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Total change of subject, but how viable do you guys think Electrium Z Alolan Golem explosion will be? I mean, I know that explosion's z move power goes down to 200, but it can OHKO Tapu Fini at +1. <-- Probably not important. Plus, you get the upside of not dying when you use Z-Explosion. Plus galvanize. You also get an OHKO on a defensive slowbro.
I don't think it quite works like that. Moves changed by an ability such as Galvanize still use their base type for Z-Crystals, similar to Hidden Power always being "normal" for Z-moves. So Alolan Golem would not be able to turn Explosion into an Electric move.
I've played a fair bit and have some thoughts on the current meta:
It's bad. Simple as that. For a multitude of reasons. Most notably, it's incredibly polarizing. Almost all teams are either all out stall or all out offense. There isn't room in a meta full of ridiculously fast, hard hitters for bulky offense, semi stall or anything in between. It seems like if you even have one bulkier Pokemon, you basically get cornered into running stall. Offense doesn't have much glue - Rotom Wash, Tornadus-T, Jirachi, Celebi, and others were all amazing glue pokemon for offense to use as pivots but their viablities are all to shit because of the meta making it impossible to justify running them. All of those Pokemon could switch in, take a hit, grab momentum for the user. Now with Pheromosa, Koko, Lele, Mega Meta running around, none of them can even survive the 2hko from a majority of offense's attacks and become liabilities.
Metagross and Pheromosa seem broken. Metagross being much more obvious - it's like it was in early ORAS and with 2 definitive counters regardless of movesets, Counter Skarm and defensive Scizor. The use of Magnezone has died down but it is still high and makes Scizor much more difficult to justify and forces Skarm to run Shed Shell. I don't like the 4mss argument (tbf it never really stands up when you think about it) because you can't effectively scout against Meta. You need to switch into 'walls' that take 30% or so plus rocks from Meteor Mash or Zen and then hope it doesn't have the right coverage for you. You've already lost a significant portion of health in your scouting.
Pheromosa on the other hand is probably not as popular of an opinion. A lot of people say it's broken in theory, not in practise. But really, it has exactly one counter which is Toxapex and if you want to use that, you basically have to run stall. It's able to beat its other checks very easily - scarf lures other scarfers, hp electric beats mantine (so does hjk with rocks tbf) and specs lures things like venu.
Overall, it's too easy to be beaten in this meta. Team matchup is responsible for almost all wins. Skill isn't a factor in so many games because there are too many things to prepare for, and I genuinely think it's because of Pheromosa and Metagross. So many times in teambuilding I need to work around one or both of them to the point where I have to entirely rebuild teams. In a meta as completely packed with threats as this one, having pokemon where you need to run more than one check to is completely unhealthy to a fun and skill-requiring metagame.
Very well said. This post captures the sad truth of the current state of our metagame :'(
You are right about the power creep. Gamefreak just keeps chucking out ridiculously powerful Pokemon. I suppose it is a marketing strategy. Gamefreak saw how excited people got over the ridiculously powerful Mega Evolutions in Generation VI, and they wanted to get more excitement with this generation. The only problem, though, is that in order to get people excited again, they had to make Pokemon that were even more powerful than the mega evolutions they gave us last generation. And that's how we got the Ultra Beasts and the Tapus.
The power creep is real. Just check out the viabilities ranking thread. The top ranks are filled with Pokemon and forms introduced in Sun and Moon. In order to keep people excited, it seems Gamefreak just keeps trying to outdo itself by giving Pokemon that are more and more powerful.
Team building is extremely difficult. There is a wide range of extremely powerful Pokemon your opponents could use, and there are hundreds of unique, viable sets that you have to account for when team building. This is pretty much impossible to do with 6 Pokemon.
I had a long weekend and I used it to play on Showdown and experiment with different teams. I tried to create a Balanced team with a mix of bulky Pokemon, defensive mons, offensive mons, a revenge killer. It ended up being impossible. There were times when I thought my team was in great shape and that I thought I had an answer to most of the metagame's threats; But, lo and behold, I go to play a game on the ladder and come across an opponent using a set I hadn't seen before - but there's no way for me to change my team to account for the new threats without opening up more holes.
Pheromosa and Mega-Metagross aren't the only problem. Just look at the currently viabilities rankings list. It's filled with Pokemon that are ludicrously powerful and fast to the point of being unreasonable. it's not just Pheromsa and M-Metagross you have to worry about - you also have to plan for sub-coil Zygarde; conversion Porygon2; Paraflinch from Togekiss - this lost me a match today, actually.
I'll still play the ladder for fun from time to time, because I like Pokemon and it is a good way to relax. However, I don't plan on preparing for tournaments or anything of that nature.
The first thing I would like to point out is that Mega Sableye isn’t mandatory on stall. Far from it, and I would even go as far as to say that Mega Sableye is not good on SM stall.
The only reason stall uses Mega Sableye is because it helps to prevent hazards (mainly Stealth Rocks) being on the field.
But the thing is, Mega Sableye loses to every GOOD Stealth Rocks / Spikes user in SM metagame. Below are some calcs:
Landorus-T with Sword Dance:
+2 252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 288-339 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Marowak-Alolan (not sure about the spread though):
136+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Garchomp with SD:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Spikes LO Greninja:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye-Mega: 175-208 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
LO Mamoswine:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
Heatran still wins versus Mega Sableye (I know it’s going to be trapped by Dugtrio but this is not my point there, remember)
Excadrill can use SR on Mega Sableye (same here)
Hippowdon, despite being not that great in SM OU, beats Mega Sableye (you have to be patient, though)
Seismitoad is another pokemon that can get SR up versus Mega Sableye
And I could even mention SR Clefable and SR Necrozma (with Dazzling Gleam), I know it’s not really viable now, but those pokemons can still SR versus Mega Sableye.
