At the very least Bronzong and Slowbro should be ranked the same (i.e. Slowbro should not be ranked above Bronzong). Out of the threats listed that Bronzong can't handle, Slowbro also cannot handle any of them safely, and Slowbro is also unable to handle Tapu Lele, Mageanra, and Tapu Bulu (it also can't handle Z-Mence/Lando-T depending on the moves, and Thunderpunch Mega Metagross if hazards are up).
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Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
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Hi! My second post on the site and would appreciate feedback if this is all really dumb, I've been reading some discussions and watching replays but I still need practice with playing.
First I'm not sure Tapu Lele is doing all that well anymore and it seems like everything's really evolved against it. I know it was S like 2 weeks ago but now it doesn't seem to measure up that well against other A+ pokemon like Celesteela which seems really good on most teams and Ash Greninja which is terrifying. I get its Psychic attacks hit insanely hard but psychic is a kind of bad offensive typing with so many steels around and other pokemon that threaten it. Greninja can switch in and kill it with Gunk shot since Tapu Lele has bad physical bulk. Also Mega Metagross laughs Tapu Lele. Those are 2 of the S tier pokemon. Meanwhile other choice scarf pokemon especially Gengar and Keldeo are becoming more popular. They're faster which and while lacking the insane power of Tapu Lele's psychic attacks they have much better offensive coverage especially Gengar which not much can switch into. Mega Scizor's also becoming popular again, and beats Tapu Lele even without Bullet Punch, so psychic terrain doesn't really do that much good (although I'm unsure about this).
I'm honestly just not sure that it has a massive role to play anymore. In general terrains seem to be less and less important which is why the other tapus have been sliding down the rankings. IMO Tapu Lele is suffers similar to Tapu Bulu, it hits like a nuke but struggles to make full use of that, and gets worn down and pressured out dead easily. Blocking priority potentially helps some things like Pheramosa but even that seems circumstantial, at least as a justification for such a high ranking. So Tapu Lele to A?
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Also just a point I wanna raise cos I'm new and curious about how the mods are doing the rankings. IMO the viability rankings could represent viable defense-oriented pokemon more than they do, as it seems biased towards offensive types, and this hasn't been very clearly explained.
For example why is Pheramosa so much more highly ranked than Toxapex? They're basically opposites: Pheramosa is really deadly but has almost no defensive use (do people ever rapid spin?); Toxapex sometimes seems unkillable and meanwhile has really limited offense.
(Although even then Toxapex is hardly passive. Scald burns and toxic can be really useful especially with so many physcal attackers around so it can stand up for itself.)
The ranking criteria seem confusing and sometimes arbitrary to me and I would be grateful if there was a better explanation. Seen people say that versatility is what makes a pokemon S-worthy, but Pheramosa has a couple of sets, 3 at most, which all depend on it being fast and attacking hard. Greninja's unpredictable and hard to really counter because of its coverage, but Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, Hydro Pump are all really important to it so it's not like you really have that much scope to just throw a set together randomly. It's job is to go fast and hit hard with good coverage. So while these pokemon are awesome, they have very clear roles in a game, and as the OC says:
'The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.
So for example Tangrowth, Toxapex, Ferrothorn and maybe others could be ranked higher (as high as A+) as defensive threats. They're really good blanket checks that can pretty much be dumped into most teams, countering and checking loads of things, while also offering decent support (Tangrowth especially is great with AV and far from passive, while Ferrothorn is a really great for entry hazards and power whip/Iron Head are decent moves to).
Mega Metagross and Landorus-T are the only pokemon which seem really awesome as both defensive and offensive pokemon, and should probably be S ranked above Greninja and Pheramosa, which seem to more closely fit the criteria of A+ even if they are more dangerous.
These aren't nominations as such, but I think it would be good to talk about :-)
(Sorry if this post is confusing I got confused writing it so would be happy to explain my thinking further!)
