick between having a super effective move against all of the other ghosts or having Sub to beat Status- I don't love those options. With a special set, burn is a non-issue, and Flash Cannon gets a much stronger neutral hit on ghosts and fliers that are slower than you. Also, on the specific team under discussion, all of the pokemon were physical attackers, so nothing was really able to tank burn. I think swapping to special Lucario makes a lot of sense, given that context.
CTNC
Doesn't know how to attack
This post is a wall of text asking for advise for the Post Bank Tree, so I've put it in a hide tab.
In the Battle Mansion I used a Sun Team in Triples with the "strategy" of Sledge Hammer like Brute Force that got me way more wins that I deserved. Unfortunately, Mega Zard-Y's Heat Wave and Scarf Typhlosion's Eruption together barely miss out on a lot of KOs even when they're both Modest. They need the help of the Solar Powered Screaming Lizard's (AKA The Lizard Born or Heliolisk) Hyper Voice or Dragon Pulse. I'm feeling kind of lost without Triples, so I'm asking for advice for team building in Doubles. Doubles seems similar to Triples, so I'm thinking I could use brute force in the Battle Tree's Doubles. (Famous last words?) Few things come close to the power of Solar Spam, (Trust me, I did the math.) but I have some rough ideas and want to know what you guys think the potential for them is.
My first idea is Grassy Terrain. This doesn't allow me to use spread moves, but it allows me to use Pokemon powerful enough to hit with twice the power of spread move users. Tapu Bulu's Banded Wood Hammer hits a target as hard as Zard-Y and Typhlosion combined and Life Orb Kartana is even stronger than that after it gets a KO. Intimidate is a huge problem with this idea so Serperior could be used even though he takes a turn to reach the Power of Tapu Bulu and needs to hold a Wide Lens. I'm also thinking I'd need Tailwind support because of the team needing items that increase power or accuracy. (Yes, even Kartana needs to be stronger.) I know I listed four Pokemon if you count the Tailwind user, but I can't use them all. The three Grass types are all like Sledge Hammers. and I need room on my team for a Pokemon that can take care of threats that they can't. In other words, you can't use nothing but Sledge Hammers. You also need other tools, like a Carpenter Hammer.
The second idea is rain. Before transforming, Timid Specs Greninja is a little weaker than Modest Mega Zard-Y. After transforming, there is Nothing that hits harder with spread moves. Nothing. By Spamming Surf I can make an Absorb Bulb act like like a second Choice Specs. I can also use Pokemon like Ludicolo as both a check to Water Absorb Pokemon and a Surf Spammer. (AKA a Sledge/Carpenter Hammer Hybrid) The most notable problems with rain are the likely possibility of KOing my own Pokemon with Surf and that Drizzle Pokemon are to slow without a Scarf and too weak without Specs or a Bulb.
The most difficult looking idea is Electric Terrain. This is the weakest of my ideas at the beginning of the battle because of Discharge's low power, but it can grow stronger over time with Xurkitree's Beast Boost and Manectric's Lightning Rod. I may not be able to jump into murder mode from the start with Electric Terrain, but once it gets going...
My last idea is Solar Spam with Tailwind Support. With Tailwind, I can replace Typhlosion's Scarf with Specs. That should make him powerful enough, but if I can't use Tailwind, I'm screwed. I was planing to retire my Solar Spam this gen for a new Shameless Spam team, but if the other ideas don't work, I'll gladly try this.
I'm feeling a bit out of my comfort zone with the change from Triples from Doubles for going for an insane streak and not knowing which Sledge Hammer to choose isn't making things any easier. I'm basically looking for advice on which strategy to choose and advice on what would work with it.
My first idea is Grassy Terrain. This doesn't allow me to use spread moves, but it allows me to use Pokemon powerful enough to hit with twice the power of spread move users. Tapu Bulu's Banded Wood Hammer hits a target as hard as Zard-Y and Typhlosion combined and Life Orb Kartana is even stronger than that after it gets a KO. Intimidate is a huge problem with this idea so Serperior could be used even though he takes a turn to reach the Power of Tapu Bulu and needs to hold a Wide Lens. I'm also thinking I'd need Tailwind support because of the team needing items that increase power or accuracy. (Yes, even Kartana needs to be stronger.) I know I listed four Pokemon if you count the Tailwind user, but I can't use them all. The three Grass types are all like Sledge Hammers. and I need room on my team for a Pokemon that can take care of threats that they can't. In other words, you can't use nothing but Sledge Hammers. You also need other tools, like a Carpenter Hammer.
The second idea is rain. Before transforming, Timid Specs Greninja is a little weaker than Modest Mega Zard-Y. After transforming, there is Nothing that hits harder with spread moves. Nothing. By Spamming Surf I can make an Absorb Bulb act like like a second Choice Specs. I can also use Pokemon like Ludicolo as both a check to Water Absorb Pokemon and a Surf Spammer. (AKA a Sledge/Carpenter Hammer Hybrid) The most notable problems with rain are the likely possibility of KOing my own Pokemon with Surf and that Drizzle Pokemon are to slow without a Scarf and too weak without Specs or a Bulb.
The most difficult looking idea is Electric Terrain. This is the weakest of my ideas at the beginning of the battle because of Discharge's low power, but it can grow stronger over time with Xurkitree's Beast Boost and Manectric's Lightning Rod. I may not be able to jump into murder mode from the start with Electric Terrain, but once it gets going...
My last idea is Solar Spam with Tailwind Support. With Tailwind, I can replace Typhlosion's Scarf with Specs. That should make him powerful enough, but if I can't use Tailwind, I'm screwed. I was planing to retire my Solar Spam this gen for a new Shameless Spam team, but if the other ideas don't work, I'll gladly try this.
I'm feeling a bit out of my comfort zone with the change from Triples from Doubles for going for an insane streak and not knowing which Sledge Hammer to choose isn't making things any easier. I'm basically looking for advice on which strategy to choose and advice on what would work with it.