Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread v2

[zeezrom]

Are we allowed to talk about banning but not unbanning?

 

[Morsel]

That reminds me... considering us public players aren't allowed to contribute to the 'Policy Review' threads - is there not somewhere those not part of the council can set up something similar? Just curious.

Hi,

If you have legitimate concerns about the tier, I'm sure that you can always PM a council member to hear your concerns. Alternatively, you can gather evidence and post your claim here if it relates to the metagame. By evidence, I mean replays against good players (high ladder, SPL) and metagame trends. Bear in mind that those who can contribute to policy review have proven themselves capable of contributing to the community in a positive manner. By allowing anyone to post, it creates potential for the quality of that subforum to decline significantly, hence the reason why it is a private forum.

 

[Gary]

Are we allowed to talk about banning but not unbanning?

This is not the place to talk about suspect testing in general. It's for discussion on the CURRENT metagame. Again, refer back to my previous post if you want to know who to talk to in order to find the answers you want.

 

[13_luckynumber]

So, I know this is controversial, and probably above my level to bring it up, so to speak, but I was wondering if there are any plans on suspect testing Pheromosa?

While Phero clearly has a few checks, has a quite limited move pool, and teams have found ways to deal with it, it seems to me that its speed puts too much pressure on team building. I, at least, feel that I need at least one scarfed mon that outspeeds Phero (Jolly, fully invested, Landorus-T or faster), or one that has really strong priority, normally Ash-Greninja or Mega-Pinsir, or perhaps bullet punch Mega-Metagross, though the are not quite as consistent checks as scarfed mons are (Ash Greninja needs to be in Ash Form to guarantee a OHKO and is itself OHKO'd in return, and Mega-Pinsir means you cannot run mega-metagross).

Which brings me to the second problem I think Phero brings to the meta right now: It greatly lessens the viability of a couple of megas that Phero clearly dominates, giving yet another reason to run Mega-Metagross. The most notable trio are Mega-Gyarados, Mega-Zam, and Mega-Beedrill. M-Gyarados cannot outspeed Phero at +1, and Phero OHKOs Mega-Gyarados with High Jump Kick or Focus Blast; so even if Mega-Gyarados gets a chance to set up a D-Dance, it cannot do so and mega evolve, without being OHKO'd, instead it has to stay in 'regular' Gyarados form, basically until Phero is knocked out, or it gets two D-Dances up, which means one might as well run Flyium-Z Moxie Gyara instead (not always, but typically). Mega-Zam also cannot do much unless Phero is KO'd, as Phero outspeeds and OHKOs with its Bug type STABS, so is essentially useless until Phero is gone; added to this is the fact that most scarfers also outspeed Mega-Zam, and I think this is at least in part because most teams want a mon that can deal with Phero. I'm not sure if getting rid of Phero will lead to a rise in Mega-Beedrill, but at least it would give Mega-Beedrill a niche - though this is hardly a big reason to suspect Phero. I just wonder if the meta would be more amenable to these alternative megas if Phero were not in it, which would lessen the dominance of Metagross and Scizor (which is quite common these days mostly because it checks Metagross), and perhaps Mawile too.

Aside from my lack of authority, the reason I'd be for a suspect test but would certainly not want a quick ban is that the Meta quite now is actually quite enjoyable because it is quite offensive (for instance, I enjoy using and playing against the offensive Landorus-T's than the Rocky Helmet version, and ORAS was not so fun with CM+Magic Guard Clefable being the top threat!). The main thing I would be interested in seeing whether other megas became more viable if Phero was not in the Meta, and whether team building would become more flexible and creative. So, my point is not that Phero is overly good for the tier and will singlehandedly win matches (which I don't think it is or does), but that it might put too many demands on team building in terms of speed control, and perhaps choice in megas.

That said, I'm clearly not authoritative enough to say that Phero should be suspected, and would simply be happy with the question being addressed as to why it hasn't been so far and the above arguments are flawed, or if the above is simply not enough to justify a test. And I'm sorry if this has been thoroughly brought up before, I couldn't see anything too coherent about Phero here (or anything raising these team building issues), but you never know.

Thanks for your time and opinions!