First I'm not sure Tapu Lele is doing all that well anymore and it seems like everything's really evolved against it. I know it was S like 2 weeks ago but now it doesn't seem to measure up that well against other A+ pokemon like Celesteela which seems really good on most teams and Ash Greninja which is terrifying. I get its Psychic attacks hit insanely hard but psychic is a kind of bad offensive typing with so many steels around and other pokemon that threaten it. Greninja can switch in and kill it with Gunk shot since Tapu Lele has bad physical bulk. Also Mega Metagross laughs Tapu Lele. Those are 2 of the S tier pokemon. Meanwhile other choice scarf pokemon especially Gengar and Keldeo are becoming more popular. They're faster which and while lacking the insane power of Tapu Lele's psychic attacks they have much better offensive coverage especially Gengar which not much can switch into. Mega Scizor's also becoming popular again, and beats Tapu Lele even without Bullet Punch, so psychic terrain doesn't really do that much good (although I'm unsure about this).
I'm honestly just not sure that it has a massive role to play anymore. In general terrains seem to be less and less important which is why the other tapus have been sliding down the rankings. IMO Tapu Lele is suffers similar to Tapu Bulu, it hits like a nuke but struggles to make full use of that, and gets worn down and pressured out dead easily. Blocking priority potentially helps some things like Pheramosa but even that seems circumstantial, at least as a justification for such a high ranking. So Tapu Lele to A?
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Also just a point I wanna raise cos I'm new and curious about how the mods are doing the rankings. IMO the viability rankings could represent viable defense-oriented pokemon more than they do, as it seems biased towards offensive types, and this hasn't been very clearly explained.
For example why is Pheramosa so much more highly ranked than Toxapex? They're basically opposites: Pheramosa is really deadly but has almost no defensive use (do people ever rapid spin?); Toxapex sometimes seems unkillable and meanwhile has really limited offense.
(Although even then Toxapex is hardly passive. Scald burns and toxic can be really useful especially with so many physcal attackers around so it can stand up for itself.)
The ranking criteria seem confusing and sometimes arbitrary to me and I would be grateful if there was a better explanation. Seen people say that versatility is what makes a pokemon S-worthy, but Pheramosa has a couple of sets, 3 at most, which all depend on it being fast and attacking hard. Greninja's unpredictable and hard to really counter because of its coverage, but Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, Hydro Pump are all really important to it so it's not like you really have that much scope to just throw a set together randomly. It's job is to go fast and hit hard with good coverage. So while these pokemon are awesome, they have very clear roles in a game, and as the OC says:
'The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.
- EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Celesteela can be can also be ranked in A tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples not representative of their future or current ranks.'
So for example Tangrowth, Toxapex, Ferrothorn and maybe others could be ranked higher (as high as A+) as defensive threats. They're really good blanket checks that can pretty much be dumped into most teams, countering and checking loads of things, while also offering decent support (Tangrowth especially is great with AV and far from passive, while Ferrothorn is a really great for entry hazards and power whip/Iron Head are decent moves to).
Mega Metagross and Landorus-T are the only pokemon which seem really awesome as both defensive and offensive pokemon, and should probably be S ranked above Greninja and Pheramosa, which seem to more closely fit the criteria of A+ even if they are more dangerous.
These aren't nominations as such, but I think it would be good to talk about :-)
(Sorry if this post is confusing I got confused writing it so would be happy to explain my thinking further!)
Psychic/Fairy is a very good STAB combination with the addition of Fire/Fighting coverage. Greninja will never switch into Lele unless you're some type of higher being. Scarf Lele has fell way off because the main niche of Lele is an extremely good Balance/Stall breaker. Scizor also doesn't beat Lele assuming it's HP fire and even then Psychic does a shit ton.
Terrains (Psychic in particular) still play a huge role in this meta. With effect of boosting It's own power and the possible teammate of Metagross (which is a banworthy pokemon) while ALSO stopping priority for frail but strong. The stopping priority part is also relevant still with the addition of Mega Mawile, which relies on sucker punch to get many of its kills.
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I'm not gonna comment on the ranking part cause someone better qualified will do a better job. But there some points you made that I have problems with.