Also don’t forget some of those calcs do not even include Z moves which can get easier OHKOs.
This should make you aware that Mega Sableye only beats passive SR users such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory.
I mean, technically, even defensive Landorus-T can just U-Turn 3 times on Mega Sableye and then it is on the range of a 2HKO by Earthquake.
At that point, stall should use Double Defog rather than Mega Sableye. Well, I should just say Zapdos (+ Skarmory), since Zapdos beats the only two SR users Mega Sableye is able to beat, aka Ferrothorn and Skarm.
And Zapdos has a ton of other uses on stall, so why even using Mega Sableye ? But well, this is a bit off topic.
The idea behind this little talk is that Mega Sableye really does not prevent most SR users from setting up Stealth Rocks.
But let’s back to the crux of the matter, Dugtrio / Arena Trap:
I will start by listing the threats Dugtrio can remove. I remind the standard set used on stall runs Focus Sash + Earthquake + Reversal + Screech / Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Aerial Ace / Stone Edge / Rock Tomb:
And indeed, that’s A LOT of threats. But let’s be real, there are many threats here that do not really scare a good stall team, so we can reduce it to “what stall actually wants Dugtrio to remove”, and here it is:
- Hoopa-U
- Tapu Lele
- Mega Metagross
- Heatran
- Tyranitar
- Kyurem B
- Diggersby
- Crawdaunt
Yeah, this is basically what Dugtrio is usefull for. It just gives stall an answer to 8 pokemons that are otherwise really hard to deal with.
And still, stall can play around and has other answers than Dugtrio for some of them.
Because Dugtrio can beat the aforementioned threats doesn’t mean it automatically removes them, nor that it beats most stall breakers.
Those are two important things I woud like to highlight:
1) Dugtrio can be beaten.
2) There are still many answers to stall.
1) How to beat Dugtrio ?
Remember, Dugtrio does not counter anything, it is only a RK.
That means it can only come on a double switch or thanks to an Eject Button.
Otherwise, stall has to lose a pokemon. You can take advantage of this.
In order to remove the threats it is supposed to beat, Dugtrio needs Entry Hazards to not be on field.
If SR are up, it means Dugtrio:
- has no sash,
- can’t switch in on anything,
- can’t use Reversal (thus it won’t be able to beat things like Kyurem B, Diggersby, …)
- can’t use double EQ which is needed to remove most threats (Tapu Lele, …),
- can’t RK faster threats / loses to priority (Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Quick Attack).
Basically, once EH are up, stall loses to almost any relevant wall/stall breaker. And Dugtrio won’t remove the threats it is supposed to beat anymore.
And as I said at the beginning, Mega Sableye is really not a big deal, Skarmory and Zapdos are what you need to be careful of.
Another way of beating Dugtrio is to force its sash to break with a first pokemon, and then you can capitalize on this with the proper wall breakers.
You could also use Pursuit for that if you manage to have Dugtrio on field.
Shed shell is also a viable option on some pokemons (see Tapu Lele).
Anyway, more generally, you’re not winning the stall match up with only one dedicated pokemon and without putting some pressure on.
For example if you want to wall break stall teams with Choice Band Diggersby, make sure you can have SR up in this match up, but don’t complain about Dugtrio because you didn’t prepare for it. Otherwise, well, just use an other wall breaker.
I don’t see how preparing for Chansey if you use a Charizard Y team is so different than preparing for Dugtrio if that pokemon can remove your breakers.
I mean, offense has to adapt to stall as much as stall has to adapt to offense.
2) Answers to SM stall.
Now that I said everything I wanted to underline, here are some answers that break SM stall:
EH users (in addition with wall/stall breakers):
Landorus-T with SD + Stone Edge / Smack Down + Earthquake + SR + Rockium Z
Marowak-Alolan
Offensive Garchomp
Spikes Greninja (why is this great pokemon not used more ?)
Shed Shell Heatran
Seismitoad
Clefable / Necrozma (since most stall teams do not carry Zapdos lol)
Breakers:
Landorus-T with SD + Smack Down + Earthquake
Coil Toxic Zygarde with Rest or Substitute
Manaphy
SD Tapu Bulu with Fightinium Z
Shed Shell Tapu Lele
Taunt + Nature Madness Tapu Fini
SD Marowak-Alolan
Taunt Tapu Koko
Tornadus-T if no Zapdos
Togekiss if no Zapdos
Serperior
Growth Venusaur
Z Happy Hour Jirachi
Stored Power Espeon
Cores:
Gliscor + Magnezone
Knock Off Landorus-T + Magnezone + anything that needs Skarmory dead
Hail breaks Dugtrio’s sash
Just be creative here !
Don’t forget Dugtrio can also work on offense.
Some cores such as Dugtrio + Volcarona or Dugtrio + Mega Charizard Y can easily remove Chansey so Volcarona / Charizard Y can sweep.
The SM metagame is still young, and I’m pretty sure there are unexplored things such as good Z move users.
The metagame is not even stable and part of the reason Dugtrio is so good is because most people don’t prepare for it the right way (or just don’t want to).
The first thing I would like to point out is that Mega Sableye isn’t mandatory on stall. Far from it, and I would even go as far as to say that Mega Sableye is not good on SM stall.
The only reason stall uses Mega Sableye is because it helps to prevent hazards (mainly Stealth Rocks) being on the field.