I didnt exactly read everything you wrote so sorry if i had missed sth but the 3 megas you mentioned will be bad regardless of Pheromosa: MegaGyara isnt sweeping in a meta filled with Tapu fini, tangrowth, ferrothorn, lele, keldeo; MegaBeedrill isnt doing anything when Lando-T's usage is literally near 50%; MegaZam is 98% outclassed by Tapu lele. Sure that Pheromosa makes thrm even worse but it's not like they are good in the first place

 

[Government]

Has anyone tried a bulky, Rocky Helmet Garchomp? If so, does it work well alongside Florges as a Dragon/Fairy Core?

 

[lordoftets]

Florges has always been outclassed by Sylveon, which itself is not a great choice for your Fairy.

Rocky Helmet Garchomp was everywhere in Gen 6, but it's gained a lot of checks and even a few counters in Gen 7. It can't touch Celesteela, the Tapus all threaten it, it can't check Pheremosa because of Ice Beam, Greninja's been unbanned, Zygarde's relevant now. But mostly, Landorus-T simply checks more than TankChomp.

 

[Government]

Florges has always been outclassed by Sylveon, which itself is not a great choice for your Fairy.

Rocky Helmet Garchomp was everywhere in Gen 6, but it's gained a lot of checks and even a few counters in Gen 7. It can't touch Celesteela, the Tapus all threaten it, it can't check Pheremosa because of Ice Beam, Greninja's been unbanned, Zygarde's relevant now. But mostly, Landorus-T simply checks more than TankChomp.

Thank you! I really appreciate it. Is he still a viable sweep? Or are all of these new checks just messing him up completely?

 

[Leo]

Thank you! I really appreciate it. Is he still a viable sweep? Or are all of these new checks just messing him up completely?

Its most viable set right now is Scarf because it's nice Speed tier allows it to revenge kill a lot of set up sweepers such as Volcarona Zard Mence and even Gyarados after some prior damage. Offensive rocks with SD Stealth Rock EQ and DClaw is also a cool offensive rocker but mostly outshined by Offensive Rocks Landorus

 

[Government]

Its most viable set right now is Scarf because it's nice Speed tier allows it to revenge kill a lot of set up sweepers such as Volcarona Zard Mence and even Gyarados after some prior damage. Offensive rocks with SD Stealth Rock EQ and DClaw is also a cool offensive rocker but mostly outshined by Offensive Rocks Landorus

That offensive rocks set sounds cool but doesn't it lack coverage with that set?

 

[Leo]

That offensive rocks set sounds cool but doesn't it lack coverage with that set?

That's one of the main reasons it's outshined by offensive Lando: EQ+Edge is better coverage than Chomp's stabs. SD and Rocks are mandatory tho so in any case you could run something like Fire Fang with Firium Z as a Skarm/Celesteela lure, double stabs is more reliable tho
e: @above guy: if you want to PM a council member hit the Start a conversation option on their smogon profiles, however I would encourage you to talk to some people and get information about that first, I read through your post and nothing seemed too convincing

 

[Government]

That's one of the main reasons it's outshined by offensive Lando: EQ+Edge is better coverage than Chomp's stabs. SD and Rocks are mandatory tho so in any case you could run something like Fire Fang with Firium Z as a Skarm/Celesteela lure, double stabs is more reliable tho

I'll play around with it, thank you!

 

[Finchinator]

So how do I send a council member the following link: http://thecaseforkyogre.blogspot.com/2017/03/this-might-sound-completely-ridiculous.html ? Do they go by their smog user names on Facebook or have their email addresses posted anywhere?

You can send us all a forum PM if you'd like. However, there is no chance that we will be testing Kyogre in OU at any point and any discussion of it should be stopped immediately and never continued.

 

[Fireburn]

also if you try posting about it in the ubers subforum your post will be infracted and you will be subsequently made fun of

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

yeah, uh... zeezrom - I've tried something similar with Lunala, and needless to say the reception wasn't too great...
I admire your effort, but until the meta settles down, I think it's best we don't tread on that ground (I mean, it's now in the rules...).

On another note - I've recently tried making a team around Mega Pidgeot (coming in around a couple of weeks or so), and after having versions of said team reviewed by colleges: they seem to struggle with Volcarona. After looking into it some more, I think it would be a good mon' to talk about. So:

• Which spreads do we normally like to run?
• What filler move do people normally use / do we think it has 4MSS?
• Are there any other options besides Quiver Dance?
• What do we normally run it alongside (example: HP Ice ft. Duggy)?