Mosa needs no defensive utility because of its sheer ability to A.) sweep teams B.) wall break C.) clean late game D.) revenge kill. It's top 3 in all of these categories while still being extremely splashable. Yes, people run rapid spin. When the only good hazard removal in the tier is Tapu Fini, Sash/Scarf Drill, and Mosa you make due with what you have. On the subject of pheromosa.
It has about 5 separate sets: Scarf, Specs, Spin, Sash and can use 3 different zMoves viably. All of these are extremely good and requires no support to put on a team.
Nothing else you said is necessarily wrong but a few things here and there that I'm sure others could clear up for you.
The reason Offensive Pokemon are ranked higher than defensive ones is because typically most team archetypes (with the notable exception of stall) only need 1 or 2 defensive pokemon. The ones that fill the most holes in an average team get higher ranks. Lando-T and Celesteela are the examples of this. I understand they can both run more sets but most of the time they are used for their defence. Offensive pokemon are also more valuable as team members. The easiest way to explain this is usually there will be more offensive options than defensive ones and even more importantly offensive pokemon are more versatile while defensive pokemon usually do similar things and therefore the ones tat do it beast shine more.
Well the reason is actually simple, the console game is itself offensively biased. Offensive mons are stronger, tougher to counter, and have better move options.
What I want to know is if any of the people arguing Beedrill is useless in the meta have even used it. I see a lot of arguments backed by calcs (guys, using Poisonium Phero as a counterexample is kind of absurd because you're literally comparing one Beedrill set to every single Phero set at once) but no anti-Beedrill post has incorporated any sort of replay that shows WHY Beedrill shouldn't be used. In my experience, I've actually had a bunch of fun (and success) pairing Beedrill WITH Pheromosa, as they both really hit hard and provide a lot of momentum. I'm also going to jump on the train that the "takes a mega slot" argument is kind of stupid. You can build a perfectly good team in this meta without the use of a mega; just because a resource is available doesn't mean it NEEDS to be used. If you have a team that covers things that don't require a different Mega to cover, there's absolutely nothing wrong with using Beedrill.
I don't know where Beedrill should be ranked and I am aware that it cannot be discussed yet. However, something that should affect where it gets ranked is the fact that Mega Bee is one-dimensional.
All it does is provide a powerful U-Turn with decent coverage options. Every player, when facing Mega Bee, knows what's coming when they see it, as opposed to most of the meta's top threats, such as Lando, Gren, Phero, Garchomp, Gengar, etc. Obviously Fell Stinger exists but it's mediocre and rarely if ever a serious threat to most teams. I don't intend to comment on whether or not this makes it outclassed by other mons; rather, I want to point out that this is a shortcoming that exists in a vacuum and Mega Bee suffers from it whether or not it is "outclassed".
tl;dr when ranking this don't forget that it's extremely one-demensional
All it does is provide a powerful U-Turn with decent coverage options. Every player, when facing Mega Bee, knows what's coming when they see it, as opposed to most of the meta's top threats, such as Lando, Gren, Phero, Garchomp, Gengar, etc. Obviously Fell Stinger exists but it's mediocre and rarely if ever a serious threat to most teams. I don't intend to comment on whether or not this makes it outclassed by other mons; rather, I want to point out that this is a shortcoming that exists in a vacuum and Mega Bee suffers from it whether or not it is "outclassed".
tl;dr when ranking this don't forget that it's extremely one-demensional
The mega slot argument has never been very solid, and it should never be used as a standalone point. However, in a metagame that is being heavily warped by a certain Pokemon named Metagross that just so happens to be a mega, forgoing the mega slot for something other than Metagross or Scizor (to check Metagross) can be hard to justify. I'd say the Mega argument is perfectly justifiable in some situations, because regardless of how well your team is built around that certain mega, relying a lot on teammates to support a lesser mega instead of just abusing Metagross which is a very self sustainable mega on its own is a valid point. Metagross just offers so much for a wide variety of teams because it's such an amazing Pokemon, and because of that, it has very little opportunity cost compared to most other megas. I'm not saying that something like Beedrill isn't worth using even with proper team support, because it can be, but I disagree with the notion that mega slot competition is irrelevant to a mega's usage and potential success, because it definitely can be, and is a major reason why certain megas get less usage than they realistically should be.