But the thing is, Mega Sableye loses to every GOOD Stealth Rocks / Spikes user in SM metagame. Below are some calcs:
Landorus-T with Sword Dance:
+2 252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 288-339 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Marowak-Alolan (not sure about the spread though):
136+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Garchomp with SD:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Spikes LO Greninja:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye-Mega: 175-208 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
LO Mamoswine:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
Heatran still wins versus Mega Sableye (I know it’s going to be trapped by Dugtrio but this is not my point there, remember)
Excadrill can use SR on Mega Sableye (same here)
Hippowdon, despite being not that great in SM OU, beats Mega Sableye (you have to be patient, though)
Seismitoad is another pokemon that can get SR up versus Mega Sableye
And I could even mention SR Clefable and SR Necrozma (with Dazzling Gleam), I know it’s not really viable now, but those pokemons can still SR versus Mega Sableye.
Also don’t forget some of those calcs do not even include Z moves which can get easier OHKOs.
This should make you aware that Mega Sableye only beats passive SR users such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory.
I mean, technically, even defensive Landorus-T can just U-Turn 3 times on Mega Sableye and then it is on the range of a 2HKO by Earthquake.
At that point, stall should use Double Defog rather than Mega Sableye. Well, I should just say Zapdos (+ Skarmory), since Zapdos beats the only two SR users Mega Sableye is able to beat, aka Ferrothorn and Skarm.
And Zapdos has a ton of other uses on stall, so why even using Mega Sableye ? But well, this is a bit off topic.
The idea behind this little talk is that Mega Sableye really does not prevent most SR users from setting up Stealth Rocks.
But let’s back to the crux of the matter, Dugtrio / Arena Trap:
I will start by listing the threats Dugtrio can remove. I remind the standard set used on stall runs Focus Sash + Earthquake + Reversal + Screech / Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Aerial Ace / Stone Edge / Rock Tomb:
And indeed, that’s A LOT of threats. But let’s be real, there are many threats here that do not really scare a good stall team, so we can reduce it to “what stall actually wants Dugtrio to remove”, and here it is:
- Hoopa-U
- Tapu Lele
- Mega Metagross
- Heatran
- Tyranitar
- Kyurem B
- Diggersby
- Crawdaunt
Yeah, this is basically what Dugtrio is usefull for. It just gives stall an answer to 8 pokemons that are otherwise really hard to deal with.
And still, stall can play around and has other answers than Dugtrio for some of them.
Because Dugtrio can beat the aforementioned threats doesn’t mean it automatically removes them, nor that it beats most stall breakers.
Those are two important things I woud like to highlight:
1) Dugtrio can be beaten.
2) There are still many answers to stall.
1) How to beat Dugtrio ?
Remember, Dugtrio does not counter anything, it is only a RK.
That means it can only come on a double switch or thanks to an Eject Button.
Otherwise, stall has to lose a pokemon. You can take advantage of this.
In order to remove the threats it is supposed to beat, Dugtrio needs Entry Hazards to not be on field.
If SR are up, it means Dugtrio:
- has no sash,
- can’t switch in on anything,
- can’t use Reversal (thus it won’t be able to beat things like Kyurem B, Diggersby, …)
- can’t use double EQ which is needed to remove most threats (Tapu Lele, …),
- can’t RK faster threats / loses to priority (Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Quick Attack).
Basically, once EH are up, stall loses to almost any relevant wall/stall breaker. And Dugtrio won’t remove the threats it is supposed to beat anymore.
And as I said at the beginning, Mega Sableye is really not a big deal, Skarmory and Zapdos are what you need to be careful of.
Another way of beating Dugtrio is to force its sash to break with a first pokemon, and then you can capitalize on this with the proper wall breakers.
You could also use Pursuit for that if you manage to have Dugtrio on field.
Shed shell is also a viable option on some pokemons (see Tapu Lele).
Anyway, more generally, you’re not winning the stall match up with only one dedicated pokemon and without putting some pressure on.
For example if you want to wall break stall teams with Choice Band Diggersby, make sure you can have SR up in this match up, but don’t complain about Dugtrio because you didn’t prepare for it. Otherwise, well, just use an other wall breaker.
I don’t see how preparing for Chansey if you use a Charizard Y team is so different than preparing for Dugtrio if that pokemon can remove your breakers.
I mean, offense has to adapt to stall as much as stall has to adapt to offense.
2) Answers to SM stall.
Now that I said everything I wanted to underline, here are some answers that break SM stall:
EH users (in addition with wall/stall breakers):
Landorus-T with SD + Stone Edge / Smack Down + Earthquake + SR + Rockium Z
Marowak-Alolan
Offensive Garchomp
Spikes Greninja (why is this great pokemon not used more ?)
Shed Shell Heatran
Seismitoad
Clefable / Necrozma (since most stall teams do not carry Zapdos lol)
Breakers:
Landorus-T with SD + Smack Down + Earthquake
Coil Toxic Zygarde with Rest or Substitute
Manaphy
SD Tapu Bulu with Fightinium Z
Shed Shell Tapu Lele
Taunt + Nature Madness Tapu Fini
SD Marowak-Alolan
Taunt Tapu Koko
Tornadus-T if no Zapdos
Togekiss if no Zapdos
Serperior
Growth Venusaur
Z Happy Hour Jirachi
Stored Power Espeon
Cores:
Gliscor + Magnezone
Knock Off Landorus-T + Magnezone + anything that needs Skarmory dead
Hail breaks Dugtrio’s sash
Just be creative here !