I've heard that Volcarona is probably one of the best users of Z-moves currently in OU as well, so I think it would make interesting discussion.

 

[Morsel]

I'm noticing this a lot and it is really starting to get to me. When you are trying to propose an argument (or similarly, support an argument), please don't list a bunch of calcs about facts that we already know. It literally doesn't add anything to your argument. The only time you should use calcs is to help support a lure or unique set which takes advantage of metagame trends. For example, a calc showing that +1 Breakneck Blitz from Pheromosa (z hyper beam) OHKOs standard Toxapex is appropriate, because it showcases how Pheromosa can easily take advantage of the fact that people are running Toxapex on even some offensive teams just so they don't lose to mosa.

Showing calcs like a Mega Mawile play rough OHKOing a tankchomp and then coming to the conclusion that Mawile deserves a suspect adds nothing to the discussion and literally just shows that Mawile can OHKO Garchomp. Walls of calcs (bolded in particular) which state the obvious are obnoxious to read and degrade the quality of this discussion. I urge anyone who posts to keep this in mind so we can have a more intelligent discussion in the future.

 

[Government]

I'm happy Greninja is back in OU but are there any good counters/checks for him outside of Rotom Wash?

 

[dk]

I'm happy Greninja is back in OU but are there any good counters/checks for him outside of Rotom Wash?

It's largely set dependent and you shouldn't really aim to counter Greninja so much as check it. Protean Greninja can cheese its way past most of its would-be defensive counters, such as Toxapex (with Extrasensory), Venusuar (Extrasensory), Tapu Fini (Gunk Shot), etc., so you should focus on pressuring it offensively instead of relying on a surefire defensive answer. Most powerful scarfers like Scarf Terrakion or Scarf Garchomp are decent answers, as well as 'mons that are outright faster like Tapu Koko or Pheromosa.

 

[Xcreated]

This game is extremely cookie cutter right now. I feel like all the meta is made up of is the same 10 Pokémon. I really hope to see some bans or shifts cause seeing the same cores over and over is really making this the worst generation to date. It use to be fun trying to guess sets and not have to run an unoriginal team.

 

[Government]

It's largely set dependent and you shouldn't really aim to counter Greninja so much as check it. Protean Greninja can cheese its way past most of its would-be defensive counters, such as Toxapex (with Extrasensory), Venusuar (Extrasensory), Tapu Fini (Gunk Shot), etc., so you should focus on pressuring it offensively instead of relying on a surefire defensive answer. Most powerful scarfers like Scarf Terrakion or Scarf Garchomp are decent answers, as well as 'mons that are outright faster like Tapu Koko or Pheromosa.

Thank you so much for this!

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Tbh, I don't really like Greninja's influence on the meta. Or Pheromosa's either. I feel like Pheromosa has been talked about a ton for basically all of SM tho, so I'll give my short two cents on Greninja.

First of all, protean. Can you even counter this thing? It has everything in its movepool - hydro pump, dark pulse, ice beam, hp fire, extrasensory, gunk shot, low kick, spikes (which are phenomenal rn), hell even grass knot iirc. Free stab on every move is huge.

Now I know newer mons like Koko, Pheromosa, and others can outspeed and revenge kill (whereas in ORAS it didn't face much competition as far as speed tier), but I still want to talk about why I think it's thriving just as much in SM as it was in ORAS. In ORAS, it mainly served as a cleaner - it had coverage for everything, Clef and Lati twins were everywhere, it could beat Ttar and even Keldeo and Mega Venusaur, and its unpredictability factor was stellar. In SM, it has indeed taken a hit from the rise of scarfers. But I feel like now, it can serve two different roles: cleaning (for bulkier teams) or supporting a sweep (when paired up with things like Pheromosa, MegaGross, or so on). Which leads to my next point:

A vast majority of teams are forced to run things like pex, ferro, steela, etc.. to try and counter the countless offensive threats present now. Teams need answers to Phero, MegaGross, MegaMaw, and so on.. and all these answers can be slammed by Greninja. Literally. Whether it's using these mons to break holes through the opponent's team to the point where ninja can just sweep, or using ninja to aid the sweep of something like mosa, volc, or whatever - there is literally no ninja set that you can't find to benefit your team (as far as I know and from my experience). Besides stall, which you can try and offensively overwhelm with popular partners like Lele + Mosa, there is no matchup where ninja is dead weight because it can adapt to anything.