I'd say the Mega Slot argument is valid to some degree. After all, if you could use both Mega Sableye and Mega Venusaur on the same stall team, both would be considered much better, right? But as is you have to choose between one or the other. They don't fulfil the same role, of course they don't, but if one particular Mega is better for your stall team than the other Megas, then the one-mega-per-team restriction simply makes other stall Megas less viable by comparison. Compare to how, say, if you wanted both Slowking and Tangrowth on your stall team (for all I know this could be the shittiest choice in the history of forever; just pulling a random example out my ass), you wouldn't be forced to forego one or the other.
It's certainly an argument that's context- and situation-reliant though and not something that can just be thrown around willy-nilly.
It's certainly an argument that's context- and situation-reliant though and not something that can just be thrown around willy-nilly.
tapu lele should drop a subrank. the omnipresence of metagross in the metagame and losing to it is a trait that reduces the impact a pokemon can have on the match. tapu lele is also hit and miss in many match-ups because of its slow speed and how it has to use specific z-crystals to beat its checks, which has its own problems due to missing coverage or taunt. despite a fairy / psychic typing, i would actually say that it provides very little defensive synergy because it cannot switch in to much in the current metagame without taking massive damage leaving it ineffective at doing its job later in the match. choice specs sets don't have many switch-ins but it faces the same issues like the aoa sets against offense. i used to bash people for thinking about another tapu lele drop but it's pretty clear that it's not at the level of pokemon such as ash greninja, celesteela, and zygarde chilling in the same rank.
no idea what's with this beedrill boner because it's a shitty pheromosa. the only thing it has over pheromosa is it can one shot tapu fini (ebelt/lo pjab still does a ton) and gengar. niche? sure. then you realize it gets walled by landorus-t, which is practically on every team. beedrill often comes in to uturn and it has little use in the metagame. all y'all looking like fools trying to justify this ass mon so open your eyes and please stop having a boner over it.
no idea what's with this beedrill boner because it's a shitty pheromosa. the only thing it has over pheromosa is it can one shot tapu fini (ebelt/lo pjab still does a ton) and gengar. niche? sure. then you realize it gets walled by landorus-t, which is practically on every team. beedrill often comes in to uturn and it has little use in the metagame. all y'all looking like fools trying to justify this ass mon so open your eyes and please stop having a boner over it.
I personally thought that we were done with the entirety of Mega Evolution Slot arguments last gen. We know it's something heavy that a player has to consider when building a team and that there's only one of them per team, so you have to plan accordingly. As Kurona had pointed out, mega evolutions in general would be better if you could run more than 1, k?
Seeing Mega Mawile back made me extraordinarily happy (I smashed Battle Maison with a team consisting of Bulky DD Gyarados, Agility LO Diggersby, and SubPunch Mega Mawile, so bite me), as my past experience with it has been nothing but positive. It's probs not the best mon to use in this current meta, tho; with Landorus-T, Psychic Terrain, Ferrothorn/Garchomp, Heatran, and Toxapex running around the tier, it's difficult for the trap to get out and running, therefore requiring quite a bit of team support to get running properly. Toxapex in particular gets a special mention for being a straight up counter, threatening Mawile with a burn from Scald and Recovering any and all damage, while a very particular Pokemon has been a Ferrothorn in her side.
Okay, I'll leave.
Is Mega Mawile still powerful? Undoubtedly. The problem is that more Pokemon exist to makes its life much harder nowadays. The meta is much stronger on both the offensive AND defensive spectrums, meaning that Offense can just sweep through with little worry (Pheromosa can survive a Sucker Punch with roughly 50% HP left and finish off any Mega Mawile at 78.5% guaranteed) and Defense can just stall it out (the aforementioned Toxapex and Ferrothorn). I'd go into more calculations and show the vs on the top ranked Pokemon, but I have work in 20 minutes. I'll post more about it when I have the time. For now, though, I honestly see Mega Mawile somewhere around A-/B+ due to its lack of speed and good, but not great, bulk.