Don’t forget Dugtrio can also work on offense.
Some cores such as Dugtrio + Volcarona or Dugtrio + Mega Charizard Y can easily remove Chansey so Volcarona / Charizard Y can sweep.
The SM metagame is still young, and I’m pretty sure there are unexplored things such as good Z move users.
The metagame is not even stable and part of the reason Dugtrio is so good is because most people don’t prepare for it the right way (or just don’t want to).
I don't feel dugtrio is an issue. I love how you demonstrated the ways to deal with Dugtrio itself as it is very frail. I think more of the issue is that people do not properly team build. Furthermore, suspecting a mon like Dugtrio seems extremely premature. People don't realize that once all the mega's and bank with ou combine stall will be less of an issue due to the fact that it opens up even more breakers and options. Lastly, I feel there are things such as: speed boost/baton pass that are clearly unhealthy for all play styles, but even that seems extremely premature to suspect without having all the mons available to view the meta as a whole.
The first thing I would like to point out is that Mega Sableye isn’t mandatory on stall. Far from it, and I would even go as far as to say that Mega Sableye is not good on SM stall.
The only reason stall uses Mega Sableye is because it helps to prevent hazards (mainly Stealth Rocks) being on the field.
But the thing is, Mega Sableye loses to every GOOD Stealth Rocks / Spikes user in SM metagame. Below are some calcs:
Landorus-T with Sword Dance:
+2 252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 288-339 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Marowak-Alolan (not sure about the spread though):
136+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Garchomp with SD:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Spikes LO Greninja:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye-Mega: 175-208 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
LO Mamoswine:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
Heatran still wins versus Mega Sableye (I know it’s going to be trapped by Dugtrio but this is not my point there, remember)
Excadrill can use SR on Mega Sableye (same here)
Hippowdon, despite being not that great in SM OU, beats Mega Sableye (you have to be patient, though)
Seismitoad is another pokemon that can get SR up versus Mega Sableye
And I could even mention SR Clefable and SR Necrozma (with Dazzling Gleam), I know it’s not really viable now, but those pokemons can still SR versus Mega Sableye.
Also don’t forget some of those calcs do not even include Z moves which can get easier OHKOs.
This should make you aware that Mega Sableye only beats passive SR users such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory.
I mean, technically, even defensive Landorus-T can just U-Turn 3 times on Mega Sableye and then it is on the range of a 2HKO by Earthquake.
At that point, stall should use Double Defog rather than Mega Sableye. Well, I should just say Zapdos (+ Skarmory), since Zapdos beats the only two SR users Mega Sableye is able to beat, aka Ferrothorn and Skarm.
And Zapdos has a ton of other uses on stall, so why even using Mega Sableye ? But well, this is a bit off topic.
The idea behind this little talk is that Mega Sableye really does not prevent most SR users from setting up Stealth Rocks.
But let’s back to the crux of the matter, Dugtrio / Arena Trap:
I will start by listing the threats Dugtrio can remove. I remind the standard set used on stall runs Focus Sash + Earthquake + Reversal + Screech / Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Aerial Ace / Stone Edge / Rock Tomb:
And indeed, that’s A LOT of threats. But let’s be real, there are many threats here that do not really scare a good stall team, so we can reduce it to “what stall actually wants Dugtrio to remove”, and here it is:
- Hoopa-U
- Tapu Lele
- Mega Metagross
- Heatran
- Tyranitar
- Kyurem B
- Diggersby
- Crawdaunt
Yeah, this is basically what Dugtrio is usefull for. It just gives stall an answer to 8 pokemons that are otherwise really hard to deal with.
And still, stall can play around and has other answers than Dugtrio for some of them.
Because Dugtrio can beat the aforementioned threats doesn’t mean it automatically removes them, nor that it beats most stall breakers.
Those are two important things I woud like to highlight:
1) Dugtrio can be beaten.
2) There are still many answers to stall.
1) How to beat Dugtrio ?
Remember, Dugtrio does not counter anything, it is only a RK.
That means it can only come on a double switch or thanks to an Eject Button.
Otherwise, stall has to lose a pokemon. You can take advantage of this.
In order to remove the threats it is supposed to beat, Dugtrio needs Entry Hazards to not be on field.
If SR are up, it means Dugtrio:
- has no sash,
- can’t switch in on anything,
- can’t use Reversal (thus it won’t be able to beat things like Kyurem B, Diggersby, …)
- can’t use double EQ which is needed to remove most threats (Tapu Lele, …),
- can’t RK faster threats / loses to priority (Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Quick Attack).
Basically, once EH are up, stall loses to almost any relevant wall/stall breaker. And Dugtrio won’t remove the threats it is supposed to beat anymore.
And as I said at the beginning, Mega Sableye is really not a big deal, Skarmory and Zapdos are what you need to be careful of.
Another way of beating Dugtrio is to force its sash to break with a first pokemon, and then you can capitalize on this with the proper wall breakers.
You could also use Pursuit for that if you manage to have Dugtrio on field.
Shed shell is also a viable option on some pokemons (see Tapu Lele).
Anyway, more generally, you’re not winning the stall match up with only one dedicated pokemon and without putting some pressure on.
For example if you want to wall break stall teams with Choice Band Diggersby, make sure you can have SR up in this match up, but don’t complain about Dugtrio because you didn’t prepare for it. Otherwise, well, just use an other wall breaker.
I don’t see how preparing for Chansey if you use a Charizard Y team is so different than preparing for Dugtrio if that pokemon can remove your breakers.