I also don't buy that it has 4MSS. Sure, you can scout its movepool based on the other mons and it is limited to only 4 moves, but this is easier said than done. Realistically, pivoting around and playing with its moveset will only mean that your team will become weaker and more vulnerable to other mons, especially with hazards. Nothing can defog/spin on this thing either.

Then there's the problem that from preview, you could also be dealing with specs ash-ninja, which is also ridicously hard to counter. I mean, people thought Hoopa-U was bad last gen, and then this thing shows up with better coverage and priority as well. Ash-ninja's seen plenty of talk and I don't have much time tho, so that should suffice. Specs hits everything hard, especially with darks (and things like Clef) taking a major hit.

I know not everything is good for ninja and a lot of my points are a product of the power creep that came this gen instead of ninja itself. I just really don't see any drawbacks of using it 95% of the time, especially paired up with mosa, as the two are insanely hard to counter. A lot of this stuff is theoretical and on paper as well, but you get the general gist. Apologies being unorganized and having points all over the place lol, but I'm really curious to hear from someone who thinks that ninja helps the current meta.

 

[Kav]

4MSS is a pretty meaningless thing to call a downside anyway since all that means is that it has more than 4 viable threatening moves. its not like its competing with anything that can actually cover the entire game in 4 moveslots.

 

[13_luckynumber]

Protean-Greninja does have 3 counters when it comes to the definition of a counter though: SpDef Celesteela (which don't even need to be max Hp/ max SpD); chansey and AV magearna. (And the definition i know is that a) only 3HKO after rocks and b) can kill Greninja)

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower
- Protect

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave

Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Aura Sphere

and honorable mention for Porygon2 on those trick room teams on the ladderl even its offensive set counters Greninja. (not that Greninja is of any threat to trick room teams)

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Trick Room
- Tri Attack
- Recover

 

[Leo]

Protean-Greninja does have 3 counters when it comes to the definition of a counter though: SpDef Celesteela (which don't even need to be max Hp/ max SpD); chansey and AV magearna. (And the definition i know is that a) only 3HKO after rocks and b) can kill Greninja)

Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Leech Seed
- Heavy Slam
- Flamethrower
- Protect

Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave

Magearna @ Assault Vest
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Aura Sphere

and honorable mention for Porygon2 on those trick room teams on the ladderl even its offensive set counters Greninja. (not that Greninja is of any threat to trick room teams)

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Trick Room
- Tri Attack
- Recover

The rare max atk Low Kick Ninja set 2HKOs all of these bar Chansey iirc, so you still aren't safe unless you've scouted its set already. These also don't stop it from setting Spikes and being annoying

 

[drakylon]

HP Fire is also a thing, and was found on approximately 51% of Greninja above 1695 elo in February according to the moveset stats.

Magearna isn't an entirely reliable counter to Greninja, as it takes ~35% from Protean LO HP Fire, and deals 70.8% max to a Fire-type Greninja (even assuming Naive) with Fleur Cannon. That, plus it doesn't have reliable recovery and cannot even hope to stand against Greninja if its AV has been knocked off. Granted Greninja does trade most of its life to KO a full health Magearna.

Celesteela can also have trouble standing up to Greninja. HP Fire deals almost enough damage to 2HKO it (and has a .4% chance to 2HKO if rocks are up and Steela doesn't Protect for extra recovery), meaning if Celesteela is at all chipped it'll fall to Greninja. Furthermore Celesteela doesn't have very reliable recovery, so it can't easily stall out Greninja. Furthermore, neither Heavy Slam nor Flamethrower deal much damage to Water or Fire-type Greninja (37.5% max for the former).

Calcs

252+ SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Greninja (Fire): 171-202 (60 - 70.8%)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 133-156 (36.6 - 42.9%)

0 Atk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 90-107 (31.5 - 37.5%)
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 156-187 (39.1 - 46.9%)

tk Celesteela Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 90-107 (31.5 - 37.5%)

 

[Celticpride]

Will be posting a new thread post suspect. Stay tuned.