Seeing Mega Mawile back made me extraordinarily happy (I smashed Battle Maison with a team consisting of Bulky DD Gyarados, Agility LO Diggersby, and SubPunch Mega Mawile, so bite me), as my past experience with it has been nothing but positive. It's probs not the best mon to use in this current meta, tho; with Landorus-T, Psychic Terrain, Ferrothorn/Garchomp, Heatran, and Toxapex running around the tier, it's difficult for the trap to get out and running, therefore requiring quite a bit of team support to get running properly. Toxapex in particular gets a special mention for being a straight up counter, threatening Mawile with a burn from Scald and Recovering any and all damage, while a very particular Pokemon has been a Ferrothorn in her side.
Okay, I'll leave.
Is Mega Mawile still powerful? Undoubtedly. The problem is that more Pokemon exist to makes its life much harder nowadays. The meta is much stronger on both the offensive AND defensive spectrums, meaning that Offense can just sweep through with little worry (Pheromosa can survive a Sucker Punch with roughly 50% HP left and finish off any Mega Mawile at 78.5% guaranteed) and Defense can just stall it out (the aforementioned Toxapex and Ferrothorn). I'd go into more calculations and show the vs on the top ranked Pokemon, but I have work in 20 minutes. I'll post more about it when I have the time. For now, though, I honestly see Mega Mawile somewhere around A-/B+ due to its lack of speed and good, but not great, bulk.
I wouldn't call Toxapex a "straight up counter" to Mega Mawile, as the former only has an approximately 30% chance (ignoring random hax such as crits and misses) to beat the latter if Mawile Swords Dances on the switch and rocks are up:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 150-177 (49.3 - 58.2%)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 75-88 (24.6 - 28.9%)
Whereas
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 55-66 (22.8 - 27.3%)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power burned Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 75-88 (24.6 - 28.9%)
Whereas
0 SpA Toxapex Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 55-66 (22.8 - 27.3%)
One +2 Play Rough and two +2 burned Play Roughs will always kill Toxapex (300 damage minimum, and Toxapex has 306 max health), so the latter needs a first-turn burn after the switch-in in order to even have a chance at survival. Haze won't do anything as a +0 Play Rough is just as strong as a +2 burned Play Rough. Furthermore, +0 Thunder Punch will always 2HKO Toxapex, even if Rocks are not up, and Mawile can opt to Iron Head for flinches instead if it's running the move. +2 Sucker Punch is also a clean 2HKO, though Mawile is faster than Pex anyway. If it for some reason runs it, +2 Knock Off plus +2 burned Knock Off is also a clean 2HKO, even without SR. And if Misty Terrain is up, forget about Toxapex being even a check.
I feel like there's simply too many cases (and significant percentage cases, not crit/flinch hax ones) where Toxapex can just outright die to Mawile for it to be considered a hard counter.
Mawile learns Thunder Punch which 2HKOs Toxapex:
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Sets like Play Rough / Sucker Punch / Fire Fang* / Thunder Punch are pretty good, as well as SD / Play Rough / Thunder Punch / Sucker Punch but Knock over TPunch is maybe even better. Thunder Punch is essentially standard on Mega Mawile right now because otherwise yeah Toxapex sorta just walls the hell out of you. So no, Toxapex is not a counter to Mega Mawile, but it does impact Mawile's presence on the metagame by making TPunch more common which makes other mons more likely to annoy Mawile
* not Fire Punch lol my bad
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 168-198 (55.2 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Sets like Play Rough / Sucker Punch / Fire Fang* / Thunder Punch are pretty good, as well as SD / Play Rough / Thunder Punch / Sucker Punch but Knock over TPunch is maybe even better. Thunder Punch is essentially standard on Mega Mawile right now because otherwise yeah Toxapex sorta just walls the hell out of you. So no, Toxapex is not a counter to Mega Mawile, but it does impact Mawile's presence on the metagame by making TPunch more common which makes other mons more likely to annoy Mawile
* not Fire Punch lol my bad
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and who is the other mins that annoy Thunder Punch Mega Mawile?