I mean, offense has to adapt to stall as much as stall has to adapt to offense.
2) Answers to SM stall.
Now that I said everything I wanted to underline, here are some answers that break SM stall:
EH users (in addition with wall/stall breakers):
Landorus-T with SD + Stone Edge / Smack Down + Earthquake + SR + Rockium Z
Marowak-Alolan
Offensive Garchomp
Spikes Greninja (why is this great pokemon not used more ?)
Shed Shell Heatran
Seismitoad
Clefable / Necrozma (since most stall teams do not carry Zapdos lol)
Breakers:
Landorus-T with SD + Smack Down + Earthquake
Coil Toxic Zygarde with Rest or Substitute
Manaphy
SD Tapu Bulu with Fightinium Z
Shed Shell Tapu Lele
Taunt + Nature Madness Tapu Fini
SD Marowak-Alolan
Taunt Tapu Koko
Tornadus-T if no Zapdos
Togekiss if no Zapdos
Serperior
Growth Venusaur
Z Happy Hour Jirachi
Stored Power Espeon
Cores:
Gliscor + Magnezone
Knock Off Landorus-T + Magnezone + anything that needs Skarmory dead
Hail breaks Dugtrio’s sash
Just be creative here !
Don’t forget Dugtrio can also work on offense.
Some cores such as Dugtrio + Volcarona or Dugtrio + Mega Charizard Y can easily remove Chansey so Volcarona / Charizard Y can sweep.
The SM metagame is still young, and I’m pretty sure there are unexplored things such as good Z move users.
The metagame is not even stable and part of the reason Dugtrio is so good is because most people don’t prepare for it the right way (or just don’t want to).
A nice write-up. I'd just point out that among common ways to get dugtrio in is also coming in on predicted rocks. I.E. if you're playing heatran as your rocker, every time you come in to set rocks you have to 50/50 whether they're going to go to dug right away or not. If they do, you get rocks up but you also die, and they just defog in a couple turns.
That linked thread is a good read, too. So glad to finally see people moving in the right direction on this, even if it took a misguided suspect (ORAS Msab) and an attack buff to get here.
One thing being brought up in that thread is that if Arena Trap is banned, Pursuit will be next. This is quite a leap, as pursuit is on the level of specificity as magnet pull in terms of what it guarantees a KO on. Otherwise it's just an 80bp move that hits the mon switching out rather than the one switching in, nbd. Shadow Tag + Arena Trap are leagues beyond Pursuit + Magnet Pull in terms of influence and restriction on teams.
See, I honestly LOVE Porygon-Z. Versatile moveset, great base SpA... you can really do anything with it. There are MANY sets well known to this Mon, but I'm experimenting with this one:
Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability/Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Conversion
- Psyshock
- Tri Attack
This set makes use of the ever-useful Conversion-Z: In addition to giving Porygon-Z an immunity to the normally-feared Fighting type (Threats include Superpower Buzzwole, Sacred Sword Kartana, High Jump Kick Pheromosa, Focus Blast Tapu Lele, and others), Conversion-Z gives Porygon-Z an Ancient Power boost, which is +1 in all stats excluding accuracy and evasion. Psyshock is for Pokemon that invest in SpD and don't expect Porygon-Z to run a move of this sort, and Tri Attack is for STAB Coverage and possible status infliction.
Calculations Concerning Often-Seen Sets:
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Buzzwole: 486-574 (116.2 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 702-828 (271 - 319.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Celesteela: 292-344 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Toxapex: 218-258 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are all run with a Modest Nature, 252 EVs in SpA, and the +1 boost to SpA that comes post-conversion. So, Shadow Ball would become STAB at 120 BP.
Opinions? I just enjoy Porygon-Z as a fun and yet competitive member of any team, it being my favorite Pokémon of all time.
I believe that Mega Sableye is still an excellent stall mon; many of the issues it has with powerful hazard setters were issues last gen, aside from Alola wak and Gren. Is it as good as in ORAS OU? No. Is it still good? Yes.
There are very few megas I would even consider running on stall over Sableye, such as Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Mega Slowbro, and Zard X. They're pretty good, but have glaring issues. Frankly, they have more opportunity cost because they lose to more threats than Mega Sab while having less support capability (in Sab's case, hazard control). Contrary to the gif below, it is never deadweight, unlike how many stall mons are in certain matchups.
Also, I like pink mons, the mons that "stall actually wants Dugtrio to remove" are more than those just in your list. Duggy picks off SD+Z move Kartana, Magearna (which pressures Chansey since that's all stall has for it), SD Terrakion, Volcarona (can break through Chansey if supported or Z Fire Blast after a QD or two), Xurkitree, Weavile, Jirachi, Magnezone (have fun once skarm goes down), Zard X depending on the build, etc. These range from mediocre to very viable and from used very infrequently to being very common, and while stall doesn't rely solely on Dugtrio to beat them, it greatly appreciates having these threats/nuisances removed. Did I mentioned that Dugtrio picks off Z move Manaphy? Because that's huge.
Dugtrio is unhealthy, but I think it's far too early in this meta to suspect. I'd give the meta some time. Meanwhile...
These aren't cherry-picked; they're every game with Dugtrio from SPL Week 1 and 2. 8 games, 6 wins, 2 losses, 1 of which was from hax. An average 75% win rate. Duggy does something every game, be it revenge kill/trap major threats or simply pressuring opponent. Succeeds on multiple playstyles.
I don't think I'd build any stall team without Duggy in this meta, it's that good.