Nitpick, but Mawile does not learn Fire Punch, though it does learn Fire Fang.
Running Thunder Punch means you're probably forgoing either Knock Off or Fire Fang so Ferrothorn will have an easy time against you. Mega Venu, Amoonguss too since they can also Leech seed, Spore you. If you forgoing either Sucker or SD then there are a lot more things i think
So it's a lot easier to deal with Mega Mawile now, right? She has some notable checks (soft and hard)
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
I wanna build around it being the eviliest rock settler we have ever seen seeing how it can body mega sableye turn 1 better than any other setter.
I'm also not convinced You shouldn't be using mega meta if You want deadly coverage and to not be walled by Toxapex/heatran
The power difference is big but so is the speed and viable team mate options, I think sucker punch, blanket filler move to ease reads(sub/rock/sword dance/baton pass[think banded dugtrio]), play rough and coverage move is the way to go
I'm also not convinced You shouldn't be using mega meta if You want deadly coverage and to not be walled by Toxapex/heatran
The power difference is big but so is the speed and viable team mate options, I think sucker punch, blanket filler move to ease reads(sub/rock/sword dance/baton pass[think banded dugtrio]), play rough and coverage move is the way to go
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I would say yes. MegaMaw is still super strong but it struggles more vs offence now due to the sucker punch nerfed; toxapex, mosa, lele, koko are some new threats that troubles it too.
All of those 'mons you list are 1/2HKO'd by +2 Play Rough or Iron Head, and cannot retaliate effectively aside from HP Fire Venusaur and perhaps Spore/Sleep Powder provided nothing else is already slept:
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 182-215 (50.6 - 59.8%)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 250-294 (58 - 68.2%) (this is not an Amoonguss set, just showcasing Mawile's power)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) (I believe most Ferrothorn run 88+ Def though, especially with rain so prominent)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Iron Head vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 324-382 (90.2 - 106.4%) (If it runs it)
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (73 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 63-75 (26.1 - 31.1%) (assuming 252 neutral Speed Mawile, which I'm pretty sure isn't a thing)
0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 78-94 (32.3 - 39%)
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 108-128 (44.8 - 53.1%) (the only real means of retaliation these walls have against Mawile, and only really because Venusaur's fast)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 250-294 (58 - 68.2%) (this is not an Amoonguss set, just showcasing Mawile's power)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Ferrothorn: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) (I believe most Ferrothorn run 88+ Def though, especially with rain so prominent)
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Iron Head vs. 232 HP / 180+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 324-382 (90.2 - 106.4%) (If it runs it)
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (73 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 63-75 (26.1 - 31.1%) (assuming 252 neutral Speed Mawile, which I'm pretty sure isn't a thing)
0 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 78-94 (32.3 - 39%)
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mawile-Mega: 108-128 (44.8 - 53.1%) (the only real means of retaliation these walls have against Mawile, and only really because Venusaur's fast)
Though, considering the current meta, I think Play Rough/Sucker Punch/Knock Off/Swords Dance is the best M-Mawile set to use right now. Fairy/Dark coverage is honestly amazing, and Mawile really doesn't need to hit things super-effectively to seriously dent them, especially at +2. Mawile is also deceptively tanky, able to withstand a lot of hard hits.
In Ferrothorn's, you need to Leech Seed, then Protect stall for recovery without attacking bc Sucker. Ferrothorn wins usually 1v1 i think; at least in games I've played.
Amoonguss absolutely has to Spore then either HP Fire or switch into sth else to pressure; Mega-Venu is shaky but between Leech seed, HP Fire and Synthesis, it can hold on against mega maw for at least a turn to cripple it. These 2 usually trade 1-1 with maw.
Obviously, MegaMaw packs too much power for any defensive mon to win comfortably; base 259 atk is scary.