I believe that Mega Sableye is still an excellent stall mon; many of the issues it has with powerful hazard setters were issues last gen, aside from Alola wak and Gren. Is it as good as in ORAS OU? No. Is it still good? Yes.
There are very few megas I would even consider running on stall over Sableye, such as Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Mega Slowbro, and Zard X. They're pretty good, but have glaring issues. Frankly, they have more opportunity cost because they lose to more threats than Mega Sab while having less support capability (in Sab's case, hazard control). Unlike the gif below, it is never deadweight, unlike how many stall mons are in certain matchups).
Also, I like pink mons, the mons that "stall actually wants Dugtrio to remove" are more than those just in your list. Duggy picks off SD+Z move Kartana, Magearna (which pressures Chansey since that's all stall has for it), SD Terrakion, Volcarona (can break through Chansey if supported or Z Fire Blast after a QD or two), Xurkitree, Weavile, Jirachi, Magnezone (have fun once skarm goes down), Zard X depending on the build, etc. These range from mediocre to very viable and from used very infrequently to being very common, and while stall doesn't rely solely on Dugtrio to beat them, it greatly appreciates having these threats/nuisances removed. Did I mentioned that Dugtrio picks off Z move Manaphy? Because that's huge.
Dugtrio is unhealthy, but I think it's far too early in this meta to suspect. I'd give the meta some time. Meanwhile...
These aren't cherry-picked; they're every game with Dugtrio from SPL Week 1 and two. 8 games, 6 wins, 2 losses, 1 of which was from hax. An average 75% win rate. Dug does something every game, be it revenge kill/trap major threats or simply pressuring opponent. Succeeds on multiple playstyles.
I don't think I'd build any stall team without Duggy in this meta, it's that good.
Completely agree. People overlook Duggy for so many reasons - one question, however. Does this mean that the fully physical Dugtrio that was once a thing is now only in the past? Such as Banded, Sash/Reversal?
All Dugtrio are fully physical. They might not be EdgeQuake/Sucker/Reversal, but that's because support options such as rocks/screech/memento/etc often outclass it. Note that scarf will often run Aerial Ace for Buzzwole, Phero, and other mons.
Not really sure where to post, but bank finally updated and comes with Mewnium Z now being legal which seems pretty cool. Not sure how effective this will be since Tapus are everywhere can change the terrain however they like, but still.
Chansey gets Reflect, which is a pain. It (and by extension Blissey) also gets Tri-Attack for a special Normal STAB that works with Serene Grace, for a 40% of some debilitating status.
Apparently everything from RBY always has its HA, so Zapdos has Static if you can give up Defog and Heat Wave. A big if there, though.
The first thing I would like to point out is that Mega Sableye isn’t mandatory on stall. Far from it, and I would even go as far as to say that Mega Sableye is not good on SM stall.
The only reason stall uses Mega Sableye is because it helps to prevent hazards (mainly Stealth Rocks) being on the field.
But the thing is, Mega Sableye loses to every GOOD Stealth Rocks / Spikes user in SM metagame. Below are some calcs:
Landorus-T with Sword Dance:
+2 252+ Atk Earth Plate Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 288-339 (94.7 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Marowak-Alolan (not sure about the spread though):
136+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 121-144 (39.8 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Garchomp with SD:
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 202-238 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Spikes LO Greninja:
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye-Mega: 175-208 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
LO Mamoswine:
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
Heatran still wins versus Mega Sableye (I know it’s going to be trapped by Dugtrio but this is not my point there, remember)
Excadrill can use SR on Mega Sableye (same here)
Hippowdon, despite being not that great in SM OU, beats Mega Sableye (you have to be patient, though)
Seismitoad is another pokemon that can get SR up versus Mega Sableye
And I could even mention SR Clefable and SR Necrozma (with Dazzling Gleam), I know it’s not really viable now, but those pokemons can still SR versus Mega Sableye.
Also don’t forget some of those calcs do not even include Z moves which can get easier OHKOs.
This should make you aware that Mega Sableye only beats passive SR users such as Ferrothorn and Skarmory.
I mean, technically, even defensive Landorus-T can just U-Turn 3 times on Mega Sableye and then it is on the range of a 2HKO by Earthquake.
At that point, stall should use Double Defog rather than Mega Sableye. Well, I should just say Zapdos (+ Skarmory), since Zapdos beats the only two SR users Mega Sableye is able to beat, aka Ferrothorn and Skarm.
And Zapdos has a ton of other uses on stall, so why even using Mega Sableye ? But well, this is a bit off topic.
The idea behind this little talk is that Mega Sableye really does not prevent most SR users from setting up Stealth Rocks.
But let’s back to the crux of the matter, Dugtrio / Arena Trap:
I will start by listing the threats Dugtrio can remove. I remind the standard set used on stall runs Focus Sash + Earthquake + Reversal + Screech / Sucker Punch / Pursuit / Aerial Ace / Stone Edge / Rock Tomb:
And indeed, that’s A LOT of threats. But let’s be real, there are many threats here that do not really scare a good stall team, so we can reduce it to “what stall actually wants Dugtrio to remove”, and here it is:
- Hoopa-U
- Tapu Lele
- Mega Metagross
- Heatran
- Tyranitar
- Kyurem B
- Diggersby
- Crawdaunt
Yeah, this is basically what Dugtrio is usefull for. It just gives stall an answer to 8 pokemons that are otherwise really hard to deal with.
And still, stall can play around and has other answers than Dugtrio for some of them.
Because Dugtrio can beat the aforementioned threats doesn’t mean it automatically removes them, nor that it beats most stall breakers.
Those are two important things I woud like to highlight:
1) Dugtrio can be beaten.
2) There are still many answers to stall.
1) How to beat Dugtrio ?
Remember, Dugtrio does not counter anything, it is only a RK.
That means it can only come on a double switch or thanks to an Eject Button.
Otherwise, stall has to lose a pokemon. You can take advantage of this.
In order to remove the threats it is supposed to beat, Dugtrio needs Entry Hazards to not be on field.
If SR are up, it means Dugtrio:
- has no sash,
- can’t switch in on anything,
- can’t use Reversal (thus it won’t be able to beat things like Kyurem B, Diggersby, …)
- can’t use double EQ which is needed to remove most threats (Tapu Lele, …),
- can’t RK faster threats / loses to priority (Bullet Punch, Aqua Jet, Quick Attack).
Basically, once EH are up, stall loses to almost any relevant wall/stall breaker. And Dugtrio won’t remove the threats it is supposed to beat anymore.
And as I said at the beginning, Mega Sableye is really not a big deal, Skarmory and Zapdos are what you need to be careful of.
Another way of beating Dugtrio is to force its sash to break with a first pokemon, and then you can capitalize on this with the proper wall breakers.
You could also use Pursuit for that if you manage to have Dugtrio on field.
Shed shell is also a viable option on some pokemons (see Tapu Lele).
Anyway, more generally, you’re not winning the stall match up with only one dedicated pokemon and without putting some pressure on.
For example if you want to wall break stall teams with Choice Band Diggersby, make sure you can have SR up in this match up, but don’t complain about Dugtrio because you didn’t prepare for it. Otherwise, well, just use an other wall breaker.
I don’t see how preparing for Chansey if you use a Charizard Y team is so different than preparing for Dugtrio if that pokemon can remove your breakers.
I mean, offense has to adapt to stall as much as stall has to adapt to offense.
2) Answers to SM stall.
Now that I said everything I wanted to underline, here are some answers that break SM stall:
EH users (in addition with wall/stall breakers):
Landorus-T with SD + Stone Edge / Smack Down + Earthquake + SR + Rockium Z
Marowak-Alolan
Offensive Garchomp
Spikes Greninja (why is this great pokemon not used more ?)
Shed Shell Heatran
Seismitoad
Clefable / Necrozma (since most stall teams do not carry Zapdos lol)
Breakers:
Landorus-T with SD + Smack Down + Earthquake
Coil Toxic Zygarde with Rest or Substitute
Manaphy
SD Tapu Bulu with Fightinium Z
Shed Shell Tapu Lele
Taunt + Nature Madness Tapu Fini
SD Marowak-Alolan
Taunt Tapu Koko
Tornadus-T if no Zapdos
Togekiss if no Zapdos
Serperior
Growth Venusaur
Z Happy Hour Jirachi
Stored Power Espeon
Cores:
Gliscor + Magnezone
Knock Off Landorus-T + Magnezone + anything that needs Skarmory dead
Hail breaks Dugtrio’s sash
Just be creative here !
Don’t forget Dugtrio can also work on offense.
Some cores such as Dugtrio + Volcarona or Dugtrio + Mega Charizard Y can easily remove Chansey so Volcarona / Charizard Y can sweep.
The SM metagame is still young, and I’m pretty sure there are unexplored things such as good Z move users.
The metagame is not even stable and part of the reason Dugtrio is so good is because most people don’t prepare for it the right way (or just don’t want to).
Tbh the main issue with Stall right now isn't that it's hard to break, the actual main issue is the constraint it puts when teambuilding. You mention how it's possible to set up rocks against Stall using offensive rocks setters (SD Lando-T, LO Chomp, LO Mamo, etc) but that means that without an offensive rock setter I will never be able to get up rocks against Stall, and even though those mons are pretty common on Offense/Hyper Offense, bulkier builds can't really afford to use an offensive rocks setter. Some say that this is caused because people don't take Stall into account when teambuilding but this isn't always true because even if you're aware that your RH Lando-T will never get up rocks against Stall and keep them up (The U-Turn example you gave doesn't count because if you manage to get rocks up Skarm defogs with ease) and even then you can't afford to change your defensive Lando to offensive just because it can't get rocks up against Stall. Don't forget that your rocks setter has to be able to beat both Sableye and Skarm because otherwise it gets defogged on, which some of your examples can't (Driller Hippo Mamo). I think someone already mentioned all of the Threats to Stall trapped by Dugtrio you missed, so I guess I'll leave it there. Then you mention how getting rocks up basically cuts Dugtrio utility in half because it forces you to sack something before rkilling, but then you have to be able to keep those hazards up until Dug is forced in, so unless your whole team beats Skarm/Zapdos 1v1 or your ake a double into the mon that beats those everytime your opp gets a chance to defog, rocks will eventually go away. This doesn't apply to SD Rockium Lando and Marowak because they're stallbreakers themselves. Now you mention some Stallbreakers that do work against other playstyles and get rocks up but by running such an offensive mon you're pretty much forced into offense which puts a big constraint in teambuilding (GRen is forced out by Chansey btw so free defog on a double assuming your opp knows what he's doing). Shed Shell Heatran shouldn't even be a set since the only benefit it gets from that is not getting trapped by Duggy which shows its big impact on the metagame (Just like Shed Shell Togekiss back in the day). I wouldn't include Taunt NM Fini in Stallbreakers btw because it gets PP stalled by Shed+Toxapex and I have no clue what Growth Venusaur is and why you would use it in OU just to beat Stall, which I'm skeptical about. Fianlly Mag Cores don't break Stall unless your opp doesn't have Shed Shell Skarm which they should alaways have because Mag is everywhere. And yeah Duggy is also a Stallbreaker imo but that's thanks to Arena Trap which is the initial issue right here, it's like countering Goth Stall with Goth. What I mean is, the main issue with Stall is the constraint that it puts on teambuilding, which Duggy just makes even worse.