The problem I have with this argument is that Mega Sableye, despite the bad 2 nerfs it received this generation*, still offers the invaluable support of Magic Bounce.
For now, what redeems Mega Venusaur is the fack OU is filled with Fairy types, despite some of these have Psychic moves to get rid of Mega Venusaur itself.
Not only Mega Venusaur receives competition from Mega Sableye, but AV Tangrowth, Ferrothorn and Amoonguss are still around and very effective at the moment.
===> it is quite hard to justify a spot for Mega Venusaur without not-Mega Magic Bouncers available in OU. Plain and simple.
Mega-spot competition is really a good argument to be used with so strong options both for Stall and Hyper Offence.
======> Mega Venusaur from A- to B+.
* (1) The lack of a Prankster WoW on the same turn it megaevolves or a Prankster Calm Mind;
(2) The immunity of Dark types to Prankster status (a little random, but you can't use WoW on Mega Gyarados before it uses Substitute).
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I'll stand by a Tapu Lele drop.
Psychic attacks are easily Tapu Lele's main way of hitting hard, for all sets, so predicting a switch in for Greninja (etc.) is easy enough, I've seen a few replays were Greninja (protean or battle bond) get a free switch in because Tapu Lele just isn't very unpredictable: it wouldn't usually play HP fire or even Moonblast to an extent, unless there was a reason to, because of the relative shortage of power
I get that choice Scarf has dropped of like you said, but I'm not totally convinced by its stallbreaker set either. Its speed is average, especially considering how physically frail it is, which means that with a little prediction you can either switch something like Metagross (which is everywhere) in and crush kill it fairly easy or get a free turn. Predicting the right time to put in a powerful mon that can smack it in the face is not that difficult because like I said, Tapu Lele will not play HP Fire unless its already in against a super effective pokemon, because HP fire is really not very powerful. It just seems that having a pokemon that hits INSANELY hard on one move and kind of pretty hard with other moves means it's easy to tell when it'll use coverage and when it won't? Similar to Tapu Bulu which doesn't hit anywhere near as hard outside of Horn Leech and Wood Hammer.
Plus Stall usually runs Dugtrio which easily revenge kills Tapu Lele. So either Tapu Lele is choice locked and stonewalled by a dominant OU threat, or it's a stallbreaker which is slow (relatively) and easy to play around.
And stopping Mawile sucker punch is neat, but Mawile has other nukes, Psychic terrain only lasts for a limited time, and I can't see any reason that you would switch Tapu Lele into Mega Mawile to get the terrain back so even this is pretty situational. Plus Mega Mawile is overshadowed by Mega Scizor and Mega Metagross as a mega like people say, and not necessarily meta-defining enough that blocking one of its moves makes Tapu Lele strong enough to remain on the same tier as: Ash Greninja, which has a difficult to wall stab combination; Celesteela, which is insanely good defensively, and Zygarde which seems a lot less easy to predict between it's choice band, Dragon Dance and coil sets. Even revenge killing it can be difficult since it has Extremespeed and its main attack (Thousand Arrows) has much better coverage than psychic.
I dunno, maybe I'm being really naive but Tapu Lele just doesn't seem that great besides the cute hat :D
Edit: sorry for my grammar and stuff
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Why is gengar ranked so high? It's not even ranked this high in UU, the teir it's currently in. It's way too flimsy, and it's weak to a lot of the offensive types in the current meta, dark and ground being the two worst offenders. It's loss of levitate is really keeping it down (pun intended), and you rarely see a team without earthquake. The only things it has going for it is a special sweep, in which it is easily outdone by Tapu Lele and Greninja, and focus sash destiny bond, which can be predicted and countered fairly easily. There's just no reason it should be in A!
The performance of one mon in one tier does not correlate to how it will perform in another tier. But ultimately, in UU, pursuit is much more popular through Bisharp, Krookodile, Mega Aerodactyl... this means that while Gar can spam attacks almost freely in OU, it's generally stopped before it can get out of hand in UU.
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