Edit: Most of this is just my opinion and personal experience btw so I hope I didn't sound aggressive or anything lol :]
Stall using mega sableye as the lead everytime isn't viable, but foul play/ prankster wisp/taunt checks just near all the rock/spikes users not dark or mental herb using.
But using dugtrio as a lead is filthy nasty vs say exadrill/some Tapu lele.
Stall is really solid and has a number of options.
Just questioning I'd I should switch out heatran on my shednija stall
So if I'm correct, the Birds are the only mons that gained HA access they lacked prior. Zapdos loses Heat Wave and Defog, so it probably won't want Static, but I remember seeing SpD Moltres discussed as one point. Within its niche usage, would Flame Body do it noticeably better than Pressure?
I believe that Mega Sableye is still an excellent stall mon; many of the issues it has with powerful hazard setters were issues last gen, aside from Alola wak and Gren. Is it as good as in ORAS OU? No. Is it still good? Yes.
There are very few megas I would even consider running on stall over Sableye, such as Mega Venusaur, Mega Scizor, Mega Slowbro, and Zard X. They're pretty good, but have glaring issues. Frankly, they have more opportunity cost because they lose to more threats than Mega Sab while having less support capability (in Sab's case, hazard control). Contrary to the gif below, it is never deadweight, unlike how many stall mons are in certain matchups.
Also, I like pink mons, the mons that "stall actually wants Dugtrio to remove" are more than those just in your list. Duggy picks off SD+Z move Kartana, Magearna (which pressures Chansey since that's all stall has for it), SD Terrakion, Volcarona (can break through Chansey if supported or Z Fire Blast after a QD or two), Xurkitree, Weavile, Jirachi, Magnezone (have fun once skarm goes down), Zard X depending on the build, etc. These range from mediocre to very viable and from used very infrequently to being very common, and while stall doesn't rely solely on Dugtrio to beat them, it greatly appreciates having these threats/nuisances removed. Did I mentioned that Dugtrio picks off Z move Manaphy? Because that's huge.
Dugtrio is unhealthy, but I think it's far too early in this meta to suspect. I'd give the meta some time. Meanwhile...
These aren't cherry-picked; they're every game with Dugtrio from SPL Week 1 and 2. 8 games, 6 wins, 2 losses, 1 of which was from hax. An average 75% win rate. Duggy does something every game, be it revenge kill/trap major threats or simply pressuring opponent. Succeeds on multiple playstyles.
I don't think I'd build any stall team without Duggy in this meta, it's that good.
See, I honestly LOVE Porygon-Z. Versatile moveset, great base SpA... you can really do anything with it. There are MANY sets well known to this Mon, but I'm experimenting with this one:
Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability/Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest/Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Conversion
- Psyshock
- Tri Attack
This set makes use of the ever-useful Conversion-Z: In addition to giving Porygon-Z an immunity to the normally-feared Fighting type (Threats include Superpower Buzzwole, Sacred Sword Kartana, High Jump Kick Pheromosa, Focus Blast Tapu Lele, and others), Conversion-Z gives Porygon-Z an Ancient Power boost, which is +1 in all stats excluding accuracy and evasion. Psyshock is for Pokemon that invest in SpD and don't expect Porygon-Z to run a move of this sort, and Tri Attack is for STAB Coverage and possible status infliction.
Calculations Concerning Often-Seen Sets:
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Buzzwole: 486-574 (116.2 - 137.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 702-828 (271 - 319.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Celesteela: 292-344 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Adaptability Porygon-Z Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Toxapex: 218-258 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
These are all run with a Modest Nature, 252 EVs in SpA, and the +1 boost to SpA that comes post-conversion. So, Shadow Ball would become STAB at 120 BP.
Opinions? I just enjoy Porygon-Z as a fun and yet competitive member of any team, it being my favorite Pokémon of all time.
How useful is tri attack in practice? Z- conversion P-Z is supposed to come in safely, set up and sweep; it shouldn't be staying normal type because (1) loses an opportunity to do its job while risking being revenge killed, (2) normal type is a terrible offensive type, specially in a meta full metal types and (3) You sacrifice valuable SE coverage vs dangerous mons like celestela and skarmory (tbolt) while winning nothing with a normal move.
Imo, you should either run a 3rd move for super effective coverage or recover
Generally Tri Attack shouldn't be ran as there are better abusable options for that slot. For example, on Ghost-Conversion, some can opt to use Recover to increase longevity and beat out certain threats, or even something like HP-Fighting. Electric-Conversion on the other hand often runs triple coverage with boltbeam. There's just no real good reason to run it except for memes.
I suppose tri-attack could be used when you have no time to conversion, or as an incredibly situational nuke with normalium, that being said, the only point of using porygon-z in ou is conversion, so yeah.
So if I'm correct, the Birds are the only mons that gained HA access they lacked prior. Zapdos loses Heat Wave and Defog, so it probably won't want Static, but I remember seeing SpD Moltres discussed as one point. Within its niche usage, would Flame Body do it noticeably better than Pressure?
All the birds got their HAs through an event last gen, meaning Zapdos already has Heat Wave + Static, (but not Defog.) The only notable new development from Gen 1 Transfer, (from what I know,) is Body Slam Sheer Force Taurus.
